Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[arbustopachon]

This has been a good weekend for zards. Gotta search for some San and Blue stuff.

 

[Joey T.]

ZeRo's tier list summary (not only this one, all of them so far):
-I lost recently to this character, so he must be way better than people think. Examples: Lucario, Palutena, Rosalina
-I main this character(s), so they can't be in the top 5. Example: Diddy and Cloud now, Sheik when she was nerfed (remember how he said she wasn't good anymore to justify his drop, but now that he doesn't use her anymore she is #4)
-Random character way higher than it should be because """potential"""

I mean, he is a monster playing this game, and he has a lot of insight some of us can only wish to have, but I think that even if this is his personal tier list, he shouldn't avoid raw data like the Rosalina vs Meta Knight or Diddy's overall usage and placements in tournaments.

He complained a lot about the new 4br tier list, but I think it is way more spot-on than ZeRo's list. Besides, some of the reasons he didn't like the official list was Little Mac being low tier (it is on his Twitter), when he himself put him in low tier.

 

[blackghost]

zero saying diddy is a low risk low reward character is a reflection of how zero plays diddy. zero diddy is heavily reliant on dtilt and throw combos since those options as kill options were nerfed (its been discussed here) zero diddy (and shiek) both have falling out against other top players. theres a ot of growth with the character that zero hasn't done as of now. (meanwhile his shulk continues to improve)

 

[Ulevo]

People really exaggerate how bad the Meta Knight vs Rosalina match up is. This is not surprising since both characters are obscure and people rarely know what they are talking about for either. That being said, it is doable for Rosalina.

There are definitiely criticisms I have to both players here, more so to Abadango, but you can see the general idea on how this match up should be played.
Luma is a very powerful tool against Meta Knight and if the Rosalina is careful then Meta Knight will not kill Luma whenever he pleases.

You need to know the percents you can die at, and you need to play at the ledge at those percents. You need to offensively pressure when you have Luma, and play reserved without giving up much stage control when Luma is gone.

Anyway. With Meta Knight being a possible -1 I can definitely see Zero's view for her placement.

 

[my_T]

Then let's be honest. What move are you likely to use out of shield? Because DK doesn't really have great OoS options. His fastest moves are frame 5 (aside from aerial spinning kong), which are jab and utilt. And Jab and Utilt aren't great OoS options, especially when his back is turned.

Umm...Im aware of how trash DK's oos options are. If the opponent is in front i usually go for a grab if they are within range. If the opponent crosses up my shield i use a variety of options to keep my opponent guessing

Just because you shield a move doesn't mean you have to attack. Defensive options can be used. You can continue to shield but that's beaten by grabs. Sometimes it's best to use the opportunity to re-position yourself by rolling or dashing away. The problem with this is that you have to mix up your options. If you choose to do purely defensive options your opponent will catch on and punish with ease. Rolls, depending on which way you roll, will get punished by dash attacks/grabs/utilts. Spot dodge gets punished by jabs/grabs. Attacking can be stuffed ALMOST every time by a jab/grab/fast tilt.

This is where pivot grab and up B oos come into play. If your opponent is punishing your rolls then start mixing them up with both of these offensive options. Pivot grab can catch both dash attack and grab. The armor on up B is often times fast enough to blow through your opponents attack if they choose to continue offensive pressure after the initial attack on DK's shield. These options are very risky though. He can be grabbed out of up B before the hitbox is active and if you shield it it's very punishable. Pivot grab is also punishable on whiff and you may not even have enough room to do it if you're by the ledge.

If the opponent crosses DK's shield it really comes down to mixups and reading your opponent. If you're bad at these two things then you will likely have very hard time in this situation

 

[L9999]

Interestingly, one thing ZeRo pointed out about Diddy for putting him at 7th is because he's a low-risk, low-reward character. I think it was @falln who said everyone favours different things on their tier list (I think he singled out disjoints), and ZeRo seems to value high-reward characters, even if those characters have a higher risk to them.

ZeRo doesn't want to admit that Diddy's Fair walls out everyone that needs to approach (or not), Down Tilt is unpunishable, and banana restricts everything you want to do.

People really exaggerate how bad the Meta Knight vs Rosalina match up is. This is not surprising since both characters are obscure and people rarely know what they are talking about for either. That being said, it is doable for Rosalina.

There are definitiely criticisms I have to both players here, more so to Abadango, but you can see the general idea on how this match up should be played.
Luma is a very powerful tool against Meta Knight and if the Rosalina is careful then Meta Knight will not kill Luma whenever he pleases.

You need to know the percents you can die at, and you need to play at the ledge at those percents. You need to offensively pressure when you have Luma, and play reserved without giving up much stage control when Luma is gone.

Anyway. With Meta Knight being a possible -1 I can definitely see Zero's view for her placement.

You shot yourself in the foot here. It's Abadango's MK. Not really a fleshed out pocket. FeelMeUp mentioned S2H vs Dabuz for a reason. Who is the top player there? Obviously Dabuz. But the MU is so bad a non-top player MK main can beat a top Rosa. Scrap that, ANTi's pocket MK beat Dabuz. Even in Abadango's predictable antics, he still killed Luma like no one's business. There is no way around it, when you put those 2 in a match, and the MK is not playing linearly and predictable, the most likely result is MK winning.

 

[Yoshister]

ZeRo's tier list summary (not only this one, all of them so far):
-I lost recently to this character, so he must be way better than people think. Examples: Lucario, Palutena, Rosalina
-I main this character(s), so they can't be in the top 5. Example: Diddy and Cloud now, Sheik when she was nerfed (remember how he said she wasn't good anymore to justify his drop, but now that he doesn't use her anymore she is #4)
-Random character way higher than it should be because """potential"""

Well, Cloud isn't top 5.

But yeah, ZeRo tends to overrate characters if he gets beaten by o

I'm surprised nobody's weirded out by Marth and Lucina sharing places.
Or being in top tier at all.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Anyone remember when I said I'd do a big post regarding Lucina once? I'm working on it.

I look forward to reading this.

IMO, there are at least a handful of MUs where Lucina's consistency would be marginally more beneficial than Marth's tippers. Generally speaking, the tippers mean that Marth will always be slightly better, but I reckon Lucina has enough of an edge to not be completely irrelevant (which is also why I think combining Marth and Lucina in the same position makes decent sense)

On the topic of Rosalina, it's not like MK is her only problematic MU - there are quite a few (often sword) characters that give her a hard time. And it's worth noting that her even matchups are far more likely than most characters to be of the 'wreck or get wrecked' camp. How many MUs do the likes of Diddy Kong and Sheik have where they constantly have to fear 'getting wrecked' the way that Rosalina does?

Granted, she probably has more 7-3s in her favour than almost anyone else, but I stand by what I said before - while she'll always be a powerful fighter, eventually her tougher MUs will push her out of top 5.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Diddy has a lot of MUs where it feels like he really can't play the game at all.
Tink is a notable one that tends to go under the radar.
MM, Luigi, Olimar, Rosa, etc.
Sheik only really gets that feeling when the player refuses to do any certain thing.
"I lose badly to Ryu players because I tried to fight him up close even though his combos and single hits do 3x my damage"
"I lose badly to Rosas because my fair spacing wasn't perfect and I got jabbed/usmashed on reaction"
"I lose to Mario because I refuse to camp and stop jumping in"
etc.
but none are the level of MK Rosa.
I still solidly believe that it is an 8:2 matchup and no one can convince me otherwise. That level of helplessness reminds me a lot of the lopsided MUs in other games, like top level Melee Fox ICs or Brawl DK D3, but probably not as bad as the latter....

 

[Ulevo]

You shot yourself in the foot here. It's Abadango's MK. Not really a fleshed out pocket. FeelMeUp mentioned S2H vs Dabuz for a reason. Who is the top player there? Obviously Dabuz. But the MU is so bad a non-top player MK main can beat a top Rosa. Scrap that, ANTi's pocket MK beat Dabuz. Even in Abadango's predictable antics, he still killed Luma like no one's business. There is no way around it, when you put those 2 in a match, and the MK is not playing linearly and predictable, the most likely result is MK winning.

Please.

I have criticisms for Abadango's play, especially since when he mained the character he never brought out the characters proper potential. But that does not mean he is not a top player capable of performing well in the match up, or seeing success with the match up. On that same token, Dabuz is not infallible. There are plenty of things he does incorrectly versus Meta Knight that he shouldn't be doing. My video example was not meant to say "Ah-ha! Here's proof!" but to give you but one example of how the match up does not have to be as heavily one sided. You need to take multiple data points to see proper trends. My argument is not that Meta Knight loses, or that the match up is even, but people seem to believe the match up is free and this is really a mistake.

 

[Rizen]

Please.

I have criticisms for Abadango's play, especially since when he mained the character he never brought out the characters proper potential. But that does not mean he is not a top player capable of performing well in the match up, or seeing success with the match up. On that same token, Dabuz is not infallible. There are plenty of things he does incorrectly versus Meta Knight that he shouldn't be doing. My video example was not meant to say "Ah-ha! Here's proof!" but to give you but one example of how the match up does not have to be as heavily one sided. You need to take multiple data points to see proper trends. My argument is not that Meta Knight loses, or that the match up is even, but people seem to believe the match up is free and this is really a mistake.

After watching the first 20 minutes of this it looks like Aba's MK was seriously outplayed by the Rosa. :/
Edit, finished watching. It looks like Rosa has to be significantly better at this MU to win. Aba was outplayed 90% of the time but almost won due to MK's fantastic conversion to Uair ladder kills.

 

[DanGR]

I agree that it's not a free matchup, but it's not exactly a slight advantage for Metaknight either. By virtue of Rosa winning neutral so hard, it can't be anywhere close to the level of difficulty of Brawl D3/DK. If you're the better player (using Rosa), you can feasibly just not ever lose neutral at low kill percents and play intelligently in your other disadvantaged states, and come out on top. Easier said than done.

As the Rosa player you can't afford to make any spacing mistakes, get hard read in neutral at all, or be having even a slight 'off' day with your reaction times or other human things. Any of those happening mean you die easily to simple punishes, and the matchup becomes a total mess. If you assume both players pass all of that, then it 'feels' like a 60:40 matchup, but the human element makes it a bit worse on average, practically speaking.

 

[Ulevo]

As the Rosa player you can't afford to make any spacing mistakes, get hard read in neutral at all, or be having even a slight 'off' day with your reaction times or other human things. Any of those happening mean you die easily to simple punishes, and the matchup becomes a total mess. If you assume both players pass all of that, then it 'feels' like a 60:40 matchup, but the human element makes it a bit worse on average, practically speaking.

This is not true. Unless Rosalina makes a very critical error she should not be dying below 80% rage excluded if you play your percent ranges correct. Meta Knight does not have death conversions at virtually any percent. This is simply ignorance to the character.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Salem was putting on a master class on Bayo play at Collision. He damn near invalidated Bayo's SDI problem by having basically 101 different mix-ups to counteract them. He used Witch Twist like it was going out of fashion, and even then he used it masterfully every time. He was Batman-prepared for everything, and that's why he ran train through losers and won.

Can I have a link to those matches?

 

[Pancracio17]

I mean, sure rosa doesnt die at 20 unless she gets read on. But she still doesnt have luma for most of the match, almost every mk attack sends luma flying at full health, and luma-less rosa is a bad character.

 

[Illuminose]

It's worth noting that both Dabuz and Kirihara think the matchup is a -1 for Rosa, despite Dabuz's generally conservative opinions wrt Rosa matchups. I think it's more like a 40:60, but not worse than that. Rosa is a lot better in neutral than MK. Playing non-linear/not predictably sounds cool in theory, but MK's neutral is linear and poor in general. Playing by the ledge at the death percents works and then you can just play the game. It's very easy to assert stage control with Luma, especially in ledge situations where MK is almost helpless, and then without Luma all you have to do is avoid his telegraphed options until he comes back. The opinion people have of the matchup mostly comes from Rosas who don't understand when they die and play scared of MK like he can death combo at any point. You're supposed to actively throw out hitboxes and apply pressure when you have Luma, aka playing the game. That's how you will win neutral and keep Luma. Rosas playing like MK is going to KO them automatically at any percent is the reason that people think the matchup is 7-3 or some bs like that.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I mean, sure rosa doesnt die at 20 unless she gets read on. But she still doesnt have luma for most of the match, almost every mk attack sends luma flying at full health, and luma-less rosa is a bad character.

This is not to say I particularly believe you about non-Luma Rosa being a bad character, but when your oh-so-very-bad character only has to wait 12 seconds to turn into a top tier, they're not a particularly bad character.

 

[Pancracio17]

This is not to say I particularly believe you about non-Luma Rosa being a bad character, but when your oh-so-very-bad character only has to wait 12 seconds to turn into a top tier, they're not a particularly bad character.

Yeah but she will probably be runnning away, to the ledge (assuming you banned duck hunt) most of the time, and at the ledge luma dies to everything. Once rosa loses luma she has to fight her way out of the ledge or else anyone can just throw and attack on her general direction and the counter refreshes. Fast characters like shiek, mk, cloud, are specially good at this. Luma just dies instantly of rosa is in disadvantage or just loses momentum
Side note, since luma takes around 2 secconds to dissapear rosa has 14-15 secconds of vulnerability.

 

[Ethan7]

https://smashboards.com/tiers/#4,15...,22,3,19,32.Bottom#15,33,57,18,34.1,1,1,1,1,1

ZeRo's complete tier list. Tell me if I accidentally put a character in the wrong position.

 

[Radical Larry]

https://smashboards.com/tiers/#4,15...,22,3,19,32.Bottom#15,33,57,18,34.1,1,1,1,1,1

ZeRo's complete tier list. Tell me if I accidentally put a character in the wrong position.

I'm curious as to why ZeRo thinks in a different way? What is in his mind when making a tier list? What does he have to back up his claims? These are questions I'd want answered. What's ZeRo's methodology on determining the characters placements and why does he do so?

Also, do my tier lists sound credible now that we have this? (This question's just a joke.)

 

[Ethan7]

I'm curious as to why ZeRo thinks in a different way? What is in his mind when making a tier list? What does he have to back up his claims? These are questions I'd want answered. What's ZeRo's methodology on determining the characters placements and why does he do so?

Also, do my tier lists sound credible now that we have this? (This question's just a joke.)

I feel like he could've have gave more explanation on a lot of chracters other than just what he thinks the character's match-ups are like. I think all he gave for Rosalina & Luma was just that she supposedly loses to very few characters in top tier.

Anyways, I remember reading some of your post before I got an account on this site. I think Link is probably underrated because his results are better than people are saying he is.

 

[Radical Larry]

I feel like he could've have gave more explanation on a lot of chracters other than just what he thinks the character's match-ups are like. I think all he gave for Rosalina & Luma was just that she supposedly loses to very few characters in top tier.

Anyways, I remember reading some of your post before I got an account on this site. I think Link is probably underrated because his results are better than people are saying he is.

I would actually LOVE more explanations myself from ZeRo, maybe it'll give us insight on why he considers Ryu number 3. Or Falco above Link.

And Link's definitely underrated. While I claimed before he'd be an upper middle tier, he's not going to immediately be one. I'd say gradually as it progresses, Link may see more spotlight later on and manage to actually climb. He'll slowly but steadily climb it, it's just a matter of time and effort.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I've been wondering for a while now, why is Link so low on all the tier lists? His results are strong and consistent. They do not support his "bad mobility, bad frame data, bad character" theory in any way.

 

[Rizen]

I've been wondering for a while now, why is Link so low on all the tier lists? His results are strong and consistent. They do not support his "bad mobility, bad frame data, bad character" theory in any way.

That's a question for who made each tier list. Link had the most discrepancy of any character iirc.

The characters Link consistently places above are mostly below him on the current br tier list:
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/
http://i.imgur.com/pqM7m4N.jpg
Personally I'd move him just below Little Mac and have that 'F' tier be "Lower middle tier" like someone suggested (sorry forgot who).
"Bad mobility, bad frame data, bad character" is kind of an excuse to not examine Link's game plan. He has good reach, low landing lag, high damage for shield stun, Zair, stage control bombs and less-so boomerang and general frame trapping/combo projectiles to help make up for his frame data and mobility. Link can land fairly well in most MUs because bombs and his Fast Fall+low landing lag. He has a lot of weight and power for the long hauls.
The downsides are he doesn't have any combo breakers once he is in a combo, faster characters inside his disjointed sword safety, zone force Link to constantly be adjusting his spacing, often retreating as he fights, he loses to top tiers and doesn't have any "win buttons". He's also very hard to play well due to multitasking projectiles and his passive aggressive fighting style.

Link doesn't get destroyed but he isn't a great counter pick either. IMO his results reflect his theory and placement fairly well.

 

[Radical Larry]

That's a question for who made each tier list. Link had the most discrepancy of any character iirc.

The characters Link consistently places above are mostly below him on the current br tier list:
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/
http://i.imgur.com/pqM7m4N.jpg
Personally I'd move him just below Little Mac and have that 'F' tier be "Lower middle tier" like someone suggested (sorry forgot who).
"Bad mobility, bad frame data, bad character" is kind of an excuse to not examine Link's game plan. He has good reach, low landing lag, high damage for shield stun, Zair, stage control bombs and less-so boomerang and general frame trapping/combo projectiles to help make up for his frame data and mobility. Link can land fairly well in most MUs because bombs and his Fast Fall+low landing lag. He has a lot of weight and power for the long hauls.
The downsides are he doesn't have any combo breakers once he is in a combo, faster characters inside his disjointed sword safety, zone force Link to constantly be adjusting his spacing, often retreating as he fights, he loses to top tiers and doesn't have any "win buttons". He's also very hard to play well due to multitasking projectiles and his passive aggressive fighting style.

Link doesn't get destroyed but he isn't a great counter pick either. IMO his results reflect his theory and placement fairly well.

Wait, if you go by his results, wouldn't that mean Link would actually be right above Ike? The two are relatively close in top 16 weighted and unweighted, but Link heavily trumps Ike in top 8 weighted and unweighted, so wouldn't that actually put him all the way above Ike if his results reflect placement? Mind explaining more into that?

 

[ARGHETH]

Wait, if you go by his results, wouldn't that mean Link would actually be right above Ike? The two are relatively close in top 16 weighted and unweighted, but Link heavily trumps Ike in top 8 weighted and unweighted, so wouldn't that actually put him all the way above Ike if his results reflect placement? Mind explaining more into that?

Going by top 8 weighted, Ike is below everyone but Jigglypuff, Samus, G&W, Zelda, Falco, and Ganondorf. Top 16 weighted, he's bottom 20.
So while you're technically right, it doesn't really mean anything because Ike doesn't have many results lately in general.

 

[Rizen]

^That says more about Ike than Link, although it is interesting that Link's top 8 placements are better than his top 16. Das Koopa do your top 16 placements include the top 8 placements? If so top 16 would be closer than top 8 to accurate. Top 8 often is from the same 1 or 2 people (T for example). Like I've said, results aren't absolute but consistent results should be heavily considered when theorizing.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Charizard keeps appearing as a secondary.

My predictions are coming true.

Charizard's future is a counterpick character.

 

[Yikarur]

but a Counterpick Character against .. what?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

but a Counterpick Character against .. what?

Mostly high tiers.

The only top tier he does well against is .

Maybe Sheik if I want to be crazy.

 

[Fenny]

Can I have a link to those matches?

https://www.youtube.com/user/CLASHTournaments/videos

All there.

He sent ZeRo into losers 3-2 before being sent into losers by Tweek in Winner's Semis, then he eliminated ZeRo and Nairo 3-2 and 3-0 respectively before beating Tweek 3-0 and 3-2 in GFs.

 

[Radical Larry]

^That says more about Ike than Link, although it is interesting that Link's top 8 placements are better than his top 16. Das Koopa do your top 16 placements include the top 8 placements? If so top 16 would be closer than top 8 to accurate. Top 8 often is from the same 1 or 2 people (T for example). Like I've said, results aren't absolute but consistent results should be heavily considered when theorizing.

I think that he does count it. It'd seem odd if he didn't, but if he didn't, then Link would be between Robin and Lucas, like, directly between. However, I think he's counting top 8 as a part of the top 16 weighted. And I agree that while results aren't the end-all-be-all, you just cannot ignore consistency, no one can, not even the BR. Maybe around the time the next tier list, results will be indefinitely considered.

Going by top 8 weighted, Ike is below everyone but Jigglypuff, Samus, G&W, Zelda, Falco, and Ganondorf. Top 16 weighted, he's bottom 20.
So while you're technically right, it doesn't really mean anything because Ike doesn't have many results lately in general.

Why do you think this may be?

 

[san.]

Good Ike players: Inactive, performing well at ~70 man tournaments (https://smash.gg/tournament/invasion-7/brackets/14431/52087/171328 and http://rochesterfgc.challonge.com/Sio17s4singles for example), only go to category 2+ tournaments and get 9th/13th/17th. Pretty simple, didn't see much of him the last few months in general. I know Waldo has fund issues and I've been too busy to travel 6+ hours to go to any decent sized tournament outside of Shine.

 

[TriTails]

I've been wondering for a while now, why is Link so low on all the tier lists? His results are strong and consistent. They do not support his "bad mobility, bad frame data, bad character" theory in any way.

Bad frame data is something I've always wondered about Link. Sure, he has frame 7 jab, not much GTFO option, yadda yadda yadda... But do you know frame data is more than just attack speed?

For reference, Link's U-tilt is 1 frame faster than Mario's U-smash, but apparently it has roughly similiar KB to Mario's U-smash at 100% rage, 100% Mario. It also has far superior KBG, and Link is more likely to thrive off rage due to better survivability. Not to mention it has meatier and farther hitbox from Link while having less FAF and ending lag.

Link's F-tilt is frame 15, okay. But move is disgusting AF on the ledge. Simply spamming F-tilt near the ledge provides you a situation where the opponent has to respect the move hard. Its range means most ledge attacks won't reach you. Low FAF and ending lag overall mean you're getting a 13%, meaty killing hitbox out with like, half a second interval. Its power means that get hit at 100%... yeah. It also hits below the ledge. Yay I guess?

U-air is frame 11, but it screws airdodges to hell and back. D-air at the ledge nets you a free 15% and with its long lasting hitbox most non-teleport recoveries can Up-B and pray as they inevitably get hit by a move with almost one second of hitbox. You can also say the same thing with F-air since it's double hit, and it kills btw. Look out for that D-tilt lmao.

Also D-smash is bonkers. Frame 9 and it either semi-spikes or kills. It deals 14/16/17% too. Can be used out of jab for lulz because what the heck they can do aside from jumping away?

Link's attack speed is quite bad, but his range is respectable at worst. Some things he throws out sometimes are BS due to hitbox duration and/or killing power. He is also good at forcing approaches with his projectiles too. Obviously no one in their sane mind would give this man a good mobility or attack speed. If he isn't winning in agility and swiftness, he's winning in range and hitboxes. If we were to take into account his forever lasting hitboxes, his attacks suddenly become quite decent in rankings.

Tbh when people complain about Mario's U-smash, I wonder when are they going to complain about Link's tilts because they are clearly even more stupid than what Mario's U-smash can ever be.

 

[NegaNixx]

Mario's Up-Smash is good because he can also grab to 50/50 it. Link doesn't have that luxury as freely.

Frame data is nice, but moves in vacuums aren't reflective of the character's aptitude. Gotta look at how the whole kit flows together to augment these moves. The main problem I find with lower tiered characters is that they don't have a move to be the glue to bring all the good moves together in their Moveset.

The top tier's have these moves. Sheik's N-Air is an example.

 

[Ghostbone]

For reference, Link's U-tilt is 1 frame faster than Mario's U-smash, but apparently it has roughly similiar KB to Mario's U-smash at 100% rage, 100% Mario. It also has far superior KBG, and Link is more likely to thrive off rage due to better survivability. Not to mention it has meatier and farther hitbox from Link while having less FAF and ending lag.

You can't compare tilts to up-smashes, you can't immediately u-tilt OoS, you can't u-tilt out of a dash (in either direction), you can't charge a u-tilt to get the exact timing on ledge getups, spot-dodges, rolls, etc.

Not to mention Mario's u-smash does way more damage so it's actually just a far stronger kill option.

 

[Nobie]

Re: ZeRO's tier list, and the logic behind some placements.

I think it might be useful to think of things from ZeRO's perspective as a top player, and how he views the game as wel as his own character.

In the video, he talks about how he plays a very neutral-focused Diddy Kong, using his powerful poking tools. Damage comes in small increments but is also guaranteed, a quality that goes along well with how ZeRo wants to play. In other words, ZeRo is a very safe player who always tries to make sure the odds are in his favor.

Now think about what a player like this, who always has a very realistic chance of winning a tournament, has to consider when looking at a bracket. Let's say he has to play ten matches to get to first. Let's say his entire path is 10 Sheiks. Sheik is one of the best characters in the game, and very versatile, but Sheik has no real volatility as a character. She'll wear you down with strong neutral and high-damage combos. Everything she does is, in a sense, predictable and can be accounted for, even if her tools are among the best in the game.

Now imagine that the road to #1 is actually 10 Lucario in a row. Lucario is definitely a worse character than Sheik, but all of a sudden rage + Aura makes the entire path to victory a lot murkier. Any one of those Lucarios can just jank you into a losing spot, and you have to be mentally prepared to deal with that.

If you look at many of the characters ZeRo considers underrated, they have a volatility/comeback factor, even if they're still placed in Low to Bottom tier such as Ganondorf. The ability for someone like Mewtwo or Ryu to just turn the match around in an instant runs almost counter to what ZeRo as a player is all about, whereas another player might look at Diddy's stability and go, "this is what a true top tier looks like."

 

[EternalFlare]

Re: ZeRO's tier list, and the logic behind some placements.

I think it might be useful to think of things from ZeRO's perspective as a top player, and how he views the game as wel as his own character.

In the video, he talks about how he plays a very neutral-focused Diddy Kong, using his powerful poking tools. Damage comes in small increments but is also guaranteed, a quality that goes along well with how ZeRo wants to play. In other words, ZeRo is a very safe player who always tries to make sure the odds are in his favor.

Now think about what a player like this, who always has a very realistic chance of winning a tournament, has to consider when looking at a bracket. Let's say he has to play ten matches to get to first. Let's say his entire path is 10 Sheiks. Sheik is one of the best characters in the game, and very versatile, but Sheik has no real volatility as a character. She'll wear you down with strong neutral and high-damage combos. Everything she does is, in a sense, predictable and can be accounted for, even if her tools are among the best in the game.

Now imagine that the road to #1 is actually 10 Lucario in a row. Lucario is definitely a worse character than Sheik, but all of a sudden rage + Aura makes the entire path to victory a lot murkier. Any one of those Lucarios can just jank you into a losing spot, and you have to be mentally prepared to deal with that.

If you look at many of the characters ZeRo considers underrated, they have a volatility/comeback factor, even if they're still placed in Low to Bottom tier such as Ganondorf. The ability for someone like Mewtwo or Ryu to just turn the match around in an instant runs almost counter to what ZeRo as a player is all about, whereas another player might look at Diddy's stability and go, "this is what a true top tier looks like."

First of all as I mentioned earlier, Diddy has a lot more going for him than just neutral play, Zero is just trying to downplay how good the character is. His damage output/conversions are definitely well above average even if they aren't the best in the game. He has some of the most reliable kill confirms in the game. Also Diddy has easily some of the best landing options.

Anyway according to Zero his tier list is based off matchups, not how badly a character could possibly cheese you. So that's hardly an excuse for the more questionable placements on his list. And if he valued potential cheesy kills/volatility so highly, ZSS should be a lot higher on his list (rage ceiling death combos anyone?) and yet she's ranked very low on his list compared to most players.

Zero's actual thought process when making tier lists was summed up nicely in this post:

ZeRo's tier list summary (not only this one, all of them so far):
-I lost recently to this character, so he must be way better than people think. Examples: Lucario, Palutena, Rosalina
-I main this character(s), so they can't be in the top 5. Example: Diddy and Cloud now, Sheik when she was nerfed (remember how he said she wasn't good anymore to justify his drop, but now that he doesn't use her anymore she is #4)
-Random character way higher than it should be because """potential"""

I mean, he is a monster playing this game, and he has a lot of insight some of us can only wish to have, but I think that even if this is his personal tier list, he shouldn't avoid raw data like the Rosalina vs Meta Knight or Diddy's overall usage and placements in tournaments.

He complained a lot about the new 4br tier list, but I think it is way more spot-on than ZeRo's list. Besides, some of the reasons he didn't like the official list was Little Mac being low tier (it is on his Twitter), when he himself put him in low tier.

 

[Das Koopa]

^That says more about Ike than Link, although it is interesting that Link's top 8 placements are better than his top 16. Das Koopa do your top 16 placements include the top 8 placements? If so top 16 would be closer than top 8 to accurate. Top 8 often is from the same 1 or 2 people (T for example). Like I've said, results aren't absolute but consistent results should be heavily considered when theorizing.

yes, Top 16 includes the top 8s

 

[Nobie]

First of all as I mentioned earlier, Diddy has a lot more going for him than just neutral play, Zero is just trying to downplay how good the character is. His damage output/conversions are definitely well above average even if they aren't the best in the game. He has some of the most reliable kill confirms in the game. Also Diddy has easily some of the best landing options.

Anyway according to Zero his tier list is based off matchups, not how badly a character could possibly cheese you. So that's hardly an excuse for the more questionable placements on his list. And if he valued potential cheesy kills/volatility so highly, ZSS should be a lot higher on his list (rage ceiling death combos anyone?) and yet she's ranked very low on his list compared to most players.

Zero's actual thought process when making tier lists was summed up nicely in this post:

I don't think that's exactly fair to ZeRo, though I don't quite agree with his tier list either.

What gave me insight into how ZeRo thinks is actually the recent interview he did with EE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnYtjXJh_lc

In it, he talks about why he doesn't use Sheik anymore, despite thinking that Sheik is a better character than Diddy Kong. It's not because Sheik can't kill anymore, because he lists all of Sheik's various kill setups, but rather because Sheik's evolving into a more follow-up oriented character, especially like what Void does.

The other deal breaker for ZeRo is the nerf on Sheik's fair range. He states that this is huge to him because he likes being able to perfectly space opponents out and not even give them a chance to really retaliate or do samage. The problem with the fair nerf is that Sheik now trades against more attacks even when spaced optimally, so Sheik ends up taking damage throughout the set in a way that she wouldn't have.

Now what other character has a crazy aerial that can stuff any and all approaches and challenges?

Hmm...

When you think about it from that perspective, that what he values is like an iron, impenetrable neutral where damage is avoided as much as humanly possible, I think it even makes sense why he would put Rosalina on top. While I don't think she's #1, just the fact that Rosalina has such a tough walling style means that she probably appeals to ZeRo's senses, even if her actual play style doesn't suit him.