Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[The-Technique]

Lima 3-1 Kirahara


Is it just that Dabuz is godlike in the MU that he beats so many Bayo'?

I think saying he's godlike at the matchup is an overstatement, he's probably one of the few players that bother to learn it to begin with. Kirirhara's SDI was extra sus especially in game 4.

 

[Lord Dio]

man larry kinda got murdered
It's strange how he had trouble keeping up with a character almost as fast as sonic, guess he just couldn't get past the spindash.....

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well Lima and KEN face off again in top 8. KEN said he is really starting to hate the Bayo MU, but maybe he can adapt in the runback

 

[The-Technique]

Yikes, Nairo's bracket looks like death. First he has to beat Abadango, and then the loser of Leo vs Wadi. Worst case scenario, he'll have to fight KEN after that, but KEN has had a poor record against Bayo this tournament so that seems unlikely. Lima will be pretty free for Nairo, so potentially his final challenge will be vs Tweek.

Also after watching these matches, I think ZSS's ladder combos are a bit more potent compared to Bayo's.

 

[|RK|]

Kirihara is very good at capitalising his advantage state, but Dabuz plays more patient and focused on the Neutral.
Given Bayo's nature, I think it's quite evident which style is more effective against her.

Honestly, I feel like Bayo in general isn't as effective against Dabuz's style as a player. He's highly knowledgeable, and studies each of his opponents in depth - so he's less likely to be unprepared against any style of Bayo. He doesn't have the best reactions, and instead relies on reads - so Fox's neutral pressure is harder for him, but Bayo doesn't have the same ability to mess up his timings in neutral.

 

[Deleted member]

is the best character for sure, but not overpowered like .

 

[The-Technique]

Wadi is definitely the best Mewtwo as of right now.

 

[|RK|]

is the best character for sure, but not overpowered like .

I feel like of all the possible combinations of OP states, Bayo is the most tame. OP advantage and disadvantage, with solid neutral.

Comparatively, OP neutral and advantage with solid disadvantage would be obnoxious (pre-patch Sheik) and OP neutral and disadvantage would be actual hell (idk if any character has this in any game).

 

[Yonder]

So, 2 Mewtwos in the top 8, with Wadi beating Zero convincingly.

I smell a good character to discuss.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I've used Mewtwo and have considered him as a serious secondary to go with my zard. With zard I really struggle but the only time I used mewtwo I breezed through my fights without hardly even trying. (So even though I adore my zard I'm actually better with mewtwo)

 

[ARISTOS]

DK is an abomination

 

[The-Technique]

Winner's Finals with only DK and Meta Knight played, what a strange game we play.

 

[ARGHETH]

And Nairo has a Corrin now lol

 

[The-Technique]

And Nairo has a Corrin now lol

Nairo can play about 3/4s of the cast with decent proficiency, plus he plays around with Cosmos on a regular basis.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Welp, the curse lives on. MKLeo out at 3rd

 

[TDK]

2GGC: MKLeo Saga (311 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Tweek
2nd: KEN
3rd: MKLeo
4th: Nairo
5th: Dabuz
5th: WaDi
7th: Abadango
7th: Lima
9th: Kirihara
9th: Larry Lurr
9th: Salem
9th: Mr. R
13th: Captain L
13th: Tsu-
13th: K9Sbruce
13th: ZeRo
17th: Captain Zack
17th: Ned
17th: VoiD
17th: HIKARU
17th: Samsora
17th: ESAM
17th: Elegant
17th: Javi
25th: Kameme
25th: Raito
25th: JK
25th: Komorikiri
25th: Ac
25th: MVD
25th: Zinoto
25th: Marss

Also, can we talk about KEN's losers run? from losing in pools, he beat:

T 3-2
Raito 3-2
Elegant 3-0
Captain L 3-0
Larry Lurr 3-0
Got his revenge on Lima 3-1
Dabuz 3-0
Nairo 3-1
MKLeo 3-2

before finally falling to Tweek.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So Tweek won his first S-tier event and he did not even use his main in Winners and Grand Finals. Lolz


Yea I wonder if KEN is going to pick up a secondary JUST for the Bayo MU ad he seems to be kinda hinting

 

[The-Technique]

So Tweek won his first S-tier event and he did not even use his main in Winners and Grand Finals. Lolz


Yea I wonder if KEN is going to pick up a secondary JUST for the Bayo MU ad he seems to be kinda hinting

Well its not so much that Tweek didn't "have" to use Cloud against the players he fought but more like had no other option, seeing how Leo dominates the Cloud ditto and KEN is about 100:0 vs top Clouds.

 

[Laken64]

So Tweek won his first S-tier event and he did not even use his main in Winners and Grand Finals. Lolz


Yea I wonder if KEN is going to pick up a secondary JUST for the Bayo MU ad he seems to be hinting on

This attests to how amazing KEN is, the last time Tweek went Cloud against KEN he straight up dissected Tweeks cloud. KEN is the absolute best in the Cloud mu and when you force the two best cloud players in the WORLD off their main just to find another way to beat you, you know they're terrified of you and how optimally you play the mu and expose every single weakness their character has to the fullest. KEN is top 10 free of charge and the best in the cloud mu by far.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Well its not so much that Tweek didn't "have" to use Cloud against the players he fought but more like had no other option, seeing how Leo dominates the Cloud ditto and KEN is about 100:0 vs top Clouds.

I guess you can call KEN the "Cloud Killer " of this game. In the same vein that Salem is the Sonic Killer and Dabuz is the Bayo killet


True I guess, Tweaks Bayo is actullay looking pretty dang solid. According to the announcers he has been getting tips from Salem.

I wonder why MKLeo used MK vs Tweeks DK. I mean Cloud can have some difficulties vs grapplers but he does not outright lose vs them

 

[ShadowGuy1]

True I guess, Tweaks Bayo is actullay looming pretty dang solid. According to th
I wonder why MKLeo went MK vs Tweeks DK. I mean Cloud can have some difficulties vs grapplers but he does not outright lose vs them

Everytjme Leo has went Cloud vs Tweek he has gotten demolished. I think MK might do better overall than Cloud in the MU (at least vs Tweek)

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Also the Bayo MU really seems to be fairly bad for Sonic . As amazing as player as KEN is he has a poor record vs Bayo in Majors outside of Japan. Both his losses at MKLeo were to Bayos after all

 

[The-Technique]

Unrelated, but I think its crazy that T, a solo Link main, is basically a shoe in for the upcoming Championship series. Props to him.

 

[TDK]

Here's who's in the Championship Series:

Qualified by winning at least one Saga:
ZeRo
Dabuz
Ally
Salem
Tweek

14 of the remaining 15 spots go to the players with the highest point totals that didn't win a Saga, which would be:
Komorikiri
Nairo
MKLeo
KEN
Fatality
Larry Lurr
VoiD
T
Shuton
Captain Zack
Abadango
Kirihara
Samsora
WaDi (?)

The remaining spot can be won by someone at a last chance qualifier the day of the event.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

2GGC: MKLeo Saga (311 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Tweek
2nd: KEN
3rd: MKLeo
4th: Nairo
5th: Dabuz
5th: WaDi
7th: Abadango
7th: Lima
9th: Kirihara
9th: Larry Lurr
9th: Salem
9th: Mr. R
13th: Captain L
13th: Tsu-
13th: K9Sbruce
13th: ZeRo
17th: Captain Zack
17th: Ned
17th: VoiD
17th: HIKARU
17th: Samsora
17th: ESAM
17th: Elegant
17th: Javi
25th: Kameme
25th: Raito
25th: JK
25th: Komorikiri
25th: Ac
25th: MVD
25th: Zinoto
25th: Marss

Also, can we talk about KEN's losers run? from losing in pools, he beat:

T 3-2
Raito 3-2
Elegant 3-0
Captain L 3-0
Larry Lurr 3-0
Got his revenge on Lima 3-1
Dabuz 3-0
Nairo 3-1
MKLeo 3-2

before finally falling to Tweek.

It might have been a small tournament, but don't you think you could extend as far as Top 48 (or even Top 64) for a freaking S+ tier tourney?

 

[Rizen]

I wonder why MKLeo used MK vs Tweeks DK. I mean Cloud can have some difficulties vs grapplers but he does not outright lose vs them

Doesn't MK have a really good MU vs DK because of ladder stuff?

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Here's who's in the Championship Series:

Qualified by winning at least one Saga:
ZeRo
Dabuz
Ally
Salem
Tweek

14 of the remaining 15 spots go to the players with the highest point totals that didn't win a Saga, which would be:
Komorikiri
Nairo
MKLeo
KEN
Fatality
Larry Lurr
VoiD
T
Shuton
Captain Zack
Abadango
Kirihara
Samsora
ONE OF Mr. R or WaDi (They have the same amount of points for the last spot)

The remaining spot can be won by someone at a last chance qualifier the day of the event.

It’s gonna be WaDi since according to the rule thing, it said that if people were tied, the first thing to determine what breaks the tie would be their highest placing at a Saga which was WaDi today.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

2GGC: MKLeo Saga (311 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Tweek
2nd: KEN
3rd: MKLeo
4th: Nairo
5th: Dabuz
5th: WaDi
7th: Abadango
7th: Lima
9th: Kirihara
9th: Larry Lurr
9th: Salem
9th: Mr. R
13th: Captain L
13th: Tsu-
13th: K9Sbruce
13th: ZeRo
17th: Captain Zack
17th: Ned
17th: VoiD
17th: HIKARU
17th: Samsora
17th: ESAM
17th: Elegant
17th: Javi
25th: Kameme
25th: Raito
25th: JK
25th: Komorikiri
25th: Ac
25th: MVD
25th: Zinoto
25th: Marss

Also, can we talk about KEN's losers run? from losing in pools, he beat:

T 3-2
Raito 3-2
Elegant 3-0
Captain L 3-0
Larry Lurr 3-0
Got his revenge on Lima 3-1
Dabuz 3-0
Nairo 3-1
MKLeo 3-2

before finally falling to Tweek.

It’s gonna be WaDi since according to the rule thing, it said that if people were tied, the first thing to determine what breaks the tie would be their highest placing at a Saga which was WaDi today.

Are you sure?

 

[|RK|]

Are you sure?

Yeah, the rules say highest placement at a Season Finale gets top priority. I'd double-check with 2GG, but seeing as this got double points - and their other double-points sagas appear to be tied - I think WaDi takes it.

 

[Rizen]

T got 3rd at Civil War, does that count?

 

[Game7a1]

The smash.gg attendee page for the Championship has been updated, as well the Group Format portion of the bracket. So whoever is listed is qualified for the tournament.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

T got 3rd at Civil War, does that count?

T was already qualified because he had enough points because of Civil war and I think West Side Saga.

Also just realized fatality is #10 in the standings and he only went to like 1 2GG

Anyway, here are the groups for Championship Saga

Group A: Zero, Fatality, Larry Lurr, LCQ

Group B: Tweek, Ally , VoiD, WaDi

Group C: Dabuz, KEN, T, Samsora

Group D: Salem, Shuton, MKLeo, Kirihara

Group E: Komorikiri, Nairo, Captain Zack, Abadango

Only two will advance which means losing one set can be enough to knock you out I believe. Wish it was like summit where they all went into bracket but the 3rd and 4th place start in losers.

Pool D is the most interesting one. Kirihara is at a direct disadvantage because he’s not the best vs Bayonetta and he’s against MKLeo as well, but I feel Shuton can take the second or even first slot in that group over Salem and Leo as he has gotten wins on them before.

Also, voting for the smash boot camp nominations starts tommorow where we will nominate people to be up for voting similar to Summit. Personally feel KEN should be given a chance since he’s basically a Top 10 player and I think his recent performance will give him a chance.


EDiT: ignore what I said that only two from the groups get in. I’m not sure about what’s gonna happen.

 

[Guido65]

Group C: Dabuz, KEN, T, Samsora

/QUOTE]

This sounds pretty hard for T but I know he might be able to beat ken since the last few times they've played he's been getting close,dabuz might not be good considering how ugly it looked when they played at Civil War. I can see him beating Samsora though since he does have good peach experience and the fact that the matchup is even(one of the only cases where someone doesn't claim they beat link,both sides think it's even)

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Fair warning. this is going to be a long one about Cloud (and a bit about Bayo) in the meta


So about Cloud, as strong and apparnelty solo-viable as he is in this game. We often see many of the top Cloud mains (MKLeo, Tweek, Komo) use one or more of thier secondaries use pretty often in Majors. Tweek had to use both his DK and Bayo secondaries to win MKLeo saga agaiant players who are experts in the Cloud MU and have soundly beaten his Cloud before.



Some people have questioned Clouds solo viability becuase of this. Personally I think that it is the similar situation to Bayo. In that Cloud is so strong and threatening that other players have HAD to learn the MU with there own mains and develop stratgies and methods to counter Cloud (and Bayo) even if they main a character that it though to "lose the MU" a good example being KEN who dissects any Cloud he faces with his Sonic.

Cloud and Bayo can be seen everywhere in major competions becuase they are very strong. any any players have to know how to play against them if they have any hope of making it far in the competitive scene. Top Cloud mains switch to secondaries not so much anymore for the character matchp, but for the player MU if they are very good in the Cloud MU.

This is why I am kinda surprised more Bayo mains are not using secondaries more often. Salem should really consider maybe working more on his ZSS or heck even Greninja vs Dabuz at this point..lol

 

[Lord Dio]

Things I want to address:
Leo went Mkfor the reason eh said tweek was hsi demon in the documentary, tweek beats him in the ditto, jsut like he usually beats komo in the ditto, and how komo beats tweek in the ditto.
ZeRo is still definitely ther "Cloud Killer". He has a better overall track record vs Clouds, and getting someone to switch doesn't mean they're terrified, just that they're not up to fighting you with siad character. Also, how many times has KEN played Tweek and Leo? Twice each?
Btw, there's this player you guys should remember exists and is really really good, his name is komorikiri.
People still swap for the MU, not for the player. Good examples include leo and tweek switchign against ZeRo because it's both a bad player mu and a losing mu for the character, they usually get destroyed when they go Cloud. Komo does too, but he doesn't switch to sonic.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Things I want to address:
Leo went Mkfor the reason eh said tweek was hsi demon in the documentary, tweek beats him in the ditto, jsut like he usually beats komo in the ditto, and how komo beats tweek in the ditto.
ZeRo is still definitely ther "Cloud Killer". He has a better overall track record vs Clouds, and getting someone to switch doesn't mean they're terrified, just that they're not up to fighting you with siad character. Also, how many times has KEN played Tweek and Leo? Twice each?
Btw, there's this player you guys should remember exists and is really really good, his name is komorikiri.
People still swap for the MU, not for the player. Good examples include leo and tweek switchign against ZeRo because it's both a bad player mu and a losing mu for the character, they usually get destroyed when they go Cloud. Komo does too, but he doesn't switch to sonic.

I think ZeRo has lost sets to Cloud 3 times since he was realeased against Mew2King, Ned and Tweek. I may be wrong but i never saw KEN lost once overseas at least. But yea ZeRo has faced the top Cloud users much more often has thus as more victories. I though the Diddy/Cloud MU was around even. ZeRo is just very, very good in the MU

I guess if you want to talk about true character killers. There is Dabuz who has only lost a set to Bayo once , that being Captain Zack. and Salem who I do not think a has lost a set to a Sonic yet

 

[SorenT]

Each character in smash has a certain theory that their play style and players revolve around. For example, Mario's theory is based around waiting for the opponent to use the incorrect options against his neutral tools, like going for a grab after Mario's dair cross-up. then punishing with a 50% grab combo. Rinse and repeat until the opponent falls for an air dodge 50/50 or raw up smash.
The interesting thing about Cloud is that his theory is so strong. Cloud's play style is based around gaining an early lead, gaining stage control and walling off your attempts to gain the stage back with his huge hurt boxes, and then ledgeguarding with those same huge moves.
So, if we are going to attempt to create a game plan against Cloud we should not focus on his weaknesses, but attempting to stop him from abuse his strengths. How I see it, if top players are going to beat Cloud they need to gain an early lead against him and stop him from approaching center stage with active hit boxes or projectiles (Diddy's banana, Shiek's needles, or Link's bomb). This strategy will most likely push Cloud at least a few spots down the tier list in future months.

This is my first post ever by the way

 

[Lord Dio]

I think ZeRo has lost sets to Cloud 3 times since he was realeased against Mew2King, Ned and Tweek. I may be wrong but i never saw KEN lost once overseas at least. But yea ZeRo has faced the top Cloud users much more often has thus as more victories. I though the Diddy/Cloud MU was around even. ZeRo is just very, very good in the MU

I guess if you want to talk about true character killers. There is Dabuz who has only lost a set to Bayo once , that being Captain Zack. and Salem who I do not think a has lost a set to a Sonic yet

M2k was prepatch. Ned, Mr R, and Tweek. But reminder that it's only once for all 4 of those players, and that ZeRo destroys them every time they play Cloud, just liek with komo and leo.
Again, overall track record. ZeRo's played all the top Clouds numerous times before and come out on top, whereas, again, how many times have Tweek and Leo fought KEN now? A shortt-term record doesn't match up tyo ZeRo's logn-term record against Cloud. Though tbh Idk KEN's record agsainst Komo's cloud, which is somethign that should be looked up......
Most people see it as losing last I checked.

Also, yeah., Cloud really shouldn't solo viable anymore.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I do not think MKLeo saga proves that Cloud is not solo viable, but I really hesitate to call it a full legitimate major win for Cloud either .

Can you really say "Tweek won MKleo saga with Cloud" when Tweek did not even use him for Winners and Grand Finals?

 

[Bowserboy3]

the thing is, once you've realised she didn't witchtime it might be too late to react with anything else already.

If you're a fair distance away from her, it's sometimes a little harder yes.

However, depending on how many specials Bayonetta has used, she can have upwards of 30 frames of landing lag, up to 43 frames.

Average reaction time for a human is between 13 and 18-ish frames.

Yes, it's not a huge amount of time in reality, but it's absolutely reactable.

As a Bayonetta player myself, the hardest thing when you have to land on stage with the landing lag is landing beside a player who simply holds shield. That way, even if I want to land on them with a Nair or something, it's fruitless.

And as an aside, these things only really apply for if the player being combo'd pops out of the combo before Bayonetta can follow up. That way, they're likely already on the ground before she is. It's different if she uses Witch Twist OoS (and you miss punishing that) followed by a ABK to escape. That's 26 frames of landing lag. Still huge on landing lag terms, but the player may not be totally ready for it.