Rizen
Smash Legend
That's too bad
Like I said, Pit's obviously the better character. I was just pointing out the notable DDD, Ganon and Falco players.
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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions
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Like I said, Pit's obviously the better character. I was just pointing out the notable DDD, Ganon and Falco players.
TheGoodGuava
Smash Ace
As others have said its just one hitbox and it takes a while for it to actually come out and the faf makes it pretty bad offstage, other than that fair is amazing for a normal and its plenty enough to shut down approaches from characters with poor range
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bc1910
Smash Lord
Greninja trashes Lucas. He is potentially Lucas' worst MU. Greninja is the most natural Lucas counter.
Roy is actually around 45:55 and potentially even. Not a MU Greninja likes. Sort of comes down to Roy being massively underrated in general though.
Aside from the aforementioned, the DLC goes even with Greninja except for Cloud (we probably lose) and Mewtwo (we probably win).
He might have the best Mewtwo MU in the game.
WaDi's opinion only serves to back this up.
Roy is actually around 45:55 and potentially even. Not a MU Greninja likes. Sort of comes down to Roy being massively underrated in general though.
Aside from the aforementioned, the DLC goes even with Greninja except for Cloud (we probably lose) and Mewtwo (we probably win).
Greninja does not lose to Mewtwo.In terms of DLC, I think
He might have the best Mewtwo MU in the game.
WaDi's opinion only serves to back this up.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
I dunno, I'd say
have better Mewtwo matchups, but I'm open to your opinion considering I don't main Greninja.What makes you say Roy is massively underrated too?
bc1910
Smash Lord
On balance I would agree that Diddy might have a better Mewtwo MU because (without going in-depth) he dominates harder in neutral. We haven't seen huge developments with Mewtwo abusing Diddy's disadvantage, though, which could be pretty big considering Mewtwo can catch his landings more easily than most and has various disjoints with which to challenge Monkey Flip. It's just that going by the opinions of WaDi and other top players, plus my own experience, Greninja does very well against Mewtwo. It's definitely a claim to fame for Greninja in the current meta.I dunno, I'd say
What makes you say Roy is massively underrated too?
I don't see Cloud having a better M2 matchup with his recovery being so vulnerable to Dsmash by the ledge. It's simply not a counterstrat we see often enough (don't even get me started on the underuse of Dsmash in footsies).
I'm not a big Roy conspiracy theorist or anything, I can just recognise the danger behind a character with such good mobility and frame data. Results aren't backing me up here - but it's more a complete lack of results (think pre-buff Greninja) than a good playerbase with lacklustre results (think Link). It's somewhat hard to judge the character's value at this point, I just think he has more to offer than most other mid-tiers.
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Roy? Highly doubt that's even. He just get's massacred off stage, get's combo'd very hard, doesn't have good answers to shurikens. SH Nair is nice, has disjoints, and he's got good ground speed, but Greninja still solidly outclasses him in the mobility department and has his own disjoint as well.
Overall, I think greninja gives all the swordsmen trouble bar Cloud and maybe Toon Link.
Overall, I think greninja gives all the swordsmen trouble bar Cloud and maybe Toon Link.
D
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I'd hesitate to call Roy's mobility that impressive.
He has a good run speed and extended dash dance but his walk has an acceleration of 0 (same issue every swordfighter has bar for whatever reason) and he has one of the worst air accelerations in the game. It seriously hurts his stringing potential and gives him pretty bad air physics (poor air drift) in combination with his high fall speed. He also doesn't have much in way of mixing up his approaches, from what I can see.
He has a good run speed and extended dash dance but his walk has an acceleration of 0 (same issue every swordfighter has bar
for whatever reason) and he has one of the worst air accelerations in the game. It seriously hurts his stringing potential and gives him pretty bad air physics (poor air drift) in combination with his high fall speed. He also doesn't have much in way of mixing up his approaches, from what I can see.
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Krysco
Aeon Hero
Yeah, Roy's air acceleration is a pain to work with sometimes. You can't jump towards your opponent and then swerve away with a fair or nair. You're going to head straight into the opponent if you jump towards them. A similar problem Ryu has to put up with. I tend to stay grounded with Roy, currently working with the usual method of movement: dashing and shielding to stop but Roy is tied for having the worst dash to shield in the game so I've been trying to make EDD and perfect pivoting a natural thing that I can do rather than something I have to think about to do. Even then, his aforementioned poor dash to shield and poor air acceleration means projectiles can be a major issue. You either try to shield them while EDD which is slow, try shielding while walking with a slow walk acceleration or jump over it and either stay in place or go in a very uncontrollable arc towards or away from the opponent. Best Roy has for mixing up his aerial movement is breversing and wavebouncing his Flare Blade and DED.
D
Deleted member
Guest
That also bring up another point you just mentioned: Roy's dash to shield is straight up pants.
I have to admire Roys that try to work the best with what they have in terms of movement. Ryo comes to mind.
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Krysco
Aeon Hero
Yeah, Marcina, Roy and Robin (but not Ike or Corrin?) take a whopping 17 frames just to end their initial dash. Compare that to the 2 best which is under half of that, 8 frames from Sheik and Corrin. Heck, Ike is sitting at the average 11 frames so I don't know why every other FE character that has footwear was given such an awful initial dash.
Kofu
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So basically it's mediocre/bad in disadvantage but good in neutral and advantage. I can respect that.
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Sleek Media
Smash Lord
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Let's take a little trip down memory lane, when Sheik and Diddy dominated the meta with DThrow->whatever, and a certain character had the only tool that could break those combos.
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In a meta that is increasingly more movement focused and less shield heavy as time progresses, poor dash-to-shield frame data becomes less and less of an issue. The reason Marth doesn't have good dash-to-shield frame data is -probably- because dashing into shield is totally counterintuitive to his entire gameplan in the first place. It's not a big deal. Nor is it for Rosa, Peach, Falcon, Little Mac, etc.
Roy is the only character with a long dash length (in frames) that I'm confused about, because it actually hurts him a lot. He doesn't play like a traditional swordsman (he's not especially adept as a committed, ranged zoner). He's more like metaknight, in a sense, and his ends on f13. Regardless, Roy has significantly more raw mobility than just about every other character with a sword, so it's interesting thinking about what the developers may have intended for his playstyle.
Roy is the only character with a long dash length (in frames) that I'm confused about, because it actually hurts him a lot. He doesn't play like a traditional swordsman (he's not especially adept as a committed, ranged zoner). He's more like metaknight, in a sense, and his ends on f13. Regardless, Roy has significantly more raw mobility than just about every other character with a sword, so it's interesting thinking about what the developers may have intended for his playstyle.
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Luco
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Greninja beats Lucas explicitly because we can't play keepaway; Greninja just does it better in this MU. A lack of good OoS also means we don't have much to stop a Gren doing SH aerial shenanigoats and it means, unlike Ness, we don't get to turn his Dtilt / jab setups against him with Nair, we can only jump out.
But it's not our worst by any margin, Lucas' worst MU is Diddy fo sho (Although it might not be as bad as we thought, Tai v ZeRo could have looked entirely different very very easily for... Reasons). Greninja's like, a difficult -1 I think.
I've tried this MU vs Waveguider's Gren and tbh I'm going Ness every time from now on lol.
But it's not our worst by any margin, Lucas' worst MU is Diddy fo sho (Although it might not be as bad as we thought, Tai v ZeRo could have looked entirely different very very easily for... Reasons). Greninja's like, a difficult -1 I think.
I've tried this MU vs Waveguider's Gren and tbh I'm going Ness every time from now on lol.
zzmorg82
Smash Apprentice
Agreed; personally I think the match-up is even. Falco can combo Pac-Man, but once they start to play the keep-away game it can be hard to get in.
You can dash forward and jump back still, it just requires 'tech skill'. You maintain momentum in the direction you're dashing when you jump and because Roy has no extra air acceleration he gets stuck in his jump position, making him very punishable. This is still a thing with every other char, just the other notable ones such as ZSS and Sheik have an a-okay acceleration so you probably wouldn't notice as much - at least in ZSS's case it's a substantial but you can still jump further away than most players/characters can punish (i.e. not being lazy with ZSS means you stop being punishable, duh!). It wasn't like this in Brawl, so it took me a really long time to figure it out and suddenly fundamental knowledge started translating clearer to the game. You wouldn't notice this on most chars, such as Marth: okay acceleration, soso max air speed; i.e. a lot of the cast!
Dash in retreating jump is a pretty badass option, for an air time of 20 frames he's covering a distance basically only Sonic can cover by read (if you're not spacing your jump and they have a solid DA that'll work too). Obviously intelligent usage of the amount of space he can also jump forward is very potent too, just you wouldn't really care much about it as an opponent holding shield, until more effective and tricky movement comes into effect.
Now with that in mind, the concept of a 'hyper' mikeneko (similar to the way Leo plays Marth today) reactive footsies due to rocket powered boots is attainable. Something something reaction speed trap between aerial or landing option (grab), dash side-b [oos] being the goat, etc etc (It's a bit more complicated but than that but filler information)
Roy's tipper options are not poor nor are they to be avoided (why do people think this?). They are not really fantastic either (except back air, holy crap is that move awesome; also you need side-b to be tippered on the first hit for it to combo properly past early percent), but they're still on a pretty sizable sword that with good (but difficult) spacing is not easy for most chars to break through or punish. Essentially anyone at Mewtwo's level or worse oos ranged options* (considering that includes immediate oos fair/nair and dtilt/DA) have to opt for zoning him out, leading to pressure, leading to fun times... leading to being maybe an alright character?
*He has issues with things that swing at space farther than he can reach because then you just hit him ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(and then shield/grab gets a lot better for you as Roy tries to play around that, spare me Mr Ding Dong, spare me)
Oh but his dash speed is still excellent... dash in power shield is still a feasible option (just like it is still important for Marth) because grabs and jabs are very fabulous.
Dash dancing stuff let's you vary the distance your dash to shield will be too. The primary issue with these long dash to shields isn't inherently the frame data (especially when they have so many strong OoD options) but the amount of distance moved forward.
'Tech Skill': letting the control stick go to neutral before pressing jump~
Have any further design quandary relating to Roy? Just refer to rocket physics. Or consider why we don't have consumer jet-packs yet.
Dash in retreating jump is a pretty badass option, for an air time of 20 frames he's covering a distance basically only Sonic can cover by read (if you're not spacing your jump and they have a solid DA that'll work too). Obviously intelligent usage of the amount of space he can also jump forward is very potent too, just you wouldn't really care much about it as an opponent holding shield, until more effective and tricky movement comes into effect.
Now with that in mind, the concept of a 'hyper' mikeneko (similar to the way Leo plays Marth today) reactive footsies due to rocket powered boots is attainable. Something something reaction speed trap between aerial or landing option (grab), dash side-b [oos] being the goat, etc etc (It's a bit more complicated but than that but filler information)
Roy's tipper options are not poor nor are they to be avoided (why do people think this?). They are not really fantastic either (except back air, holy crap is that move awesome; also you need side-b to be tippered on the first hit for it to combo properly past early percent), but they're still on a pretty sizable sword that with good (but difficult) spacing is not easy for most chars to break through or punish. Essentially anyone at Mewtwo's level or worse oos ranged options* (considering that includes immediate oos fair/nair and dtilt/DA) have to opt for zoning him out, leading to pressure, leading to fun times... leading to being maybe an alright character?
*He has issues with things that swing at space farther than he can reach because then you just hit him ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
(and then shield/grab gets a lot better for you as Roy tries to play around that, spare me Mr Ding Dong
, spare me)Oh but his dash speed is still excellent... dash in power shield is still a feasible option (just like it is still important for Marth) because grabs and jabs are very fabulous.
Dash dancing stuff let's you vary the distance your dash to shield will be too. The primary issue with these long dash to shields isn't inherently the frame data (especially when they have so many strong OoD options) but the amount of distance moved forward.
'Tech Skill': letting the control stick go to neutral before pressing jump~
Have any further design quandary relating to Roy? Just refer to rocket physics. Or consider why we don't have consumer jet-packs yet.
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bc1910
Smash Lord
Greninja didn't have anything to break Diddy's throw combos.
SSHC also was and is wildly inconsistent vs Sheik's Uair.
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Great and now I feel dumb because I don't know any of these people except Hakii whose name I've at least heard before.
Cloud really doesn't have that much of an advantage against Mewtwo though.I dunno, I'd say
Though I suspect that because of Mewtwo's polarizing design he has some random mid- and low-tier "odd-counter" that give him a hard time. Roy's jab -> Up B seems to be at its most effective against Mewtwo and Mewtwo also has a weird losing record to Duck Hunt in Japan.
FullMoon
i'm just joking with you
As far as Gren vs Lucas goes, I believe Taiheita has also put the MU in Greninja's advantage, but I believe it was only a slight one.
Bowserboy3
Asking mum how to talk to a lady
At risk of being hunted down by an angry mob...
Art of Marth was released yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITPEEtexc0Q
Not sure whether it was posted here, but just in case, because it's quite an interesting watch (well of course it would be; I main Marth...).
Art of Marth was released yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITPEEtexc0Q
Not sure whether it was posted here, but just in case, because it's quite an interesting watch (well of course it would be; I main Marth...).
Myollnir
Smash Ace
Does anyone know where we can find stuff like walk/dash acceleration, dash to shield, skid etc... ?
I think there was a google doc but I can't get my hands on it.
I think there was a google doc but I can't get my hands on it.
SaltyKracka
Smash Lord
Kuroganehammer has a section on character attributes.
TDK
Smash Master
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9g6bFiVLBY
Not sure how many of you have seen this, but what happened here?
Not sure how many of you have seen this, but what happened here?
Doesn't that only show dash length, though? I'm finding completely different values for dash to shield and dash to neutral elsewhere. Most notably here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...NqVb8uJQL_g0KWgl4IOjXQ/htmlview?pref=2&pli=1#
TheGoodGuava
Smash Ace
Izaw probably makes the best Smash 4 guides. They're visually appealing and the audio is good so there's nothing distracting you from the wealth of information he gives you, and that information is good for both beginners and veterans of the character.
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Guido65
Smash Apprentice
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For mobility there's this document. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13bO7oaM4HLH0xgq3CmGiRTUF2Ftm_00A6u-g7ow220g/pubhtml
Bowserboy3
Asking mum how to talk to a lady
I'm not going to let this get drowned out without a fair chance; I too, would like to know what happened here.
As far as I know, true phantom hits only exist in Melee (no, the little sparks that appear when a move appears to touch an opponent in this game is not a phantom hit, it means your move was 1 frame away from hitting the opponent). I really don't get what happened here.
Nah
Smash Champion
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Dash to shield is the same thing as the initial dash length on Kuroganehammer. The 1 frame difference is probably that the docs sheet doesn't count the frame it takes to pull shield up, while on KH it does.
"Dash to neutral" is a different action, which I assume is something like you dash but don't hit shield, and that's how long it takes before hitting attack won't trigger a dash attack. Something like that, not 100% sure tho.
Agon New Era is streamed on www.twitch.tv/tadavidID
It's one of germanys first 2 stock tournaments.
It's one of germanys first 2 stock tournaments.
Jehtt
Smash Journeyman
The orange sparks are exactly what a phantom hit is. It happens when your hitbox is less than 0.1 units inside of the opponent's hurt box. It causes no damage, just a spark and a quiet sound. In Melee is was similar, except it was 0.01 units and it still did damage.
Officially, it is called a "glancing blow."
As for that clip, doesn't Cloud's limit Up B have 2 hits? Perhaps the first hit connected but the second one did not?
D
Deleted member
Guest
Not the Smash the Record thread but,
Xmasbeat Nairo 2-1 at said tournament.
He later ended up getting 33rd, not bad for 414 entrants.
Xmas
beat Nairo 2-1 at said tournament. He later ended up getting 33rd, not bad for 414 entrants.
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valakmtnsmash4
Smash Ace
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Except that he used Mewtwo to beat NairoNot the Smash the Record thread but,
Xmas
He later ended up getting 33rd, not bad for 414 entrants.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Oh, my b
D
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Super Smash Geek #2 (Montreal, Canada - 73 entrants)
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Kofu
Smash Master
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That was my initial thought but the two hits do 6 and 7% respectively. Mario took a total of 13%, so that can't be it.
First sorry for unintentionally causing that discussion. I would never have guesed how much of a mess Greninja's matchups are.
Marth can simply roll past the projectiles or use Counter to disable the most dangerous ones if you feel bold. I usually run Lucina instead of Marth, especially due to the way more consistent KO power of Dancing Blade and the up Smash, but what works for one should work for the other in this case.
Marth can simply roll past the projectiles or use Counter to disable the most dangerous ones if you feel bold. I usually run Lucina instead of Marth, especially due to the way more consistent KO power of Dancing Blade and the up Smash, but what works for one should work for the other in this case.
TDK
Smash Master
TLTC beats Aarvark 6-4 over 2 sets to win Hero to ZeRo and gives his plane ticket to Regi since he's already attending.
Good play incoming?
beats Aarvark 6-4 over 2 sets to win Hero to ZeRo and gives his plane ticket to Regi since he's already attending.Good
play incoming?
Krysco
Aeon Hero
That Art of Marth video got me thinking, in every Smash game, I could see myself using Marth but I never have while I have no problem using Roy. I think for me, it has to do with that whole 'bubble' idea Izaw mentioned. Marth constantly wants you at the edge of his 'bubble' unless he's going for a sourspot combo starter. For the most part, if the opponent is past tipper range then the Marth failed to keep his opponent out and is in danger. He's more open to his opponents attacks and less open to his own most threatening options. Meanwhile Roy gets to either be safer at tipper range or rewarded for a hit more at hilt range.
As for that weird Cloud/Mario thing, does the first hit of Limit Climhazzard have set or weight based knockback? Or perhaps Melee's ceiling glitch has returned.
As for that weird Cloud/Mario thing, does the first hit of Limit Climhazzard have set or weight based knockback? Or perhaps Melee's ceiling glitch has returned.
Wintermelon43
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