Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[|RK|]

Re: Playing to Win

I think a lot of time, it's associated with a choice of character, but I disagree. Many people just fit with a particular character, and winning with that character is important to them. Maybe they don't mind outplaying their opponent entirely in order to win.

And there's a difference between that and being dumb. If you decide to rush in when you know your opponent gets more off of it, that's what I see as not playing to win. Blaming your opponent's choice of character, refusing to employ certain strategies - that's not playing to win. Playing to win, in my perspective, is using the rules, your character's advantages, and your opponent's disadvantages in order to achieve success.

I don't think character choice factors into it - maybe that's just me being biased. On the other hand, I'm a low level player - there's little risk for me. I know that at this level, I can simply outplay my opponent in bad MUs, and that's fun. But that doesn't mean I'm going to be dumb about how I do that. That doesn't mean I'm not trying to win.

 

[Yikarur]

I'm convinced that Small Brawler is the best character in the game.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Re: Playing to Win

I think a lot of time, it's associated with a choice of character, but I disagree. Many people just fit with a particular character, and winning with that character is important to them. Maybe they don't mind outplaying their opponent entirely in order to win.

And there's a difference between that and being dumb. If you decide to rush in when you know your opponent gets more off of it, that's what I see as not playing to win. Blaming your opponent's choice of character, refusing to employ certain strategies - that's not playing to win. Playing to win, in my perspective, is using the rules, your character's advantages, and your opponent's disadvantages in order to achieve success.

I don't think character choice factors into it - maybe that's just me being biased. On the other hand, I'm a low level player - there's little risk for me. I know that at this level, I can simply outplay my opponent in bad MUs, and that's fun. But that doesn't mean I'm going to be dumb about how I do that. That doesn't mean I'm not trying to win.

I like to add that you need to have a healthy mentality when playing to win. I've seen a good amount of people get serious momentum at the beginning and even halfway through a match, only for them to make a mistake and it comes crashing down on them. Whenever I ask these people about what happened, they often tell me that they "made a mistake, and tried to get even with the opponent." By even, I mean make a comeback to where the game is even. Characters with bad disadvantageous states ( and are good examples) often fall victim to this, whereas characters like , , , and don't need to worry as much in their disadvantageous states. It can be a serious uphill battle to get the game back to even when you have a character with a bad disadvantage state, and getting the game back to even is seen as an accomplishment, at least to me it does.

This is probably just my idealistic mindset coming back, but I think we need to emphasize not only playing to win, but playing to learn as well. I get that people would much rather win than learn, but think about how the top players got to where they are. I've seen a lot of people carry an attitude about their character or people who use top tier characters. Try playing against a Kirby player and tell me the amount of times they treat their character like garbage or dismiss the player who beat them only because they used a top tier. There needs to be a more encouraging atmosphere going around, instead of the typical "if you lose, you suck," mentality I see far too often.

 

[FeelMeUp]

What, if any, MUs does bayo lose?

My patient Mega does alright, and its probably closeish to even... but engineering specific mega combos, abusing his bad recovery, and Witch Timing everything will eventually make it tough if bayos started to lose to Megamen.


Rosa looked promising when Dabuz rekt Salem, but then Captain Zach destroyed that idea thoroughly. No offense to him, he is very skilled, but Dabuz is a much better player and he still forced a switch.

I honestly think Shiek takes too long to kill and doesnt have either high damage or kill throws happening past the range of throw -> bouncing fish. Bayo just has too much time to randomly win.

So i was thinking m2, Shadow Ball punishes for a ton of damage or kills cross screen, fast run speed and general mobility, and disjoints and strong neutral are all problems for her... yet m2's big size and light weight surely ruin his chances. Damn...


Olimar looked OK, but Zach really didnt abuse Witch Time or Olimar's horrid disadvantage nearly enough.

Is her toolkit so highly tuned that she has a win-the-MU trump card for everyone?

Sheik has the 50/50 on Bayo and is one of the only characters that can edgeguard her because of needles and bouncing fish. It's one of the matchups she has the easiest time killing, raw gimps aside.

 

[Luco]

He actually pointed out that with mobility + Feint Jump he could possibly be the best time-out character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNeSSgA4bv8

Fair enough. Can defo see him having a top 3 runaway game, keep in mind though his projectiles kinda suck so vs chars with strong projectile games he'd probably still be forced to approach (would love to see him vs Megaman).

We don't know for sure what the counterplay around this is or could be, and he didn't particularly dominate customs-on meta (usually stuck around high tier at that time) so I'd still rather this than leaving him banned, at least for a trial period.

 

[Illuminose]

Sheik has the 50/50 on Bayo and is one of the only characters that can edgeguard her because of needles and bouncing fish. This is actually one of the matchups she has the easiest time killing in outside of raw gimps.

I don't agree.

The issue with all of Sheik's kill setups is that you have to get close to pull them off, which leaves you at risk to Witch Twist into death. Many times, the risk of going toward Bayo to pull off a kill setup versus the reward is heavily not in your favor. Up air does not kill early and missing can potentially kill you. Edgeguarding a good Bayo who knows how to maneuver offstage, even with needles, is virtually impossible. On paper these kill tactics might work, but in practice you can't try to force anything against Bayo. Trying to fight Bayo head-on as Sheik is never a good idea -- the matchup is camp, camp, camp.

Speaking of other potential losing matchups some have brought up for Bayonetta...

Mega Man is abused too much offstage and in disadvantageous positions in general. He's also the type of character that has to put out hitboxes as part of his game plan, so he can be vulnerable to Witch Times. Mega Man has to play very methodical and safe in the matchup and then he can stand a decent chance; both sides seem to generally agree that it's a slight advantage for Bayo but there's a chance it's even I suppose. Salem has a consistent record against Kameme to back this up, though the Big House set was very close.

Toon Link is a matchup that everyone from both sides seems to agree is even. Toon Link can get abused offstage and his range/oos issues can get exploited by Bayo, but overall Toon Link is good at playing a consistent defensive neutral against Bayo and has somewhat more effective SDI against her combos due to his small size. There's conflicting examples of the matchup playing out so I won't go over those, but 'even' just seems like the right designation.

Bayo beats Rosa, end of story. At Big House, Salem kept trying to force the issue and didn't play safe or defensive against Dabuz like you're supposed to in the matchup (looked like a lack of exp though he was playing kinda dumb against Nairo too that day). Zack did what you are supposed to do and dominated Dabuz's Rosa. Rosa is extremely susceptible to Bayo combos and edgeguards due to her large size on top of having issues with keeping Luma alive. The saving grace of Rosa in this matchup is that Bayo is forced to respect her in neutral and Rosa's range to punish certain options from Bayo, but these factors aren't enough to push the matchup to even.

Olimar is an interesting character here because Shuton has a good record against Bayo (he has multiple sets with 9B and Hiro, only losing to Hiro and then subsequently getting a 6-0 in grands) and now we have Dabuz beating Zack with Olimar. What's also interesting is that both Dabuz and Shuton say that Olimar has a slight disadvantage in the matchup. I feel like Zack's loss was more due to bad Witch Time habits than anything, and Shuton is probably just better than the Bayos he has beaten. The huge thing is that Olimar can kinda keep up damage output-wise and has the safe defensive neutral, but he gets dominated in offstage positions really hard. A slight disadvantage makes the most sense if you look at the theory here -- I'm inclined to agree with the top Bayos and Olimars here.

I'm convinced that Mewtwo loses to Bayonetta. Sure he can camp with Shadow Balls, but Bayonetta can contend enough in the matchup that the brutal punishes Bayo gets push it over the edge. We saw what Salem did to Abadango. Even moreso than other matchups, it's hard to maintain a lead or consider any percentage a lead when Mewtwo is just so susceptible to Bayonetta combos.

Lucas is another matchup where neutral may be in his favor but he doesn't win because Bayo destroys him so hard in offstage positions. Bayonetta also has the benefit of being really hard for Lucas to grab, which means that although Lucas can keep her out somewhat decently, it's inevitable that Bayonetta will find a way in and then she erases whatever lead Lucas has. The top player consensus is even or slightly in Bayonetta's favor, but more likely even.

 

[verbatim]

ESAM thinks Any Size xxxx brawler is the best character in the game.

Have not seen the video, I was under the impression that he was talking about small 1122 brawler. mid-sized brawler is not top 10, let alone top 1.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Looking at the requirements to be a character that can beat Bayonetta (good true combo kill options, not getting destroyed off stage, not having to play up close, small target, good OoS options, strong projectiles, good grab game an asset)... I can't think of anyone with a complete package. Closest is Toon Link but well, OoS and offstage issues and Lucas at a probably distant second.

Forget about finding a character with an advantage against Bayonetta, its struggle to find many characters that are truly even with her and not 45-55 at least.

 

[verbatim]

I'm convinced that Small Brawler is the best character in the game.

Back when we ran any size legal our resident pr mii brawler got triple eliminated at a round robin pools regional by a zss that knew the %'s helicopter kick killed at and intentionally got hit damaged to get above that %. Died around 160%-180% on average across 3 sets, mainly to throws.

The reason people don't like Mii Brawler isn't because he's the best character, it's because he's one of the most polarizing characters. He has one of the best kill options in the game, but it's literally his only kill option and he's probably going to lose if he can't land it. Tiny Brawler can negate some of that w/ timeout shenanigans but regular Brawler can't.

Requiring people to use the default mii's in order to cut down on time but letting people use any moves on them that are legal when the custom option is turned off is a compromise that avoids having to deal w/ smaller while not blanket banning 3 low to mid tier characters.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Whats the general consensus on the Bayo vs Sonic MU?. I assumed that Sonic would have a slight advantage. .but then again his main approach options are all suspectible to Witch Time and Witch Twist... and Sonic seems to not enjoy Bayo's long and lingerng hitboxes on her airiels.

I guess if Sonic can get the lead and then play super, super campy and defensively he has the advantage. But if Bayo gains the lead and Sonic is forced to approach .well thats exactly what Bayo wants isn't it?

 

[Mega-Spider]

The more I hear about Bayonetta, the more I'm convinced her nerfs didn't mean jack in the long run.

 

[Yonder]

I think it's asinine that some people are actually saying Small Brawl is the best in the game when it literally has no results.

Yeah yeah I know, "custom brawlers are banned!" But that doesn't mean someone can't pick one up and do friendlies at the very least with some well known players or at least experiment with them on one "custom miis" on tourney. If Small Brawl comes out on top, maybe there's something to vouch for. No way will I call a character the best on game based on 95% theory.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The more I hear about Bayonetta, the more I'm convinced her nerfs didn't mean jack in the long run.

The Nerfs got meant to her almost parralel what the nerfs meant to him in the long run

They both got what was undisputably broken about them taken away and got some of their other BS toned down and suddenly everyone though they were history.

Until the dedicated mains adapted and worked around the nerfs, expanding their meta as a result and showed they still had so much more ridiculously powerful tools and triats that can overwhelm the majority of the roster cementing them as among the best even after those supposed major nerfs

 

[|RK|]

Looking at the requirements to be a character that can beat Bayonetta (good true combo kill options, not getting destroyed off stage, not having to play up close, small target, good OoS options, strong projectiles, good grab game an asset)... I can't think of anyone with a complete package. Closest is Toon Link but well, OoS and offstage issues and Lucas at a probably distant second.

Forget about finding a character with an advantage against Bayonetta, its struggle to find many characters that are truly even with her and not 45-55 at least.

Mewtwo is everything except for a small target. In fact, I think the small target thing is almost a red herring. It helps for SURE, but I feel like a character like Mewtwo won't be as afraid of dying early since he can take her out pretty early himself.

 

[Megamang]

but big target + light gives her absolutely ludicrous kills. Its not a definite requirement to win, but watching m2 die to a f4 OoS option makes you think its probably important.

 

[|RK|]

but big target + light gives her absolutely ludicrous kills. Its not a definite requirement to win, but watching m2 die to a f4 OoS option makes you think its probably important.

I suppose that's the case. Tbh, I think the biggest thing is probably projectiles and good damage off of grabs. Because those allow you to play solely thinking about her neutral tools. That gives her fewer opportunities to enter advantage. That really makes me think both Mewtwo and Sheik could beat her. Regardless of hurtbox sizes.

 

[Emblem Lord]

All the nerfs did to Bayo was make her go from almost Brawl MK level of stupidity, to a level where other top tiers can touch her.

She is still stupid. Just not as much.

 

[Nobie]

If you're curious about Mewtwo vs. Bayo, just watch Xanadu and see Wadi and Pink Fresh eat each other alive every week.

 

[Kofu]

I think it's asinine that some people are actually saying Small Brawl is the best in the game when it literally has no results.

Yeah yeah I know, "custom brawlers are banned!" But that doesn't mean someone can't pick one up and do friendlies at the very least with some well known players or at least experiment with them on one "custom miis" on tourney. If Small Brawl comes out on top, maybe there's something to vouch for. No way will I call a character the best on game based on 95% theory.

This was very early on in the game, but one of the top Japanese players (Komorikiri IIRC) was dominating tournaments with some Brawler build. It was so bad that the TO changed the rules to only allow one custom move per Mii.

I could be remembering this wrong, though.

 

[Bowserboy3]

To be honest, none of us can even state ESAM is wrong about Small Mii Brawler (and in turn, he can't really say he's right either) because we will never get truly understand the small Mii Brawler's actual options, potential, MU's - ever, because we are stuck in a metagame that is absolutely reluctant to change.

Sad, but it's true.

Another thing I want to say is that players nowadays often just don't want to even consider something being different to the general consensus. "Mii Brawler better than Sheik? Tch, no way".

We're all sheep, following the same opinion, and we don't like the idea of change. It's not even a joke either, it's all psychological; the human mind doesn't like change.

I honestly can't decide whether it was a troll/joke video, or whether it was a real/truthful video, but either way, I damn respect ESAM for at least taking a different view on things (even if it's a view we'll never be able to truly put the the test... sighs).

 

[Rizen]

I play the miis and my thoughts are:
Swordfighter is just bad. 1111 guest swordfighter could be the worst in the game.
Gunner has stuff going for them. They have a decent zoning game and neutral but are very undertuned. Still bottom tier.
Brawler is a bit better with good mobility and strong moves. Decent rushdown and weaving. Another way to look at them is like a 'discount Ryu', with better mobility but worse range, safety and reward. He gets in and does well, mediocre projectile yet it has uses, but no great way too approach or force things. 1111 guest is probably low tier. Custom Brawler, small is easily a top tier, idk about best in the game though.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

People may be resistant to change but it is inevitable. For all the evidence of the human mind wanting things to stay the same there is just as much evidence of us not being satisfied by what we currently have. We'll always try to 'improve' what we see as imperfect.

 

[Rizen]

People may be resistant to change but it is inevitable. For all the evidence of the human mind wanting things to stay the same there is just as much evidence of us not being satisfied by what we currently have. We'll always try to 'improve' what we see as imperfect.

^Tell that to the Brawl community when there was talk about being banned.

 

[|RK|]

Different for the sake of different isn't interesting, IMO. Mii Brawler is irrelevant.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

I didn't even get into the community until this latest game so elaborate on that.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I hear people discussing if actullay has any bad MU's when I thought that was a bad MU for her even if it'd around 45-55 past matches show she may have troubles vs and thus by proxy


I would think would give her trouble too then again the reward Bayo gets against her is pretty crazy. I mean being tall, light and a fast faller? That like the trifecta of getting Bayo combo janked right there

 

[Nu~]

Question:

What's keeping Corrin's disadvantage state from being downright awful?


Terrible airspeed + aerial acceleration, fast falling speed, no combo breaking moves (Nair and counter are decent-ish. Nair is not fast enough and counter is easily baited and punished hard), nothing threating underneath him/her (frame 12 stall and fall dair?)


Isn't he/she juggle bait?

 

[verbatim]

To be honest, none of us can even state ESAM is wrong on this occasion (about Small Mii Brawler), because we will never get truly understand the small Mii Brawler's actual options, potential, MU's - ever, because we are stuck in a metagame that is absolutely reluctant to change.

Sad, but it's true.

Another thing I want to say is that players nowadays often just don't want to even consider something being different to the general consensus. "Mii Brawler better than Sheik? Tch, no way".

We're all sheep, following the same opinion, and we don't like the idea of change. It's not even a joke either, it's all psychological; the human mind doesn't like change.

I honestly can't decide whether it was a troll/joke video, or whether it was a real/truthful video, but either way, I damn respect ESAM for at least taking a different view on things (even if it's a view we'll never be able to truly put the the test... sighs).

Except that whenever Small Mii Brawler was legal he didn't win tournaments or place even close to the characters that did eventually end up getting nerfed.



If non of us can state that he is wrong, why can he state that he is right?

 

[Megamang]

That stall and fall dair leads to really painful combos.

Same with fair and nair, if she gets some space then she can turn it around on you.

Her fast falling can mean a mixup between jumping over you to take stage control, and quickly falling down and pinning you in the face.

Basically if your combos arent frame tight, disjoints can hit you back! Someone like Marth juggling Mario, doesnt care if mario gets a nair out if he spaces properly, just the way he moves and when he airdodges effects the juggle.


Her disadvantage is still bad tho

 

[Bartolon]

I wish I had the Purple~H vs. S1 set recorded. (Double 2 Stock) but optimal Cloud might look like the first game of this set:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xWztymzNxA

Don't think we saw the same set, when I sd first stock on like 40% and having a deficit both games + me not being experienced in the matchup. Matchup is not as bad as I initially thought. Lots of factors that are getting ignored by you lol. Also lets not forget I came off a set where I pretty much got robbed of a win which was still pretty fresh in my mind. Oh well hopefully I get a chance at a different tournament to show Cloud matchup is not as bad as you're making it out to be of one sample.

 

[The-Technique]

So...Zenyou got 3-0'd by a Duck Hunt. Lost games 1-2 as Mario and lost game 3 as Cloud. Interesting...

 

[TDK]

So...Zenyou got 3-0'd by a Duck Hunt. Lost games 1-2 as Mario and lost game 3 as Cloud. Interesting...

ImHip had to beat Rich Brown to get there, too. I really wish he'd swtich around Olimar and Duck Hunt, his Duck Hunt is amazing.

 

[NairWizard]

I was going to post a long, detailed analysis of how Bayonetta probably doesn't lose to Lucas or Toon Link (they're 50:50 at worst, honestly, her reward when they're offstage is just so high because of Witch Time and Witch Twist), but then I realized that there's a nonzero chance for Donald Trump to win the election in my country tonight, and fell into a deep, uncontrollable depression.

Be back tomorrow or in a couple of days.

Unless salvation occurs.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Lets not bring politics here, please.
I'd like this to be the one place where I don't have to see the constant whining.

 

[Luco]

Lucas is another matchup where neutral may be in his favor but he doesn't win because Bayo destroys him so hard in offstage positions. Bayonetta also has the benefit of being really hard for Lucas to grab, which means that although Lucas can keep her out somewhat decently, it's inevitable that Bayonetta will find a way in and then she erases whatever lead Lucas has. The top player consensus is even or slightly in Bayonetta's favor, but more likely even.

( Also NairWizard )

Does she...? AD tether is crazy powerful and a Lucas (and TL) who mixes up his timings (with DJ and tether) never has to get hit by drop down Nair / WT. The only situation where Lucas should be getting hard punished is using PKT2 but that shouldn't really happen that often.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

So...Zenyou got 3-0'd by a Duck Hunt. Lost games 1-2 as Mario and lost game 3 as Cloud. Interesting...

Mario doesn't do well against characters with amazing zoning tools, good edgeguarding tools, and mobility better than his. DH has all of those traits so its perfectly understandable tbh
Cloud is a mystery to me though, lack of MU knowledge?

Lets not bring politics here, please.
I'd like this to be the one place where I don't have to see the constant whining.

Can I whine about your profile picture being the first thing that comes up when I search Sheik hentai?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Mario doesn't do well against characters with amazing zoning tools, good edgeguarding tools, and mobility better than his. DH has all of those traits so its perfectly understandable tbh
Cloud is a mystery to me though, lack of MU knowledge?

Can I whine about your profile picture being the first thing that comes up when I search Sheik hentai?

i've never searched that before but......let me verify....
Yeah so Mario's pretty solid. Cool character. His mains should focus on reading people more because of the wonky reward you get off guessing.

 

[Megamang]

Hmm, character famously has trouble killing? Lets run it back to the stage with smaller side blastzones.

Repeatedly.


I dont get everyone's infatuation with that stage. Im sure zen had his reasons, but it seems suspect. Ah well.

 

[BSP]

I didn't watch the set so idk if imhip did it, but can as an F1 combo breaker at the cost of some self damage is pretty significant tool in the Mario : DH MU.

 

[verbatim]

Does the can spawn on F1?