Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Deleted member]

When it comes to DLC, it kinda seems like Diddy is the only character that actually beats all of them.

too. Though there's M2 being considered even.. so yeah.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

too. Though there's M2 being considered even.. so yeah.

I hesitate to say that Sheik beats by really any signifigant margin due to the fact that Bayo's reward vs Sheik can be pretty nuts

 

[TheGoodGuava]

people are severely underestimating Sheiks reward, against a fastfaller like Bayo she can easily wrack up ~50% off of one string and shes also one of the few characters that can consistently press advantage against her without much risk.
I really don't see how how Bayonetta stands a chance against optimal Sheik play

 

[Das Koopa]

Tokaigi 2017 confirmed. Feels like a Switch port is completely inevitable at this point.

October retrospective post coming sooooon

 

[Sleek Media]

SDI up still saves every non-Fox character from the WT>Uair followup outside of some really silly rage interactions so I don't know where the whole "X character dies off the top so early" comments are coming from. This isn't ZSS or MK where getting hit wrong at the right percent means a ladder death. You can almost always stop it from happening.

If you play Fox, however, there is no hope. Personally dropping Fox outside of the DL/BF counterpick because the DLC league vs Fox is such an irritating uphill battle.
Ryu Utilt, Bayo WT/Fair, Cloud Nair, etc.

That's all well and good, but finishing uAir or no, she's still confirming 50% off of ABK, dTilt, etc. The cast can't keep up with that kind of output.

 

[TDK]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkuG92lZV18

This set shows all the problems with (Dark) Pit at once.

Zenyou was getting outplayed in the neutral a lot but one or two neutral wins for Zenyou brought it back because of Mario's ridiculous advantage state vs (Dark) Pit's lacklustre one. Essentially, Kiraflax could win neutral 5 or 6 times and then Zenyou won it once or twice and it was an even game again. If I have to go to college, get a degree in pitology, and then still outplay my opponent 100% of the time is that really worth it?

Next up is killing. In game 1, Zenyou lived to 182, living multiple Fthrows and a Side-B while Dark Pit had Rage, and in the second game, falling out of an up smash that would have ended him. Kiraflax just couldn't kill Zenyou at all, which cost him because he was just giving Mario rage.

How is this character "good" if you need to outplay your opponent 100% of the time to get anything done? Am I missing something?

 

[Megamang]

Watching Panda Bair do decent vs Bushi, why isnt villager considered decent vs Bayo? He is a neutral monster, has good disjoints, can edgeguard her/outright kill her for recovering too low, has great boxing for a zoner... and is tiny/floaty, so he can actually escape. And once he escapes, uair kills bayo while fair/bair/nair punishes airdodge semi consistently.

He is ok gimp food, but not nearly as bad as most zoners.


Megaman does fine in neutral, and being heavy and small is dandy af, but... you cant get out of disadvantage if bayo makes a few good guesses.

Also, Villager zones more "burstlike" than Megaman. What i mean is you have decent mixups, am i gonna fair or land and nair/jab, or just lloyd to set up a trap, etc etc... whereas megaman is much easier to witch time reactively. Trivially easy actually, I pulled a decent few games vs Tyroy but by the end of the set he was reliably Witch Timing and it was euugh.

 

[SaltyKracka]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkuG92lZV18

This set shows all the problems with (Dark) Pit at once.

Zenyou was getting outplayed in the neutral a lot but one or two neutral wins for Zenyou brought it back because of Mario's ridiculous advantage state vs (Dark) Pit's lacklustre one. Essentially, Kiraflax could win neutral 5 or 6 times and then Zenyou won it once or twice and it was an even game again. If I have to go to college, get a degree in pitology, and then still outplay my opponent 100% of the time is that really worth it?

Next up is killing. In game 1, Zenyou lived to 182, living multiple Fthrows and a Side-B while Dark Pit had Rage, and in the second game, falling out of an up smash that would have ended him. Kiraflax just couldn't kill Zenyou at all, which cost him because he was just giving Mario rage.

How is this character "good" if you need to outplay your opponent 100% of the time to get anything done? Am I missing something?

AFAIK the consensus on the Pittos is that they're mediocre-good as opposed to a distinct portion of the cast that is mediocre-bad to just straight up trash.

As well, you might need to outplay the opponent to win consistently with Pits, especially against top tiers, but Pit has the potential to outplay. He has a vast collection of pretty good tools and no glaring weaknesses to exploit. There is not, IIRC, any matchup he just straight up loses at character select.

P.S. Sm4sh Mario is just stupid good. He has some dumb dumb dumb dumb tools.

 

[Deleted member]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkuG92lZV18

This set shows all the problems with (Dark) Pit at once.

Zenyou was getting outplayed in the neutral a lot but one or two neutral wins for Zenyou brought it back because of Mario's ridiculous advantage state vs (Dark) Pit's lacklustre one. Essentially, Kiraflax could win neutral 5 or 6 times and then Zenyou won it once or twice and it was an even game again. If I have to go to college, get a degree in pitology, and then still outplay my opponent 100% of the time is that really worth it?

Next up is killing. In game 1, Zenyou lived to 182, living multiple Fthrows and a Side-B while Dark Pit had Rage, and in the second game, falling out of an up smash that would have ended him. Kiraflax just couldn't kill Zenyou at all, which cost him because he was just giving Mario rage.

How is this character "good" if you need to outplay your opponent 100% of the time to get anything done? Am I missing something?

Kiraflax is not even anywhere close to the level of somebody like Earth, and considering he's fighting the best solo Mario in America this is a fairly skewed analysis. Some of your points are decent but using this set to prove why "Pit isn't that good guysss" is pretty counterintuitive.

 

[Nobie]

This is from July so it's old data at this point, but according to this tweet Anti believed that a Pit of sufficient skill (i.e. Earth) is trouble for Mario.

https://twitter.com/iron_luca/status/756625954533888001

 

[L9999]

AFAIK the consensus on the Pittos is that they're mediocre-good as opposed to a distinct portion of the cast that is mediocre-bad to just straight up trash.

As well, you might need to outplay the opponent to win consistently with Pits, especially against top tiers, but Pit has the potential to outplay. He has a vast collection of pretty good tools and no glaring weaknesses to exploit. There is not, IIRC, any matchup he just straight up loses at character select.

P.S. Sm4sh Mario is just stupid good. He has some dumb dumb dumb dumb tools.

Pit's recovery can be abused to get chip damage and stage spikes, he is a big target with no combo breakers so combos work a lot on him, and because his kill moves are limited he has trouble when he is behind. Could people stop saying Pit has no losing MUs? Fox eats him alive.

 

[TDK]

Kiraflax is not even anywhere close to the level of somebody like Earth, and considering he's fighting the best solo Mario in America this is a fairly skewed analysis. Some of your points are decent but using this set to prove why "Pit isn't that good guysss" is pretty counterintuitive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSzgL946Dqo

You see the same problems even with Earth. ZeRo was patient and got more out of any opening than Earth did out of multiple, while avoiding all of Pit's poor killing options and just didn't let him do anything. It's less noticeable with Earth, but the underlying problems of Pit are still there.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Pit's recovery can be abused to get chip damage and stage spikes, he is a big target with no combo breakers so combos work a lot on him, and because his kill moves are limited he has trouble when he is behind. Could people stop saying Pit has no losing MUs? Fox eats him alive.

Wow, it's almost like that's exactly what I didn't say.

And honestly, I don't see those as especially glaring weaknesses. The Pits can recover from practically anywhere to anywhere. Sure, it's possible to rack up damage if you can intercept their recoveries, but the Pits have options and what are generally pretty good recoveries. Most characters have a limited amount of kill moves and kill options, and obviously have trouble when they are behind. That's why it's called being behind.

Also, there is no category of size among Smash characters that would cause me to label them big.

 

[Vyrnx]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSzgL946Dqo

You see the same problems even with Earth. ZeRo was patient and got more out of any opening than Earth did out of multiple, while avoiding all of Pit's poor killing options and just didn't let him do anything. It's less noticeable with Earth, but the underlying problems of Pit are still there.

Pulling up two sets as the proof to end all proof doesn't really do any justice when the opposing evidence is a particular Pit player doing well in many, many tournaments against many excellent players.

And at the end of the day, most people agree that Pit is just a pretty alright character that some players can use effectively. These two sets against the best player in the world using a top five character and another highly ranked player in the U.S. using a top tier character aren't really sets where Pit is necessarily going to be the favorite. Although Earth could arguably be a favorite against Zenyou, but we don't know how that would play out.

Using specific sets as evidence for a character's tier placement doesn't work. It can potentially illustrate some problems with a character, but it's not going to show a character's viability accurately at all, especially compared to looking at a character's actual track record with their top players, which in Earth's case is pretty positive and is what backs Pit up as being an alright character.

Edit: Also, those fthrows and side b's that aren't killing are from the opposite side of the stage and the side b was an aerial side b. This is just intentionally misleading.

 

[TDK]

Earth is incredible. Pit isn't.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Earth is incredible. Pit isn't.

Nobody is saying Pit is incredible.

Now stop punching the goddamn strawman before I have to set it on fire.

 

[Vyrnx]

Edit: it's not even worth the energy

 

[my_T]

Earth is incredible. Pit isn't.

If Nintendo does another ballot for DLC i'm gonna vote for FOW and Earth as DLC characters. I'll drop Ness and Dark Pit immediately lol

 

[Krysco]

Wasn't there a discussion earlier about how you can't have a player be amazing and yet the character through which they show that they're amazing not be so? Is Falcon truly a good character or is it just Fatality and Tearbear being really good? How about Fox and Larry? Pikachu and Esam? Cloud and Tweek/M2K? Etc.

I can agree that Earth is an amazing player and that Pit isn't some super amazing character but the characters that are truly bad are the ones that can't pull out results at all and even that isn't fair. A lot of people believe Zard is better than bottom 5 but because his player base is so small, there's very little to show off what the character has to offer. Meanwhile, you have a million and a half Bayos and Sonics showing off what those characters can do. Part of the reason I'm still trying to get good with Roy and not just drop him entirely for a top tier like Mewtwo is because I want to see if I can become a recognizable name for Roy. A person that can be mentioned when people ask for high level Roy play or Roy results. And the only way to do that is to play...which sadly I'm stuck with wifi atm but I'm working on being able to go to locals. Might not mean jack. Roy could very well just be an awful, piece of trash character or I may never become anything more than a mid or low level player but I won't know unless I try.

Yay for sounding preachy as af at the end there.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Wasn't there a discussion earlier about how you can't have a player be amazing and yet the character through which they show that they're amazing not be so? Is Falcon truly a good character or is it just Fatality and Tearbear being really good? How about Fox and Larry? Pikachu and Esam? Cloud and Tweek/M2K? Etc.

I can agree that Earth is an amazing player and that Pit isn't some super amazing character but the characters that are truly bad are the ones that can't pull out results at all and even that isn't fair. A lot of people believe Zard is better than bottom 5 but because his player base is so small, there's very little to show off what the character has to offer. Meanwhile, you have a million and a half Bayos and Sonics showing off what those characters can do. Part of the reason I'm still trying to get good with Roy and not just drop him entirely for a top tier like Mewtwo is because I want to see if I can become a recognizable name for Roy. A person that can be mentioned when people ask for high level Roy play or Roy results. And the only way to do that is to play...which sadly I'm stuck with wifi atm but I'm working on being able to go to locals. Might not mean jack. Roy could very well just be an awful, piece of trash character or I may never become anything more than a mid or low level player but I won't know unless I try.

Yay for sounding preachy as af at the end there.

And there lies a massive problem, unless the character has a large enough playerbase/high level players playing them we can't get a proper accurate assessment of their strengths and weaknesses because there's not enough people playing them differently. That in turn makes people believe the character is low-tier and not as many people want to play them.

On the other hand characters with huge player bases show off the characters more accurately, show off their strengths and weaknesses more effectively, and in turn give people a better idea where the character falls on the tier chart. This in turn depending on where it ends up makes more players want to play that character and the playerbase for that character grows.

TL;DR characters used more often and who get better results in tourneys typically have larger playerbases while the characters that aren't used as often do not, it feeds into itself.

Go figure I come up with something proper while in the middle of a cold.

 

[Krysco]

And there lies a massive problem, unless the character has a large enough playerbase/high level players playing them we can't get a proper accurate assessment of their strengths and weaknesses because there's not enough people playing them differently. That in turn makes people believe the character is low-tier and not as many people want to play them.

On the other hand characters with huge player bases show off the characters more accurately, show off their strengths and weaknesses more effectively, and in turn give people a better idea where the character falls on the tier chart. This in turn depending on where it ends up makes more players want to play that character and the playerbase for that character grows.

TL;DR characters used more often and who get better results in tourneys typically have larger playerbases while the characters that aren't used as often do not, it feeds into itself.

It makes sense too. If you want to play this game competitively, you want to have a fun time and likely want to win. Top and high tiers have fewer bad mus and generally have less frustrating stuff to put up with since they have the tools to handle most of what comes at them. The problem with this is that whatever is first found to be good, stays good either for good or for a long time while everything else is ignored. Looking at Brawl as an example, D3 started off as a top 3 character until counterplay was found and he dropped off to high mid tier, meanwhile Olimar started off as mid and climbed up to high tier and Sonic started off as low and climbed up to mid. Plus there's my favourite bit of trivia from that game where on the first tier list, Zelda was above ZSS. The character that ended up being 2nd worst was first deemed better than a character that won an APEX.

This game is a bit harder to show examples for since patches and dlc drastically changed the meta. Ness was first thought of as a top tier but now people view him as low as mid while Mega Man, Marth, MK, Mewtwo and Greninja were all viewed as mid tier at best (moreso low tier for Mewtwo and Marth, even after their buffs) and are all now high to top tiers.

And as you said, a large player base shows more accurately where a character goes, whether that's high, low or in the middle. Look at all of the buffs Ike has gotten and how many notable players there are for him and yet he's still a low mid tier. Part of that being because every notable Ike main hardly travels and the Japanese viewing him so negatively but still.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

The japanese view Ike negatively? Why?

 

[Krysco]

The japanese view Ike negatively? Why?

Not the most knowledged on the matter but I believe it has to do with little to no player base along with different playstyles. Similar thing with Duck Hunt where America views the character more poorly than Japan.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm but Ike's style is similar to a lot of the heavyweights the reason people didn't like Duck Hunt was because he was too different.

 

[Sleek Media]

This game is a bit harder to show examples for since patches and dlc drastically changed the meta. Ness was first thought of as a top tier but now people view him as low as mid while Mega Man, Marth, MK, Mewtwo and Greninja were all viewed as mid tier at best (moreso low tier for Mewtwo and Marth, even after their buffs) and are all now high to top tiers.

Whoa, slow down. When was Greninja ever considered low tier? He was top tier in the very early days until his smashes got nerfed, then people did exactly what we've seen with Diddy and Bayo - cry and ***** for a few months about how the character is "ruined", and then finally figure out that "oh wait I just lost a broken tool, everything else is just as good as before". Even during that time nobody thought he was bad. The most pessimistic reputable people put him at mid.

Also early on, Mega Man was considered very low tier. Everyone tried him out, but he plays so different from traditional characters and requires such precise spacing that everyone got wrecked as him and wrote him off. I actually think people are overrating him right now because of Kame. He's good, but...putting him in the same group as Mario, Fox, Pika, etc? I don't think so. What little tournament results he has are very flimsy - the biggest performance is easily Kame at EVO, but to get there he needed Shiek players to SD three times, and barely eeked out the wins with some serious footstool jank after being dominated in neutral. In terms of fundamental power, the character is right around the middle of the cast, and terrible MUs against common top tiers like Shiek and Mario should limit his placement a lot more than it is right now. Yeah he's obviously better than Zard & co, but you have to be crazy to think he can hang with the likes of Bayo & Cloud. Even the Links give him a really hard time.

 

[ReRaze]

Earth is incredible. Pit isn't.

FTFY
Earth is incredible. Pit is decent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkuG92lZV18
This set shows all the problems with (Dark) Pit at once.
Zenyou was getting outplayed in the neutral a lot but one or two neutral wins for Zenyou brought it back because of Mario's ridiculous advantage state vs (Dark) Pit's lacklustre one. Essentially, Kiraflax could win neutral 5 or 6 times and then Zenyou won it once or twice and it was an even game again. If I have to go to college, get a degree in pitology, and then still outplay my opponent 100% of the time is that really worth it?

This set doesn't show anything except that Zenyou is a better player. The last time Earth played Zenyou he bopped him 3-0.

Zenyou wasn't exactly getting outplayed in the neutral, it's Pit just has an easier time in the neutral than Mario. In order to gain an advantage Mario has to get in, but how does Mario do so against a patient Pit? You saw how much trouble Zenyou had getting in, and the chip damage from failing racks up over time. On the flipside all Pit has to do to get into an advantage state is get Mario above him and he does so easily with a frame 7 disjointed Dash attack that only works better due to Mario's lacklustre grounded options.

Mario may have a ridiculous advantage state compared to Pit but the thing is Pit has an easier time preventing Mario from getting into his advantage state whilst at the same time pressing for his own advantage state. The fact that Zenyou managed to get in and do Mario things means that it was actually Kiraflax who got outplayed in general not the other way around as you suggest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkuG92lZV18

Next up is killing. In game 1, Zenyou lived to 182, living multiple Fthrows and a Side-B while Dark Pit had Rage, and in the second game, falling out of an up smash that would have ended him. Kiraflax just couldn't kill Zenyou at all, which cost him because he was just giving Mario rage.

None of those Fthrows were near the ledge and that was an aerial side b, it's alot weaker, neither are meant to kill in those situations. This coupled with battlefields large blast zones doesn't help. This normally is not an issue at all. Kiraflax also missed alot of potential punishes that would kill, infact in that second game he could have F-Smashed or U-Smashed to seal the stock but chose to side b instead getting himself killed. On a side note that Usmash in game 2 that Zenyou fell out of was only at ~80%. I wish it was capable of ending him.
Mario can't exactly kill Pit easily either, the only safe option he has is bair which kills at absurd percents. The main way both get kills is through punishes, or while in an advantage state, and who would be winning neutral more often to be in advantage?

How is this character "good" if you need to outplay your opponent 100% of the time to get anything done? Am I missing something?

Sure you need to outplay your opponent in neutral to get anything done, but the thing is it's not difficult for him, he has all the tools to do so, There aren't any noticeable flaws in his gameplay. He's decent at it all. This only works well in tandem with someone like Earth whom likes to and excels at playing the neutral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSzgL946Dqo

You see the same problems even with Earth. ZeRo was patient and got more out of any opening than Earth did out of multiple, while avoiding all of Pit's poor killing options and just didn't let him do anything. It's less noticeable with Earth, but the underlying problems of Pit are still there.

As someone who mains Pit and watches a ton of Earth I can confidently say that he wasn't at the peak of his game that match, there were a ton of flubs and mistakes he wouldn't normally make. From the messed up DI, poor option coverage, unsafe landings.
And perhaps the most noticeable thing was that he missed a crap ton of autocancels. That's like rule no.1 for Pit, for a Pit of his calibre to mess up so many, that's a clear sign that something was off, EVO16 conditions were terrible and Earth had literally just played his nailbiting set with Kamemushi and lost by a hair. Now he has to play the No.1 player in the world in losers? Keep in mind that playing Pit is actually very mentally draining too due to constantly needing to choose your options wisely. Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if he was on edge.
Earth did ALOT better vs ZeRo at genesis 3, where ZeRo was arguably playing at some of his best whilst using pre-patch sheik.

edit: I don't mean to imply that Pit is some sleeper top tier, or that the MU is bad for mario, just that he's more than capable of holding his own and Earth doing well with him only proves that. He's not simply just outplaying everyone he's outplaying everyone using Pits tools.

 

[Krysco]

Whoa, slow down. When was Greninja ever considered low tier? He was top tier in the very early days until his smashes got nerfed, then people did exactly what we've seen with Diddy and Bayo - cry and ***** for a few months about how the character is "ruined", and then finally figure out that "oh wait I just lost a broken tool, everything else is just as good as before". Even during that time nobody thought he was bad. The most pessimistic reputable people put him at mid.

Also early on, Mega Man was considered very low tier. Everyone tried him out, but he plays so different from traditional characters and requires such precise spacing that everyone got wrecked as him and wrote him off. I actually think people are overrating him right now because of Kame. He's good, but...putting him in the same group as Mario, Fox, Pika, etc? I don't think so. What little tournament results he has are very flimsy - the biggest performance is easily Kame at EVO, but to get there he needed Shiek players to SD three times, and barely eeked out the wins with some serious footstool jank after being dominated in neutral. In terms of fundamental power, the character is right around the middle of the cast, and terrible MUs against common top tiers like Shiek and Mario should limit his placement a lot more than it is right now. Yeah he's obviously better than Zard & co, but you have to be crazy to think he can hang with the likes of Bayo & Cloud. Even the Links give him a really hard time.

I didn't say Greninja was low tier, although my 'at best' remark after saying mid tier may have implied that. Greninja and most of those characters were seen as mid tier for quite a while with namely Marth and Mewtwo being deemed low tier. I honestly tend to forget that there was a time that Greninja was deemed top tier. I didn't see any matches of him before his nerfs and have no idea how overpowered his usmash, up b and Shadow Sneak stuff were. I do remember the 'better nerf Greninja' phase though and how he was considered mid tier for a long time with him and Mega Man being deemed to never break into high tier or higher because prepatch Sheik destroyed them.

As for Mega Man, I don't really have an opinion formed of the character beyond 'he's good'. Him and Marth seem to be the 2 high tiers most often predicted to go higher over time but it doesn't seem to be an incredibly popular opinion.

 

[ReRaze]

I didn't see any matches of him before his nerfs and have no idea how overpowered his usmash, up b and Shadow Sneak stuff were

Just to name a few major ones
-Usmash used to be lagless, bigger and stronger. You could even combo out of it.
-Up B was alot stronger than FLUDD, strong enough to push a bowser bomb from center stage offstage. It could kill off the top easily.
-Shadow Sneak had alot of advanced techs, such as platform sliding, running shadow sneak and you could cancel aerial landing lag e.g from dair with a shadow sneak.
-Uair Spike used to kill at virtually 0% offstage. https://youtu.be/yK9bAKdN_Kc

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Hrmm but Ike's style is similar to a lot of the heavyweights the reason people didn't like Duck Hunt was because he was too different.

Ike is as underhyped as Ryu is overhyped
A character with a matchup spread as good as his shouldn't be in low tier

 

[Bowserboy3]

I really don't get this whole "Earth is good but Pit isn't" talk.

Everything Earth is doing with Pit is a showcase of what the character can do at top level play. He's not got access to cheats or gameshark codes etc; he's playing the character optimally. Sure, there are not really any other notable players replicating this, but Earth has all of the same options as any other Pit player. Essentially, anything Earth can do, we could all do. Pit's options are quite good, and they really shouldn't be underplayed.

Why don't we see fantastic Ganondorf players? Why don't we see fantastic Falco players? Why don't we see fantastic Dedede players? That's right, because the characters are actually quite bad/flawed. This is why they have non-existent top level success

He might have only one real notable player, but Pit's top level success through Earth shows us he isn't actually a bad character. Earth is the only player to be playing a pretty optimised Pit.

I think more Pit players just need to step up to the plate and play ball.

 

[Rizen]

I really don't get this whole "Earth is good but Pit isn't" talk.

Everything Earth is doing with Pit is a showcase of what the character can do at top level play. He's not got access to cheats or gameshark codes etc; he's playing the character optimally. Sure, there are not really any other notable players replicating this, but Earth has all of the same options as any other Pit player. Essentially, anything Earth can do, we could all do. Pit's options are quite good, and they really shouldn't be underplayed.

Why don't we see fantastic Ganondorf players? Why don't we see fantastic Falco players? Why don't we see fantastic Dedede players? That's right, because the characters are actually quite bad/flawed. This is why they have non-existent top level success

He might have only one real notable player, but Pit's top level success through Earth shows us he isn't actually a bad character. Earth is the only player to truly have optimised his gameplay.

I think more Pit players just need to step up to the plate and play ball.

Look up Raykalm, GanontheBeast and Verm for Ganon. Big D for DDD. Cryo(?) for Falco I think. Those characters don't have great results but some impressive things. To be fair Pits' results are lacking too, not as much though.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Look up Raykalm, GanontheBeast and Verm for Ganon. Big D for DDD. Cryo(?) for Falco I think. Those characters don't have great results but some impressive things. To be fair Pits' results are lacking too, not as much though.

With respect, I did specifically hammer the phrase "top level" into my post. Since when have Ganon, Falco and Dedede placed something as good as 9th at Evo? That's what I am more on about.

 

[Rizen]

With respect, I did specifically hammer the phrase "top level" into my post. Since when have Ganon, Falco and Dedede placed something as good as 9th at Evo? That's what I am more on about.

Big D got 49th in Genisis 3 but he also used CF :/
http://www.ssbwiki.com/GENESIS_3

I'm not aware of Ganon or Falco placing in any super big tournaments.
Obviously those characters aren't as good as the Pits.

 

[HoSmash4]

Ike is actually fairly tame

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ike is tame in the sense that hes not layer upon layer of bull****. Instead he has a good well balanced kit without many flaws in it.
Low percent combo throws and high percent stock cap? Check.
Safe pokes and counterpokes? Check.
Average or better cqc? Check.
Average or better mobility? Check.
Good autocancels? Check.
Balanced damage:frame data ratio? Check.
Average recovery? Maybe slightly below average but who cares, check.
Projectile? no but more than makes up for it with ridiculous range on normals.
Trouble killing? Not in the slightest
Can he abuse rage? Hell yeah
Ike is mostly a fundamentals based character, a lot like Pit actually. It also explains their similar representation. Not bad enough for the low tier heroes, not broken enough for the tierwhores, and nobody really big on character loyalty is playing them outside of like 3 people each

 

[Myollnir]

Balanced damage:frame data ratio? Check.
I mean, Ganondorf deals a lot of damage with a poor frame data and that doesn't make it any good, I understand Ike has a disjoint but aside from Jab, D-Tilt and B-air, his moves are really slow. You can't just tweak the criteria so it matches your point of view if you want to convince someone other than yourself.

Average recovery? Maybe slightly below average but who cares, check.
"Maybe slightly below average" Really? It is definitely below average, and EVERYONE cares about having an exploitable recovery in a game where are rampant (I probably didn't chose the 5 best edgeguarding games but that's just an example).

Trouble killing? Not in the slightest
Can he abuse rage? Hell yeah
(Both are connected) Yeah, sure, until you get gimped and you lose all rage...

I understand that you like and I acknowledge that he is not a trash character (and most of your arguments are valid) ; my point is that if you want to do a short analysis of a character, you can't just showcase his strengths and hide his weaknesses when they clearly can be abused (he has more than what we talked about, but I'm no specialist so I'll leave that to someone more qualified).

 

[bc1910]

Whoa, slow down. When was Greninja ever considered low tier? He was top tier in the very early days until his smashes got nerfed, then people did exactly what we've seen with Diddy and Bayo - cry and ***** for a few months about how the character is "ruined", and then finally figure out that "oh wait I just lost a broken tool, everything else is just as good as before". Even during that time nobody thought he was bad. The most pessimistic reputable people put him at mid.

There were plenty of people who placed him at low-mid or even low tier. And why shouldn't they? He had no results and questionable theory. Even as recently as 6 months ago, I saw a tier list from FOW placing him in bottom 20.

People forget that Greninja didn't have a bunch of overpowered tools like Diddy, Sheik, Rosa and other top tiers who have been nerfed multiple times yet are still top 10. He had one broken tool (Hydro Pump) and two overpowered ones (shurikens and Usmash; neither were broken, shurikens borderline-ish but they were no worse than Shadow Ball) and took heavy hits to all 3, with a smattering of nerfs to other things that didn't need to be touched. Greninja has only been considered good after an upswing in results brought on largely by two significant rebuff patches, the changes to shieldstun and huge nerfs to his biggest gatekeeper (Sheik).

People thought he was bad, and for all intents and purposes he was.

 

[Deleted member]

Big D got 49th in Genisis 3 but he also used CF :/
http://www.ssbwiki.com/GENESIS_3

I'm not aware of Ganon or Falco placing in any super big tournaments.
Obviously those characters aren't as good as the Pits.

Big D mostly used Falcon at G3. There's also the fact that this was 1.1.3, a meta that's no longer relevant.

Earth's results with Pit alone are better than what most bottom/low tiers could ever dream of achieving.

 

[ReRaze]

Everything Earth is doing with Pit is a showcase of what the character can do at top level play.....he's playing the character optimally.

Earth actually hasn't even optimised Pit, in a sense, he plays Pit at a fairly basic level unlike Kamemushi, Taiheta, Some, etc whom abuse the more damaging/difficult combos and setups their character has.

His Pit is so simple and yet he still manages to kick butt~

I wonder how much better he would do if he started to get more technical, e.g. https://gfycat.com/OrneryGiddyKite

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pit does absolutely not get "eaten alive" by Fox. If Fox does have the advantage against Pit it's only a slight one.