Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TDK]

Does everyone forget about Rich Brown? He got 17th at EVO, top 24 at Smash Con, and has beaten Aba in the ditto.

 

[Nobie]

Re: Potential

I think there's a stereotypical image of people who talk about potential, that it's more or less a guy pulling fortunes out of a paper bag and shouting things like, " I PREDICT THAT IN 2 YEARS' TIME, LINK MAINS WILL DISCOVER A GLITCH THAT ALLOWS UP B TO HAVE INFINITE RANGE." It's as if arguments about potential are considered random shots in the dark, opposite the cold hard facts we call results.

But there's a middle ground, and that's what theorycrafting is all about. Look at what you think the character is capable of, look at results, and try to reconcile the two. Not all predictions about potential are going to be right, but (I hope) people don't make predictions regarding potential just so that they can feel like Nostradamus. Instead, it's about trying to get closer to the truth. The other issue with arguments about potential is that there's this assumption that potential = tech discoveries, when it can just be a refinement of decision-making as a player base gets more attuned to its chosen character.

I'll give a few examples of the middle ground between "theory" and "data."

Back when Mewtwo got its first speed buff, I mentioned that the improved run speed was POTENTIALLY a really big deal for Mewtwo in a way those unfamiliar with the character might not understand. Even as a middling-at-best Mewtwo player myself, one thing I noticed was that Mewtwo's lack of traction meant a lot of things became unpunishable if they hit Mewtwo's shield. However, now there would be more edge cases that would work out in Mewtwo's favor. Similarly, a better run speed would allow for better follow-ups, and it would also let Mewtwo play the neutral better against the super fast characters (Falcon, Sonic, Fox) that could suffocate Mewtwo. Results have since shown that I was more or less right.

I certainly did not predict that Abadango would nair footstool the world. That was beyond my understanding of the character.

"But that's an easy one!" you might be saying. Mewtwo got buffed hard, of course everyone started looking harder at the character. Results substantiated it with Abadango's Pound victory. But consider this: isn't our understanding of a given character different now compared to what we thought a year ago? Even if we factor in patches and how they changed things a ton, there's also a lot of player knowledge that's accumulated.

Take Ness. I remember people saying even early on in Smash 4's life that Ness is POTENTIALLY going to fall down the tier list as time passed. People would get better at avoiding mistakes, thus reducing the power of rage back throw, for instance, and now we've seen that somewhat substantiated. But if you looked at ONLY Ness's results back then, there would've been nothing to indicate him ever falling out of top tier. Just because we lack knowledge now compared to our future selves doesn't make it pointless to try and figure out what we think the metagame will be like as everyone gets better and smarter and faster.

Hard coding, such as frame data, hitboxes, etc., will likely always limit what a character can do, as will physical human limits. But even if we don't discover the Link Ideon Sword Up B (look up that reference, anime fans), there's always the possibility that we're just not understanding a character well enough, or how that character should ideally create interactions between human players.

Shulk is the poster boy for "potential that will never go anywhere" because at the end of the day his attacks will always have their slow frame data. But rather than thinking about how to remove Shulk's key weakness, I wonder about the fact that Shulk literally changes a bunch of his properties with every Monado, necessitating that opponents play against each Monado Art differently. By controlling the pace of the match through continuous Monado changes, you can perhaps mess with the opponent's decision-making in a way that does not suddenly make Shulk have frame 6 aerials but at least creates hesitation in the opponent leading them to react not as quickly to your slower attacks.

Or what if a Ganondorf player could correctly determine the kind of player his opponent is after seeing five moves? I understand that this is a bit of an extreme example (and perhaps not terribly realistic), but given Ganondorf's hard read style and the fact that getting to know the opponent before they kill you is one of Ganondorf's greatest challenges, being able to assess an opposing player quickly would benefit Ganondorf in certain ways that might not apply to every character. For example, if a person could correctly predict tech chase situations 80% of the time, this would be a huge plus to Ganondorf, whose Flame Choke is the most guaranteed tech chase creation attack in the game because it works the same way from 0% to 999%.

That all said, @Das Koopa does good work, and I don't want to act like results-based tier lists and such are pointless. They can do what gut feelings can't. But there's nothing that says a gut feeling has to remain a gut feeling, which is why we talk about and discuss things. Just don't be pulling fortunes out of a paper bag.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo's scores are a conundrum to me.

I wholeheartedly disagree with notion of Mewtwo being an easy character to play (at least it's a lot different than most of the cast), but he's clearly proven that he's worth the time investment. WaDi, Rich Brown, and Hitaku have done well with the character. Mew^2 and LoF Blue have fallen off somewhat after Abadango's Revolution, but they still have garnered results, but he's still garnering the results of a "High Mid" character.

The transition for mid tier to top tier is still going slow for him, even though his meta-game has rapidly progressed (and progressing) among his smallish player base.

I truly believe Mewtwo is top five character and is solo viable but still so many people view him as a niche top tier. The mount of people who believe, for example Ryu is a better character is sort of crazy to me.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

They need to fix the rules in the US for that though

What about Europe though? Albeit very small, Brawler and Gunner do have some sort of usage somewhere in the world (don't ask me where, lol) as they are represented on Das Koopa's data, so why aren't we seeing similar numbers (or rather why are we seeing no results at all) for Mii Gunner? We even have Jiggs results now so is it representation being Mii Gunner's problems, or is it the possibility that the character might just be a hot piece of garbage comparatively to the rest of the cast, or, of course, a mix of both?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Or what if a Ganondorf player could correctly determine the kind of player his opponent is after seeing five moves? I understand that this is a bit of an extreme example (and perhaps not terribly realistic), but given Ganondorf's hard read style and the fact that getting to know the opponent before they kill you is one of Ganondorf's greatest challenges, being able to assess an opposing player quickly would benefit Ganondorf in certain ways that might not apply to every character. For example, if a person could correctly predict tech chase situations 80% of the time, this would be a huge plus to Ganondorf, whose Flame Choke is the most guaranteed tech chase creation attack in the game because it works the same way from 0% to 999%.

"What if literally a god showed up playing Ganondorf?"

Well, my expectation would be he'd do no better than he would on any other character, and probably quite a bit worse than most of them.

 

[Megamang]

The fact that a very large amount of tournaments simply dont allow the character in any form, and even more in a gimped form, cannot be discounted. This is discouraging for players of that char even in different regions. Much like when a stage your char is good at gets banned, that surely makes you slightly uneasy about where stuff is heading.

 

[Rizen]

I truly believe Mewtwo is top five character and is solo viable but still so many people view him as a niche top tier. The mount of people who believe, for example Ryu is a better character is sort of crazy to me.

My objection to having as a top 5 character (this goes for and sort of / who are worse, too) isn't that he couldn't be top 5 but rather are all better suited to be top 5 than him. Sort of like bottom tier where "somebody has to be last", somebody has to be top 5 and some contenders are more deserving of a spot.

 

[Y2Kay]

My objection to having as a top 5 character (this goes for and sort of / who are worse, too) isn't that he couldn't be top 5 but rather are all better suited to be top 5 than him. Sort of like bottom tier where "somebody has to be last", somebody has to be top 5 and some contenders are more deserving of a spot.

Not gonna lie, Mewtwo's is more deserving of a top 5 spot than Cloud.

And I was talking about for the future of the character's meta, not necessarily current time.

 

[FeelMeUp]

To be honest with you, Mewtwo has a myriad of absurdly overpowered tools and not enough weaknesses to balance them out. He has Diddy syndrome where some of them are so hard to work around that using the same 3-4 moves over and over again can win you entire sets at low and midlevel play.
Even once you get past that and break into the higher levels where it becomes possible to exploit things like his vulnerability to crossup rolls, mediocre disadvantage, and weight problems(which doesnt even come in to play a lot of the time because of how ****ing fast he is compared to the amount of range he was given....) the positives he has completely outweigh the disadvantages.
Would not be surprised if people started putting him on tier lists as #3-5

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ignore this

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Far chance of that happening though. Trela's picking up Mewtwo to cover Ryu's bad matchups and recently won a Houston event with it.

Maybe he'll be the Mewtwo America needs.

Either him, Rich Brown, or ESAM

Mewtwo has a lot more top 5 potential than Cloud and Mario. He is possibly Sheiks only counter, he beats Rosa, he beats Cloud, he beats Mario, and I'm a bit iffy on the Sonic matchup but it seems even when I play it. Honestly hes broken and the only thing keeping him in check is the Diddy matchup. Without that I feel like he could be the next Brawl MK

 

[Nobie]

I think Mii Swordfighter gets no love because he's just kind of boring. Yeah, that's subjective and all, but a character that's slow on the ground, slow in the air, and doesn't have a particularly unique play style isn't going to get people chomping at the bit to use him.

Brawler has a history of jank. Mii Gunner has a dedicated projectile-based play style. Swordfighter has, a cool tornado move I guess?

From what I see, most people go towards Swordfighter BECAUSE he's low tier, so I feel like he'd only really attract players if he were really good or really bad.

If I had to play Swordfighter, I'd go with whichever Side B is like Quick Draw, and whichever Down B is like Falcon Kick. I feel like the extra mobility is helpful and makes the character more fun to play.

 

[L9999]

We could always hope Trela decides to main him for real instead of just trolling everybody at one tournament.

Swordfighter does have some strong points. UAir is legitimately gross (16% strong, lingers, good vertical range, and autocancels) and DTilt comes out faster and has less cooldown than Marth's, along with better followup potential (AFAIK about the followup though). He also has one of the better grab games of all the sword characters.

If Mii Swordfighter wasn't so sluggish in everything (frame 7 jumpsquat, bottom 20 run speed/air speed, 60 and above FAF in a lot of things, 8 frames and above startup) and had a recovery that is not trash he would be at least a decent character.

I think Mii Swordfighter gets no love because he's just kind of boring. Yeah, that's subjective and all, but a character that's slow on the ground, slow in the air, and doesn't have a particularly unique play style isn't going to get people chomping at the bit to use him.

Brawler has a history of jank. Mii Gunner has a dedicated projectile-based play style. Swordfighter has, a cool tornado move I guess?

From what I see, most people go towards Swordfighter BECAUSE he's low tier, so I feel like he'd only really attract players if he were really good or really bad.

If I had to play Swordfighter, I'd go with whichever Side B is like Quick Draw, and whichever Down B is like Falcon Kick. I feel like the extra mobility is helpful and makes the character more fun to play.

Only masochists play 1111 SF. I rather give SF Chakram to get followups and an actual projectile, and Reflector Down B to prevent being camped.

 

[Kofu]

If Mii Swordfighter wasn't so sluggish in everything (frame 7 jumpsquat, bottom 20 run speed/air speed, 60 and above FAF in a lot of things, 8 frames and above startup) and had a recovery that is not trash he would be at least a decent character.

Frame 7 jumpsquat is what really kills him IMO. Good aerials but takes him forever to get there, and doesn't have the projectiles and muscle that Robin has (plus Robin's airspeed is average, not bad).

I like Swordfighter but for the most part what he does best can be done better by other swordies. Cloud in particular kind of stole SF's NAir, UAir,and BAir, and with 10x the mobility to boot.

Anecdotal thought, but you can kind of simplify the Miis into amalgams of two regular characters, at least as far as normals go. Brawler is Fox and Diddy (and somehow manages to be rather bad in 1111), Gunner is Samus and Villager (but with a regular grab), and Swordfighter is Link and Cloud (with a strange splash of Kirby).

 

[Laken64]

Either him, Rich Brown, or ESAM

Mewtwo has a lot more top 5 potential than Cloud and Mario. He is possibly Sheiks only counter, he beats Rosa, he beats Cloud, he beats Mario, and I'm a bit iffy on the Sonic matchup but it seems even when I play it. Honestly hes broken and the only thing keeping him in check is the Diddy matchup. Without that I feel like he could be the next Brawl MK

I can see rich brown being the one since he has been the most successful in the U.S. as of late however I can't really see ESAM being the Mewtwo because he also said he secondaries along with as well as trela now using for certain matchup. The only other Mewtwo main in the states that is closest to rich is Wadi imo. His only drawback from competing with rich for best U.S Mewtwo is lack of travel.

The main thing I want to point out is not only is finding success as a stand alone character in tournaments but top players such as ESAM and Trela are starting to look into him as a patch up for their weak matchups for their respective characters. My question is will we possibly see the rise of secondaries? Although is a strong secondary in his own right being easy to pick up and improve as of this moment I can see some players flocking to . He may be harder to pick up and use effectively at first, but when refined you're looking at a character that doesn't have to fear dying extremely early to gimps such as and having just as much reward with his only weaknesses being his tall and light frame and which would be a nice thing to fall back on if you're down 1-0 in bracket and you're main isn't cutting it.

Any thoughts?

 

[Deleted member]

Either him, Rich Brown, or ESAM

Mewtwo has a lot more top 5 potential than Cloud and Mario. He is possibly Sheiks only counter, he beats Rosa, he beats Cloud, he beats Mario, and I'm a bit iffy on the Sonic matchup but it seems even when I play it. Honestly hes broken and the only thing keeping him in check is the Diddy matchup. Without that I feel like he could be the next Brawl MK

>Mewtwo legitimately being compared to Brawl MK

justanotherdayincci.bmp

To seriously address your points, I don't see how Mewtwo constitutes as a "broken" character in any way whatsoever. Even just looking at him all-around I'm not seeing as to what makes him oppressive as characters like or . He does not beat Cloud either, even if he does relatively well in the matchup.

 

[Gunla]

I think Mii Swordfighter gets no love because he's just kind of boring. Yeah, that's subjective and all, but a character that's slow on the ground, slow in the air, and doesn't have a particularly unique play style isn't going to get people chomping at the bit to use him.

Swordie is sadly just kind of bad. Give him his specials, he's just okay. Without them, he's just a sluggish and slow character with specials that don't really mesh too well. He has some very powerful normals but his kit limits him so much in the speed department. He gets camped fairly easily and gets stomped on by a large chunk of the cast.

Brawler's magic is far more appealing and more rewarding, but mainly it comes from his specials giving him a solid toolset that is mainly hindered by range issues (and also probably is the big factor as to why Brawler is the most successful at tournament play; fast, notorious and he's got a kill move in the form of HK). Without them he just has a pretty nice dthrow that doesn't do too much when you get your opponent into higher %s. Gunner is the most workable with his 1111s, though; I can't even say giving them their specials is an outright upgrade because the versatility is quite real.

Brawler is Fox and Diddy (and somehow manages to be rather bad in 1111)

I'd honestly compare him his kit more to Mario and Zero Suit in 2122 (solid aerials and normals with an insanely good nair, along with a special that kills early and a flip kick recovery/mixup move that can be used to follow up with said kill move). Overall, 2122 likes to play like a combo character at early %s (one grab is 22%, either by using Dthrow -> Piston Punch or HK), and either get the kill from an HK around 60% at the ledge, soft nair -> Onslaught tech chasing at 110-130 depending on the stage, bair offstage edgeguards at 120 or emergency fthrow kills at around 150.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think the reason people play careful against Marth is because he has a lot of stuff that flows off of his jab as of now, and a lot of it doesn't even require Tipper Jab. There's Jab > Uair (easy to do once you practice and learn the % window since rising tipper Uair is free), Jab > Ftilt, the list goes on. Jab > Utilt which kills off the top, etc. Bum rushing Marth with afrormentioned characters is usually a strong idea but the reason you see players falter with it at high % is the threat of getting jabbed and killed from it. The plethora of options that stem from Marth's jab is quite frankly, ****ing terrifying. Tipper FSmash isn't even the most nonsense thing about the character, it may kill you early but it's far from what you're actually going to die to a lot of the time against Marth, which is usually his Fair, his Ftilt, his Utilt, or his Uair. I also can't wait for Marth players to start abusing Rising Uair as it pretty much auto-tips on anyone in front of him with no spacing requirement whatsoever. It's a decent surprise option, not really overpowered but it's good when thrown in unpredictably. Rage makes it much stronger, as per most of Marth's killing attacks. Realistically though, right now a large part of the reason Marth is even good is because his jab is so damn effective now, going from a horrid garbage move to what it is now.

I also feel like an often glossed over aspect of Marth is how good his attack speed is for his current range. A lot of his aerials, while lacking in active frames and being somewhat commital, all come out rather fast for the distance they cover (and as of now they kill as well! Very nice.) This creates a sort of "Mario" effect, where you can play moderately reactively with aerials because of their speed.

Also Marth is one of the few characters with a move that's invincible on Frame 1 with a significant amount of invul to boot! Air Dolphin Slash, namely. Grounded version is good enough too (F3 invul though, not quite the dazzling star his air version is.). Oh, did I mention Jab > Up+B can work as well, albeit a bit strangely?

I think you missed the point of my post.
Out of all the things you listed, what does Lucina NOT have?

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I think you missed the point of my post.
Out of all the things you listed, what does Lucina NOT have?

A multitude of reliable kill options off of jab. Lucina isn't going to kill you with an aerial or a tilt follow up after jab, Marth will. Even jab > dancing blade is a more reliable method of killing for Marth than it is Lucina. She lacks the reward that Marth has for playing the same play style.

 

[Ffamran]

To be honest with you, Mewtwo has a myriad of absurdly overpowered tools and not enough weaknesses to balance them out. He has Diddy syndrome where some of them are so hard to work around that using the same 3-4 moves over and over again can win you entire sets at low and midlevel play.
Even once you get past that and break into the higher levels where it becomes possible to exploit things like his vulnerability to crossup rolls, mediocre disadvantage, and weight problems(which doesnt even come in to play a lot of the time because of how ****ing fast he is compared to the amount of range he was given....) the positives he has completely outweigh the disadvantages.
Would not be surprised if people started putting him on tier lists as #3-5

Just wondering, but what are Mewtwo's "myriad of absurdly overpowered tools"? Dtilt and Fair are the only things that pops up other than Mewtwo's air dodge, rolls, and sidestep. Stuff like Up Smash from a dash or run and Shadow Ball are relatively tame e.g. if Shadow Ball had a melee hitbox like in Melee and like Lucario's Aura Sphere, but kept everything else it has, then holy hell, that would be an amazing option while also being a power creep on Lucario's since it would pretty much do everything Lucario's does, some better and some worse, but be on a character with the speed to abuse it heavily.

 

[ぱみゅ]

A multitude of reliable kill options off of jab. Lucina isn't going to kill you with an aerial or a tilt follow up after jab, Marth will. Even jab > dancing blade is a more reliable method of killing for Marth than it is Lucina. She lacks the reward that Marth has for playing the same play style.

Lucina DOES have a jab game, while her aerials might not kill outright, they still are high-damaging, might put the opponent offstage (her favorite place to be), and jab either 50/50's or even true combos into Fsmash at relevant percentages.
I miiiight agree that Marth's is more dangerous as he has tons of kill options, but may also need godlike reaction and split-second decision making, to know exactly what move will kill in specific scenarios.

WHATEVER THE CASE IS, it still beats me why do people respect, in-game, one character's space more than the other, both have the exact same counterplay.

 

[Shaya]

The counter play has the same reward, but significantly different risk between the two characters; hence 'respect'. You literally spelled it out to yourself.

If I'm at 120% and Lucina is in the air, challenging her isn't dangerous to my stock. Against Marth? that stray fair(etc) is my stock.
The logic behind Marth's counterplay has always been "attack second" because of ending lag, but it's a double edged sword (heh heh heh) as this requires being outside of his range (dodge reads stray from this, but because of the obnoxious range buffs the reliability of these options were gutted) and hence moving into his range which is 'ding ding ding' TIPPER DANGER. This 'shortfall' or reasonable wiggle room afforded to Marth in his inherent counter play (both of their abilities and pressure scale with reaction speed) does not work the same for Lucina.

Obviously this is less relevant at sub-KO percent and the amount of grounded respect Lucina musters because of Forward Smash starts earlier too (which she loses a lot of the moment she moves, while Marth maintains KO-pressure throughout him dashing/jumping: aerials, DB, pivot tilts)
However, in a game where just about every character's bread and butter is stupidly safe on block, there is a lot more meta-focus on whiff punishing, which does tend to also lean in Marth's favour - he has the ultimate/best whiff punish tool in the cast.

You seem to be under-appreciating the niceties of having a sour spot on an amazing combo tool such as jab as well.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Just wondering, but what are Mewtwo's "myriad of absurdly overpowered tools"? Dtilt and Fair are the only things that pops up other than Mewtwo's air dodge, rolls, and sidestep. Stuff like Up Smash from a dash or run and Shadow Ball are relatively tame e.g. if Shadow Ball had a melee hitbox like in Melee and like Lucario's Aura Sphere, but kept everything else it has, then holy hell, that would be an amazing option while also being a power creep on Lucario's since it would pretty much do everything Lucario's does, some better and some worse, but be on a character with the speed to abuse it heavily.

Teleport cancels, ridiculously good airdodge, low landing lag and FAF Nair that sets up into numerous other moves, and a ridiculously good anti-projectile game w/ Confusion and Shadow Ball. Also Shadow Ball Kinda is a ridiculous move, has the same FAF as prepatch luigi's fireball allowing it to setup into a ton of stuff when uncharged, while also having a giant Hitbox that deals a ridiculous amount of Damage while also destroying your shield when fully charged. It can frame trap a lot of character's recoveries if released correctly.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Teleport cancels, ridiculously good airdodge, low landing lag and FAF Nair that sets up into numerous other moves, and a ridiculously good anti-projectile game w/ Confusion and Shadow Ball. Also Shadow Ball Kinda is a ridiculous move, has the same FAF as prepatch luigi's fireball allowing it to setup into a ton of stuff when uncharged, while also having a giant Hitbox that deals a ridiculous amount of Damage while also destroying your shield when fully charged. It can frame trap a lot of character's recoveries if released correctly.

I was out but you did most of it for me.
A kill throw that ignores DI and stage positioning is ridiculous. Not only that, but it scales absurdly well with rage and is only helped by being on platforms.
Shadow Ball is Shadow Ball.
fair is legitimately a broken aerial in my opinion.
nair is fine but the things you can do afterwards for free are really dumb.
footstool disable in general is really irritating, but I tend to have problems with both the "main" footstool setups for how low they can kill(footstool disable kills ike at like 75, footstool metal blade kills most of the cast around the mid 50s/60s)
a lot of his hitboxes are suspect as hell for the reward they give(jab, dsmash, usmash, fair, dair)
like i said.
they gave too much speed and kill power. not only that, but they managed to give him one of the best reflectors, one of the best projectiles, one of the best edgeguarding kits, and failed to make his disadvantage complete ass to compensate for it.

 

[Ffamran]

fair is legitimately a broken aerial in my opinion.

It's only active for 3 frames, it has an average 30 recovery frames, it does not have insane range or coverage like Sheik's Fair nor is it disjointed even ever so slightly like Diddy's late Fair? or Marth's Fair. Is it a strong move? Yes. Is it broken? No. It doesn't even come close to the **** like Melee Falco Dair and Blaster, Brawl Falco Blaster, Melee Fox Uair, arguably Brawl Fox Fair and Dair, Brawl Meta Knight Mach Tornado? and Uair and Dair since this little guy was given a longsword that he could swing like a knife, or Melee Peach Down Smash. There is much, much worse than Smash 4 Mewtwo's patched Fair.

...but they managed to give him one of the best reflectors...

Is Mewtwo's Confusion as a reflect even that good? It reflects on the same frame it hits at frame 12. Take Mario whose Cape reflects at frame 6, half the frames of its startup. Mario's Cape has lower recovery to boot at 22 frames to Mewtwo's 30. As a reflect, Doc's Sheet could be considered better than Mario's Cape since it has more 2 more reflect frames. The only thing Confusion wins, as a reflect, would be its higher reflect frames of 24 frames to Doc's 17 and Mario's 15. If you need a reflect that's on-reaction, Mewtwo's isn't that good. Doc, Falco, Fox, Mario, and Zelda's are arguably better as reflects with Falco's being frame 1 reflect and having an estimated 33 reflect frames and Zelda's having 39 reflect frames and making her invincible on its frame 5 reflect frame. Falco's has the highest recovery at 37 frames which makes sense since as a move, it's a frame 5, 10 active, transcendent hit and as a reflect, you really do not want anyone to be able to spam a frame 1, 33 active reflect like that. Zelda's has similar recovery as the others at 32 frames, but you have to figure she's going to commit hard because Nayru's Love is a 59 total frame move.

 

[L9999]

I was out but you did most of it for me.
A kill throw that ignores DI and stage positioning is ridiculous. Not only that, but it scales absurdly well with rage and is only helped by being on platforms.
Shadow Ball is Shadow Ball.
fair is legitimately a broken aerial in my opinion.
nair is fine but the things you can do afterwards for free are really dumb.
footstool disable in general is really irritating, but I tend to have problems with both the "main" footstool setups for how low they can kill(footstool disable kills ike at like 75, footstool metal blade kills most of the cast around the mid 50s/60s)
a lot of his hitboxes are suspect as hell for the reward they give(jab, dsmash, usmash, fair, dair)
like i said.
they gave too much speed and kill power. not only that, but they managed to give him one of the best reflectors, one of the best projectiles, one of the best edgeguarding kits, and failed to make his disadvantage complete *** to compensate for it.

Mewtwo doesn't have a GTFO move/get out of pressure move and his ledge options are terrible. Mewtwo is still light and a huge target. He is not a walking sandbag like ...R.O.B or Zelda, but still something to be considered.

 

[Megamang]

Ive always suspected greninja as a possible tough MU for mewtwo. Fair wars can actually trade in his favor, and while his horizontal mobility is comperable to m2's his vertical mobility blows m2 out of the water. Quick shurikans can stifle shadow ball charge, and if he starts reflecting it you can charge them to mess with his timing.

Greninja's nair, as we all know, can confirm for ludicrous damage. This is obviously threatening to m2... but its even scarier to him specifically because of his double jump not being a quick escape option. This weakness, to me, screams out for JC usmash just ruining his day and killing him very very early.


Not to mention, greninja is actually fast enough on the ground to continue to abuse m2's attempts to land. He has lots of good throw mixups where if you AD you either get SS'd or you get uair spiked into a footstool combo or just a usmash; m2 is used to airdodging frequently but against greninja you dont want to be airdodging... yet you kinda need to, or the frankly absurd dashgrab of greninja will keep chipping damage onto you via uthrow uair.


Greninja likes light characters. A well placed fair can end their stock very early, with almost no risk to gren. His shortness helps with m2 fair not being so painful. Mewtwos that roll like aba will find that a single well placed nair can kill them before they thought possible. Rolls away can eat a fair, or simple a dashgrab.


Finally... SSHC. Can you escape nair or usmash? Ill check through that thread tomorrow. But iirc, at the very least, you mitigate m2's strongest damaging throw. Speaking of which, gren's very fast fall speed will help a little vs uthrow, as will generally killing earlyish.

Due to weight differences, uthrow kill percentages are actually pretty close. And good luck grabbing a good greninja with that crappy grab range... and good luck ever avoiding his massive and fast dashgrab.

PPing back while m2 lands, baiting the fair or landing dtilt and just grabbing, uthrowing... i cant see how m2 really gets his footing in this MU.

Then he hits one fair and you take 60%, so its close to even. Thats every mu with m2 though.

 

[Rizen]

Is Mewtwo's Confusion as a reflect even that good? It reflects on the same frame it hits at frame 12. Take Mario whose Cape reflects at frame 6, half the frames of its startup. Mario's Cape has lower recovery to boot at 22 frames to Mewtwo's 30. As a reflect, Doc's Sheet could be considered better than Mario's Cape since it has more 2 more reflect frames. The only thing Confusion wins, as a reflect, would be its higher reflect frames of 24 frames to Doc's 17 and Mario's 15. If you need a reflect that's on-reaction, Mewtwo's isn't that good. Doc, Falco, Fox, Mario, and Zelda's are arguably better as reflects with Falco's being frame 1 reflect and having an estimated 33 reflect frames and Zelda's having 39 reflect frames and making her invincible on its frame 5 reflect frame. Falco's has the highest recovery at 37 frames which makes sense since as a move, it's a frame 5, 10 active, transcendent hit and as a reflect, you really do not want anyone to be able to spam a frame 1, 33 active reflect like that. Zelda's has similar recovery as the others at 32 frames, but you have to figure she's going to commit hard because Nayru's Love is a 59 total frame move.

I think it's more about the combination of reflector, movement option and command grab, plus Mew2's kit is really good. He has a charge shot esk shadow ball and a cape esk reflector. As a reflector it's okay but the whole package together is frighting.

 

[Yikarur]

Mewtu ist really easy to play. He has a lot of specific things but thats it. Mewtus Basics are so simple that everyone can pick-up Mewtu and be a mid-level threat. That's why I think Mewtu is very fitting as a pocket character to cover match-ups
You need to grind the Mewtu MU to understand how Mewtu functions. If you play Mewtu against someone who has never played a decent Mewtu before they get crushed hard.

What about Europe though? Albeit very small, Brawler and Gunner do have some sort of usage somewhere in the world (don't ask me where, lol) as they are represented on Das Koopa's data, so why aren't we seeing similar numbers (or rather why are we seeing no results at all) for Mii Gunner? We even have Jiggs results now so is it representation being Mii Gunner's problems, or is it the possibility that the character might just be a hot piece of garbage comparatively to the rest of the cast, or, of course, a mix of both?

We have about 4 Brawler players in the german community. I don't think a lot of people play Swordfighter or Gunner here tho.

 

[Yikarur]

Swordie is sadly just kind of bad. Give him his specials, he's just okay. Without them, he's just a sluggish and slow character with specials that don't really mesh too well. He has some very powerful normals but his kit limits him so much in the speed department. He gets camped fairly easily and gets stomped on by a large chunk of the cast.

He's not that bad ... but I don't like hiim either heh

Brawler's magic is far more appealing and more rewarding, but mainly it comes from his specials giving him a solid toolset that is mainly hindered by range issues (and also probably is the big factor as to why Brawler is the most successful at tournament play; fast, notorious and he's got a kill move in the form of HK). Without them he just has a pretty nice dthrow that doesn't do too much when you get your opponent into higher %s. Gunner is the most workable with his 1111s, though; I can't even say giving them their specials is an outright upgrade because the versatility is quite real.

Range isses? He's a Brawler so his speed and frame data


I'd honestly compare him his kit more to Mario and Zero Suit in 2122 (solid aerials and normals with an insanely good nair, along with a special that kills early and a flip kick recovery/mixup move that can be used to follow up with said kill move). Overall, 2122 likes to play like a combo character at early %s (one grab is 22%, either by using Dthrow -> Piston Punch or HK), and either get the kill from an HK around 60% at the ledge, soft nair -> Onslaught tech chasing at 110-130 depending on the stage, bair offstage edgeguards at 120 or emergency fthrow kills at around 150.[/QUOTE]

I'd honestly compare him his kit more to Mario and Zero Suit in 2122 (solid aerials and normals with an insanely good nair, along with a special that kills early and a flip kick recovery/mixup move that can be used to follow up with said kill move). Overall, 2122 likes to play like a combo character at early %s (one grab is 22%, either by using Dthrow -> Piston Punch or HK), and either get the kill from an HK around 60% at the ledge, soft nair -> Onslaught tech chasing at 110-130 depending on the stage, bair offstage edgeguards at 120 or emergency fthrow kills at around 150.

Brawler can chaingrab any character at low% until about 20-30% (dthrow, first hit fair, regrab) and he can footstool at that point to nair lock (this is consistent) to get a soft nair -> grab -> dthrow -> follow-up. Doing dthrow -> HK would be the worst thing you could do.
Flip Kick edge cancels should never hit anyone but Flip Kick itself is probably Brawlers very best move, because it's so versatile. (I would right more but work is calling )

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And I don't see Greninja players going to tournaments more than usual, just them actually getting better results more which just indicates that they're getting better instead of it just being a "flavor of the month" thing.

- istudying traveled the USA for a bit during the summer. There were also more tournaments in Europe that satisifed Koopa's criteria to be considered. Istudy attended quite a bunch of them.
- Oisiitofu appeared. He competes in a very mid-tier heavy region where Sonic and Sheik are somewhat rare, especially on his level of play.
- The tournaments Oisiitofu attends are also consistently treated as Category 2 by Koopa which, as I've explained before, is generous and gives Greninja's results an additional boost.
- Some had 2 or 3 really good results, possibly at occasions where big hitters attended something in the states like CEO or EVO.
- Other people like Venia, Waveguider [?] or Illusion probably contributed a couple of points as well but I think most of Greninja's results come from istudying, Oisii and Some.

Greninja doing so well on the rankings isn't really that surprising if you think about it. The circumstances during the whole summer were just pretty much ideal for him - istudying having time and incentive to travel the states, Oisiitofu appearing in a region that's generally pretty mid-tier friendly and Some possibly gaining some sort of consistency ... all of that is pretty huge in the 15th-25th area. If something similar happened to, say, Villager ... or Pikachu ... or some other good but underplayed character we'd see something similar.

Also, I'm pretty sure Greninja won't be able to maintain these results. Now that istudying is back in Europe again he won't get to contribute as many points. The few tournaments that meet Koopa's criteria during the fall season will likely be ranked as Category 1 for the most part [the biggest upcoming tournament in Europe that I'm aware of will take place in the winter break] too. Some won't be able to benefit from Japan's general inconsistency forever [in his case it's mostly be a case of whether he can snatch some big-name wins. Abadango and Kamemushi, for instance, are not out of reach for him] so it'll be up to how well Oisiitofu does for the most part. So until winter at least, I would expect Greninja to somewhat fall off again.

 

[ReRaze]

Just wanna point out that y'all keep talking as if Lucina's aerials are weak and don't kill or that she doesn't have kill confirms of her own which are exclusively more rewarding to her than for Marth. If Nair > Fsmash wasn't a thing I'd honestly be on the marth bandwagon by now.
After the patch her aerials are scary if you get hit at 100% anywhere past the ledge you die, jab > aerial / up b do kill quite reliably especially at the ledge. Sure a raw fair or ftilt onstage wont kill like marth's tipper but it definitely puts you into a postion where the next aerial is pretty much guaranteed to kill, as for marth there is still the chance that you will land the sour instead, as many of you like to put it, it's a "stray" tipper not a guaranteed one.

She doesn't have the raw kill power of tippers and I'm not gonna try argue against how scary marth's are or how it rewards his playstyle more but alot of people seem to dismiss Lucina's own strengths or even undermine it.

 

[Y2Kay]

- istudying traveled the USA for a bit during the summer. There were also more tournaments in Europe that satisifed Koopa's criteria to be considered. Istudy attended quite a bunch of them.
- Oisiitofu appeared. He competes in a very mid-tier heavy region where Sonic and Sheik are somewhat rare, especially on his level of play.
- The tournaments Oisiitofu attends are also consistently treated as Category 2 by Koopa which, as I've explained before, is generous and gives Greninja's results an additional boost.
- Some had 2 or 3 really good results, possibly at occasions where big hitters attended something in the states like CEO or EVO.
- Other people like Venia, Waveguider [?] or Illusion probably contributed a couple of points as well but I think most of Greninja's results come from istudying, Oisii and Some.

Greninja doing so well on the rankings isn't really that surprising if you think about it. The circumstances during the whole summer were just pretty much ideal for him - istudying having time and incentive to travel the states, Oisiitofu appearing in a region that's generally pretty mid-tier friendly and Some possibly gaining some sort of consistency ... all of that is pretty huge in the 15th-25th area. If something similar happened to, say, Villager ... or Pikachu ... or some other good but underplayed character we'd see something similar.

Also, I'm pretty sure Greninja won't be able to maintain these results. Now that istudying is back in Europe again he won't get to contribute as many points. The few tournaments that meet Koopa's criteria during the fall season will likely be ranked as Category 1 for the most part [the biggest upcoming tournament in Europe that I'm aware of will take place in the winter break] too. Some won't be able to benefit from Japan's general inconsistency forever [in his case it's mostly be a case of whether he can snatch some big-name wins. Abadango and Kamemushi, for instance, are not out of reach for him] so it'll be up to how well Oisiitofu does for the most part. So until winter at least, I would expect Greninja to somewhat fall off again.

Has iStud really contributed a lot this summer? It seems like he hasn't attended as much or traveled as much since late spring.

I also think your theory is forgetting Elexiao. Though I don't think he's better than iStudying, I believed he's a significant greninja in our meta right now.

Some and Venia are pretty much "loose cannons" when it comes to tournament attendance, but both can do serious damage in bracket(p sure Some beat Aba already). I think as school starts up we'll lose some tourney attendance from iStud and maybe Elexiao too.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Lucina DOES have a jab game, while her aerials might not kill outright, they still are high-damaging, might put the opponent offstage (her favorite place to be), and jab either 50/50's or even true combos into Fsmash at relevant percentages.
I miiiight agree that Marth's is more dangerous as he has tons of kill options, but may also need godlike reaction and split-second decision making, to know exactly what move will kill in specific scenarios.

WHATEVER THE CASE IS, it still beats me why do people respect, in-game, one character's space more than the other, both have the exact same counterplay.

"A multitude of reliable kill options off of jab. Lucina isn't going to kill you with an aerial or a tilt follow up after jab, Marth will."

The point isn't that she doesn't have follow ups after jab, the point is that most of them won't kill. At best she's putting you off stage where she can edge guard, which is good for her, but Marth can do that too and his edge guarding is still more likely to kill simply because of the tipper.

Just wanna point out that y'all keep talking as if Lucina's aerials are weak and don't kill or that she doesn't have kill confirms of her own which are exclusively more rewarding to her than for Marth. If Nair > Fsmash wasn't a thing I'd honestly be on the marth bandwagon by now.
After the patch her aerials are scary if you get hit at 100% anywhere past the ledge you die, jab > aerial / up b do kill quite reliably especially at the ledge. Sure a raw fair or ftilt onstage wont kill like marth's tipper but it definitely puts you into a postion where the next aerial is pretty much guaranteed to kill, as for marth there is still the chance that you will land the sour instead, as many of you like to put it, it's a "stray" tipper not a guaranteed one.

She doesn't have the raw kill power of tippers and I'm not gonna try argue against how scary marth's are or how it rewards his playstyle more but alot of people seem to dismiss Lucina's own strengths or even undermine it.

No one has said that she doesn't have kill confirms of her own, at the same time though Marth has his own variants of those confirms too. Nair > fsmash turns into nair > usmash, and while it might not kill as early as Lucina's nair > fsmash it's still going to get the job done and isn't as reliant on stage position, and honestly think it's a good thing that usmash isn't as powerful as Lucina's fsmash because then Marth'd have a way over tuned up smash which as we discussed with Mario's up smash vs Link's up tilt could be done out way more movement options.

Even if Lucina's hitbox did as much as Marth's tipper, I'd still choose Marth over Lucina because having a sour spot means he has twice as many options as Lucina.

 

[wm1026]

Just a question about the Koopalings. In just about every tier list I have seen they are in low tier. Which I'm not arguing against or anything, I am just asking why. What are their glaring weaknesses? Disjoint? Kill confirm? Slow? Just curious

 

[Bowserboy3]

So there are actually complaints about Mewtwo now? Wow...

First we complain he is bad, and needs buffs (when in reality, he was never really bad in the first place, just failed to stand out, but that's by the by). Sakurai gives us buffs, and now that we got what we wanted, people complain? What even?

Like, I could maybe understand if all of Mewtwo's tools were insane, or if he was just as easy to play as pre-patch Luigi for example, but he really doesn't have a kit full of insane tools, and he is actually incredibly tough to play correctly. He doesn't have stupid easy combos. He doesn't have stupid easy kill confirms. He doesn't survive forever. He isn't dominating anywhere right now. Like, I am really struggling to find a reason as to why Mewtwo is getting complaints.

Sure, Mewtwo does have some bonkers things; Fair is straight up one of the best aerials in the game. Having a spacing move that can outright KO from the neutral position is a huge boon for the few characters that posses them (Marth is one, for example), and Fair isn't just a spacing move. It doubles as a combo tool, approach tool, damage racker, finisher etc. His Nair is a pretty solid option too, which sets up into a multitude of different things, including his Footstool Disable combo. Shadow Ball of course is essentially Luigi Fireball and Charge Shot combined into one, creating a fantastic projectile that you can mix up. His Up Throw is arguably the best kill throw in the game. His ground speed also benefits him, being able to put his strong moves to good use.

However, people are forgetting that Mewtwo has some extremely poor traits. Of course there's the obvious; he's a huge target that can be hit easily, and get's KO'd when sneezed on. This is a HUGE factor that helps keep him in check. Are people also forgetting that Mewtwo has the worst tumble in the entire game? Seriously, it's incredibly easy to hit Mewtwo with moves that look like they shouldn't even hit because his tumble animation is so poor. Teleport leaves him incredibly vulnerable. He also lacks a reliable get off me option. He also has some questionable moves, like Ftilt and some of Utilt's hitboxes can be unreliable at times. Aside from Fair and Nair, his other aerials can sometimes be troublesome to use due to their below average start up.

Tie all these facts in to each other, and you have a character that is extremely dangerous up close, but if he misses even one attack or selects the wrong option, he can be punished incredibly hard. Essentially, Mewtwo wants to be playing up close and in your face, but that's exactly where he is most vulnerable, and is one of the most vulnerable characters up close. While he has the advantage, and is stringing moves together, his advantage state is incredibly high. However, due to his weaknesses, the tables can turn if he selects the wrong option, or stays in when he should have retreated, and this gives him an incredibly poor disadvantage state. Due to this, his learning curve is very high, and while is relatively easy to pick up due to how simple some of his kit is (Fair, Up Throw, fast speed, great projectile), he's incredibly hard to master, and can be very susceptible to momentum shifts. Mewtwo essentially has to get in, deal some damage, and then get out at the right moment, and he does have all the tools to do this successfully, but must be careful to be taken advantage of.

To be honest, I don't understand why anybody would be complaining about Mewtwo in the first place. It's not like he's the go-to character everybody is using, akin to pre patch Diddy, Sheik or Bayonetta. He's a character that is very good at what he does, but still has big flaws. I would say he's a very honest character, but any character with a Fair like that isn't, though you get what I mean; he does his job extremely well but gets punished extremely hard, essentially.

 

[DanGR]

Just a question about the Koopalings. In just about every tier list I have seen they are in low tier. Which I'm not arguing against or anything, I am just asking why. What are their glaring weaknesses? Disjoint? Kill confirm? Slow? Just curious

The character doesn't have a functional neutral. He has neat tools that don't work together until he has momentum, which is hard for him to gain. With patience and some MU knowledge, there are procedural ways to stuff out his neutral with little risk. Additionally, his upb has some pretty unfortunate interactions that help make his recovery bad. There are other things, but these stand out to me as the bigger problems.

 

[wm1026]

The character doesn't have a functional neutral. He has neat tools that don't work together until he has momentum, which is hard for him to gain. With patience and some MU knowledge, there are procedural ways to stuff out his neutral with little risk. Additionally, his upb has some pretty unfortunate interactions that help make his recovery bad.

What makes his neutral nonfunctional?

 

[DanGR]

What makes his neutral nonfunctional?

Sideb is a huge gimmick you can beat procedurally. His short hopped aerials aren't very safe zoning or spacing tools. (Can just use ground movement to mix up your positioning or shield, and dash attack the inevitable whiff) He doesn't have good ways to pressure a shield (bad grab, commitments on all aerials, and short range on grounded pokes). He just doesn't have anything that works in neutral. When he does win neutral somehow, mechakoopa's versatility as a trapping tool in advantage keeps him going. And he's actually a monster in advantage, so he's got that going for him I guess.

 

[ReRaze]

The point isn't that she doesn't have follow ups after jab, the point is that most of them won't kill. At best she's putting you off stage where she can edge guard, which is good for her, but Marth can do that too and his edge guarding is still more likely to kill simply because of the tipper.

You obviously missed the part where I clearly said she has followups after jab too, that kill, jab > fair/nair/bair will kill only a little later than marth's Jab > Ftilt when it starts to true combo. Not to mention an edge guard will lead to a kill for her too just about as often as Marth, since an edgeguard will normally lead to a gimp for Marcinas and if not, her aerials are now about as strong as prepatch Marth tipper so they WILL kill fairly early offstage.
Saying Marth is more likely to kill simply because of his tipper is wrong because landing that tipper is also tied to how skilled the Marth is at spacing, how skilled the opponent is at evading or how good their recovery is. It's not simple at all. Against better recoveries/opponents, chances are you're going to need to focus on even landing the fair let alone the tipper. If he lands the sour he will obviously be killing later than Lucina.

No one has said that she doesn't have kill confirms of her own, at the same time though Marth has his own variants of those confirms too. Nair > fsmash turns into nair > usmash, and while it might not kill as early as Lucina's nair > fsmash it's still going to get the job done and isn't as reliant on stage position, and honestly think it's a good thing that usmash isn't as powerful as Lucina's fsmash because then Marth'd have a way over tuned up smash which as we discussed with Mario's up smash vs Link's up tilt could be done out way more movement options.

I said you talked as if she didn't have kill confirms (figurative speech), you talked about Marth's kill confirms through Jab and how Lucina couldnt utilise it to the same effect without addressing the fact that she doesn't use those kill confirms, she has her own.

Marth's Nair Usmash? Usmash comes out 3 frames slower than Fsmash not to mention to land the Usmash you would need a sour nair. Chances are, that confirm won't work until very late, Not sure why you are bringing up stage positioning since if that was an issue Lucina could use her own Nair > Usmash which outclasses Marth's.
Also why would it not be a good thing? It's his sourspot it's supposed to be weaker.

But forget that, Why would Marth want to use Nair confirms? That's Lucinas thing. Marth has his jab confirms and Lucina her nair confirms, which in my opinion I find alot more reliable and powerful than Marth's jab confirms, simply because tipper mechaincs mess with his confirms (you need precise spacing) and DI also messes with it. With nair confirms there's none of that and they kill earlier too.

Even if Lucina's hitbox did as much as Marth's tipper, I'd still chose Marth over Lucina because having a sour spot means he has twice as many options as Lucina.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. If Lucina's sword did as much as Marth's tipper that would be flipping ridonkulous. Having "twice as many options" with a sour spot doesn't even matter because Lucinas options would be just so much stronger. But I digress.

Agreed, having the added option of choosing between sour and sweetspots for combos or kills is pretty neat but really in the heat of battle it might be quite difficult to actually choose the option you want especially against characters with even better options, mobility, etc (e.g the top tiers)