Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Gamegenie222]

Having a Charizard in this state that's honestly as good if not better than Sharpy tends to influence.

Latest example, Chuck Nasty just beat MJG 3-1 in Kansas tonight. First game was a two stock that took less than a minute.

Speaking of which your boy beat him again in grands at the Sweet Spot 2 so yeah Charizard doing some work.

 

[my_T]

what are you talking about free? DK bair is disgusting and an amazing oos option

Bair comes out frame 7, for an oos option that is slow and unreliable in most situations. Anything slower than frame 6 usually doesn't make for a reliable oos option and frame 6 is barely cutting it.

You can look at the sets between Salem and DKwill from Collision to see how bad it is. It really shows against characters that are really safe like fox, ZSS, mario, sheik, pika, etc.

 

[T4ylor]

Salem's , man. Taking out Zero (twice), Nairo, and Tweek to win Collision. His combo and punish game were nuts.

 

[Das Koopa]

What about San Japan (121 entrants) that's continuing tomorrow in San Antonio?

Is there a bracket link?

 

[Djent]

Salem is currently dropping anti-SDI knowledge in his interview.

 

[Illusion.]

Is there a bracket link?

There's only a top 16 Challonge bracket that was just made because from what my friends at the event told me, there's no Internet so they did pool brackets offline. The Challonge is possible because of someone volunteering to create a hotspot.

http://challonge.com/sj9singles

 

[EternalFlare]

Bair comes out frame 7, for an oos option that is slow and unreliable in most situations. Anything slower than frame 6 usually doesn't make for a reliable oos option and frame 6 is barely cutting it.

You can look at the sets between Salem and DKwill from Collision to see how bad it is. It really shows against characters that are really safe like fox, ZSS, mario, sheik, pika, etc.

OOS Bair would be even slower than frame 7 as a character would have to go through all the jump squat frames first. Making it take 13 frames. It can punish really laggy things but anything with a small window will be fine against it. And up B that comes out frame 6 and covers all around Bowser is definitely a superior OOS option in most high level situations.

 

[sedrf]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/5127qd/congratulations_to_the_winner_of_smash_4_singles/

here's the top 16 of collision 14

 

[EternalFlare]

Salem's , man. Taking out Zero (twice), Nairo, and Tweek to win Collision. His combo and punish game were nuts.

Can people stop insisting Diddy is terrible for Bayo now? I've heard this claim a lot with zero evidence to back it up. It's worth noting that at CEO, Nietono who's considered top 3-4 with Diddy also lost to Saj's bayo.

All these sets were BO5 too. If the best Diddys are repeatedly losing to Bayo, the matchup can't be that awful.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Remember when all those nerfs totally killed Bayonetta, how it was totally too soon and they ****ed it all up and now she was the worst character ever forever?

 

[IceAnt573]

Glad to see the same Lucina that took 25th at Shine (Kogarasuma) took 13th here too. Same placing as Mr. E.

 

[EternalFlare]

This is late but nobody has posted Results for TSC

TSC 4 84 entrants (Category 1)

1. Esu
2. Some
3. Abadango
4. Umeki
5. No
5. Raito
7. Takaru
7. Kamemushi
9. Toriumi Yuko
9. Kakera
9. Maguro
9. Haru3
13. Omunaoto
13. Suru
13. Kare~
13. China

Are the videos of this tournament up? Anyone know where I can find them or where they will eventually be uploaded?

 

[FamilyTeam]

Glad to see the same Lucina that took 25th at Shine (Kogarasuma) took 13th here too. Same placing as Mr. E.

Kogarasuma is a really nice guy. I've been talking to him here and there.
He is a very good Lucina, too. Pretty inspirational stuff. I hope this means we can see more of her.

 

[Aaron1997]

Collision 14 Results 147 entrants (Category 2)


1. Salem
2. Tweek
3. Nairo
4. ZeRo
5. Camalange
5. DKwill
7. Sinji
7. James
9. 6WX
9. Dungan
9. ADHD
9. Blue
13. Kogarasuma
13. John Numbers
13. Ling Ling
13. Mr.E

 

[PJB]

What channel was collision streamed on? Gotta see those vods

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Collision 14 Results 147 entrants (Category 2)


1. Salem
2. Tweek
3. Nairo
4. ZeRo
5. Camalange
5. DKwill
7. Sinji
7. James
9. 6WX
9. Dungan
9. ADHD
9. Blue
13. Kogarasuma
13. John Numbers
13. Ling Ling
13. Mr.E

ADHD? Now there's a name I haven't seen in a while. I thought he didn't play Diddy in Smash 4 though, something about his play style not suiting him?

 

[Gamegenie222]

What channel was collision streamed on? Gotta see those vods

ClashTournaments twitch channel.

 

[L9999]

Collision 14 Results 147 entrants (Category 2)


1. Salem
2. Tweek
3. Nairo
4. ZeRo
5. Camalange
5. DKwill
7. Sinji
7. James
9. 6WX
9. Dungan
9. ADHD
9. Blue
13. Kogarasuma
13. John Numbers
13. Ling Ling
13. Mr.E

Pretty interesting top 16. The most notable sights are solo Lucina and Pac-Man. Also, has anyone noticed that obscure/unknown Sanic players are getting top 8/16 lately at stacked stuff? And that top 16 is getting flooded with Sanic in general?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

There's also a Charizard, and WFT in there, not solo but still there nonetheless

Sonic is getting top 16 a lot yeah, probably because those big 2 events he won recently

 

[Celes_]

Can people stop insisting Diddy is terrible for Bayo now? I've heard this claim a lot with zero evidence to back it up. It's worth noting that at CEO, Nietono who's considered top 3-4 with Diddy also lost to Saj's bayo.

All these sets were BO5 too. If the best Diddys are repeatedly losing to Bayo, the matchup can't be that awful.

As a Bayonetta player myself I can safely say that Diddy is definitely her worst matchup (40:60 imo). Salem seems to be really good at the matchup since he played patient and didn't overextend. He has good item play, which is likely due to his familiarity and usage of ZSS' armor pieces in Brawl, and he also uses banana against Diddy very well.

Nietono may have narrowly lost to Saj but he solidly beat ikep 3-0 in the qualifier for THB6. Pink Fresh also has a horrible record against Angel Cortes, and was knocked out of CEO by a Diddy player (Wormynugget). Plus Tyroy was never able to take a set off of Zinoto or JJRocket's Diddy Kongs with pre-patch Bayonetta.

There's a reason why K9, Tyrant, and Seagull Joe all counterpick her with Diddy Kong. He outranges and beats out her main neutral tools with pretty much just FAir, DTilt, and Monkey Flip, plus he ledge traps her well with banana at the ledge since all of her get up options from the ledge when she can't do a regular getup or an aerial / Witch Twist through the stage are very linear and unsafe. He has a good grab game for both racking up damage and taking stocks, a solid command grab as well, and has other safe and reliable kill options that she can't try to get out of with Witch Time or Bat Within. She also can't try to play lame against him and force him to approach recklessly with Bullet Climax since he's too short to get hit by it outside of pretty much point blank range, unless you're on Lylat.

There being a few instances of a player winning a bad matchup doesn't mean it's not a bad matchup. Atelier is known as a fairly good Rosalina player yet he lost 2-0 to Gackt who plays Ness. And Tyrant lost to falln at KTar Saga when he's a top 3 Meta Knight player. A matchup being unfavorable doesn't mean it's unwinnable.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

As a Bayonetta player myself I can safely say that Diddy is definitely her worst matchup (40:60 imo

I honestly thought Mewtwo was her worst MU and that was the main reason I picked him up at first, hes been working out fairly well for both her and Sheik so I thought nothing of it.
Oh well

 

[Aaron1997]

https://www.youtube.com/user/meshimaX/videos

@chaos11011

Vods for TSC 4 is being uploaded. These Include Abadango vs Kameme and Raito vs Kameme

 

[ぱみゅ]

I honestly thought Mewtwo was her worst MU and that was the main reason I picked him up at first, hes been working out fairly well for both her and Sheik so I thought nothing of it.
Oh well

Mewtwo is a fine matchup for her, he has very few answers to Witch Twist OOS (used properly, spamming it means eating a Shadow Ball or spaced Fair). At the same time, she can cover his landing options very well.
I'd say is even though, Mewtwo also is difficult to get a out of disadvantage against, his disjoints are annoying, and he kills pretty early.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Mewtwo is a fine matchup for her, he has very few answers to Witch Twist OOS (used properly, spamming it means eating a Shadow Ball or spaced Fair). At the same time, she can cover his landing options very well.
I'd say is even though, Mewtwo also is difficult to get a out of disadvantage against, his disjoints are annoying, and he kills pretty early.

Alright this probably isn't the right thread for it but I need to know if I'm playing the matchup correctly. I haven't really gotten a chance to play any good Bayonetta players post patch and just moved so I have no idea what kind of smash scene is here in Fort Collins

I try to play the neutral as long as possible and only really extend myself when I know its going to work (whiffed Bullet Climax or ABK is punished with Shadowball for example)

In the neutral I'm trying to space the Bayonetta player out with dtilt, fair, and bair while charging Shadowball whenever I get the chance. I'll go for followups on things that actually hit (my Mewtwo combos are a bit sketchy so its only little ~20 things) and try to keep the space that I took from them. If I have a considerable lead I'll play more aggro and once they hit ~90 I'll try and kill with Shadowball, downsmash, fair at the ledge, or nair > footstool > disable.

Any time they break past my wall I consider myself at a disadvantage and try to get distance in any way possible. If there are platforms its usually with ledge canceled teleports and airdodges. If I have to I'll try and create a 50/50 by going about halfway under the stage and b reversing my confusion to get back to the same side or just do a regular confusion and get to the other side. Bayonetta doesn't have the raw mobility to cover both options at the same time like some other top tiers. If it succeeds then I successfully reset the neutral and if it doesn't then I'm stuck in an awkward position with meh ledge options against a character that is pretty damn good at limiting ledge options in general (unless I have a fully charged Shadowball on deck).

Am I doing this right????

 

[NairWizard]

I still honestly believe that Bayonetta is the best character in the game.

Waiting for more results to come in for Bayo to proclaim it loudly, but Salem's performance was a nice shot in that direction.

The meme of "Bayonetta is bad in neutral" needs to die. She's got great range and normals and Witch Time is a thing lol. Her advantage game is ridiculous. And her disadvantage is also top tier, including her recovery. She's not a perfect character, but I definitely think that she has more tools than pretty much any character except for Sheik, and I'd argue that Sheik is worse by virtue of having a slightly harder time killing.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Sheik has more kill setups than Bayo does. A lot more.
and many more opportunities to lead into those setups. The only things she doesn't have are a WT and really easy kills off the top.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

After Collision XIV we have to take Bayonetta into consideration for at least top 5, if not top 3. There's simply no way around it. Two different Bayonetta players have won two considerably stacked tournaments in the two strongest regions of the USA. With wins against Mr r, Marss, Tyrant, Tweek, Nairo and Zero she now has beaten top 3 players of several characters that are highly relevant to the metagame.

 

[Fenny]

Salem was putting on a master class on Bayo play at Collision. He damn near invalidated Bayo's SDI problem by having basically 101 different mix-ups to counteract them. He used Witch Twist like it was going out of fashion, and even then he used it masterfully every time. He was Batman-prepared for everything, and that's why he ran train through losers and won.

 

[Frihetsanka]

After Collision XIV we have to take Bayonetta into consideration for at least top 5, if not top 3. There's simply no way around it. Two different Bayonetta players have won two considerably stacked tournaments in the two strongest regions of the USA. With wins against Mr r, Marss, Tyrant, Tweek, Nairo and Zero she now has beaten top 3 players of several characters that are highly relevant to the metagame.

Cloud was 1 game away from taking it all, though. There are so many good characters in top tier. Diddy Kong, Sheik, Cloud, Sonic, Mario, Rosalina & Luma, Fox, Zero Suit Samus, Mewtwo... People seem quick to jump on "x character did really well recently, must be top 5". And yes, different people have argued that every character that I just mentioned is top 5 (plus Ryu, although few people seem to consider him top 5 these days). At this point in time, I think there are other characters that has done more to deserve top 5, and with better MU charts to boot. She's almost certainly top 10 though, maybe top 7, but I don't think she's top 5 right now. I could be wrong though.

 

[Tizio Random]

She still has incredibly good tools, it's not like she can't kill anymore, guys. I also think that Bayonetta mains didn't even explore too much of her neutral, considering how good her ceiling combos overshadowed everything else

I firmly believe that in two/three months we will look back at 1.1.4/1.1.5 Bayonetta and laugh about all these whinings and how we thought Bayonetta was "fine" as it is. Looking back and seeing people defending pre-patch Diddy and Sheik looks so silly. The same will happen with Bayonetta. And I know what you're thinking: no, Bayonetta wasn't as problematic as these two characters.

Not to brag, but the day Bayonetta was nerfed while almost everyone was screaming she was dead, I predicted that people would explore her neutral game and other busted option (basically no one abused Witch Time before the nerfs) that no one even considered because "b-but mah zero to death!"
The nerfs were warranted and in no way "overkill". A pre-patch Bayonetta with the current knowledge of the character would be scary af.

 

[NotLiquid]

Sonic sees an uptick in results as of late while Bayonetta decisively lays the smackdown on some of this game's best and most meta defining players.

Sega holding that W.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Sonic is super good and should be considered top 5 imo. His MU chart is really good, his neutral is amazing, and he does have quite a bit of results. His top level results are a bit lacking, however, although perhaps that will change over time? KEN winning Umebura is pretty big, with players like Dabuz, Nairo, Kamemushi, Abadango, Taiheita, Mr. R, Nietono, Ranai, and Komorikiri attending. Sonic getting 4th and 7th at Shine is noteworthy too, and 1st in Sumabato 12.

 

[soniczx123]

his neutral is amazing,

Punish game*

 

[Yikarur]

Bayonetta is so scary. And I don't have any Bayonetta arround to practice

 

[Nobie]

Shout outs to Sinji for tearing his way through Loser's bracket before getting taken out by ZeRo. One thing I noticed compared to Abadango's out of practice Pac-Man is how much more reliably Sinji landed his Bell into Smash Attack setups. One of the curses of Pac-Man (and a lot of similar zoner-type characters) is that they require a lot of maintenance to keep them anywhere close to strong.

Salem's Witch Time usage is so interesting compared to other Bayonettas. Some players, like I think Pink Fresh for example, keep Witch Time in reserve, and won't even use it for entire games to save it as a surprise for just the right moment. Salem throws it out for a variety of reasons and doesn't even mind wearing down the effectiveness of it through overuse because he'd rather use it to get small gains, or to prevent approaches. It's really cool.

Also, I have a question: if there was a character who you were told would be literally unbeatable if used to absolute perfection, but that the effort required to achieve this level was 10x harder than Melee Fox and utterly unforgiving (even one technical error could cost you a stock), would you want to use such a character?

It's just something I've been thinking about in terms of what people want out of their chosen characters, and the degree to which effort should equal reward. Right now there's talk about Ryu not even being top tier, and that as a result the amount of skill required to use him doesn't match what you can get out of him. But I also wonder if that's something people actually want to a degree: a character who requires much more work but doesn't necessarily earn him a top spot.

 

[Luco]

I know a few people who would be saying "Told you so" if they had accounts here (or otherwise just haven't gotten around to doing it yet).

Bayo's still *really* strong, not sure if she deserves a rise, keep in mind a few years back ZSS winning the largest tournament in Brawl history at the time took her up a single spot: The entire point of 'top' tier is to show that realistically any one of those 11 characters could be winning tournaments. We know of a few common threats, but it's not unrealistic to have Bayo outside of your top 3 whilst also holding these recent tournament victories in light.

That said, Bayo's actual gameplan now that it's been figured out is probably just as scary tbh, if not scarier, than what we knew of her pre-patch. Now you not only run the risk of dying at 20%, you'll actually find it 3x harder to land a successful hit in against this character because her end-lag is unreal (If Shaya had gotten here before me you might be hearing "HAVE YOU SEEN THAT UAIR THAT ENDS FRAME (30? Sub that?)" ) on every relevant move. Every hit (still) confirms into a lot of damage or death still and her hitboxes are (still) obnoxious (if you're one of the 5 or so characters in this game who can actually trade / spike her during up-B, don't worry, she'll get all of her recovery moves back because this is a balanced game)!

So I suppose the question you're asking yourself is: Who is scarier than this character? Who is more viable when played optimally? What weaknesses does she have that are relevant in our metagame?

And no I don't have an answer for that yet. But judging by Mr. R's twitter feed, maybe we'll have some pretty notable indicators soon enough. Enjoy the wait~


Alsoooo, while I'm here, last part of ZeRo's tier list is out:

 

[Piipp]

Bair comes out frame 7, for an oos option that is slow and unreliable in most situations. Anything slower than frame 6 usually doesn't make for a reliable oos option and frame 6 is barely cutting it.

You can look at the sets between Salem and DKwill from Collision to see how bad it is. It really shows against characters that are really safe like fox, ZSS, mario, sheik, pika, etc.

Yes but that's fast for a super heavy. The only heavy I feel that has a better OoS option than that is Bowser and his up B.

And how many characters have a move that strong and can do two of them in a short hop?

I'll wait.

 

[blackghost]

Salem's Witch Time usage is so interesting compared to other Bayonettas. Some players, like I think Pink Fresh for example, keep Witch Time in reserve, and won't even use it for entire games to save it as a surprise for just the right moment. Salem throws it out for a variety of reasons and doesn't even mind wearing down the effectiveness of it through overuse because he'd rather use it to get small gains, or to prevent approaches. It's really cool.

people act like using witch time for anything other than a kill is wrong. Use it for escape and to get in your opponents head as well. but what makes salem the best bayo is all his answers to sdi that what makes him beyond all the other players.
as for bayo top 3 or not? thats a long debate her results are improving and shes past zss in terms of recent results i think but its not like bayo stacking all the top 8 its still one bayo at coillusion compared t two sonics and three cloud.

 

[freeziebeatz]

I don't think it has been posted yet so here are the results of Avalon U-V

Avalon U-V (Netherlands) (101 Entrants) (Category 1)

1st - Mr. R
2nd - BYOC | S1
3rd - IxisNaugus
4th - iStudying
5th - DAT | Ho
5th - PikaForLife
7th - Patrino
7th - Tatuman
9th - Meru
9th - Joey
9th - C.R.Z.
9th - PsY
13th - ChrisR334
13th - Ivra
13th - Mank
13th - WRECK-IT-MUNDO

 

[Ghostbone]

Salem isn't the best bayo, people are freaking out after one tournament lmao.

but what makes salem the best bayo is all his answers to sdi that what makes him beyond all the other players.

I mean stuff like this is plainly false, salem's conversions are pretty lackluster in comparison to other bayo's, and he relies on combos that can be easily DI/SDI'd, and very rarely actually mixes up his combo game. His neutral is very good obviously, but a lot of the players were just falling into pre-patch bayo combos (Tweek being a notable example, SDIing IN to all of bayo's stuff, leading to him dying in situations he was at otherwise no risk) which meant salem didn't have to work very hard to get kills.