Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Nu~]

So, 2 Mewtwos in the top 8, with Wadi beating Zero convincingly.

I smell a good character to discuss.

To be the contrarian here , I kinda wanna discuss mewtwo’s flaws first. There was one weird thing that stood out to me.

How does Mewtwo deal with getting frame trapped to hell and back? Game 5 Wadi Vs. Nairo was brutal, like, Mewtwo looked like an oversized balloon animal. Wadi just could not leave disadvantage while nairo was able to continuously swing buttons in his face. Having a frame 2 airdodge is cool and all but...having a second jump that sends you down(?w?h?y) first means you’re getting comboed a lot harder than a character with your weight should be.

Please tell me I’m wrong though because I ****ing love this character lol. Wadi makes Mewtwo look like the truth. I wish he’d stop rolling back though. His ground movement needs some improvement.

Throw in some wavebounce shadow balls and perfect pivots for better baiting+movement and we’d have an unstoppable monster.

 

[|RK|]

To be the contrarian here , I kinda wanna discuss mewtwo’s flaws first. There was one weird thing that stood out to me.

How does Mewtwo deal with getting frame trapped to hell and back? Game 5 Wadi Vs. Nairo was brutal, like, Mewtwo looked like an oversized balloon animal. Wadi just could not leave disadvantage while nairo was able to continuously swing buttons in his face. Having a frame 2 airdodge is cool and all but...having a second jump that sends you down(?w?h?y) first means you’re getting comboed a lot harder than a character with your weight should be.

Please tell me I’m wrong though because I ****ing love this character lol. Wadi makes Mewtwo look like the truth. I wish he’d stop rolling back though. His ground movement needs some improvement.

Throw in some wavebounce shadow balls and perfect pivots for better baiting+movement and we’d have an unstoppable monster.

As we've said before - great players make it look like their characters have no weaknesses. With WaDi, he typically abuses his incredible neutral as a player to ensure he simply doesn't end up in disadvantage.

But at the same time, I think that answers your question - Mewtwo doesn't really have much he can do in those situations. I noticed WaDi doing a lot of confusion stalls to avoid getting hit in the air, but coming down remained an issue.

WaDi actually tweeted about Mewtwo earlier - top 5 tools with the body & weight of a low tier.

 

[The-Technique]

If you're a fair distance away from her, it's sometimes a little harder yes.

However, depending on how many specials Bayonetta has used, she can have upwards of 30 frames of landing lag, up to 43 frames.

Average reaction time for a human is between 13 and 18-ish frames.

Yes, it's not a huge amount of time in reality, but it's absolutely reactable.

As a Bayonetta player myself, the hardest thing when you have to land on stage with the landing lag is landing beside a player who simply holds shield. That way, even if I want to land on them with a Nair or something, it's fruitless.

And as an aside, these things only really apply for if the player being combo'd pops out of the combo before Bayonetta can follow up. That way, they're likely already on the ground before she is. It's different if she uses Witch Twist OoS (and you miss punishing that) followed by a ABK to escape. That's 26 frames of landing lag. Still huge on landing lag terms, but the player may not be totally ready for it.

Holding shield next to Bayo after she uses her specials is such a good tactic that it still amazes me how many players fall for her d-air/Witch Time mixup before she actually touches the ground. Hit the witch when her feet touch the ground, never before.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Depending on the stage, M2 can try Teleport edge cancels, but yeah, it's tough to get down. Hail Mary Nair/Dair and Confusions/Shadow Ball charge to stagger your movement are usually your best bets. One thing that's notable about WaDi is that he frequently retreats to the ledge and goes from there, and he's very tricky with Shadow Ball's momentum stop. Aba tends to favor edge cancels, but they're high risk. I've seen him lose stocks/games against Larry for missing edge cancels at dangerous percents.

If only Teleport had less end lag. Or if you could act out of it. No, that way lies madness.

On another topic: if Cloud's not solo viable, is anyone? I really don't see much of anything that puts Bayo ahead of him. Maybe she has a better matchup spread if she camps to the max, but I'm not sure. She also can't camp Cloud effectively, in my opinion.

 

[The-Technique]

On another topic: if Cloud's not solo viable, is anyone? I really don't see much of anything that puts Bayo ahead of him. Maybe she has a better matchup spread if she camps to the max, but I'm not sure. She also can't camp Cloud effectively, in my opinion.

Frame 1 airdodge, multiple up Bs, counter with super lopsided risk vs reward, and no freefall. Bayo ignores the rules and thats part of what makes her the best.

As for solo viability, I would say Diddy, Bayo, Sheik, Rosa, and to a lesser extent ZSS, Mewtwo, Fox, and Mario (while Ally was at his prime) would fit into that category better than Cloud does, at least if we're going by overall results and wins. Players like Nairo and Dabuz might counterpick once in a while, but the majority of their biggest achievements were won on the backs of their respective mains (Nairo double eliminating Zero at smash con, Dabuz beating Nairo TBH7)

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Wait, what is all this talk about Cloud not solo-viable coming from wyen he is still considered top 5

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Hold up, I'm not actually hearing that a character with a incredible combo game, juggle game, is a sword fighter with a massive disjoint that's very powerful but still retains great speed and frame data with a very solid neutral all of which gets augmented to even higher levels from charging, dealing and TAKING damage that also allowed access to a incredibly strong kill move is not solo viable. Because that notion is actually ridiculous.

Cloud is one of if not the most used character in this game, everyone knows or should know the Cloud MU. It's perfectly natural for Cloud to just not work sometimes when your playing someone and they are getting really good at mitigating your strengths and abusing your weaknesses, that doesn't make him not solo viable. Sometimes you just need to try and change of pace.

Edit: Also WaDi probably rolls back alot because M2 has awful options to cover his back, it's one of his most prominent flaws so you'll see M2 players often retreating back to lessen the amount of stage if they get crossed up the opponent has to work with

 

[Krysco]

Cloud being top 5 and also not solo-viable is an idea I could see being possible. I always looked at tier placement being directly related to a characters mu spread, namely thanks to Brawl and how every character is ranked on the tier list in that game from a numerical value made up by adding all of the positive and negative mus that character has together. Cloud, with his high movement, crazy range, generous autocancels and power likely has numerous +3 and possibly even +4 mus vs mid and low tier characters. However, once you get up to the top tiers, those positive numbers likely stop being as frequent (pure theorycraft since I don't know any general agreed upon mu spread for Cloud, nor do I know the personal mu charts from players such as Tweek, MKLeo and...is it Komo that also uses Cloud?). The top tier characters are the ones where a characters mu spread truly matters. Diddy is (or at least was) said to lose to Megaman, Olimar and Luigi but since those characters aren't too terribly common, it hardly matters. A more concrete example that comes to mind is Brawl ICies losing to Peach and Toon Link, mus that hardly mattered since they were uncommon. Admittedly not the best example since everyone barring Pika was said to lose to the best character anyways.

I don't watch tournament matches enough to say whether I agree with the notion or not but if the top Cloud players find themselves switching to other characters more often than the top players of Diddy, Rosa, Sheik, Bayo, ZSS, Mario, Mewtwo, Sonic etc then it either says something about Cloud's mus vs the top tiers or the players comfort in said mus. Could even be a player to player thing.

 

[The-Technique]

Hold up, I'm not actually hearing that a character with a incredible combo game, juggle game, is a sword fighter with a massive disjoint that's very powerful but still retains great speed and frame data with a very solid neutral all of which gets augmented to even higher levels from charging, dealing and TAKING damage that also allowed access to a incredibly strong kill move is not solo viable. Because that notion is actually ridiculous.

Cloud is one of if not the most used character in this game, everyone knows or should know the Cloud MU. It's perfectly natural for Cloud to just not work sometimes when your playing someone and they are getting really good at mitigating your strengths and abusing your weaknesses, that doesn't make him not solo viable. Sometimes you just need to try and change of pace.

Edit: Also WaDi probably rolls back alot because M2 has awful options to cover his back, it's one of his most prominent flaws so you'll see M2 players often retreating back to lessen the amount of stage if they get crossed up the opponent has to work with

Well when you look at the fact that ALL of the best Clouds either co-main or carry multiple secondaries in their sleeves, isn't that the exact opposite of being solo main-able? When did Salem switch off Bayo when winning Evo, or Zero switch off Diddy winning Dreamhack? I'm not saying Cloud isn't top tier, I'm saying he isn't as viable a solo pick as other characters are.

Yes Cloud has the really great numbers and theory, but he falters time and again versus characters he's "supposed" to beat. Why is that?

 

[Pyrover]

Solo-viable is based on matchup spreads.

To say that Cloud isn't solo viable, you have to either present a character who hard-counters him and could consistently end his bracket runs, or show that he has several losing matchups that will make it difficult to play him alone in bracket. Player results have nothing to do with it, especially when most players have secondaries for reasons that don't relate to their mains matchups, or when the secondary might have a winning matchup while the main just goes even.

I can say Ness isn't solo-viable because Rosa and Corrin hard counter him. I can say King Dedede isn't solo-viable because there are many characters that give him a rough time without being hard counters.

When Cloud's only notable losing matchups are Pikachu and Shiek, both of which only have slight advantages, I can say that he is solo-viable. I think most players just want to use a different character sometimes, either for personal preference, because of a player issue, or because they just don't want to worry about his recovery for a couple games.

He's absolutely solo-viable. There's just no reason to be proficient with only one character at top level, or you'll eventually get figured out. Therefore, most of his players have a secondary or two they also like using. It doesn't mean they couldn't place well without the secondaries.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Salem has at times thought of using secondaries, Zack uses Peach and Wii Fit of all characters when Bayo isn't working, Zero will use different characters occasionally when Diddy isn't working. Sometimes your character just isn't going to work for you like you want it to that's totally normal. When you main a relatively easier character to use who everyone should have plenty of experience against that's simply what's going to happen at times. Cloud has no terrible matchups, just because he can't trash fellow top tier characters like he can lower tiers doesn't mean he's not viable it means those are good characters as well that can compete with him on a more even playing field.

Hell you have a Link player in the 2GG championship, a Wario player often wins large tournaments in Europe those are two characters often not thought to be anywhere near as viable as Cloud. Smash 4 is a relatively volatile game with rather smaller learning curves for characters compared to other smash games, I wouldn't look into the fact top clouds use other characters as a indicator of his viability rather those players attempts to mix things up.

 

[TDK]

I mean, when your character has one of the worst and most exploitable recoveries in the game, it only makes sense to have pockets as a failsafe. Doesn't make Cloud any less solo-viable.

 

[The-Technique]

He's absolutely solo-viable. There's just no reason to be proficient with only one character at top level, or you'll eventually get figured out. Therefore, most of his players have a secondary or two they also like using. It doesn't mean they couldn't place well without the secondaries.

You're right, there's no reason to be good with just one character at top level, but it's more common among top Clouds than any other, which I find strange for a character widely perceived as the best of the best.

And yes Salem has talked about working on secondaries but he's nonetheless persevered and succeeded as a Bayo main, same with Zero with his Diddy. Other top tiers have shown greater consistency than Cloud while at the same time falling back on secondaries less often. That's what I mean when I say that Cloud is less solo viable than other top tiers.

I also want to point out that Cloud doesn't trash characters simply because they're lower tier, every matchup operates differently and depends on how each character's tools interact. If being a top tier were all it took to win a matchup then top Clouds wouldn't be 1-4 in sets vs top Shulks.

 

[Lord Dio]

is it Komo that also uses Cloud?

Yes.
I love how the more we see Leo and Tweek fdo well the more komo seems to get overlooked.

Imo, there isn't a single character in this game that is 100% solo viable. The top tier come close, but as long as you have a matchup that could be called losing, something you need a different character for, you're not fully solo-viable.

 

[Deleted member]

Does have no losing match ups? Some sources say she does and some says she does not. Does she have losing match ups?

 

[Minordeth]

Yes.
I love how the more we see Leo and Tweek fdo well the more komo seems to get overlooked.

Imo, there isn't a single character in this game that is 100% solo viable. The top tier come close, but as long as you have a matchup that could be called losing, something you need a different character for, you're not fully solo-viable.

“Needing a different character for”... That’s not simply a losing matchup though, that’s a hard counter. Like worse than 7:3. None of the top tiers have that.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Does have no losing match ups? Some sources say she does and some says she does not. Does she have losing match ups?

Its a popular belief that is a losing MU for Sheik.

 

[T4ylor]

On the topic of Cloud, it makes sense why the top Cloud mains have secondaries, it's because he's an easy character to maintain. Plus the secondaries especially come in handy when it's a lot easier for a top player to have a ton of match up experience against great Cloud mains than vice versa. Sometimes you have to shake things up a little

 

[HoSmash4]

Does have no losing match ups? Some sources say she does and some says she does not. Does she have losing match ups?

She has quite a few matchups which vary from losing to winning depending on how experienced either parties are in the matchup

For example I think sheik beats ryu and Rosalina since I had a ridiculous amount of experience Vs them, but i think ZSS sheik is potentially even, due to observation and not having much personal experience in the matchup

 

[Nu~]

@Peabnut Bubber
I c u lurkin

While you’re here, I’m curious about your opinion on mega man’s viability in the meta. He seems to have dropped off a bit recently which makes me kinda sad.

Like, what do you think Mega Man needs to do to keep up.

(And will aggro Mega Man ever be viable?? )

 

[Frihetsanka]

A new Notable Players' Matchup Chart Compilation has been posted. I tihnk it's a pretty good resource overall.

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/7b0tx4/notable_players_matchup_chart_compilation_v7/

 

[Skeeter Mania]

@Peabnut Bubber
I c u lurkin

While you’re here, I’m curious about your opinion on mega man’s viability in the meta. He seems to have dropped off a bit recently which makes me kinda sad.

Like, what do you think Mega Man needs to do to keep up.

(And will aggro Mega Man ever be viable?? )

As far as I know, MKLeo Saga was Kameme's first US major since SCR Saga, and I can't recall the last large tourney ScAtt attended. It's not like we have that good of a grasp at how things go now.

As far as MUs, perhaps some actual MM mains could fill out notably good (probably still Diddy and Ryu) and notably bad (Fox, Sheik, Pikachu, Mario) MUs.

 

[verbatim]

Mega Man also does really well against sonic and ok against cloud (not wins) because pellets beat out most of their grounded options.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

For top tier MU's

MM does ok vs Diddy but struggles with Fox, Sheik , Bayo and Mario I belive


I am not sure about the MU with Rosa but I think that is slightly losing too

 

[Skeeter Mania]

struggles with Fox, Sheik , Bayo and Mario I belive

And Pikachu if you count him.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I made a thing. Would you mind answering the survey? It will probably relevant here later.

 

[SorenT]

Does anybody else think that Link may be a soft counter for Cloud and along with Links apparent rising competitive and tier wise may be about Cloud's downfall.

 

[ARGHETH]

Does anybody else think that Link may be a soft counter for Cloud and along with Links apparent rising competitive and tier wise may be about Cloud's downfall.

Is there any results to go with this?
Like, have T or Scizor been beating top Clouds lately or something?

 

[Guido65]

Does anybody else think that Link may be a soft counter for Cloud and along with Links apparent rising competitive and tier wise may be about Cloud's downfall.

Not that he's a soft counter to cloud but most top links to my knowledge think the mu is either just -1 or even from what I know. Well I recall Tsage thinking it's actually fine for link and he has played MattyG before + New England has a lot of clouds, and EspeonCH thinks it's even and he has some pretty good cloud experience.
https://image.prntscr.com/image/Rb97ufnqRiCWVsmtGBpJfA.png

 

[TDK]

Does anybody else think that Link may be a soft counter for Cloud and along with Links apparent rising competitive and tier wise may be about Cloud's downfall.

Link sucks vs Cloud and it's probably his second-worst matchup behind . I'd say it's -2 and there's no way people would CP Link to beat him.

 

[Guido65]

Link sucks vs Cloud and it's probably his second-worst matchup behind . I'd say it's -2 and there's no way people would CP Link to beat him.

Cloud his second worst? That's the first time I've really heard that the mu was that bad. Most of the ones I talk to think the mu is fine so May be it could be just a player issue.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I made a thing. Would you mind answering the survey? It will probably relevant here later.

What region would KY be considered?

 

[Y2Kay]

What region would KY be considered?

US Southeast?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

US Southeast?

Smash region?

 

[The-Technique]

Does anybody else think that Link may be a soft counter for Cloud and along with Links apparent rising competitive and tier wise may be about Cloud's downfall.

its hard to say, not really much data to go on honestly. as far as counters go Link doesn't strike me as one of them vs Cloud, but IMO the matchup doesnt seem that terrible for Link if played properly

the nice thing about Link's tether grab, besides his z-air, is that its really good for catching where your opponent is going to land, and on top of that Link himself has good anti-airs and zoning tools.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Smash region?

Feel free to only type "KY", I have all kinds of crazy answers already, so I'll get a lot of manual work once I compile the info anyway.

 

[Minordeth]

Link does have good anti-airs and zones reasonably well. He also hits like a truck and has pretty safe aerials. None of this saves him from Cloud though, especially with Limit on board.

Link struggles when he can’t keep opponents at that sweet, sweet mid range. It’s why Sheik is awful - she can bypass most of his game plan. Bayo can’t even do that to Link. But Cloud, with some of the best overall mobility in the game, quick aerials, and hilarious juggle game, can bypass Link’s game almost as well as Sheik can.

As a side note, Link is not a good counterpick character. He takes way too much effort to be good with that could otherwise go into a character with a more intuitive game plan.

As a side, side note: very few characters in this game are actually good “pockets.” Bowser, DK, and Mario are about it. And really, in this game, when people counter pick, they are really just picking characters that their opponent tends to struggle with, or choosing secondaries based on how they feel their main is “working.”

Like, really, you are gonna CP your pocket Cloud versus Dabuz?

Only Anti really occasionally tries to CP on the MU level and he gets mixed results.

 

[verbatim]

Mr R. beat Dabuz with his secondary Cloud. He had a really interesting point (he might of actually said it in this thread) about how he had practiced the Cloud vs Rosa matchup extensively with Kirihara in Japan, but since it wasn't streamed everyone assumed it was just a pocket, when in fact he had put the time and the work in to do well with it.

 

[|RK|]

Link does have good anti-airs and zones reasonably well. He also hits like a truck and has pretty safe aerials. None of this saves him from Cloud though, especially with Limit on board.

Link struggles when he can’t keep opponents at that sweet, sweet mid range. It’s why Sheik is awful - she can bypass most of his game plan. Bayo can’t even do that to Link. But Cloud, with some of the best overall mobility in the game, quick aerials, and hilarious juggle game, can bypass Link’s game almost as well as Sheik can.

As a side note, Link is not a good counterpick character. He takes way too much effort to be good with that could otherwise go into a character with a more intuitive game plan.

As a side, side note: very few characters in this game are actually good “pockets.” Bowser, DK, and Mario are about it. And really, in this game, when people counter pick, they are really just picking characters that their opponent tends to struggle with, or choosing secondaries based on how they feel their main is “working.”

Like, really, you are gonna CP your pocket Cloud versus Dabuz?

Only Anti really occasionally tries to CP on the MU level and he gets mixed results.

I would go so far as saying that DK/Bowser are the only really good pocket characters. Mario suffers from way too much to be a good pocket. I think it's a little more than just good fundamentals needed, considering how the meta has adapted to Mario.

 

[Minordeth]

Mr R. beat Dabuz with his secondary Cloud. He had a really interesting point (he might of actually said it in this thread) about how he had practiced the Cloud vs Rosa matchup extensively with Kirihara in Japan, but since it wasn't streamed everyone assumed it was just a pocket, when in fact he had put the time and the work in to do well with it.

That’s actually a good example of how far you need to train in order for a counter pick to be legit. Mr. R had to train with the second best Rosa in the world in order to go last game, last stock with Dabuz, in an MU that is traditionally seen as maybe 6:4 for Rosa.

It also furthers my point in that true counter picks, as in, hard counters, are exceedingly rare in this game and that the idea of a “pocket” rarely works out. Look no further than Anti’s Cloud vs Dabuz from last year.

I would go so far as saying that DK/Bowser are the only really good pocket characters. Mario suffers from way too much to be a good pocket. I think it's a little more than just good fundamentals needed, considering how the meta has adapted to Mario.

Yeah, I was going to put “maybe” in front of Mario, but since he seems to be a traditional pocket through out mid and high level play, I decided to stick with it. But really, at top level, you can’t really pull out your 50 hour Mario and expect results.