Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TDK]

If he managed to pull that out without us knowing it it would be hype. This also works with DK's side b right? AFAIK it works with all burying moves

DK's sideb is too slow to pull it off in singles, you'd need double DK.

 

[Ilikebugs]

Okay are people arguing that Marth is better(which imo is true) or that Marth invalidates Lucina(which imo is not true)?

 

[L9999]

@TSM ZeRo on why he thinks is the best character in the game.

What part of "2:8" MU he doesn't understand?

 

[Das Koopa]

he stated that the mu is rare but regardless of your thoughts on the mu the fact that it's rare is irrelevant and the fact that he says you can just pick up a secondary to cover it strongly reinforces the idea that her m/u chart isn't the strongest in the game

 

[ReRaze]

You can't quantify the threat of getting hit by a tipper or the effects it has on a match in percentages. If you lose a set because you get his by Marth's tipper at percents you could've survived if it were Lucina you're not gonna care about whether the odds of that happening were 25% or only 20. What matters is that you die at 75% in one instance and survive at 100% in the other. And since you only have either 4 or 6 stocks in most metas one single tipper can just screw you up entirely.

The only move really relevant to that statement is Fsmash, and how often do you see Marth's tipper Fsmash in competitive play?
The rest of Marth's tippers Utilt, Uair, Fair, Bair, Nair, Ftilt don't even come close to that power but they are what we usually see and all of them normally kill around the 100% range which is around the usual percents people die which is great considering their usability but not really enough to "screw you up entirely"

 

[Yikarur]

I thought Rosalina players are about to think that the MK MU is even. I could swear I've read that multiple times about a week ago.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

As far as I know it was only one person who was saying the MU is even and it was an MK player

I still don't buy it tbh. MK can death combo Rosa, oneshots Luma, edgeguards her for free, and wins neutral when Luma is gone

 

[Wintermelon43]

What part of "2:8" MU he doesn't understand?

But the matchup isn't 2:8.

Serisualy, I'm tired of people saying the matchup is 2:8 or unwinnable. It is defitenly very bad and the main thing holding Rosalina back, but there is no way it is 2:8. That ratio is only even thrown out for Dedede vs ZSS and Ganon vs Bayo, and even then they're probably not THAT bad.

Think about it, Ness has many bad matchups, but the main bad matchup is ironicially Rosalina, which alone put him down at least 3-4 spots. But still that matchup is only considering 3:7. Take the problems of the Rosa-Ness matchup, plus the problems of a -2 matchup like Kirby vs DK. That's what a 2:8 matchup would be like, and all of that would make a virtually unwinnable matchup. Dabuz even beating Abadango's Meta Knight despite a lack of experience honestly is good enough to prove it is winnable; The skill differance is still not big enough. And I doubt he would lose to S2H. Leo, Tyrant, and Ito could possibly beat him though. If Ness loses 3-4 spots from his matchup vs Rosa alone, an actually unwinnable matchup would probably kick rosa out of top tier, but almost everyone thinks she's either at the bottom of top 5 or right below it.

I don't know if you were being serious about it being 2:8 or not, but I hear people say this (or that it's unwinnable, which is about the same thing. 2:8 is when it almost gets to that point) all the time and it's rediculous. I'm not saying ZeRo is right, Rosa is defitenly not above characters like Diddy or Sheik, but her Meta Knight matchup isn't unwinnable.

 

[sedrf]

It's 35: 65 and you know it
This sin't brawl/melee

Also speaking of rosa:
Dabuz made some predictions of what might happen in the future
Keep in mind it's mostly theory

 

[|RK|]

he stated that the mu is rare but regardless of your thoughts on the mu the fact that it's rare is irrelevant and the fact that he says you can just pick up a secondary to cover it strongly reinforces the idea that her m/u chart isn't the strongest in the game

If the purpose of a tier list is to show how likely a character is to succeed in tournament, I'd argue rarity is very relevant. It's directly related to how successful a character can be.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

FamilyTeam After reading your post I kind of want to hear your opinion of Roy. Hes considered the weaker of the 2 clones but do you think his position in bottom 10 is justifiable?

 

[Das Koopa]

if a rare character has a good matchup against the supposed #1 then the meta progression trends towards said rare character becoming increasingly common

 

[Krysco]

Can someone please explain to me why whenever Lucas is brought up, there's always the mention that he's either better than Ness or will be better than him? I've brought this up before but that is saying that a character that is currently in the lower end of mid tier is better than or will be better than a character that is currently at the higher end (albeit barely) of high tier. Is it a belief that Lucas will sky rocket upwards on the tier list ala Brawl Olimar/Sonic or Sm4sh Mewtwo? Is it a belief that Ness will plummet ala Brawl G&W/R.O.B.? Is it a combination? If this were Brawl we were talking about, I'd get it a bit more. Ness and Lucas were always rather close to each other on the tier list in that game and I do believe one went over the other at some point.

This sort of discussion makes more sense to me when it's about Lucina. She's often regarded as 'bad Marth' and is generally put far below him simply because of that. It's often brought up how on mu charts, Lucina is almost always put in a category below Marth, like if vs Marth is even then Lucina is advantage or if Marth is disadvantage then Lucina is even etc. To my understanding, Lucas isn't looked at as 'bad Ness'. People don't just look at their mu vs Ness and figure it's one step easier for the Lucas mu.

I get that they do have some similarities. Just checked Kurogane and they have the same weight, roll frames and spot dodge frames and there may have been some other stuff too but otherwise, a lot of stuff had them at least somewhat spaced apart. Is it just a convenient place to predict where Lucas will go? Predicting that he'll be better than Megaman being too optimistic while predicting that he'll be better than Toon Link not optimistic enough? If that's the case then I've no problem with that although I feel a more realistic approach would be to say something like 'I predict in the next tier list, Lucas will be higher than Luigi.' Far smaller gap you're predicting Lucas to climb.

I've no problem with the Lucas optimism, I'd just like some substance so I can understand where all of this optimism is coming from. Or perhaps it's moreso pessimism towards Ness. Lucas could stay in the exact same place he's in right now and Ness could drop incredibly low and the predictions of Lucas being better than Ness would still come true.

---

As for the whole Rosalina discussion, I never checked the videos where Zero mentioned Rosa being the best and why but a thought came to mind. If you look at Fox and Falco in Melee, neither character has an mu below 0 and yet Fox is above Falco purely for having more positive mus. Rosalina could very well have a terrible mu vs MK but if her mu spread against the rest of the cast is incredible then she could very well be the best character in the game. I don't personally believe that and I believe Zero himself mentioned at some point that Diddy can't possibly be the best because a top tier should have no bad mus but perhaps having 1 atrocious mu as opposed to numerous -1s or 45:55 or 40:60 or whatever you wanna use, is better.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

But the matchup isn't 2:8.

Serisualy, I'm tired of people saying the matchup is 2:8 or unwinnable. It is defitenly very bad and the main thing holding Rosalina back, but there is no way it is 2:8. That ratio is only even thrown out for Dedede vs ZSS and Ganon vs Bayo, and even then they're probably not THAT bad.

Think about it, Ness has many bad matchups, but the main bad matchup is ironicially Rosalina, which alone put him down at least 3-4 spots. But still that matchup is only considering 3:7. Take the problems of the Rosa-Ness matchup, plus the problems of a -2 matchup like Kirby vs DK. That's what a 2:8 matchup would be like, and all of that would make a virtually unwinnable matchup. Dabuz even beating Abadango's Meta Knight despite a lack of experience honestly is good enough to prove it is winnable; The skill differance is still not big enough. And I doubt he would lose to S2H. Leo, Tyrant, and Ito could possibly beat him though. If Ness loses 3-4 spots from his matchup vs Rosa alone, an actually unwinnable matchup would probably kick rosa out of top tier, but almost everyone thinks she's either at the bottom of top 5 or right below it.

I don't know if you were being serious about it being 2:8 or not, but I hear people say this (or that it's unwinnable, which is about the same thing. 2:8 is when it almost gets to that point) all the time and it's rediculous. I'm not saying ZeRo is right, Rosa is defitenly not above characters like Diddy or Sheik, but her Meta Knight matchup isn't unwinnable.

Ness vs Rosa is realistically more winnable though. Ness actually does somewhat alright when he's on the stage. It's when he's offstage that he gets bodied. MK bodies Rosalina EVERYWHERE. Not only that but you can't say "Abadongo's Meta Knight" and expect it to help your argument.

 

[|RK|]

It's 35: 65 and you know it
This sin't brawl/melee

Also speaking of rosa:
Dabuz made some predictions of what might happen in the future
Keep in mind it's mostly theory

I see M2K agreeing that Lucario (and Mega Man) could be top tier. That's a few top players we have believing that he could be up there now.

if a rare character has a good matchup against the supposed #1 then the meta progression trends towards said rare character becoming increasingly common

Of course, but right now he's still pretty uncommon.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

A few things.

Regarding Marth/Lucina and optimal spacing: I think you have to look at Marcina's mobility/frame data relative to the cast to make the judgement here. If Marcina were the best characters in the game, it might be correct to say that if Marth is spaced optimally, he will always be better than Lucina. But looking at the game we have, the two of them are too slow for that to be the case, I'd say. For example: I don't think it's possible, assuming two equal players, for Marth to always space for tippers/sourspots as he pleases against Sheik. He just doesn't have the mobility. Sheik is too fast. So in the game we have, there are matchups where Lucina's consistency along the blade will be what you want.

Regarding Mewtwo: The only thing that I would be alright with toning down, if I had to pick something, would be Shadow Ball. The best characters in Smash 4 tend to have not only moves designed to be very good but also moves that you get the feeling the devs just forgot about. They're not broken, but for moves that are maybe the 5th or 6th best option in a character's kit, they're uncomfortably good, kinda like when OKC used to bring Harden off the bench. Like, James Harden is your backup offense? That seems like a bit much. (The Thunder's owners really appreciated game balance, one supposes.)

I think that Shadow Ball was very tame before Mewtwo's mobility buffs, since he had some trouble running up and infighting. You could deal with a Shadow Ball from range and not have to worry about Mewtwo himself breathing down your neck right afterward (especially with the old recoil), which is no longer the case. Now that Mewtwo is so frightening when he gets in on you, the fact that he can randomly kill you with Shadow Ball from range is questionable design. Particularly when used for landing traps, Shadow Ball is kind of a bonkers move. It could stand to be weaker and still give Mewtwo a ranged option. There's a world of difference between "Has a projectile for zoning purposes" and "Has a projectile that zones and might straight-up kill you." Part of Mewtwo's appeal is that he's such a Swiss army knife, but when even the toothpick is a kill move, we might have crossed a line somewhere. Fortunately, Mewtwo still has enough weaknesses that he's not out of control, and I actually really like how his weaknesses fit into his kit. For example, his throws are easily good enough that you could rely on them for much of Mewtwo's offense, but his low traction and poor standing grab mean he actually has trouble getting grabs in the first place. You have to be more creative than "Grab, get a combo, repeat," especially since he doesn't have guaranteed followups from throws.

Relating to my "devs forgot about this" idea, they probably didn't think about how much Shadow Ball was balanced by prepatch Mewtwo's middling mobility. Heck, they even reduced the recoil and enlarged the hitbox on it when they buffed Mewtwo. Now there are so many other crazy options in Mewtwo's toolbox (D-Tilt, F-Air, air dodge, throws, etc.) that Shadow Ball kinda gets lost in the shuffle. Granted, Shadow Ball is hardly the only move in Mewtwo's kit that got its chance to shine after the mobility patch. I really don't think the character was bottom or even low tier when he was released, just heavily underestimated. (Aside: I owe a lot to the people who worked on Mewtwo's F-Air animation. The move was perfectly good before the buffs, still very strong, but because the hitbox didn't quite match the purple trail, it got buffed. We take those.)

Think of it like this: There was a bit of discussion in the last few pages about Confusion, and I think the consensus is that it's a good move, but if you were looking to give a character a reflector and had your pick of Smash 4's lot, there are plenty of options you'd go with ahead of Confusion. It's good, versatile, and really shines as one of many options at Mewtwo's disposal, but it's not that crazy a move in a vacuum. But if you had your choice of Smash 4's projectiles, how many would you take ahead of Shadow Ball?

This post brought to you by: mobility. It's super important.

Addendum: Now I'm going to take off my game balance/design hat and put on my Mewtwo main partisan hat. Give me back the charging Shadow Ball hitbox from Melee. Please and thank you.

 

[Ulevo]

What part of "2:8" MU he doesn't understand?

If you think this match up is 2:8 you're ridiculous.

 

[Yikarur]

I think Raptor's MU chart was a bit over-optimistic so I created my own:

My personal Yoshi MU chart. I'm lacking even MUs because I think in a game like smash there are only a few. pic.twitter.com/oDMYjye426

— Yikarur (@Yikarur) September 8, 2016

Some "Write-ups"

Winning MUs:
- Mii's are "Guest-size, all moves".
- I lack even MUs, because I think in a game like smash you rarely have "true" even MUs so a lot of +1's could probably be labled as even.
- is even or +1. Yoshi wrecks CF off-stage but a really good CF is such a pain but I think Yoshis combos and the ability to edgeguard CF is enough to justify this as an advantage.
- I think Yoshi beats . I think Marios biggest strengths just don't work on Yoshi. (Fishing for Upsmash kills, Combos to fair 50:50 usw.)
- :4lucario at 190% is probably -3 lmao but I think Yoshi doesn't have any problems hitting Lucario with his kill set-ups because he has a very convinient weight and falling speed.
- I feel very confident against , of course I haven't played a Mega Man like Kamemushi but I don't really feel threatend by Mega Mans tools at all so I think Yoshi could win this MU, but even is obviously possible as well.
- is in Yoshis favor. I say that confidently because all results in this MU no matter the region are in Yoshis favor. Resultwise this could even be better than +1 but I think thats unrealistic and a fail on the Ryu's part to play the MU properly.

Even MUs:
- could be -1 or +1. I'm really not sure at all. I think if you steal the gyro it's in Yoshis favor bu easier said than done.
- Yoshi cannot abuse weakness of being very unsafe on shield because of his lag of proper grab, that's why I think this MU is not really in Yoshis favor. Yoshi can juggle Roy really really hard though. It could be +1 but I don't feel like it's advantagous.

Bad MUs:
- , and are agreed by almost all Yoshis as being our worst match-ups. Maybe Mewtu is only -1 but I'm not good enough at the match-up to give it a -1 myself.
- tbh I think could be a -2 MU if played optimally, but I haven't faced such a strong Sonic yet. I know that japanese Yoshis have it labeled as -3 and I can understand the idea behind it.
- Yoshi struggles against projectile heavy , because his powershield radius sucks, his shield dash sucks and he wants to be in the air = no shielding and you want to play very patient and powershield a lot and I just think Yoshi is not good enough at that kind of play.
- might be even but I think it's so hard to play the MU properly (against a Fox that understands Yoshi perfectly) that I label it as -1 for now.
- could be a -2 MU because Witch Twist alone beats Yoshi solidly. But I think with developed Bayonetta counterplay -1 is a solid stance for now.
- The MU is dumb. Nothing matters except who gets the kill first. I think needles camping is still very strong and a campy Sheik beats Yoshi. If the Sheik is not camping hard enough it's probably even.

If people have more questions about my opinion I'll answer them here but I go to sleep for now.

Good Night =)

 

[Nobie]

So I've been reviewing in my head my own statements about Mii Swordfighter, namely that the character has a bunch of properties that make him unattractive to potential players. But then I had to wonder, why is Swordfighter like this? What were the designers going for?

I think I've figured something out.

Swordfighter has a below average dash speed, a long initial dash animation, and high traction, as well as some other stuff I'm not sure of. Now, if you do a short dash with Swordfighter, and you'll see him move just a bit forward, and then stop pretty much abruptly.

What's also interesting is that the character has a very deceptive skid animation out of an initial dash. Rather than having a very noticeable skid pose, he barely looks different compared to when he's standing still. Not just that, but the animation before he's considered "out of a dash" seems to last longer, either because of that optical illusion, or because it actually has more frames.

Another component of Swordfighter is that his grab is actually REALLY good. It has the same frame data as Mario for grab, dash grab, and pivot grab. Also, the dash grab sends Swordfighter quite far.

Combining the two together, you can really mess with someone's timing/judgment by doing an initial dash, pausing for an instant, and then hitting grab. Because Swordfighter's initial dash skid animation is relatively long (or at least it seems that way), so any grab input during this time will count as a dash grab. As a result, you can actually dash -> pause -> then shoot forward quickly with a powerful dash grab. And because the skid animation itself is rather deceptive, I think it's easy for an opponent even familiar with Swordfighter to assume you've come to a full stop.

All of this also applies to dash attack, though I think it's not quite as effective as dash grab.

 

[Luco]

For the record, I already believe he's better than Ness.

His current position on the 4BR list is definitely too low, even if the circumstances for why were already explained way back in the thread. Taiheita continues to perform exceptionally with him, as do Mekos, Kodystri and Hakii to a lesser extent.

He has good buttons in dtilt, PK Fire, zair and jab all coupled with a versatile grab game (a combo throw and three kill throws is nothing to sneeze at, even if a tether grab is more committal than a regular one.) His zoning, combo game and recovery are all quite solid. He has some suspect matchups against high tiers (), but he doesn't lose notably hard to any characters from what I am able to infer. Though Luco can correct me if I'm just spewing misinformation.

In my opinion the character has a good amount of room to grow, if I'm honest he could make it in the mid 20s by the next list.

Nah you're good, Lucas has some trouble vs Cloud and Diddy especially and then Sheik below that, but as far as we can see nothing crippling.

The one I'm waiting for is Lucas vs Sonic, I personally think it's even but no-one else thinks so... Yet.

Lucas is really, REALLY good at keep-out in certain MUs, there are characters I just don't see getting in vs him, MK, Luigi, Ryu, Mario etc. I feel fall into this category. These, I'm hoping will be the kinds of MUs he'll shine in at higher levels of play in the future. Time will tell, of course.

Krysco It's hard to say. Ness' results have peaked as of late and our top reps haven't been there to pick up the slack, thus Ness' drop in the current list, and if that continues then I could see Ness falling as low as the bottom of the tier he's in. But it's still a way for Lucas to climb. Lucas has been trending more positive results for a while, and I know people like Thinkaman will be smiling at that because they predicted it in the first place. What was once seen as a shaky, patchy neutral game is now known to be a set of tools that directly counters approaches and often forces them in the first place. Lucas is adept at taking a lead early and then running with it because he can dance around his opponent and then punish their attempts to get in. His kit links into itself really well with the only inconsistency to that being Nair's SDI multiplier, and his reward on a successful grab is theoretically the best in the game (and practically a contender for it), including ridiculous combos, footstool setups and finally kill setups and kill throws.

The only time Lucas starts to break down as a character is when he's forced to approach. This is why I feel he struggles in some niche MUs like WFT and Greninja (thanks Wave </3). Aside from that, his potential is *still* being realised and people are still finding ways to utilise his tools more and more effectively. And unlike our PSI brother, we don't have a single 'roadblock' MU that single-handedly bars us from viability.

So maybe that's it, at least that's kinda how I feel right now. I don't know why this turn of events has come so late, but then again Lucas is a difficult character to effectively use even at a middling level (it took me 6 months before I could confidently use him in tournament alongside Ness) and that coupled with a late release as DLC and being less popular than other DLC at the time might be why our meta is still being nutted out now.

 

[blackghost]

I can't believe we've cycled back to both the mk vs Rosa topic (thank you zero /s) and the Marth lucina debate.
I'm just gonna say it can we have the Marth lucina debate banned from this board? the last formal evidence was presented and now it's just a cycle again. if people want to discuss it can they do it somewhere else?
secondly the mk and Rosa debate is no doubt worse than 6/4 but it's hard to argue that it's 8/2.

 

[Rizen]

I'm just gonna say it can we have the Marth lucina debate banned from this board? the last formal evidence was presented and now it's just a cycle again. if people want to discuss it can they do it somewhere else?

By the nature of this thread and the internet, we're always having a debate of something or other. Now it's Marth v Lucina, in a day it will be Pikachu, then Ness vs Lucas, then Link/Shulk/Charizard being underrated... *shrugs*

I'm curious what everyone thinks of Wario and what rep he has. In Das Koopa's results list he was one spot below Link.
http://i.imgur.com/R3RajSr.png

 

[Megamang]

An example of tipper's power not being shown in hard data happened to me today at a weekly.

A full rage marth got a random fsmash tipper on my megaman ~50%. I had double jumped to the top platform, so i had no jump. So i got fair'd 5 times until i died offstage.

On paper, he hit 1/6 tippers. In reality, the tipper was what ended the game.

This example also brings up another point... if you are getting gimped OR being knocked away from a marth trying to get back to neutral, sometimes the sour spot is just as good.

 

[ReRaze]

Pardon me if I sound rude but whenever I hear people say "Well if you can't space Marth's tippers in the heat of the moment and whatnot" as an argument for Lucina I get kind of flustered. There are two main points I often run by in my head. The first one is

- Difficulty of use does not and should not ever be a thing (in instances like these) when discussing the viability of something. I like to use the comparison of Dhalsim vs. Balrog in ST as an example for this. Balrog is for all intents and purposes worse than Dhalsim, but he has to make less difficult decisions all around and is generally an easier character to figure out and do clutch stuff with. However, when Dhalsim is used properly he is absolutely devastating and can not be stopped at all if he has you on lock and makes good choices, he just has to make them more meaningfully because his lower health and lack of a reliable reversal get him killed. In this sense, Balrog probably seems better or more worth using to most (and to be fair Balrog is 2nd best in the game, Dhalsim being 1st, to my knowledge.)
- My second point, and I don't know how contentious this actually is, is that if you're using either Marth or Lucina, you should be going for tippers, whether they exist or not. It just seems weird to me, why would you ever aim for the base of the sword with Lucina? Doing anything but making the most out of your range is (effectively) ignoring the biggest boon that both of these characters share, which is their range. They are both at their safest (and best) when they are fully spacing all of their aerials. There is a good chance that if you're against a fast top tier character and they're in the range of the base of your sword or close enough in that the tipper is meaningless....well at that point neither character is going to be able to do much, are they? It's kinda why this whole consistency thing has never rung with me, both characters aim to box people out so why would it realistically matter if one could afford to hit at the base when the fact that a character being in that range (and not in disadvantage state) means that they're in a bad situation.

For what it's worth, Lucina isn't really a bad character, but the more tipper/sourspot stuff people find with Marth, the longer the distance between them is gonna get, outside of the whole rewarded more for spacing things factor.

Agreed, having the added option of choosing between sour and sweetspots for combos or kills is pretty neat but really in the heat of battle it might be quite difficult to actually choose the option you want especially against characters with even better options, mobility, etc (e.g the top tiers)

Actually you're right, perhaps difficulty of use was a bad example on my part. I wouldn't put it past people to eventually become consistent at abusing sours or tippers at will to extend combos and what not. But there really are situations where it is too difficult or even impossible for Marth to choose between tippers and sourspots at will.

Consider the following scenario or at least something similiar yes this was from the Zone montage it probably isnt the best scenario example but as long as it helps explain my point.

Assume this is at ~100% and that Marth reacts to a Lucas double jumping with an airdodge offstage by jumping back himself to punish Lucas. Due to Marth's position at the time he reacted and Lucas' higher aerial mobility, Marth was unable to choose to kill Lucas with a tipper Fair or rather it would have been very difficult to do so. This becomes more relevant offstage where marth's options are limited (i.e he cant up b or land and punish).

And that leads me to answer your next question, it's not that Lucina wants to hit with the base of her sword it's that she can (without losing reward) if the situation calls for it. In the situation described above, Lucina's fair would have killed.

Here's a more common scenario. Say the opponent whiffs/mispaces a move right in front of you or unsafely on your shield. If this was at Mid-High percents or near the ledge Lucina can simply Fsmash you for a devestating punish. Marth's Fsmash on the other hand depends on the opponents position, in this case it is not possible for him to land a tipper unless the opponent is in place for it, and if the opponent is not, he could choose to use a different option but his reward for the punish would have been significantly less than Lucina's. A stronger base may not be much use for zoning but it helps keep Lucina dangerous even when not at optimal range.

I'm just gonna say it can we have the Marth lucina debate banned from this board?

What's wrong with the Marcina discussion? I find it quite interesting and they are very relevant to the current Meta especially with the discrepancy on their viabilities and tier placements along with their recent rise in performance.

 

[FeelMeUp]

All I'll say is that It's hard to not argue Marth being a good step above her when I randomly get rage tipper fsmashed at 60 and die.
or get hit with jab>uair>fair>ftilt and die at obscenely low %s
or get smacked with a tipper fair offstage
but marth isn't anywhere near as good as people thinks, imo, and having awful matchups vs the two best characters in the game forever stunts his potential rising.

 

[Bowserboy3]

As a Rosalina main myself

Main? Mate, you have a new "main" every couple of weeks. You'll be using Cloud again next week (which, if I'm honest, I don't know why you stopped using him in the first place actually. Your Cloud was mean).

---

But yes, I also disagree with ZeRo putting Rosalina as the best character in the game. Disregarding the fact that I also main Rosalina (since launch!) and have lots of experience with the character, there are a few significant factors that I feel means she cannot be ranked as the best character, or at the very least, not the best character right now.

For a start, there is of course the Meta Knight matchup. I don't care how the matchup can be "uncommon", it's still a matchup that is so bad for Rosalina. It's like saying that because theft is usually uncommon, you can leave all your doors open and unlocked. You just don't do it, because it's a threat, and that's what it's like with Rosalina and Meta Knight; the matchup is a threat, so just because it's uncommon, it doesn't mean we should downplay it's significance.

Adding onto this fact, is that there is no other top tier character with a matchup as bad as this. Sheik struggles/loses worst to characters like Lucario and (supposedly) Mario. Sonic, apparently, doesn't even have any bad matchups, 1 at most, and they aren't notably bad matchups like Rosalina vs Meta Knight. What's more, Rosalina has more even/slightly one sided matchups (like a 45:55, vice versa) than the other top tiers, having to be careful around characters like Marth, Lucina, and even characters like Shulk, just due to the fact that they can all threaten Luma safer than other characters, which brings me onto another point.

There is, what I am calling "counterplay" to Rosalina, and that's the "get rid of Luma" strategy. Sure, for some characters, this sometimes means take a hit to deal one, but the counterplay is still there; it's something the opponent can do to take advantage of Rosalina. What is the counterplay to Sheik? What about Sonic? Diddy? That's right, there isn't really true counterplay to these characters other than "try not to get hit by their stuff". Essentially, when playing these characters, you play their game, and try not to get hit by it. Facing Diddy with a banana? You have to be careful not to get hit by it. You don't stop Sheik using her needles, for example. With Rosalina, you can prevent her from playing her game, and make her sweat a little, so to speak.

Finally, we have to look at results, and you cannot ignore these when ranking characters. To keep this short, people like Nairo, Ally, ZeRo himself, and even lesser thought about players like Pink Fresh can all win a huge tournament using characters like ZSS, Mario, Diddy and Bayonetta, SOLO. Dabuz, almost always has to switch to Olimar, either because Olimar can handle a specific character better than Rosalina, or the fact that the player he is against knows how to exploit Rosalina pretty well. This alone shows a whole lot about Rosalina's true potential if you ask me, when her best player can't reliably solo her, or win in tournaments.

All in all, I still think Rosalina is a fantastic character, top 5 for sure, but in no way is she the best character in the game.

However, the "opeenion" has been cast by ZeRo now, so it's going to be hard to convince people otherwise, because apparently, what ZeRo says is gospel. It's amazing how many personal tier lists I have seen in the past week that rank Charizard as a mid tier character. He's been more common as a mid tier in the past week than during the whole lifespan of Smash 4.

 

[soniczx123]

Wow, you have a new "main" every couple of weeks. You'll be using Cloud again next week (which, if I'm honest, I don't know why you stopped using him in the first place actually, your Cloud was mean).

---

But yes, I also disagree with ZeRo putting Rosalina as the best character in the game. Disregarding the fact that I also main Rosalina (since launch!) and have lots of experience with the character, there are a few significant factors that I feel mean she cannot be ranked as the best character, or at the very least, not the best character right now.

For a start, there is of course the Meta Knight matchup. I don't care how the matchup can be "uncommon", it's still a matchup that is so bad for Rosalina. It's like saying that because theft is usually uncommon, you can leave all your doors open and unlocked. You just don't do it, because it's a threat, and that's what it's like with Rosalina and Meta Knight; the matchup is a threat, so just because it's uncommon, it doesn't mean we should downplay it's significance.

Adding onto this fact, is that there is no other top tier character with a matchup as bad as this. Sheik struggles/loses worst to characters like Lucario and (supposedly) Mario. Sonic, apparently, doesn't even have any bad matchups, 1 at most, and they aren't notably bad matchups like Rosalina vs Meta Knight. What's more, Rosalina has more even/slightly one sided matchups (like a 45:55, vice versa) than the other top tiers, having to be careful around characters like Marth, Lucina, and even characters like Shulk, just due to the fact that they can all threaten Luma safer than other characters, which brings me onto another point.

There is, what I am calling "counterplay" to Rosalina, and that's the "get rid of Luma" strategy. Sure, for some characters, this sometimes means take a hit to deal one, but the counterplay is still there; it's something the opponent can do to take advantage of Rosalina. What is the counterplay to Sheik? What about Sonic? Diddy? That's right, there isn't really true counterplay to these characters other than "try not to get hit by their stuff". Essentially, when playing these characters, you play their game, and try not to get hit by it. Facing Diddy with a banana? You have to be careful not to get hit by it. You don't stop Sheik using her needles, for example. With Rosalina, you can prevent her from playing her game, and make her sweat a little, so to speak.

Finally, we have to look at results, and you cannot ignore these when ranking characters. To keep this short, people like Nairo, Ally, ZeRo himself, and even lesser thought about players like Pink Fresh can all win a huge tournament using characters like ZSS, Mario, Diddy and Bayonetta, SOLO. Dabuz, almost always has to switch to Olimar, wither because Olimar can handle a specific character better than Rosalina, or the fact that the player he is against knows how to exploit Rosalina pretty well. This alone shows a whole lot about Rosalina's true potential if you ask me, when her best player can't reliably solo her, or win in tournaments.

All in all, I still think Rosalina is a fantastic character, top 5 for sure, but in no way is she the best character in the game.

However, the opinion has been cast by ZeRo now, so it's going to be hard to convince people otherwise, because apparently, what ZeRo says is gospel. It's amazing how many personal tier lists I have seen in the past week that rank Charizard as a mid tier character. He's been more common as a mid tier in the past week than during the whole lifespan of Smash 4.

>Sonic
>no counterplay

Please refer to my previous posts in regards to counterplay against Sonic.

 

[Bowserboy3]

>Sonic
>no counterplay

Please refer to my previous posts in regards to counterplay against Sonic.

Cool. will do. I didn't go into detail with Sonic, it was more just a name pick.

But luckily, that doesn't change my previous main point, in that there is Rosalina counterplay that people forget about.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I really do not understand what could possibly be wrong about discussing Marcina in this place, especially since discussion of the characters in the metagame and in the tier list is this thread sole reason to exist.
It is a legit complaint by Lucina mains just why would Marth be so high up while having Lucina be gatekeeper to low. Her being worse or not than Marth is not the point, here: The point here is her being so underrated in relation to Marth.
Anyway, to answer some previous questions:

Great post FamilyTeam , while Marth may be better, it shows that Lucina is no joke to his side, and she should be respected as well. I have one question to complement that post. In it, you show a lot of raw data like shieldstun and kill percentages, but what is your opinion on more practical things, like conditioning your opponent, baiting, PP shenanigans, footstool combos, etc.? Are they still the same or does one surpass the other?

Stuff that involves movement tech like PP works the same for both of them. PP Side Smash and Up Smash are good, PP Up and Down Tilt are excellent, and just the standard Pivot Side Tilt and Grab are already excellent.
Conditioning your opponent with Marth and Lucina makes me think of Shield Breaker, for me. You first learn their shield habits (which I'm already used to figuring out, by now), then you always make sure to have your opponent with less than 90% of the shield available, and when you predict there's gonna be a shield, you simply poke them with the Shield Breaker and see what you get. If you studied their shielding habits correctly, you're guaranted a shield break, and if your opponent is 40% or above, if you drag him to the ledge fast enough and do a fully charged Shield Breaker, you're guaranteed a stock. I've actually gotten plenty of stocks like that, recently.
I don't think there are any realistic footstool combos for Marcina atm. You have a bunch of overly flashy useless ones, but nothing that you'd actually see anyone use.

FamilyTeam After reading your post I kind of want to hear your opinion of Roy. Hes considered the weaker of the 2 clones but do you think his position in bottom 10 is justifiable?

My opinion on Roy being Bottom 10?
Completely unjustified.
Even back when I was a bit skeptical about Roy's abilities, I'd never put him in a tier list below Bottom 15. Nowadays, after getting closer to the Roy community and seeing what he is able to do in more recent games, I will admit I became far more optimistic about him, and I will say optimistic enough to consider maybe him being roughly where Lucina is right now in the official list.
Roy is a character with a bunch potentially very good moves trapped in some things that just aren't that cool. He has a great Jab, Tilts, Dash Attack, Smashes and a Neutral Air a lot of characters would kill for, but he still has to content with being a light, tall fastfaller with a pitiful disadvantage state, with no real options to get out of disadvantage other than the absolute generic. Not only that, but while he's fast in the air, he has poor acceleration, so his jumping paths are predictable, he can't really correct himself midair, and he has that alongside a recovery that goes in a pretty set path and doesn't even go far to begin with.
But putting the negatives aside, Roy actually has pretty neat combos at his disposal, alongside having, in my opinion, great potential in tech chases and roll reads. He has pretty good ground speed, gets quite a bit out of movement techs and he has some neat things out of his throws (Back Throw is bad at singles but I heard it's good at doubles!).
Giving my honest opinion here, even if it is wrong: Deep down, I think Roy is still the High-ish tier Marcina we know from this game, I just feel like he has things that are kind of setting him back. But hopefully we'll see more of him now, right?

 

[Bowserboy3]

he still has to content with being a light, tall fastfaller

Just a head's up, but Roy's a middleweight, weighing 95 units.

Interesting post though!

 

[FamilyTeam]

Just a head's up, but Roy's a middleweight, weighing 95 units.

Interesting post though!

Well I did remember his weight was 95.
It's hard to explain. Basically I meant it in the sense of how hard he gets comboed in relation to his weight. For someone who is 95, he gets damaged racked on him very quickly, so he still ends up arriving kill percent rather early.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Actually you're right, perhaps difficulty of use was a bad example on my part. I wouldn't put it past people to eventually become consistent at abusing sours or tippers at will to extend combos and what not. But there really are situations where it is too difficult or even impossible for Marth to choose between tippers and sourspots at will.

Consider the following scenario or at least something similiar yes this was from the Zone montage it probably isnt the best scenario example but as long as it helps explain my point.

Assume this is at ~100% and that Marth reacts to a Lucas double jumping with an airdodge offstage by jumping back himself to punish Lucas. Due to Marth's position at the time he reacted and Lucas' higher aerial mobility, Marth was unable to choose to kill Lucas with a tipper Fair or rather it would have been very difficult to do so. This becomes more relevant offstage where marth's options are limited (i.e he cant up b or land and punish).

And that leads me to answer your next question, it's not that Lucina wants to hit with the base of her sword it's that she can (without losing reward) if the situation calls for it. In the situation described above, Lucina's fair would have killed.

Here's a more common scenario. Say the opponent whiffs/mispaces a move right in front of you or unsafely on your shield. If this was at Mid-High percents or near the ledge Lucina can simply Fsmash you for a devestating punish. Marth's Fsmash on the other hand depends on the opponents position, in this case it is not possible for him to land a tipper unless the opponent is in place for it, and if the opponent is not, he could choose to use a different option but his reward for the punish would have been significantly less than Lucina's. A stronger base may not be much use for zoning but it helps keep Lucina dangerous even when not at optimal range.


What's wrong with the Marcina discussion? I find it quite interesting and they are very relevant to the current Meta especially with the discrepancy on their viabilities and tier placements along with their recent rise in performance.

For reference the percent at which Lucas would have to be to die to Lucina Fair would be roughly 130 at this position (with absolutely no DI or Rage). Lucas would have had to have been at 120-ish odd % near the ledge in that position. A Tipper Fair from Marth would've just outright killed him there. If it was at 100% neither character would be killing him off of that.

The difference is power is lesser when it's offstage but when it's on-stage the disparity between their aerials is a bit more clear~

However this situation, at 100%, has a win condition for either. Lucina's would be use Bair, Marth's would be autocancel, walk back, and Ftilt. If at all possible for either, anyways. They'd have to not run off the stage though in both instances =P

 

[Deleted member]

Big D (the current best main, besides Andy or Whiteout) made a Dedede matchup chart. Unsurprisingly, it's pretty optimistic.

I don't even think that Dedede even beats six characters though, much less ones like , or all of whom pressure him effectively or in Wii Fit's case, always force him to approach/camp him out.

 

[Yoshister]

Speaking of MU spreads, almost every I've seen has put at +1 or +2 for their character.

I'm wondering why, besides the fact that he's low tier.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Speaking of MU spreads, almost every I've seen has put at +1 or +2 for their character.

I'm wondering why, besides the fact that he's low tier.

That is exactly why, he's a low tier.
It's just like I said pages ago.
"Hmm I never played against this character but he is low tier so I'm going to assume he's negative haha"
This is why I'm not trusting any MU charts I see.

 

[Deleted member]

I mean, what matchups does Bowser Jr. have a decesive advantage in, especially those who are most prevalent in the meta? It's a hard question to ask due to the sparse amount of Jr. players along with his numerous issues putting him at a natural disadvantage with those with stronger tools.

And to be honest, some top players have made decent matchup charts before. Mr. R, DKWill and Nakat come to mind.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

To be fair though, Bowser Jr is just really bad.

Like, I often try to see the positives in a character but Bowser Jr just doesn't seem to be really good at anything. His neutral is awful. Jab? One of the worst in the game. Grab? One of the worse in the game. Tilts? Pretty underwhelming, only dtilt really fulfills its purporse adequately. Smashes? All of them are very impractical. Projectiles? One sucks, the other is pretty situational [although important for the character]. Dealing with pressure? A big hitbox and the only decent OoS option is the very risky upB out of shield. Approach options? Nothing is safe on block unless you have a Mecha Koopa in play, sideB is vulnerable and his aerials don't help him much. Aerials? Probably the least problematic aspect of the character with uair being just good, dair hurting shields, bair and fair packing range and nair having a hitbox that offers some nice coverage. Both his neutral and disadvantaged state are bad and his advantaged state is awkward and not easy to set up. He basically has all of the inherent weaknesses of a super-heavyheight without the strengths to make up for them. Or actually being a super-heavyweight for that matter.

I also don't exactly see what's bad about Big D's matchup spread. The matchups are overall very unfavorable for DDD and don't seem particularly optimistic.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Isn't this not exactly the right thread to be posting a bunch of MU charts? Especially 3/4 in the past 2 pages, give a bit of time for people to discuss them if any talk sparks.

Another thing, Familyteam's post is really good... but it's a post, in here, where it'll get drowned out by the random rantings.
A post of this caliber with this much important info might as well have been its own thread in the marth/lucina boards and then link to the thread in here where people can discuss it without the gigantic post being drowned out and being on its main intended area where it's easy to access for people in the future instead of needing to have the post bookmarked by others to link people later on.

Also, Yika you should've posted those MU charts in the yoshi boards instead. Think people have grown kinda numb talking about yoshi over the first year of sm4sh from me constantly going on about how bad Yoshi is or whenever he was brought up a herd of us jumped in here to chime in with our opinion. Cause there's not much discussion going on bout our charts.

Also also, I made one too but not posting it in here :^)
(It could probably do with some minor revisions though)

 

[FamilyTeam]

Another thing, Familyteam's post is really good... but it's a post, in here, where it'll get drowned out by the random rantings.
A post of this caliber with this much important info might as well have been its own thread in the marth/lucina boards and then link to the thread in here where people can discuss it without the gigantic post being drowned out and being on its main intended area where it's easy to access for people in the future instead of needing to have the post bookmarked by others to link people later on.

Don't worry. I was suggested to make a Lucina guide in the future, and I still have all of my sources, points and WebMs stored in a safe place. As soon as I'm done with college stuff, I can adapt it and post a guide with the same principles.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I don't think there are any realistic footstool combos for Marcina atm. You have a bunch of overly flashy useless ones, but nothing that you'd actually see anyone use.

I've seen sour fair > footstool > DB momentum cancel > dair lock for Marth, which seems like the most realistic one that isn't just for style. What's really peaked my interest recently is RAR uair > reverse fair > follow up. Not the easiest thing but SHAD uair makes it a bit easier to use against an opponent.

This example also brings up another point... if you are getting gimped OR being knocked away from a marth trying to get back to neutral, sometimes the sour spot is just as good.

I can't stress this enough. I don't care if I land a tipper or not resetting to neutral, I just want my opponent off me and a sour hit is still going to do that. It's a bit similar to recovering high with Falcon or Mac so you'll get hit closer to the stage or on stage. You're getting hit, but you aren't dying so it's worth it.