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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Bowserboy3

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Well I did remember his weight was 95.
It's hard to explain. Basically I meant it in the sense of how hard he gets comboed in relation to his weight. For someone who is 95, he gets damaged racked on him very quickly, so he still ends up arriving kill percent rather early.
In regards to him arriving at kill percent rather early, it's probably to do with a mixture of his medium weight and fast fall speed that means he can be combo'd into a finisher, when other characters who are either lighter or fall slower would escape the finisher. It could also be to do with his recovery being sub par.

Roy's an oddity... being a mid weight, you'd expect him to survive quite a while, but a lot of times, he does seem to get KO'd earlier than you'd expect. Then again, that may be to do with his general lack of true safety, meaning he gets hit by more powerful punish options more...

Who knows!
 
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williamsga555

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Big D's matchup chart for D3 is pretty good, I think. The only two characters I think are notably questionable are Wii Fit (the matchup's not bad, but I'm hesitant to call it in our favor) and ZSS (who Big D has always been a bit optimistic on, even in placing it as a losing matchup, as most of us still consider this one pretty terrible). Otherwise, it's saying we beat 6 characters (most of whom are considered near the bottom tiers), go roughly even with low-mid tiers, and lose against a majority of high and top tiers.
 

G. Stache

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Big D's matchup chart for D3 is pretty good, I think. The only two characters I think are notably questionable are Wii Fit (the matchup's not bad, but I'm hesitant to call it in our favor) and ZSS (who Big D has always been a bit optimistic on, even in placing it as a losing matchup, as most of us still consider this one pretty terrible). Otherwise, it's saying we beat 6 characters (most of whom are considered near the bottom tiers), go roughly even with low-mid tiers, and lose against a majority of high and top tiers.
Could I ask what your feelings on the Roy MU are (assuming you feel confident enough to talk about it)? It was my understanding that Roy actually beat DDD pretty confidently and I know that a DDD main I talk to says that he absolutely hates the MU. Could you maybe go into detail on how DDD handles Roy? No offense to your character or anything, but I don't particularly see what lets DDD handle Roy that well.
 

williamsga555

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I've only played against a Roy in bracket once, so take my thoughts on it with a grain of salt, as a lot of it is just through what I know from the characters individually.

Both of these characters blow each other up and edgeguard each other well (by edgeguard for Roy, I mean he covers D3's getup options well). Neutral is awkward because Roy can't get around D3's spacing if D3 chooses the right move, but D3 doesn't want to throw anything out willy-nilly because the endlag on everything is going to let Roy start playing his own game.

Roy wants to bait out an option and start his trapping/landing coverage cycle, which D3 has a hard time avoiding (sure, he can avoid dthrow frame traps by multijumps, but then he's stuck with landing against Roy. Yikes!).

D3 just wants to get Roy offstage through any means possible. Stage control is the King's best friend against characters with poor recoveries and off-stage games (hello, Roy).

If I had more experience in this matchup, I'd be more inclined to comment on Big D's placement on it. If I had to theorize where I'd place it, I'd say it'd be more close to even and maybe in Roy's favor. Also keep in mind that I'm a pretty big Roy optimist and D3 pessimist, so even that theorizing might be skewed. If more people played Roy around my area, I'd be able to help more, but alas.
 

wm1026

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Speaking of MU spreads, almost every I've seen has put :4bowserjr: at +1 or +2 for their character.

I'm wondering why, besides the fact that he's low tier.
:181:
It's because no one has played a good one really, and now that he has been put as a low tier everyone just assumes they win. Bowser Jr. has his flaws and his generally considered bad, and because there isn't a prevalent Jr player then all the theorycraft will be of him being bad. Although he obviously can't be to bad because tweek did well with him in the early game of smash 4 (the one when Diddy Shiek ZSS and rosa dominated). Jade beat trela which is mostly considered to be the best ryu or at least one of the best with jr. Although like always unless someone does well at a national he will always be considered low tier. I mean look at mega man. He was considered bad and now he is high tier?
 

Yikarur

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but Gheb is right.
There is nothing about Bowser jr. that could make him potentially better than he is looked at atm.
 

TheGoodGuava

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Right now I feel like Roy is a low/mid tier with a small playerbase but he has a ****load of potential, mostly in movement options. After playing with him for a little bit I've come to realize @Emblem Lord is right about his grounded mobility, top 3 overall but only if the players were to incorporate all the various movement techs in Smash 4. His step dash is ridiculous, he is on of 8 characters that can actually use dash dancing (which can be turned into a step dash), and his perfect pivot is useful for spacing his jab/dtilt. I don't think the thing holding Roy back is his lack of players, I think its that people aren't using all his options

Wadi please
 
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TDK

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You can disable through spin dash. I wonder if you can stuff spindash with any other moves?
 
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wm1026

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but Gheb is right.
There is nothing about Bowser jr. that could make him potentially better than he is looked at atm.
That could be true. What I'm saying is a lot of the theorycraft on here tends to be biased or guess work. I mean technically in theory little Mac should never be touched on the ground. Like I said this community as whole is hardheaded and won't change there opinions no matter what unless someone does well or wins a national. I mean after the mewtwo buffs there were still people that thought his weaknesses wouldn't let him be above mid tier. Only reason some of them changed their mind is because of Abadango winning pound. Now you got some saying he is to good and others saying he isn't good enough. With all of these contradicting opinions on a considered top tier character that has decent representation, how is it that the community is decided on a perceived low tier character(which should have no real place in competitive talk if he is a low tier) and with little to no real representation. The logic doesn't make sense.
 

outfoxd

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It's because no one has played a good one really, and now that he has been put as a low tier everyone just assumes they win. Bowser Jr. has his flaws and his generally considered bad, and because there isn't a prevalent Jr player then all the theorycraft will be of him being bad. Although he obviously can't be to bad because tweek did well with him in the early game of smash 4 (the one when Diddy Shiek ZSS and rosa dominated). Jade beat trela which is mostly considered to be the best ryu or at least one of the best with jr. Although like always unless someone does well at a national he will always be considered low tier. I mean look at mega man. He was considered bad and now he is high tier?
Duck Hunt and a lot of mid to low tiers get the same treatment. It's just assumed they're bad, so everyone beats them.

Duck Hunt is lucky to be put on even by most people.
 

TheGoodGuava

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Duck Hunt and a lot of mid to low tiers get the same treatment. It's just assumed they're bad, so everyone beats them.

Duck Hunt is lucky to be put on even by most people.
at least Duck Hunt has things going for him
Good mobility, an actual neutral, and good edgeguarding can actually take him places.
 

Mr. Johan

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There was a problem fetching the tweet

Link made Abadango's Top 20. T's really influenced him.

Also might be the first list with Lucas on it with Ness nowhere in sight.
 

Baby_Sneak

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There was a problem fetching the tweet

Link made Abadango's Top 20. T's really influenced him.

Also might be the first list with Lucas on it with Ness nowhere in sight.
Sonic is by himself. Bayo is top 5. Lucario is top 10. ZSS is above Mario (who isn't top 10).

Oh my.
 

|RK|

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There was a problem fetching the tweet

Link made Abadango's Top 20. T's really influenced him.

Also might be the first list with Lucas on it with Ness nowhere in sight.
Another top player with Lucario in top tier...
 

evmaxy54

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But do you actually know them? I wasn't asking if you know of them, I was asking if you play against them regularly.

For example, the only Fox main I know who has experience in the Fox vs Zelda MU is Skarfelt. Because he actually has maXy in his region (and didn't he drop her for Cloud recently?)
That was back in February

Then I dropped Cloud (& Sm4sh) after drowning in Hypespotting in April because why put effort in this game when I did really well in Melee there (3rd)

Now I'm back to Zelda really just to troll bracket

This game makes me super emo ROFL
 

TDK

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There was a problem fetching the tweet

Link made Abadango's Top 20. T's really influenced him.

Also might be the first list with Lucas on it with Ness nowhere in sight.
Lucas, Link, and Pit (And Dark Pit by extension) in top 20, Link above Toon Link too. Lucario top tier again, Mario outside top 10. This is really interesting.
 

Frihetsanka

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Sonic is by himself. Bayo is top 5. Lucario is top 10. ZSS is above Mario (who isn't top 10).
It's not ordered within tiers, so Bayonetta is top 8, Lucario, ZZS, and Mario top 12. Link in top 24 is very interesting. Are people sleeping on him that badly, or is Abadango massively overrating him?
 

Yikarur

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I'm convinced that Sonic might be the best character in this game as well.
Which is a bad thing because people tend to close streams when Sonic is in a set.
And then he is the best character in the game, so it might be that in 3 years we have a Sonic-centric metagame.

rip :p
 

soniczx123

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I'm convinced that Sonic might be the best character in this game as well.
Which is a bad thing because people tend to close streams when Sonic is in a set.
And then he is the best character in the game, so it might be that in 3 years we have a Sonic-centric metagame.

rip :p
He hasn't gotten top 8 in any recent supermajor.

He does well in Japan and Europe but not particularly in the US (By that I mean winning or consistent top 8)

Somehow the best character in the game? Okey wut.
 

Das Koopa

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There was a problem fetching the tweet

people are already labbing other burial locks

looks like Villager has a bright future
 

Frihetsanka

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I'm convinced that Sonic might be the best character in this game as well.
Which is a bad thing because people tend to close streams when Sonic is in a set.
And then he is the best character in the game, so it might be that in 3 years we have a Sonic-centric metagame.

rip :p
I think he's the third best, or possibly the fourth best. He's a super good character with a super good MU chart, yet his results are much worse than those of Diddy Kong and Sheik. With that being said, I'm sure the Sonic stigma holds him back. More top players would likely play him if more people enjoyed playing against and watching Sonic. Imagine if someone like ANTi or ZeRo would become a Sonic main, there'd be a massive outrage.
 

ARISTOS

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I'm interested in hearing opinions.

US Sonics generally said to not be on the level of Japanese Sonics.

But what Japanese Sonics come over, they generally perform much more poorly.

Is it because US players are better at dealing with Sonic, or rather that US stagelists hinder Sonic from being as strong as in Japan?

There was a problem fetching the tweet

people are already labbing other burial locks

looks like Villager has a bright future
...sakuuuuuRRRAAAIIII!
 
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my_T

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I'm interested in hearing opinions.

US Sonics generally said to not be on the level of Japanese Sonics.

But what Japanese Sonics come over, they generally perform much more poorly.

Is it because US players are better at dealing with Sonic, or rather that US stagelists hinder Sonic from being as strong as in Japan?



...sakuuuuuRRRAAAIIII!
When the US visits japan they dont do all that well against sonic. Ally lost to Komo last time he was there. Then you have Ken's victories over Dabuz and Nairo; very convincing I would say.
 

teddystalin

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I'm interested in hearing opinions.

US Sonics generally said to not be on the level of Japanese Sonics.

But what Japanese Sonics come over, they generally perform much more poorly.

Is it because US players are better at dealing with Sonic, or rather that US stagelists hinder Sonic from being as strong as in Japan?
There's such a tiny pool of international results for the best Japanese Sonics that it's hard to claim that they do significantly worse here. Komorikiri has been to four tournaments in the states: Genesis 3, Evo 2016, Wombo Wednesday #21, and PSG Classic 2016. He placed 17th, 17th, 1st, and 2nd, respectively. He lost only to Mr. R, Marss, Dabuz, ZeRo, and Earth. With the exception of Earth, those are all clear top 15 players, and he used Cloud over Sonic in every set (with the possible exception of ZeRo - it was off-stream.

Of those, KEN has only attended Evo and PSG Classic. He placed 13th and 3rd and only lost to Komo (x2), Void, and ZeRo. None are particularly embarassing losses. So if it seems like they're doing worse when they're overseas, it's because they're attending only the most stacked tournaments and run into better players/ZeRo on a crazy losers' run sooner than they would in Japan.
 

ShadowGuy1

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He hasn't gotten top 8 in any recent supermajor.

He does well in Japan and Europe but not particularly in the US (By that I mean winning or consistent top 8)

Somehow the best character in the game? Okey wut.
Like results mean everything lol.
The best sonic at SSC, 6WX, got knocked out by the two top placers. EVO the 2 highest placing sonics lost to zero, contender for first. Results don't mean everything lol. Everyone thought bayo was broken even though she won and rarely got top 8 at like nothing. Now I'm not saying sonic is the best, but yeah. Noticing from a lot of your posts your a sonic pessimist, off topic, but I just wanted to say that.
 

Megamang

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Well, good thing Mega is a consistent threat to sonic. Something something anti meta.


For real though, im glad to play a game where the possible best characters all have bad MUs.


Even then, i definitely see sonic as a possible number 1 contender. He abuses the things that wont change with the meta: human reaction time, invincibility (on his offensive and defensive options...), powerful punish games.

And no, its not because of spindash. Its his mobility. The trait that always, always leads the meta as it progresses into adulthood. In like every genre. (RTS armies start with strongarming through like a goon but end up with mobile armies dictating the pace of the game). Once that mobility is used, sonic only goes in on his terms.


But, this is a MU I'd say a pocket megaman actually gets some mileage. Its a blip blip blip kinda battle, rather than a complex battle of precision. And uair is really great vs anyone that struggles to land. And leaves + shield + grab allows you take the lead early pretty safely.


While im posting... everyone, stop CPing megaman to lylat. The slants dont hurt my zoning, and my utilt has a lagless cancel on the wings. And no, you cant camp megaman out on the tree at DH, or anywhere above him. Uair is too good.


Actually, uair beats out circle camping for limit as well; suddenly you are trying to land through the platforms and life is tough. It seems to me that mega will thrive if people start focusing on being lame. Fortunately i dont think that will happen, if anything people are being more aggro once they are in advantage.
 

FeelMeUp

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Sonic counterplay really sucks atm. Most S4 players specialize almost entirely at long or close range fighting, but the most comfortable area to fight him is one where he has to awkwardly decide whether he should run or spindash: i.e midrange.
It's why I think characters that have spectacular midrange games like Diddy, Fox, MM, ZSS and Rosa do amazing against him and his players seem to be heavily overestimating his MU spread. He craps on characters that focus too heavily on long or close range a lot of the time, unfortunately, so some characters literally cannot do anything to stop him at all.
 
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soniczx123

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Like results mean everything lol.
The best sonic at SSC, 6WX, got knocked out by the two top placers. EVO the 2 highest placing sonics lost to zero, contender for first. Results don't mean everything lol. Everyone thought bayo was broken even though she won and rarely got top 8 at like nothing. Now I'm not saying sonic is the best, but yeah. Noticing from a lot of your posts your a sonic pessimist, off topic, but I just wanted to say that.
I would say not really a pessimist, more of a realist.

I acknowledge that Sonic is an amazing character and that he is a top character in this game. It's just that I constantly see too much hyperbole about the character whenever I see him being the main topic of discussion.

The cause of this is easy to pinpoint: Lack of knowledge of how the character works.

Even top players don't realize how Sonic works in the grand scheme of things. They see spindash that's his only option which also looks extremely dominant.

Sonic players try to educate non-sonic players on how the character works and how to play against him, but we always get brushed off as scrubs or damaging controllers and then when a Top Players (which clearly has no idea what they are talking about) states something about Sonic, it's taken word by word as the absolute truth.

Counterplay is a minimal and the community doesn't to want change that.
 

UberMadman

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Look guys, Bowser Jr. is certainly a bad character, but that doesn't mean you're allowed to spread misinformation about him.

Smashes? All of them are very impractical.
If you consider a Forward Smash that is massively disjointed even beyond it's animation, active forever, ridiculously powerful, and completely safe on shield to be "impractical," then sure. I mean, oftentimes I exploit how little people know about my character by throwing out random Forward Smashes to make people approach thinking they can punish it only to punish their approach instead. This move is stupid good, and imo one of the best Forward Smashes in the entire game. Beyond this, his Up-Smash is frame 7 grounded* and deceptively powerful, serving as an OOS option, (admittedly his only decent one,) and as a landing trap/mixup. Only his Down Smash is in any way impractical.

Projectiles? One sucks, the other is pretty situational [although important for the character].

"Important for the character" is an understatement, it's integral to a lot of his matchups. The additional pressure created by Mechakoopa makes a lot of his approaches harder to punish, as there are times where if the opponent drops shield to punish, Mechakoopa will walk into them and potentially set up a combo for Jr. The move also makes it really difficult to recover directly below the ledge because Jr. can deploy one directly down, (which helps a lot in the Cloud MU by the way,) and Bowser Jr. can pick it up himself to use as a Link Bomb. Speaking of which, if Bowser Jr. picks up Mechakoopa, Z-Drops it, then picks it up again in midair, the mechakoopa will no longer damage Jr. when it blows up in his hand, which allows it to work as a pseudo-oos option because the Mechakoopa timer still counts down while he's shielding. Finally, trying to pick up grouded mechakoopa is possible but risky for opponent's because of the size of its grouded hitbix, (similar to R.O.B.'s gyro,) and reflecting a grounded Mechakoopa does not grant stage control to the opponet because Jr. can completely armor through it with Side-B.

Dealing with pressure? A big hitbox and the only decent OoS option is the very risky upB out of shield.
Again, he has a frame 7 grounded* Up-Smash that kills around 120%, (depending on rage and weight of course, ) as well as recaught Mechakoopa explosion. Those are his only good oos options though, up-b oos is crap and I wouldn't even call it decent.

Approach options? Nothing is safe on block unless you have a Mecha Koopa in play, sideB is vulnerable and his aerials don't help him much.
His aerials help him out dramatically because both fair and bair autocancel from a short hop, while fair is active forever and disjointed and bair can sweetspot taller chars like Ryu and Rosa from a short hop, making it safe on shield. Side-B is very fast and can be jump canceled, so oftentimes it can be used to get just out of the opponent's range and tomohawk to judge their reaction to the move while simultaneously closing the gap. How they react to it is crucial because the move has mixup potential on shield, and if you respond correctly to the opponent you just got a free approach and potentially converted it into advantage. Plus, on hit, Bowser Jr. has a kill confirm on the entire cast from around 90-110% depending on a lot of factors, so if you don't respect that move, it may cost you your stock.

He basically has all of the inherent weaknesses of a super-heavyheight without the strengths to make up for them. Or actually being a super-heavyweight for that matter.
He has a weight value of 108 and a damage reduction multiplier on his kart, and since damage is a direct factor in the knockback formula, any attacks to the body of his kart do knockback equivalent to being a super-heavyweight, (however, attacks to his body have a percent increase, so if he gets hit in the body he can die like a midweight, which is quite annoying.) He also has superior aerial mobility to all the super heavies, side-b as a mobility tool, disjoints on literally every move in his kit, superior juggle game to most heavies, and on top of all this, relatively high kill power.

Seriously, if you're going to make an informed post on a low tier, please get your information right.

* EDIT: Ironically, I'm guilty of a little misinformation myself here. I initially stated his Up-Smash to be frame 9, but actually it has a launcher hitbox on grounded opponents that begins on frame 7 and ends on frame 9 that launches into the aerial hitbox, while the aerial hitbox itself begins on frame 10. This means that it's 1 frame worse as an anti-air than I initially claimed, but 2 frames better as an oos option. My apologies.
 
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Sinister Slush

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T and Taiheita must be doing a lot to change the opinion of people in Japan.
Japan has always had even worse super knee jerk reactions and opinions than the western players where if one player does well, it's time to throw that character in top tier. This time is no different.

Doubt I can find it but I remember when one of the japanese players posted their list somewhere on SB and had Pit in like top 15 of brawl solely cause of Earth.
 

mountain_tiger

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One pretty huge problem with Bowser Jr (that hasn't been mentioned here so far) is that he simply has too much endlag on almost all of his moves, which is an absolute killer when combined with his lack of range. Having disjoints on every move is nice, but it can't be denied that generally they still don't reach very far.

Bowser Jr certainly has a lot of moves that are good in isolation, but they simply don't mesh very well together or form a particularly coherent playstyle.

On a side note, has anyone noticed how if a character has a particularly exploitable recovery, by and large they're immediately written off as terrible? Bowser Jr and Duck Hunt are huge victims of this, and then there's Dr Mario, Little Mac, Link etc. - all characters seen as competitively irrelevant in large part due to their poor recoveries (well, Link is getting more recognition as of recent, but still...)

Now, a poor recovery is obviously a big flaw, especially in a game where many recoveries are so good, but it does feel like when these characters are brought up, the response is always 'lol recovery' and everything else (good and bad) gets brushed under the carpet.

Possibly I'm reading too far into it.
 

UberMadman

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Bowser Jr certainly has a lot of moves that are good in isolation, but they simply don't mesh very well together or form a particularly coherent playstyle.
That's a fair enough point, but keep in mind that my post was about misinformation about his kit itself, not a statement on the effectiveness of Jr.'s gameplan as a whole. That said, in my personal opinion, the effective tools that Jr. does have tend to lend themselves to a spacing, bait and punish style with punishes that lead to juggles and a little pseudo-zoning with mechakoopa + disjoint. Bowser Jr. tends to sit just outside of the opponent's range harassing them with autocancel fair/bair and mechakoopa, and forces comittments out of the opponent that lead to strong damage and potential kills. He's not the most effective at it for a lot of reasons, but his gameplan is cohesive enough to not just be a mishmash.
 

Megamang

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mountain_tiger mountain_tiger

Bad recovery can be crippling. At the very least, it means you will take lots of damage if you get knocked/thrown offstage. At worst, it means you can outright lose at any moment you lose advantage. This is really bad for progressing through a bracket. I think its the difference maker for ike. It can completely negate heavyweights having good survival, for example. Tier lists are comparing characters, and when you have things like flip kick and teleport recoveries vs a character that can die to fthrow into fair reads.. ouch.

I mean, look how good Cloud's characteristics have to be to negate his recovery, which is still a solid recovery when he has limit.

I think mega would lose to ike, but the fact that ftilt nair strings can take him offstage, and then bair just covers almost everything... it changes my gameplan drastically.


UberMadman UberMadman

Since we are in a multi-char meta more and more every day... what MUs could a pocket BowJ come into play? I really like the character, so a few top or high tier MUs that validate him might give him a powerful niche. Id imagine mechakoopa ground contr and fsmash might hurt marth? But SHAD and edgeguarding... idk. Thoughts?
 

DunnoBro

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at least Duck Hunt has things going for him
Good mobility, an actual neutral, and good edgeguarding can actually take him places.
He has very very average mobility if not below. Poor air speed and average run speed, total lack of burst mobilty unlike DK or Bowser with their dash attacks. Edgeguarding is mediocre too. Just because he can put out hitboxes offstage doesn't make him good at edgeguarding.

The total inability to actually go offstage himself without huuuge risk and little reward leaves his edgeguarding only about as good as link, or diddy's. He can do it if he has too, but he'll get far more mileage out of establishing stage control.
 

TurboLink

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One pretty huge problem with Bowser Jr (that hasn't been mentioned here so far) is that he simply has too much endlag on almost all of his moves, which is an absolute killer when combined with his lack of range. Having disjoints on every move is nice, but it can't be denied that generally they still don't reach very far.



Bowser Jr certainly has a lot of moves that are good in isolation, but they simply don't mesh very well together or form a particularly coherent playstyle.

On a side note, has anyone noticed how if a character has a particularly exploitable recovery, by and large they're immediately written off as terrible? Bowser Jr and Duck Hunt are huge victims of this, and then there's Dr Mario, Little Mac, Link etc. - all characters seen as competitively irrelevant in large part due to their poor recoveries (well, Link is getting more recognition as of recent, but still...)

Now, a poor recovery is obviously a big flaw, especially in a game where many recoveries are so good, but it does feel like when these characters are brought up, the response is always 'lol recovery' and everything else (good and bad) gets brushed under the carpet.

Possibly I'm reading too far into it.
Now hold on a minute you can't put Link's recovery options in the same league as Dr. Mario and Little Mac's.
He has a tether grab, which is something neither of the other two have and allows him to mix up his mode of recovery. Add in his Gale Boomerang and Bombs and he has now has some sort of distraction that when used wisely make it at least slightly harder to gimp him than it was before.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Link made Abadango's Top 20. T's really influenced him.

Also might be the first list with Lucas on it with Ness nowhere in sight.
Abadango what the hell?! Why are you trolling the Link mains?
 
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