Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Pancracio17]

Lucinas moves chain extremely well and do a instead of a 50/50 between sourspot and tipper they do like 35/65 and iirc bair does like 20/80, so the damage is disproportionate. Id argue lucina has a much better time racking up damage even if in some and specific instances where marth supposedly gets an extra hit dont really happen, lucina most of the time gets just as many fairs and probably does more damage overall.

 

[Ninety]

Can anyone tell me what Marth's sourspot combos actually are, and them being used in a non-training mode context? I hear that a lot regarding Marth vs Lucina, but I don't think I've ever actually noticed them being put to use.

 

[wm1026]

Sideb is a huge gimmick you can beat procedurally. His short hopped aerials aren't very safe zoning or spacing tools. (Can just use ground movement to mix up your positioning or shield, and dash attack the inevitable whiff) He doesn't have good ways to pressure a shield (bad grab, commitments on all aerials, and short range on grounded pokes). He just doesn't have anything that works in neutral. When he does win neutral somehow, mechakoopa's versatility as a trapping tool in advantage keeps him going. And he's actually a monster in advantage, so he's got that going for him I guess.

Side B is gimmicky or at least hard to land, that is true. As far as spacing with aerials, I know fair has a good disjoint and stays out for awhile and bair has disjoint and shield push back I believe. Could be wrong but if I'm not mistaken then Koopalings tilts come really quickly and don't have much lag which could potentially stuff the run in grab. Then having mechakoopa out can make some unsafe options safe. Cannon ball is pretty useless but I think can be used in some mindgames. I believe it still has a hit box as I falls? Edge guarding? His grab is abismall but I know his throws give good damage and back throw can kill. (Something some characters above him don't have) Also I believe the spin out from side b is not being used enough. It has good priority and is good for offstage play. Koopalings up b recovery could be better but he has essentially three jumps to mix up with and challenge edge guarding with spin out as a mix up. His forward smash kills insanely early, doesn't have much lag, and is multi hit (focus attack). His down smash is slow but hits hard. He has footstool setups that lead into jab locks which can lead to stocks.

 

[Yikarur]

Raptor's MU chart.
I think it's a bit optimistic heh

 

[Bowserboy3]

Can anyone tell me what Marth's sourspot combos actually are, and them being used in a non-training mode context? I hear that a lot regarding Marth vs Lucina, but I don't think I've ever actually noticed them being put to use.

Just to list a few:

• Dtilt sour -> Grab/Fair/Dancing Blade works for far longer than Lucina's.
• Utilt sour confirms into itself for longer than Lucina's, as well as into an aerial longer.
  • Of note, sour Utilt (potentially x2) -> sour Bair -> Fair is a thing. Depending on percent, the sour Fair can lead into a double jump tipper Fair too. Of course, you can just finish with tipper Fair.
  • Again of note, back hit of sour Utilt -> Tipper Uair is a true combo that can KO on certain stages at around 80-95%-ish.
• Fair sour combos into itself if you manage to get the first Fair in the right place (usually at around 20%ish, rising in a full hop, 2nd one fast falling, repeat), and you can actually Fair chain opponents across the stage. When the opponent flies too far for another sour Fair to hit, you finish with a Tipper Fair. You can usually get around 4 Fairs in a chain here.
• Sour Uair sets up into aerials for longer too, which like the back hit of sour Utilt, this can KO from a tipper Uair.

---
I remembered there's more

• At around 35%-ish near the ledge, landing with sour Fair can combo into a foxtrot tipper Fsmash.
• At rolls length away near the ledge at around 40%, sour Dtilt can lead into stutter-step tipper Fsmash to KO.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Hes also got footstool combos off of sour hits that can end up dealing 50+

Low percent he has things like sour up tilt > footstool > db 1 momentum cancel > dair lock > sour up air > footstool > db 1 cancel > dair > sour up air > follow up for around ~70%

High percent he has things like tipper nair 1/sour up air > footstool > db 1 > dair > tipper up air/up smash which can kill ~80

 

[FullMoon]

- istudying traveled the USA for a bit during the summer. There were also more tournaments in Europe that satisifed Koopa's criteria to be considered. Istudy attended quite a bunch of them.
- Oisiitofu appeared. He competes in a very mid-tier heavy region where Sonic and Sheik are somewhat rare, especially on his level of play.
- The tournaments Oisiitofu attends are also consistently treated as Category 2 by Koopa which, as I've explained before, is generous and gives Greninja's results an additional boost.
- Some had 2 or 3 really good results, possibly at occasions where big hitters attended something in the states like CEO or EVO.
- Other people like Venia, Waveguider [?] or Illusion probably contributed a couple of points as well but I think most of Greninja's results come from istudying, Oisii and Some.

Greninja doing so well on the rankings isn't really that surprising if you think about it. The circumstances during the whole summer were just pretty much ideal for him - istudying having time and incentive to travel the states, Oisiitofu appearing in a region that's generally pretty mid-tier friendly and Some possibly gaining some sort of consistency ... all of that is pretty huge in the 15th-25th area. If something similar happened to, say, Villager ... or Pikachu ... or some other good but underplayed character we'd see something similar.

Also, I'm pretty sure Greninja won't be able to maintain these results. Now that istudying is back in Europe again he won't get to contribute as many points. The few tournaments that meet Koopa's criteria during the fall season will likely be ranked as Category 1 for the most part [the biggest upcoming tournament in Europe that I'm aware of will take place in the winter break] too. Some won't be able to benefit from Japan's general inconsistency forever [in his case it's mostly be a case of whether he can snatch some big-name wins. Abadango and Kamemushi, for instance, are not out of reach for him] so it'll be up to how well Oisiitofu does for the most part. So until winter at least, I would expect Greninja to somewhat fall off again.

Fair enough, although as Chainz mentioned Some has already managed to beat Abadango in bracket.

 

[Mr. Johan]

http://sourcegaming.info/2016/09/07/512/

"I’m not the creator of these games, so I’m not trying to say anything definitive. But if I had to make a statement about these sorts of games, it would be, “If someone’s using a tactic that’s giving you trouble, just adopt their tactic, and win.”"

"A competitor has the freedom to choose the same team composition as their opponent, and pull off the same combos, if they so choose. If you think overpowered moves, links, or combos are unfair, then you should just use those techniques and win. Your opponent is doing the same thing to you."

- Sakurai, literally saying Pick A Top Tier.

Certainly a far cry from when he said his goal was to give casuals and competitive players equal ground.

Guess that kills the idea of new patches unless dissent gets very loud.

 

[verbatim]

Old post but I think the replies missed the main point.

Just a question about the Koopalings. In just about every tier list I have seen they are in low tier. Which I'm not arguing against or anything, I am just asking why. What are their glaring weaknesses? Disjoint? Kill confirm? Slow? Just curious

They don't have a grab, and that is THE number one viability killer in Smash 4.

Of the characters in the game with comparably bad grabs (Villager, Pacman, Yoshi), they all have some of the best shield pressure in the game, and could each make an argument for having THE best shield pressure in the game if they had a normal grab. BJR actually does also have really good non-grab shield pressure options (dair --> dtilt), but having a bad grab is still a death keel, and these characters need their insane options to give them a chance to do anything. Generally speaking the other 3 also have significant x factors that BJR doesn't, which is why they generally appear above BJR in tier lists.

Villager and Pacman have the top two furthest reaching recoveries in the entire game, and Yoshi/Pacman have super armor on theirs, whereas some moves can actually knock BJR offstage after he uses his up b and not give him the ability to use it again.

Yoshi and Villager have jab --> imagination, compared to BJR's bottom 5 jab.

All three of them have top tier zoning and projectile or item games, compared to BJR's mechakoopa, which is unnecessarily hard to get in hand in the middle of a match and doesn't give as good of a reward as eggs/slingshots/fruits, which are all easier to use.

Yoshi and Villager always bounce around high and mid tier depending on who's making the list. Pacman's usually between mid and low, which I attribute to him having the worst grab in the game by a SIGNIFICANT margin, but he usually appears above BJR.

 

[Deleted member]

To get some discussion going, who do you guys think are character(s) who could rise up in the meta in the next few months and into next year?

I'll put my cents on a couple characters I think can:

Kogarasuma has already been getting great results no other Lucina main has seen as of far (25th at Shine, 13th at Collision tied with Mr. E). With most people having a turn in opinion and seeing her just as or relatively close to being viable as , I feel like she'll rise into the higher tiers where Marth currently is, especially if Kogarasuma continues to go to relatively stacked events so we'll have results to build off of to make a solid case for her viability.

For the record, I already believe he's better than Ness.

His current position on the 4BR list is definitely too low, even if the circumstances for why were already explained way back in the thread. Taiheita continues to perform exceptionally with him, as do Mekos, Kodystri and Hakii to a lesser extent.

He has good buttons in dtilt, PK Fire, zair and jab all coupled with a versatile grab game (a combo throw and three kill throws is nothing to sneeze at, even if a tether grab is more committal than a regular one.) His zoning, combo game and recovery are all quite solid. He has some suspect matchups against high tiers (), but he doesn't lose notably hard to any characters from what I am able to infer. Though @Luco can correct me if I'm just spewing misinformation.

In my opinion the character has a good amount of room to grow, if I'm honest he could make it in the mid 20s by the next list.

I already made a post here about my overall thoughts on Shulk in the current meta, so you can go read that if you wish. It's recommended.

For a very long time I used to be one of the biggest Roy naysayers, but I don't think he's anywhere near bottom 5 like many tend to view him (he's 6th worst on 4BR if Miis aren't counted). Likely he still won't rise above low tier, but if Sethlon travels more often or Ryo and Manny use Roy as a consistent counterpick/secondary he definitely could rise. Somewhere in the mid 40s, at least to me. Even with all his flaws, his advantage state and pressure game are super good.

 

[Ninety]

"Git gud" -- Sakurai

 

[Ethan7]

"Git gud" -- Sakurai

That's an interesting translation.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Raptor's MU chart.
I think it's a bit optimistic heh

Remind me to slap Carlos next time I see him.

Get this **** out of here.

Cloud MU spot on tho.

 

[NotLiquid]

I'm actually kind of curious where the Ness vs Lucas issue stands right now.

I feel like Ness has a much better neutral and lord knows this is a game that highly favors characters with good neutral (hence Diddy's dominance) and back then he seemed like a huge up-and-comer, but Lucas just reaps so many rewards. Doesn't feel like there's many reps left standing for the former while the latter has at least carved out a niche that is getting increasingly more impressive. I wonder if there's ever going to be a time where Lucas will have safely overtaken Ness.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

You obviously missed the part where I clearly said she has followups after jab too, that kill, jab > fair/nair/bair will kill only a little later than marth's Jab > Ftilt when it starts to true combo. Not to mention an edge guard will lead to a kill for her too just about as often as Marth, since an edgeguard will normally lead to a gimp for Marcinas and if not, her aerials are now about as strong as prepatch Marth tipper so they WILL kill fairly early offstage.
Saying Marth is more likely to kill simply because of his tipper is wrong because landing that tipper is also tied to how skilled the Marth is at spacing, how skilled the opponent is at evading or how good their recovery is. It's not simple at all. Against better recoveries/opponents, chances are you're going to need to focus on even landing the fair let alone the tipper. If he lands the sour he will obviously be killing later than Lucina.
If you're bad at spacing with Marth, then why are you playing Marth? Seems rather counterintuitive.
When you're used to a character's tools you should reach a point where you aren't thinking as hard about spacing because it comes naturally.


I said you talked as if she didn't have kill confirms (figurative speech), you talked about Marth's kill confirms through Jab and how Lucina couldnt utilise it to the same effect without addressing the fact that she doesn't use those kill confirms, she has her own.

Marth's Nair Usmash? Usmash comes out 3 frames slower than Fsmash not to mention to land the Usmash you would need a sour nair. Chances are, that confirm won't work until very late, Not sure why you are bringing up stage positioning since if that was an issue Lucina could use her own Nair > Usmash which outclasses Marth's.
Also why would it not be a good thing? It's his sourspot it's supposed to be weaker.
I'm saying Marth with a broken usmash would be amazing, possibly broken, and I don't want that.

But forget that, Why would Marth want to use Nair confirms? That's Lucinas thing. Marth has his jab confirms and Lucina her nair confirms, which in my opinion I find alot more reliable and powerful than Marth's jab confirms, simply because tipper mechaincs mess with his confirms (you need precise spacing) and DI also messes with it. With nair confirms there's none of that and they kill earlier too.

Why would Marth not want to utilize one of his options? There isn't a reason not to use nair confirms. Nair > JC usmash works with tipper nair or sour nair, the window just lasts longer with sour nair, and it combos into the tipper hitbox. Not only that, but nair > jab is a thing. Or aerial db 1 > nair > jab. Set ups for set ups. DI after jab is pretty easy to follow up with too.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. If Lucina's sword did as much as Marth's tipper that would be flipping ridonkulous. Having "twice as many options" with a sour spot doesn't even matter because Lucinas options would be just so much stronger. But I digress.

Agreed, having the added option of choosing between sour and sweetspots for combos or kills is pretty neat but really in the heat of battle it might be quite difficult to actually choose the option you want especially against characters with even better options, mobility, etc (e.g the top tiers)

Some thoughts in the quote.

The origin of the Marth and Lucina discussion this time stemmed from ぱみゅ noticing that people respect Marth more, too much in their opinion, yet don't respect Lucina in similar situations and exploit the character more. TTTTTsd pointed out that it might be due to Marth's jab and how it allows him deadly follow ups, something Lucina tends to lack. Lucina does have kill confirms, but they tend to come from nair, which is harder to land than a jab and you're committing to it. This wasn't about their kill confirms it's about why players find Marth more threatening enough to respect him more. And not that a discussion over their kill confirms isn't fine and all, but it's been done before whereas this 'respect' topic has not.

EDIT:

I'm actually kind of curious where the Ness vs Lucas issue stands right now.

I feel like Ness has a much better neutral and lord knows this is a game that highly favors characters with good neutral (hence Diddy's dominance) and back then he seemed like a huge up-and-comer, but Lucas just reaps so many rewards. Doesn't feel like there's many reps left standing for the former while the latter has at least carved out a niche that is getting increasingly more impressive. I wonder if there's ever going to be a time where Lucas will have safely overtaken Ness.

I find Lucas' neutral to be better than Ness' until I get to higher percents where obvious Ness shenanigans come into play. Ness' lack luster mobility and less potent zoning tools makes him a lot easier to zone or rush down than Lucas. Ness has a much better advantage state however and I think that's the main reason why Ness is seen as the superior of the two right now.

 

[Fenny]

Raptor's MU chart.
I think it's a bit optimistic heh

Man, there are a lot of top tier MU spreads these days....

 

[FamilyTeam]

The day has come.

Before I even start this post, I'd first like to thank the Brazilian Smash community for helping me make this post as rich as it'll probably be by the end, and most notably the player Takao.
I hope this will spark some interesting discussion, and I legit hope that people will read this entire post and try to counter-argue my points, so in the end we all come out smarter.
I will start off by saying this: I have absolutely nothing against Marth and Marth players, and at the end of the day, I do believe Marth is a better character than Lucina while also believing there is probably a gap between them, of which I estimate should be around 5 to 9 spots in a tier list. Lucina's theory is roughly as good as Marth while being an extremely good character in her own right, but lack of actual showing of her theory and next to nonexistant tournament results other than fairly recent ones (thanks, Kogarasuma!) to me make it hard to place her next to Marth, but she's also too similar to Marth while also simultaneously being too good to be place so far apart from him. Taking those into consideration, I came up with the "5 to 9 spots" theory on my own about a month ago. On my current tier list (which I might show someday), I actually have them both separated by 8 spots (Marth is 15th, Lucina is 23rd), if you want to get an idea of how I rate them.

Anyway, this is it. My "thesis" about Lucina.


1. RANGE

First, I'd like to start by the point that's been most argued about Marth vs. Lucina in this thread before: Range. I know I've done so many posts regarding this already, but I wouldn't be talking about this if I hadn't got anything new to say, but then again, it wouldn't make sense for me to just make new points without presenting the old ones.
Marth's range when compared to Lucina is, by all intents and purposes, the exact same. The main point I've always seen that supports the theory that Marth somehow has always more range than Lucina is their sword range, let's take a look:

At first this might seem convincing enough proof, and first time I saw it, I must admit I didn't know how to counter this myself. But then, remembering just how inaccurate these kind of models tend to be, I started having my own doubts.
I decided to test their range, and measuring distance through the pixels in Duck Hunt, I was able to find out the range in their grounded moves was, indeed, the exact same. It's just that Lucina's hitboxes extend far beyond her sword. and with Shield Breaker especially and arguably most infamously. Here's the first example I found that shows how long ahead it hits, don't judge me. There's swearing in the video so I can't link it directly.
There you go, even with a neat little time freeze for you to see. Believe me when I say that it actually hits much farther ahead than that.
But here are some other examples of how much her hitbox hits farther than her sword in WebM form:

Lastly, if you don't believe these, the nail in coffin is analysis of the hitboxes themselves. When we do that...

"Lucina is 29 spaces lower than Marth."
"Wait, how come?"
"She has less range-"

These memes need to die pic.twitter.com/Bne5aiGAt6

— Jonty (skarfelt.bsky.social) 🇵🇸 (@Skarfelt_) July 7, 2016

...we find the exact same thing.
I hope none of this is news to you. If this is, I hope you've atleast been educated. However, this is where most people would shift tone and say Marth has better vertical range than Lucina. I will admit I probably was one of the first ones that started spreading this word around in this thread, or atleast I was one of the first I saw doing that. I am not wrong in this, obviously. Marth has very slightly more vertical range that makes him able to unreliably hit people on Battlefield's platforms with his Side Smash and Jab 1, much like I show in my video:

But this made me wonder: Can Lucina really not do this as well?...
Yes. Yes she can. I was going to post some WebMs here of me doing just that, but I'm afraid my time is limited, nowadays.
Marth actually can hit people on Battlefield's platforms less unreliably than Lucina (The average amount of times I had to try to clip someone with Marth's was 12, the average for Lucina's was 30, and she could also do this against less characters). This does show that the difference is there, but is more negligible than you think, and if you already thought it was negligible, it's even more than that.

2. NEUTRAL GAME

Something I have always heard quite a lot is that thanks to the tipper, Marth has a better neutral game than Lucina. One of the biggest points I have heard in the past about Marth being better than Lucina in this regard is his tippered moves being safer on shield than Lucina's. I will admit this is also a point I didn't really know how to counter, but I will once again thank Takao for bringing up some interesting points to light. First, this is a chart he made regarding their Shield Safety in frames:

(Marth's data here is tipper/sourspot)
As we can see, their Shield Safety is actually mostly the same, with almost negligible frame differences, with Lucina's moves even being as effective as Marth's Tipper on shield. Marth's Tipper does have more hitlag and shield pushback, and he has that going for him. That can often make your enemy whiff his punish and make you get the feeling it is somehow safer on shield when in reality it's kind of not, it's just as unsafe but the timing is a bit different. Not only that, the incleased stun actually gives your enemy a bit of time to Shield DI his way back in to neglect the pushback. Yes, Shield DI, which is something I will admit I hadn't even heard of properly until a couple of weeks ago when I found the Beefy Smash Doods video on Shield Locks. If you'd like to watch it, here it is:

3. DAMAGE OUTPUT AND KNOCK-OUT POWER

Something that was being widely discussed earlier in this thread is Marth's Aerials vs. Lucina's Aerials. Firstly, let's hark back to that thread I link all the time, the one comparing Marcina's KO potential. Quoting myself:

AERIALS

Neutral Air (Second hit):

vs. : 116% (tippered) 189% (non-tippered)
vs. : 136% (tippered) 220% (non-tippered)
vs. : 155% (tippered) 251% (non-tippered)


vs. : 154%
vs. : 178%
vs. : 204%

Forward Air:

vs. : 130% (tippered) 209% (non-tippered)
vs. : 152% (tippered) 243% (non-tippered)
vs. : 174% (tippered) 277% (non-tippered)


vs. : 162%
vs. : 188%
vs. : 215%

Back Air:

vs. : 112% (tippered) 176% (non-tippered)
vs. : 132% (tippered) 204% (non-tippered)
vs. : 152% (tippered) 234% (non-tippered)


vs. : 134%
vs. : 156%
vs. : 179%


Up Air:

vs. : 108% (tippered) 159% (non-tippered)
vs. : 136% (tippered) 198% (non-tippered)
vs. : 152% (tippered) 221% (non-tippered)


vs. : 132%
vs. : 166%
vs. : 184%

We can actually observe a bit of a difference. Marth's tippered aerials do KO a fair bit earlier while Lucina's atleast always KO at realistic percents especially when compared to Marth's Sourspots. But, taking into account I tested those values center stage, all of them still KO somewhat early. Lucina's still have quite a bit of power while not requiring nearly as much microspacing, and something to knock someone out, that can be crucial. I actually have KOd a Captain Falcon once at 100% of the top of Battlefielf with a rageless, fresh Up Air from Lucina. There's also the time where I once KOd a Sheik with a stray Back Air at 80%. There was also the time where this didn't KO me:

Please play no mind with how I was playing this match it was very laggy. I know I still have a lot to complain about my skill, but DI isn't really one of them. Even then, maybe we might be overrating how strong Marth's aerials can be when compared to Lucie's. When it comes to edgeguards, some people are acting like Lucina's aerials are never gonna KO anyone offstage, which is funny considering how often I've gotten early KOs with Lucina's Neutral Air offstage. Even though I do still get a lot of blast KOs, you don't even need to knock someone out with the aerial alone for the edgeguard to be successful. Even in the odd chance your target does survive, a lot of times they're way to far to realistically come back with most characters. Offstage, I've bopped people at 70% with stage 1 rage Neutral Air in the past.

Moving on from Aerials, let's go Tilts. Marth's Side Tilt here is clearly a much better choice for KOing, but my mate Takao actually brought up an interesting point I had never thought of in the past: Staleness. As early as Marth's tippered Side Tilt may or may not knock you out, both of the characters need to use their Side Tilt often to cover ground, space and make people approaching with shorthops get off of you. This means that even though Marth's Side Tilt might get you early in theory, it's never gonna be as early as you might wish in actual practice, and you also need to take into account you actually need to space around to get the tipper, something not every player and character is gonna exactly give you the luxury of, and Marth's Sour Side Tilt, which, by the way, exists, isn't exactly your friend.

Forward/Side Tilt:

vs. : 127% (tippered) 248% (non-tippered)
vs. : 147% (tippered) 288% (non-tippered)
vs. : 169% (tippered) 329% (non-tippered)

Both of their Up Tilts are good. They can be used as a fast anti-air, combo option, a KO option and something to hit people in your back. Curiously, Lucina's deals more damage on the back hit than on the front hit. I've actually seen both of them KO with this move at reasonable percents, with Marth's Tippered Up Tilt obviously getting people earlier. I'd say Marth's is better here, due to some of the combos I've seen he pull off, here (though Lucina can still pull off most), along with Tippeered Up Tilt being a very good and actually mostly viable option.

Smashes. Lucina's Up Smash is... basically strictly better.

Up Smash: (Note: Tipper is N/A against enemies on the floor)

vs.

• Uncharged: 58% (tippered), 93% (non-tippered)
  
• Fully Charged: 30% (tippered, 59% (non-tippered)

vs.

• Uncharged: 76% (tippered), 123% (non-tippered)
  
• Fully Charged: 45% (tippered), 78% (non-tippered)

vs.

• Uncharged: 86% (tippered), 134% (non-tippered)
  
• Fully Charged: 52% (tippered), 91% (non-tippered)

vs.

• Uncharged: 85%
• Fully Charged: 52%

vs.

• Uncharged: 109%
• Fully Charged: 72%

vs.

• Uncharged: 125%
• Fully Charged: 80%

I have only seen about 4 tippered Up Smashes in my time. They're extremely situational, very finnicky and pretty hard to set up into anyway. The setup I know of is Down Air Spike into Tippered Up Smash for a very early knockout, though that'd require using Down Air to land, which is risky, you can simply miss the spike, which is easy to miss, and your opponent can tech grounded spikes anyway. They both pretty much have identical, very strong Up Smashes with Lucina's getting people about 6-8% earlier.
Side Smash. This is the big one. Lucina's Side Smash is strong but it still manages to surprise even me every day. Without requiring even half the spacing Marth does, you get a Frame 10 Side Smash that gets people at 70% rageless near the ledge, and even a little bit of rage makes this move disgustingly powerful. I once got a Mewtwo centre-stage at 53% with her uncharged Side Smash after an airdodge read (I was at Stage 2 rage, granted). I've lost track of all the people I got at 60-80% after a punish near the ledge. Bloody hell...

The sheer power of this move has even surprised ESAM. That coupled with the two setups everyone always mentions that true combo into it make this a very dangerous move.
Now, into Specials. Their Down and Up Special are the exact same thing. Up Special actually is a pretty underappreciated KO move for both of them, being able to get people relatively early, especially with how fast it is. For the Side Special, it's a bit simple: Lucina's is better for more reliably getting damage as Marth's while Marth's tends to KO a bit earlier. Using training mode damage (which is incorrect, but still good for reference):

:
Up Finisher: 17% (16% in a real match)
Neutral Finisher: 16%
Down Finisher: 24% (20% in a real match)

:
Up Finisher: 16-18% (15-18 in a real match)
Neutral Finisher: 15%-17%
Down Finisher: 22% (18-20% in a real match)

However, I got KOd by Marth's Tippered Up Finisher at 101% with Mario, while I've never seen Lucina's get anyone under 120%, so I'd say Marth's is far supperior for getting people.

As for Shield Breaker... To me, Lucina's will always be far more useful as a general move to use. I personally use it as an extented, very disjointed poke that goes around spot and airdodges, and since that rarely earns me tippers, I like Lucina's version of this move like it is. Marth's is better if you eventually get a shield break in your opponent, but Lucina's fully charged Shield Breaker actually doesn't KO people that much later than Marth's fully charged tippered, and both of them get people very early near the ledge (which is where hopefully all of your shield break punishes occur), so, in my honest opinion, Lucina's is better for me, though I'd say this is personal preference. One thing I can say about poking shields with this thing is actually trying to space around next to the tip when you hit the shield - this way, most characters just lose 90% of their shield for free and can't punish you for it. But if you mispace it, you're gonna get punished pretty badly, and the faster characters will still get you either way, so it's always a risk...

Neutral Special:

vs.

• Uncharged: 132% (tippered) 205% (non-tippered)
• Fully Charged: 36% (tippered) 68% (non-tippered)

vs.

• Uncharged: 153% (tippered) 241% (non-tippered)
• Fully Charged: 45% (tippered) 82% (non-tippered)

vs.

• Uncharged: 176% (tippered) 275% (non-tippered)
• Fully Charged: 54% (tippered) 96% (non-tippered)

vs.

• Uncharged: 167%
• Fully Charged: 51%

vs.

• Uncharged: 193%
• Fully Charged: 62%

vs.

• Uncharged: 220%
• Fully Charged: 74%

4. COMBOS

Lucina has actually a bit of her own combo game. Something people always mention is her now traditional Nair 1 into Side Smash true combo, here:

and also aerial Dancing Blade 1>Nair 1>Side Smash true combo:

but she actually has the same options Marth would have, such as (DB1>)Nair 1>Up Smash/Side Tilt/Up Tilt/Up Special:

It's also worth noting that, in the air at lower percents, Lucina has Forward Air>Forward Air>Up Special, which also does a decent damage and knockback, one Fair>Up Special still works to a decent percent.
Lucina most importantly has better combos out of her falling Up Air, as displayed here:

Not only are these much more reliable and easier with Lucina, but they also put your opponent at exactly the range Nair 1>Side Smash starts working (about 60-70%), and in the ledge, Lucina's Side Smash will KO you as soon as that true combo starts working.
At percents closer to 0, this video actually shows something I've always done for quite a while:

It often displays how Lucina's aerials if used at close range can link into Down Tilt for additional damage, and even after this damage is caused, the enemy is still in the range for a Down Throw>Up Air. Although the video didn't show it, after the Down Tilt, if you're familiarized with your opponents shielding habits, you can actually immediatly go for a Dancing Blade with a Down Finisher to deal even more damage. Speaking of that video and Dancing Blade, it also shows something interesting, which is how Lucina's aerials sometimes link into a full Dancing Blade combo after them, which again deals very solid damage.
I also want to end this particular topic by saying that Marth having a sourspot in no way in hell gives him at any point "twice the options". Just because his hits have two possible outcomes, that doesn't mean he gets two different options out of them. He might just get something out of both or nothing out of both.

5. MY OPINION ON MATCHUPS

This is a controversial topic, but based on what I saw and my own MU experience, I'm gonna tackle some of their most common matchups discussed:

:
I will admit, although I always say Marth and Lucina roughly do just as well in this matchup as one another, I will say that maybe Marth has the edge here a bit. I assure you, as a long time Mario main myself, playing against both of them can be a pain if they space you out, but since Marth's tipper is located roughly at where Mario stops being a threat in range, Marth does have a bit more of an advantage here. However, this is definitely not 60:40, while Lucina's matchup with these three to me isn't 50:50, which is why I say they're both 55:45.

:
In my opinion, if you're really looking for a MU where Marth might do better than Lucina, this is the place, really. Marth's Tipper can eliminate Luma very quickly, and tippers on Luma can be easy to get thanks to how much she tends to stand still. Even if you don't eliminate it through knockback, the slight additional damage and stun his tipper do can help here. However, Marth needs to be careful since sourspots on Luma tend to do next to nothing on her, which I guess would make Lucina more consistent in this sense, since her hits are always guaranteed to do something? But even then, I feel this is better for Marth.
I have this match to refer to, just watch how many times Luma gets taken out by the tipper early:

:
Frankly, in my opinion, this is a much more comfortable matchup for Lucina than it is for Marth. Both of them can keep Captain Falcon out very well and then proceed to combo and edgeguard him, but I feel like Lucina's more balanced blade makes it much easier to space against this very fast and mobile character. Her blade is still strong enough to always keep him in the edge on damage, and she can achieve KO percent for him very fast.

:
This is complicated. I honestly believe this is just a bad MU for both and that this is just personal preference, but my own personal reasons why I think Lucina does better here is, again, the difficult of properly spacing anything against her, and even Zero agrees with me on this front. Sheik is a slim, extremely fast in-your-face character, you don't usually have the luxury microspace much against her. She ends up building a lot of rage on everyone thanks to how much damage she chips out of you, all the while having difficult in KOing opponents. Lucina heavily benefits from rage, and you don't wanna trade with enraged Lucina's aerials. What gives Marth's points in this MU is that if he does manage to space, he can end Sheik's stock fairly early with a tipper. I've also watched from some matches that it seems that Marth against Sheik ends up suffering Marth syndrome if he doesn't get a Grab>Up Throw at <160% or a stray tipper at some point, something Lucina suffers far less of when fighting Sheik, for what I see.

Interesting match I found that showcases some of the things I said.

Matchups I would've liked to comment about, but I frankly don't know much about any of the sides are Pikachu and Sonic.

CLOSING THOUGHTS

Really, if you read this post this far, I thank you. I realise I might've overdone it in the information part, but it's just a bunch of things I've been wanting to get out of my chest. I think that, much like Zero did it, we should maybe start looking at Marth and Lucina as maybe a pair, instead of two separate characters? They complete each other very well, and when people ask "Why play Lucina when there's Marth?", my answer is "Why not learn both?", because, as a player, it's only in your best benefit to be able to play both even if you might prefer one over the other. But, really, this is all that it comes down to: Preference. Most of their biggest strengths are shared, one's gameplan might simple bode with you better than the other, or maybe you just like one character better than the other period. They're an anomaly in the sense that they're so equal, yet so different. So different, yet still the same. The more things change, the more they stay the same?
All that I know is that, no matter who you choose, just remember...
"This strength more than serves me alone." - Lucina.
This might be something that Lucina said, but it definitely counts for both characters.

Sources:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...WFwy_dg04Rrq4a-YF9-VDOhZI/edit#gid=1636352940
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Marth
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Lucina
Lastly, the 1UpSmash discord and their Lucina mains, again, Takao especially.
I lament the fact that some of my WebMs couldn't be uploaded properly... ah, well...

 

[PK Gaming]

http://sourcegaming.info/2016/09/07/512/

"I’m not the creator of these games, so I’m not trying to say anything definitive. But if I had to make a statement about these sorts of games, it would be, “If someone’s using a tactic that’s giving you trouble, just adopt their tactic, and win.”"

"A competitor has the freedom to choose the same team composition as their opponent, and pull off the same combos, if they so choose. If you think overpowered moves, links, or combos are unfair, then you should just use those techniques and win. Your opponent is doing the same thing to you."

- Sakurai, literally saying Pick A Top Tier.

Certainly a far cry from when he said his goal was to give casuals and competitive players equal ground.

Guess that kills the idea of new patches unless dissent gets very loud.

I think he's talking to a more casual crowd of smashers who think moves like Cloud's Forward Smash are overpowered or that combos are inherently cheap. I don't think he's necessarily saying to pick a top tier, but rather, if you consistently lose to someone because they know how to abuse Ness's backthrow, then you have the power and ability to overcome them as well. (though ideally you'll want to adapt, rather than pick their character haha)

Balance is definitely important to him:

Of course, if the gameplay becomes too unbalanced and reliant on specific techniques and characters, that’s a problem too. Also, relying on gimmicks is a whole different conversation. However, every game that is played competitively at a high level on a global scale has different characters, gameplay styles, and results. I’ve seen Smash tournaments in the past, where every finalist played a different character, for example.

Sakurai is for sure referring to characters like pre-patch Diddy, Bayo and Sheik who had dominant, polarizing options. We can assume then, that he's satisfied with Smash in its current state where not every character is equal, but no character really stands out and completely dominates either.

Is it 100% balanced? No, but it doesn't need to be.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Remind me to slap Carlos next time I see him.

Get this **** out of here.

Cloud MU spot on tho.

Tfw Yika's name is also Carlos

 

[TTTTTsd]

Pardon me if I sound rude but whenever I hear people say "Well if you can't space Marth's tippers in the heat of the moment and whatnot" as an argument for Lucina I get kind of flustered. There are two main points I often run by in my head. The first one is

- Difficulty of use does not and should not ever be a thing (in instances like these) when discussing the viability of something. I like to use the comparison of Dhalsim vs. Balrog in ST as an example for this. Balrog is for all intents and purposes worse than Dhalsim, but he has to make less difficult decisions all around and is generally an easier character to figure out and do clutch stuff with. However, when Dhalsim is used properly he is absolutely devastating and can not be stopped at all if he has you on lock and makes good choices, he just has to make them more meaningfully because his lower health and lack of a reliable reversal get him killed. In this sense, Balrog probably seems better or more worth using to most (and to be fair Balrog is 2nd best in the game, Dhalsim being 1st, to my knowledge.)
- My second point, and I don't know how contentious this actually is, is that if you're using either Marth or Lucina, you should be going for tippers, whether they exist or not. It just seems weird to me, why would you ever aim for the base of the sword with Lucina? Doing anything but making the most out of your range is (effectively) ignoring the biggest boon that both of these characters share, which is their range. They are both at their safest (and best) when they are fully spacing all of their aerials. There is a good chance that if you're against a fast top tier character and they're in the range of the base of your sword or close enough in that the tipper is meaningless....well at that point neither character is going to be able to do much, are they? It's kinda why this whole consistency thing has never rung with me, both characters aim to box people out so why would it realistically matter if one could afford to hit at the base when the fact that a character being in that range (and not in disadvantage state) means that they're in a bad situation.

For what it's worth, Lucina isn't really a bad character, but the more tipper/sourspot stuff people find with Marth, the longer the distance between them is gonna get, outside of the whole rewarded more for spacing things factor.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Pardon me if I sound rude but whenever I hear people say "Well if you can't space Marth's tippers in the heat of the moment and whatnot" as an argument for Lucina I get kind of flustered. There are two main points I often run by in my head. The first one is

- Difficulty of use does not and should not ever be a thing (in instances like these) when discussing the viability of something. I like to use the comparison of Dhalsim vs. Balrog in ST as an example for this. Balrog is for all intents and purposes worse than Dhalsim, but he has to make less difficult decisions all around and is generally an easier character to figure out and do clutch stuff with. However, when Dhalsim is used properly he is absolutely devastating and can not be stopped at all if he has you on lock and makes good choices, he just has to make them more meaningfully because his lower health and lack of a reliable reversal get him killed. In this sense, Balrog probably seems better or more worth using to most (and to be fair Balrog is 2nd best in the game, Dhalsim being 1st, to my knowledge.)
- My second point, and I don't know how contentious this actually is, is that if you're using either Marth or Lucina, you should be going for tippers, whether they exist or not. It just seems weird to me, why would you ever aim for the base of the sword with Lucina? Doing anything but making the most out of your range is (effectively) ignoring the biggest boon that both of these characters share, which is their range. They are both at their safest (and best) when they are fully spacing all of their aerials. There is a good chance that if you're against a fast top tier character and they're in the range of the base of your sword or close enough in that the tipper is meaningless....well at that point neither character is going to be able to do much, are they? It's kinda why this whole consistency thing has never rung with me, both characters aim to box people out so why would it realistically matter if one could afford to hit at the base when the fact that a character being in that range (and not in disadvantage state) means that they're in a bad situation.

For what it's worth, Lucina isn't really a bad character, but the more tipper/sourspot stuff people find with Marth, the longer the distance between them is gonna get, outside of the whole rewarded more for spacing things factor.

It is a factor that you have to take into consideration. As much as we'd probably like it, you really cannot look at Marth's sword at a vaccum and pretend it's just one massive tipper hitbox and nothing else. Sourspots exist and some characters force sourspot hits while simultaneously making microscaping harder against them. So in a way, it is a valid point, if you can't even reach your most damaging hitbox with any level of consinstency.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It is a factor that you have to take into consideration. As much as we'd probably like it, you really cannot look at Marth's sword at a vaccum and pretend it's just one massive tipper hitbox and nothing else. Sourspots exist and some characters force sourspot hits while simultaneously making microscaping harder against them. So in a way, it is a valid point, if you can't even reach your most damaging hitbox with any level of consinstency.

I haven't heard of any characters forcing sourspots outside of poor spacing. Accounting for different hurtboxes is a part of this, and it's a thing that most Marths learn (stuff like tumble, etc.). And if you can't adjust to spacing tippers at that point, I don't know why you'd use either Falchion and not just Mario or a top tier that doesn't have a spacing requirement that intricate because if you're not using the maximum range of the Falchion you're missing out on the largest boon of the character. Not being willing to adhere to character specific things in a game about them seems odd.

The usual simple fact is that if you're not hitting your tippers mostly consistently then it's a problem with your spacing.

But this doesn't really change my point, if a character being in Marth/Lucina's face is a natural bad thing, then how good of a benefit is a stronger base hit? It's a question worth asking that I've never seen answered fully.

 

[Nu~]

Sooo...

We can say Marth gets rewarded more for playing to his strengths while Lucina gets punished slightly less when people break through those strengths (getting in her face) or when you mess up.

But even this is inaccurate because Lucina still gets punished just as hard for spacing poorly on shield...she simply gets more reward than Marth when she lands an attack that has been miss-spaced...

Or something like that.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So there are actually complaints about Mewtwo now? Wow...

A handful of people pointing out that a character is super-good now =/= complaining.

Seeing complaints where there aren't any and then, ironically enough, complaining about that seems to be kind of a big deal in this thread. Stuff like that seems to pop up just about every time a new character is being talked about.

"Omfg people are complaining about Bayonetta now??? Wow!!!11"

NO, THEY AREN'T.

They're just pointing out that she's still a really freaking good character, that her results this summer have been quite tremendous and that she might still be a top 5 character after all.

"So there are actually comoplaints about Mewtwo now? Wow..."

... nope. There's just a vast number of fields where Mewtwo ranks as one of the best characters now and people are realizing that. Nothing more, nothing less.

Don't be an idiot.

 

[FamilyTeam]

Sooo...

We can say Marth gets rewarded more for playing to his strengths while Lucina gets punished slightly less when people break through those strengths (getting in her face) or when you mess up.

But even this is inaccurate because Lucina still gets punished just as hard for spacing poorly on shield...she simply gets more reward than Marth when she lands an attack that has been miss-spaced...

Or something like that.

That point about the neutral game basically shows that they're borderline the exact same thing. If you swatted someone's shield and got off scot-free, you probably would've gotten off unharmed with both, while if you hit someone and got punished for it, it's likely you'll get punished the same way for both. Which shows that their Neutral Game when it comes to shield safety does not benefit one or the other.

I haven't heard of any characters forcing sourspots outside of poor spacing. Accounting for different hurtboxes is a part of this, and it's a thing that most Marths learn (stuff like tumble, etc.). And if you can't adjust to spacing tippers at that point, I don't know why you'd use either Falchion and not just Mario or a top tier that doesn't have a spacing requirement that intricate because if you're not using the maximum range of the Falchion you're missing out on the largest boon of the character. Not being willing to adhere to character specific things in a game about them seems odd.

The usual simple fact is that if you're not hitting your tippers mostly consistently then it's a problem with your spacing.

But this doesn't really change my point, if a character being in Marth/Lucina's face is a natural bad thing, then how good of a benefit is a stronger base hit? It's a question worth asking that I've never seen answered fully.

You shouldn't really let people penetrate your defence much. But in case they do, which they most likely will at some point, since no player is perfect, you're not always hitting people at tipper range and you simply do not always get tippers when you want them else Marth Syndrome wouldn't exist, having a sword that's stronger all around can be better to make people get off of you and then eventually deal more damage like that. You really can't just automatically assume you're always doing perfect spacing. If that's the case, then even the best Marths in the world are bad. If we were to look at sweet and sourspots in a vaccuum, you could also say Roy is better than Lucina because you in theory should be always spacing for the hilt and always KOing early. Assuming you're always getting tippers when you want is, to me, a lot of theory and very little practice.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Assuming you're always getting tippers when you want is, to me, a lot of theory and very little practice.

I mean the best Marth I've seen play is Leo and whenever he wants to hit a tipper he does so pretty regularly. This doesn't really answer my question, either. Even if you're not hitting 100% Tippers, even 70-80 is pretty damn good. If our Marths aren't hitting them a lot then perhaps they will as they improve at the game and get better. This is another point in his favor, which is mostly a higher skill ceiling (it's debatably the most relevant point in his favor too but it's been echoed like a million times.) But really, how good is a benefit if the benefit it brings runs in opposition to the best aspect of the character?

Also bringing up Roy is both pointless and irrelevant tbh, he flows and plays completely differently than either character, the basic NUANCES of how he works is fundamentally different from Marth and Lucina in every conceivable way down to his low, mid, and high % game, and how he achieves his goal. I don't know how he's relevant to this discussion at all. His mobility and general movement skew his best spacing to be the hilt.

 

[FamilyTeam]

I mean the best Marth I've seen play is Leo and whenever he wants to hit a tipper he does so pretty regularly. This doesn't really answer my question, either. Even if you're not hitting 100% Tippers, even 70-80 is pretty damn good. If our Marths aren't hitting them a lot then perhaps they will as they improve at the game and get better. This is another point in his favor, which is mostly a higher skill ceiling (it's debatably the most relevant point in his favor too but it's been echoed like a million times.)

You don't see people getting tippers only even in Melee, where you have far more movement options to actually get to tipper range. I think I saw an analysis a while ago and one of the better known Marth mains (I think Leo, can't say for sure) only really gets tippers, like, 40% of the time.
If you want a match that demonstrates even more Marth Syndrome stuff:

 

[TTTTTsd]

You don't see people getting tippers only even in Melee, where you have far more movement options to actually get to tipper range. I think I saw an analysis a while ago and one of the better known Marth mains (I think Leo, can't say for sure) only really gets tippers, like, 40% of the time.
If you want a match that demonstrates even more Marth Syndrome stuff:

FWIW 40% is still 40% more of the time he's being rewarded more for playing the matchup properly. I'd also probably feel it mattered more if the damage Marth got from a sourspot was DRASTICALLY worse (not just 2-3%, in the case of jab it's only worse by a few decimal points). Now if we assume 40% as a rate (that's pretty solid!) the damage kind of evens up but the amount of opportunities in which a tipper can lead into a direct kill is also proportionally higher because of their power.

This still doesn't answer my question (ctrl+C). In a character who has their specs tuned specifically to hit with the tip of the blade, how does the benefit of having a stronger base matter to a significant level? Note that this does not mean certain moves can't be better (Nair, Bair, FSmash) but rather, when you look at it overall, as a whole. This still has not really told me how no tippers is something that can be marketed as anything but either a sidegrade at best or a downgrade at worst.

Also Marth Sourspots in Melee are WAY WAY BETTER than they are in Smash 4. Mostly because the disadvantaged state in Melee is pretty awesome in that you usually get your butt juggled left and right, you'll see Marth combining Sours and Tippers because the Sourspots have low knockback which naturally lets them lead into each other. Also Melee is a totally different game, I don't see how that's worth bringing up. While I'm at it, Melee Marth is an entirely different character.

 

[Solfiner]

Getting tippers even 90% of the time is probably close to impossible on good players. Even then you don't want only tippers because some sourspots can lead into other combos. With that being said I do think that Marth is generally better, but Lucina does have some unique nuances that can make her threatening (Like the Nair1 > Fsmash stuff.)

Other than that there are certain things you have to consider that's different against them, like how you might want to DI into Marth in certain weird situations to mess up his tipper micro spacing, which obviously wouldn't work against Lucina. Don't sleep too hard on this character guys.

 

[Kofu]

FamilyTeam since you admitted that Lucina, while good, is nevertheless likely several points behind Marth on a tier list, I really don't see what you're arguing about or what you're trying to accomplish. Your post was designed, I feel, to clear up misconceptions about Lucina (and it did a good job at that). However, I feel like most people in this thread get that Lucina got as much from buffs as Marth has and thus is not a bad character. She even has a few moves that are, in many cases, better. But I agree with TTTTTsd that Marth gets rewarded more for playing the game that they both want to play (optimal spacing). Theoretically you could switch between the two with minimal hassle, and could do so against characters who are mobile enough to make landing tippers difficult. But Marth is probably always going to be the more favorable choice for high-level players because of his reward.

Mostly irrelevant question, but I hear the Falchions' FSmashes being touted as frame 10. Given that the attack is arcing, does it actually have a hitbox right in front at startup, or does it take a couple of frames to reach that point?

 

[TTTTTsd]

If I ever make the argument that Lucina is a bad character and the year isn't like 2040 where we're all robots anyways, I want you to shoot me. I don't know how anything I posted could be interpreted as sleeping on the character, I just feel like her core mechanic with her sword does not mesh well with Marth's moveset.

I don't recall ever calling the character bad or even not good. I will however always sit on the idea of her mechanic running opposite to the mobility and kit she was given. Also a tipper rate of 40, the more I think about it, is actually pretty good considering the sourspot stuff has combo/utility for setups (there's a clip I have on demand that I can link if you're interested). So you don't want to be hitting tippers all the time anyways, which is fair enough.

I still haven't been told how it's mostly a good thing, so I'll leave it at that. Also Kofu I don't believe either of their FSmashes actually hit on the 10th frame, it's like 11-13 where it starts hitting in front noticeably (right around when the blade arcs diagonally downwards, it has an admittedly bad hitbox above them that can't hit platforms like it looks like it should)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You can't quantify the threat of getting hit by a tipper or the effects it has on a match in percentages. If you lose a set because you get his by Marth's tipper at percents you could've survived if it were Lucina you're not gonna care about whether the odds of that happening were 25% or only 20. What matters is that you die at 75% in one instance and survive at 100% in the other. And since you only have either 4 or 6 stocks in most metas one single tipper can just screw you up entirely.

 

[FamilyTeam]

FamilyTeam since you admitted that Lucina, while good, is nevertheless likely several points behind Marth on a tier list, I really don't see what you're arguing about or what you're trying to accomplish. Your post was designed, I feel, to clear up misconceptions about Lucina (and it did a good job at that). However, I feel like most people in this thread get that Lucina got as much from buffs as Marth has and thus is not a bad character. She even has a few moves that are, in many cases, better. But I agree with TTTTTsd that Marth gets rewarded more for playing the game that they both want to play (optimal spacing). Theoretically you could switch between the two with minimal hassle, and could do so against characters who are mobile enough to make landing tippers difficult. But Marth is probably always going to be the more favorable choice for high-level players because of his reward.

Frankly you'd be surprised how many people actually don't know this stuff in this very thread, just go back a couple of pages and you can basically see people insinuating Lucina's aerials cannot kill or that Marth can do X combo that kills and Lucina can't. In the other thread you still saw a lot of people perpetuating that misconception that she somehow has less range and that it makes a massive difference in their Tier List placement, which wasn't true. I made that post to really clear the air up about a lot of that stuff and more.
If she really was recognized by her own merits she wouldn't be a gatekeeper for Low Tier in our tier list.

You can't quantify the threat of getting hit by a tipper or the effects it has on a match in percentages. If you lose a set because you get his by Marth's tipper at percents you could've survived if it were Lucina you're not gonna care about whether the odds of that happening were 25% or only 20. What matters is that you die at 75% in one instance and survive at 100% in the other. And since you only have either 4 or 6 stocks in most metas one single tipper can just screw you up entirely.

I think I said this earlier that using this sort of argument can kinda go both ways. Yeah, one match you're getting bopped at 50 with a tipper, the next you're getting bopped with Lucie's Side Smash at 65.

 

[Locke 06]

Optimal swordplay is not always landing tippers. If you're baiting correctly with your sword, your opponent extends their hurtbox trying to hit you, narrowly miss, and you use your disjoint to win without extending your hurtbox. If you are getting tippers with this, your opponent had no chance of hitting you in the first place.

Swords are not just about poking at max range.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Swords are not just about poking at max range.

Certainly not, that's why characters like Roy, Link, and Cloud exist. Also Ike, can't forget him.

But Marth's mobility and kit are SPECIFICALLY ATTUNED to hitting at max range, that's why his weaving is so good, that's why his SH is so floaty, etc. etc. The way the character moves, the area he is safest in, and how he works in general are specifically catered to his tippers. The same way Roy is NEVER EVER going to aim for tippers outside of jab locks, specific jank, strings (usually Fair > Fair if the first one pushes too far for another sweetspot) and whatnot.

I just can't legitimately view a lack of said mechanic on Marth's exact attributes as more than what it is, which is counterform to his attributes and how his stats are.

 

[Joey T.]

Great post FamilyTeam , while Marth may be better, it shows that Lucina is no joke to his side, and she should be respected as well. I have one question to complement that post. In it, you show a lot of raw data like shieldstun and kill percentages, but what is your opinion on more practical things, like conditioning your opponent, baiting, PP shenanigans, footstool combos, etc.? Are they still the same or does one surpass the other?

 

[Ethan7]

@TSM ZeRo on why he thinks is the best character in the game.

 

[Das Koopa]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Congrats to the winner of GENESIS 4

 

[Deleted member]

@TSM ZeRo on why he thinks is the best character in the game.

As a Rosalina main myself I wholeheartedly disagree with her being the best in the game, even if she's an indeed very strong character. I'm surprised ZeRo never mentioned not being a fun matchup for Rosa either. Hell, Dabuz thinks Rosa has a troublesome matchup with (though I'm pretty ambivalent on that).

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Congrats to the winner of GENESIS 4

BREAKING NEWS: little village boy brutally beats up and drops bowling ball on harambe

 

[Joey T.]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Congrats to the winner of GENESIS 4

If he managed to pull that out without us knowing it it would be hype. This also works with DK's side b right? AFAIK it works with all burying moves