Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Man Li Gi]

See, that's a generalization of an MU which does lead to misinformation. Most MUs aren't so derivative and one sided that one tool alone is enough. It's usually a compilation of tools that make a character good or bad.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Shadow ball is not limit. It doesn't affect his mobility.

Specials that can reverse your direction and be canceled do, indeed, increase your mobility.
It's why you can say both banana and peanut popgun increase Diddy's mobility. Increase in mobility doesn't directly equal increase in speed.

Besides a 13% throw, kill throws, and up smash, Mewtwo's fastest out of shield options are a total of 11 frames for forward air and 12 for neutral air. Forward air and neutral air are the only ones with any chance of doing 20-30%, but why would you get on the character for the enemy misspacing an attack that badly? Mewtwo has bottom-tier traction. Hitting his shield safely isn't that hard. Also, frame 11 for an out of shield option is pretty mediocre. Down tilt isn't an out of shield option, though it would only be 1 frame behind neutral air. However, you won't get 20-30% off of it if you don't hit the base of his tail. Consider that with his bad traction.

"If your opponent isn't perfectly spacing you can't get it so how are you doing 20-30?"
11 frame OoS options are certainly not mediocre. I'd say that's slightly above average considering the sort of combo tool it is. You even see Mr. R and VoiD (using the character with 3 safe aerials) getting punished with Nair OoS and eating massive damage for it. I don't know what kind of theoretical world you're looking at, but the risk reward for M2 nairing out of shield is definitely not in the aggressor's favour. Nobody will perfectly space every attack on shield, and most characters don't even have good aerials to reliably use as an approach in the first place.

What hitboxes are that large? Down tilt? I guess it's pretty big, but only the base combos beyond a simple forward air, so it's not that big of a deal. Up tilt is pretty big, I suppose. It's totes unsafe, though. It can at least combo into an aerial if you get the right hitbox. I guess it's a decent anti-air. Back air is his biggest aerial, but it's frame 13 and extends his hurtbox before it even comes out. It also has the inverse tipper while being unsafe on shield up close. You could autocancel it to make a retreating base hit back air safe, but, like.....why? Up air reaches about as high as Captain Dashgrab's, so if you consider that very big, no comment. The hitboxes don't even exactly match the animation, though that isn't a big deal. Forward air is not a big hitbox. Neutral air loses every trade, so who cares?

Dash attack, dtilt, all smash attacks, uair, and dair all have large hitboxes. Fair is also respectable.
Are you comparing his moves to Cloud's, or something? A lot of characters would kill to have hitboxes with this size and power.

Confusion is his biggest disjoint in the front. It does 9% and leads to nothing.

Mewtwo has 3 options out of a run that are any different from the rest of the cast: confusion, shadow ball, and jump-canceled up smash. I mention up smash because he slides far. It's in no way safe. Confusion is worthwhile only for retreating, and it's just 9%. Shadow ball is good. Wavebounce/b-reverse it, and you have a totes safe on shield 25% killing hitbox-beating shield-slamming projectile that moves you forward or backwards.

Your options out of run are good because of the moves your character has. They don't have to be "super unique."
Shadow Ball, JC Usmash and Fair alone are amazing options. His options out of walk are also ridiculous.

Mewtwo really only solidly beats shield at kill percents, when up and back throw are relevant. Blocking a fully charged shadow ball won't break your shield. However, it comes out on frame 23, so it's not TOO hard to dodge. It's frame 6 from the charging animation, but that leaves Mewtwo immobile. I wouldn't call taking like 15% from a pummel and a throw saying "nah" to shield. It's decent damage.

15% from a throw that doesn't worry about DI(until much higher %s) is amazing considering the percent he kills at.
At low % if you get grabbed you eat big damage and lose stage control vs a neutral monster.
At high % if you get grabbed you'll die.
Mewtwo also has a command grab with mixup potential. How is that not beating shield, lol.
It feels like you pointed out a bunch of things I said, talked about completely different qualities, and still decided to say my few lines of information was "incorrect."

 

[TDK]

See, that's a generalization of an MU which does lead to misinformation. Most MUs aren't so derivative and one sided that one tool alone is enough. It's usually a compilation of tools that make a character good or bad.

While I was being simple, Rosa-Ganon is one of Rosa's best MUs. The second you got just one hit he got scared.

 

[|RK|]

People just want to play their own game regardless of what character their opponent is.

Adaptation based on your opponent's character and play style isn't really a thing in smash 4 yet.

People really do. They do dumb things without taking into account what character their opponent is playing. You really can't do that, no matter what character you're playing.

More importantly, I agree with Man Li Gi - oversimplification does lead to misinformation. And usually that hurts the person playing a top tier the most. They're told "all you need is x tool to win against y character" - but what main of y character worth their salt doesn't practice ways around x tool? Then all of a sudden you're a Rosa getting four-stocked by a Ganondorf.

 

[Y2Kay]

"Just spam [insert move here], you'll win!" is just a meme and a joke I use with my friends.

Sadly, that is an actual strategy for match ups for some players

 

[NairWizard]

Even more sadly, perhaps, that is an actual strategy for match ups that works.

Too many players refuse to abuse the one good option they have that helps to win a matchup. Mixups are good, but if you spend too much time worrying about mixups and not enough time worrying about beating your opponent's options, you're going to lose.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Even more sadly, perhaps, that is an actual strategy for match ups that works.

Too many players refuse to abuse the one good option they have that helps to win a matchup. Mixups are good, but if you spend too much time worrying about mixups and not enough time worrying about beating your opponent's options, you're going to lose.

Yeah, this is what I'm saying.
Mega Man vs DDD. Why are you trying to mix in aerials and metal blade combos so much? Just pellet 90% of the time and DDD can't do anything.
and I don't mean this just in the neutral aspect either. Sheik can just bouncing fish away when cornered by Ness with almost no risk the majority of the time.
ZSS can get off ledge with Flip Jump and fatties usually can't do anything.
Bayo can Witch Twist every time her shield is tapped and get off scot free 80% of the time.

 

[Nobie]

The mental fatigue that comes from playing Sheik is a different sort than the kind you get from playing Mewtwo.

Imagine playing Sheik as having to worry about being buried in sand, a few grains at a time. At first it's just a bit here and there, so it's easy to avoid or disregard. But then the sand keeps pouring and pouring, and before you know it, you're covered head to toe. It's easy to make the right decision, but to do it over and over and over and over? It catches up to you.

Now, imagine playing Mewtwo as having to worry about being buried by giant boulders. Only one or two get tossed every so often, but they're huge and they hurt like hell. While you can avoid them well enough, every time you get hit it's like having the wind knocked out of you in one go.

If my analogy didn't make sense: Sheik has strong tools that allow Sheik to win exchanges again and again, but this requires the Sheik to keep winning repeatedly, and eventually, over the course of multiple matches, this can wear a player down because Sheik doesn't have very many super strong KO options that don't also require proper reads and setups. Mewtwo is full of power, able to combo and kill fairly easily and possessing all sorts of dangerous weapons, but each individual hit sends Mewtwo reeling. Sheik players have to endure a gradual degradation of their abilities over long periods of time, Mewtwo players have to worry about singular mistakes leading them to lose.

As for Mewtwo vs. Shield:

1) Please do not underestimate Confusion. It isn't "just 9%," it's a reliable ranged grab that beats dash into shield and attempts to space with preemptive shielding. It makes up for Mewtwo's relatively small grab range by providing an alternative. Nothing is guaranteed out of a confusion but that doesn't mean follow-ups don't exist. It just requires you to have observed and conditioned your opponent. Do they like to double jump out? That means they've burned their second jump and you can give chase. Do they like to air dodge? Shadow Ball. And so on.

2) It's easy to say that Shadow Ball should be easily avoided because it starts on Frame 23, but that isn't how it ends up being used in practice. Yes, if you know exactly when and where the Shadow Ball is coming from you can avoid it, but you'll often find that good Mewtwos will throw Shadow Balls that take advantage of their opponents' temporary auto-pilots. Easy example: If an opponent instinctively tech rolls forwards or backwards, you can time Shadow Ball accordingly.

Also, what makes Shadow Ball truly scary is how little the endlag is for Mewtwo. This is what separates the move from Aura Sphere and Charge Shot, because neither Lucario nor Samus can actually follow up on their projectiles. One character who can is Robin, and you can kind of think of Mewtwo's Shadow Ball as an Arc Thunder with the power of a Charge Shot. It's just a super versatile tool that also happens to eat shields.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

"Just spam [insert move here], you'll win!" is just a meme and a joke I use with my friends.

Sadly, that is an actual strategy for match ups for some players

but does Jigglypuff really have a way to get around a fair spamming Marth? Nah, she just gets to stand there until the Marth messes up

 

[Vyrnx]

Mewtwo's shadow ball is the best chargeable projectile in the neutral other than Sheik's. It's low endlag means that baby shadow balls are extremely effective and the move just meshes really well with the way Mewtwo moves.

Shadow ball can be used either as baby shadow balls, or charging the move to force the opponent to approach via the threat of getting a full charge (and also mixing up movement as a byproduct). Abadango intentionally doesn't charge it all the way until he has to so he can do this.

Full charge shadow ball isn't easy to land since it's slow to come out and slow to travel. You can't get a tech chase or go for a crazy read without the opponent reacting... but M2 releasing a full charge is win-win either way. If it does hit, it's 25 damage and possibly a kill, if they shield then it's a big chunk of shield damage, if they reflect, he can reflect back, and if he misses, then he just regains uncharged shadow ball shenanigans that are so amazing in the neutral.

There's also the fact that people play completely differently when you just hold a fully charged projectile, especially a strong one like Mewtwo's, and it definitely impacts the neutral.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

but does Jigglypuff really have a way to get around a fair spamming Marth? Nah, she just gets to stand there until the Marth messes up

Yes she does have a way around it. Abuse her aerial mobility and multiple jumps to stay out of Marth's range and punish his end lag. Marth v. Puff is by no means a good match up for Puff but it's Marth, not Cloud.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Alright ummmm.... Is there a matchup thats literally just "spam x to win"? All I can think of is Cloud vs Puff and Pac vs Mac

 

[Megamang]

MM vs DDD.

Man Li Gi People are afraid to abuse stuff here. Half the time I beat people they mention they "dont have to heart to camp me"... which, sure, if you somehow lack the ability to play lame in a competition thats fine, but dont tell me about it.

(People are proud of not playing optimally. I dont get it, but its definitely true. You are also right that it isnt as simple as peoplr say, and all but the worst of the worst characters can force anyone to adapt with intelligent play.)

 

[Luco]

Lucas vs Luigi is veeeryy verrry close to 'spam PK Fire / retreating Fair / Dtilt / pivot Ftilt / pivot grab and win'

But PS-ing and rolling's kinda powerful so things occasionally happen.

 

[Rizen]

I think if anybody will be dropping out of the top 10 it will be Mario. He's just not as oppressive as all the other characters that are widely perceived as top ten.

I've been thinking about this lately. Mario is still 7th on the top 16 weighted list:
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/
but I wonder if DLC characters Cloud, Bayo and Mewtwo have hurt his viability. IDK what his MUs vs them are. Can a Mario player shed some light on this?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Man Li Gi People are afraid to abuse stuff here. People are proud of not playing optimally

This is the simple truth and is what separates competitors like Hungrybox, Armada, Mew2King and ZeRo from the rest.
As ZeRo said in that recent video, somewhere along the lines Smashers decided they don't want to win doing what they need to. They want to win their way and have that same strategy work against every opponent regardless of character.
This is why you usually won't see certain things that can give characters heavy advantages in matchups become popularized until one guy starts doing it A LOT and the rest see they need to catch up.
Those guys you know at locals who refuse to switch off their Kirby, DDD, Wario and Little Mac while throwing insults at the players who pick up Cloud or Sonic to win? These people aren't competitive.
If you don't have the heart to camp someone for 8 minutes straight, ledgestall until the clock runs out, run around forcing mistakes, or counterpick the Jigglypuff in pools to MK/Cloud for a better advantage you aren't truly playing to win.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[...] I wonder if DLC characters Cloud, Bayo and Mewtwo have hurt his viability.

One would be inclined to think that the introduction of three new characters, all potentionally better than him, would hurt Mario's viability. But I don't think they actually do. If anything I'd argue that the DLC characters helped to solidify Mario's position as a top 10 character because they've hurt other potential top 10 candidates much more than Mario. Case in point would be Villager who at one point was considered potentially top 10 himself, if not a sleeper top tier. The arrival of Bayonetta and Cloud - both solidly losing matchups for Villager - put a quick end to all thoughts into that direction.

 

[Megamang]

What, if any, MUs does bayo lose?

My patient Mega does alright, and its probably closeish to even... but engineering specific mega combos, abusing his bad recovery, and Witch Timing everything will eventually make it tough if bayos started to lose to Megamen.


Rosa looked promising when Dabuz rekt Salem, but then Captain Zach destroyed that idea thoroughly. No offense to him, he is very skilled, but Dabuz is a much better player and he still forced a switch.

I honestly think Shiek takes too long to kill and doesnt have either high damage or kill throws happening past the range of throw -> bouncing fish. Bayo just has too much time to randomly win.

So i was thinking m2, Shadow Ball punishes for a ton of damage or kills cross screen, fast run speed and general mobility, and disjoints and strong neutral are all problems for her... yet m2's big size and light weight surely ruin his chances. Damn...


Olimar looked OK, but Zach really didnt abuse Witch Time or Olimar's horrid disadvantage nearly enough.

Is her toolkit so highly tuned that she has a win-the-MU trump card for everyone?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Her kit, much like the other top tiers, is extremely flexible and effective. She steps on low tiers and does fine against other top tiers.

I'm honestly beggining to think the top 6 or 7 characters all go roughly even with each other and its mostly just player vs player matchups. The M2 vs Bayo matchup is actually super even, ill try and do a post on the matchup tomorrow when I have a bit more time

 

[NairWizard]

Bayonetta's worst matchups are defined almost entirely by the opposing character's ability to get out of her strings. Her advantage and disadvantage states are too strong for most characters to have a claim on a winning matchup regardless of neutral, and her neutral isn't bad to begin with--far from it in fact given her range, lingering hitboxes, and sheer power on her options; bonus points for the bullet arts which if optimized could place her neutral among the game's best neutrals but is strictly unneeded at this time due to her access to more rewarding playstyles and options.

So who wins against Bayo? The characters with the best chances are small, floaty characters who also have solid neutral games. Olimar is a decent bet for a "hard" (but not necessarily losing) matchup, but due to his somewhat poor disadvantage state, I think he falls short.

My choice for Bayo's worst matchup is actually Toon Link. The character just has super safe pressure tools against Bayo (minus some Witch Time shenanigans), is hard to perform combos on, and packs both great speed and disjoints to deal with a camping Bayonetta, not to mention the ability to camp her out himself should he get the lead.

 

[Mega-Spider]

This is the simple truth and is what separates competitors like Hungrybox, Armada, Mew2King and ZeRo from the rest.
As ZeRo said in that recent video, somewhere along the lines Smashers decided they don't want to win doing what they need to. They want to win their way and have that same strategy work against every opponent regardless of character.
This is why you usually won't see certain things that can give characters heavy advantages in matchups become popularized until one guy starts doing it A LOT and the rest see they need to catch up.
Those guys you know at locals who refuse to switch off their Kirby, DDD, Wario and Little Mac while throwing insults at the players who pick up Cloud or Sonic to win? These people aren't competitive.
If you don't have the heart to camp someone for 8 minutes straight, ledgestall until the clock runs out, run around forcing mistakes, or counterpick the Jigglypuff in pools to MK/Cloud for a better advantage you aren't truly playing to win.

If I could shed some possible insight into that, I think some players want to win with the character they love, rather than the character they deem "brain-dead" or "easy." As a Kirby player, as much as I'd love to play all the match ups as him, he really needs someone to help him out, so if my opponent goes Luigi for example, I have to switch to Mega Man, since Luigi v Kirby is tragic. Count the amount of people who think lower of you if you main a top tier (especially Cloud). I may hate fighting against Mario for example, but he's a highly desirable character because of his amazing kit and reward. He gets so much for doing so little. I don't blame people for using characters like Mario, Cloud, Sonic, or Bayonetta, since their options are amazing for nearly every match up in the game. It's just that there are people that get sick of seeing these characters and want to see new characters played at top level. I mean, I'm sure some of us had a thought of "I'd rather see x than y," at least once.

 

[Luco]

So who wins against Bayo? The characters with the best chances are small, floaty characters who also have solid neutral games. Olimar is a decent bet for a "hard" (but not necessarily losing) matchup, but due to his somewhat poor disadvantage state, I think he falls short.

My choice for Bayo's worst matchup is actually Toon Link. The character just has super safe pressure tools against Bayo (minus some Witch Time shenanigans), is hard to perform combos on, and packs both great speed and disjoints to deal with a camping Bayonetta, not to mention the ability to camp her out himself should he get the lead.

I'm surprised with this logic you didn't say Lucas tbh, and what Lucas lacks in the mobility TL has he gets in having a strong grappling playstyle. Other than that he ticks all the other boxes you've listed.

I've been a proponent for a while that an optimal Lucas should have a veeery slight edge over Bayo and is one of his defining strengths in a meta centered around her.

Something a lot of people don't mention when it comes to these two characters (and other Zair characters) is that Zair breaks ADs. Whilst it doesn't reduce landing lag, if you break out of a combo with AD and are about to land Zair can force the opponent to shield or in the best cases actually hits them which is a massive boon. Just having that extra option can improve these character's landing games immensely.

I still love your reasoning as always. An added benefit to TL in this MU is I think bombs can cut Bayo's combos short if TL is holding one...? Someone might want to confirm that first, but if it's true it would be funny that TL / Link have always been able to escape the clutches of ridiculous combo-ers in smash with this little trait of theirs.

 

[Krysco]

In regards to the 'choosing to play the way they want rather than the optimal way' thing, another possibility is playing to have fun. Like, sure, the most optimal way to play Sheik in some mus may be to sit there throwing needles for a good while, but if a player feels they can get away with rushing in and they find it more enjoyable, then they may go for it even though sitting back would be smarter. A bit silly of an idea but even when played competitively, it is still a game, something designed for fun. It seems to be that when you have to play lame no matter what to win that players take that route or pick up a secondary. Look at Ryu, he came out and people immediately saw kill confirms off fast moves and tried rushing him down just to get beaten. Then he was deemed what? 4th or 5th best? Now it's well established that you simply don't do that, fun be damned.

In regards to Bayo, I don't know who beats her but I kept Mewtwo around purely for dealing with the character. Mainly having a kill throw so my kill options aren't negated by Bat Within or Witch Time. And if the characters with the best chance against Bayo are small, floaty and have good neutrals, what about Pika? Can just imagine the disaster of trying to kill her though. That uthrow rar Thunder thing would have to be spot on since Bat Within gives her a frame 1 airdodge and edgeguarding her isn't exactly the easiest thing either. Might be able to afford camping with Tjolts and QA though until there's an opening for a kill move. Tink at least gets kill confirms off of bombs and has a kill throw. Not sure if Duck Hunt is deemed as floaty or how highly his neutral is considered.

 

[Deleted member]

I know that this sort of discussion may come off as a bit of a red flag but I legitimately believe that in a year or so will probably become the worst character in the game. That may sound a bit drastic, but should be above him at this point at least. Although, all of them are unviable regardless.

If you think about it realistically, almost everything the character has is working against him. He practically lacks a neutral or any way to approach/effectively force one from the other side. His mobility, frame data and disadvantage state all stand as some of the worst in the game, along with his lackluster reward off grab compared to other superheavies (only a combo throw that loses it's reliability past mid-percent, no kill throw. Fthrow does combo into Gordos so that is something).

Having such awful hitboxes can make spacing or even landing most of your moves hell unless you're using back air, while even having a meaty hitbox doesn't last very long. Having a projectile that can easily backfire on you in neutral if the opponent plays against it proper is so miserable as well. Even if he does have noteworthy advantages like being able to live so long due to his weight/fall speed and having a for the most part difficult to challenge recovery, it doesn't matter if you live so long if you can't reliably catch your opponent and kill them. A similar occurrence happened when Mr. R fought a Dedede at SF5, he'd use needles to control neutral and go ham on him to exploit D3's frame disadvantage, and Dedede couldn't do much. His ledge game, while good, also has counterplay to it. You'll only have to worry much about it if you're another fattie.

The character has gotten little way in results for a while now despite how dedicated his mains are, the only ones I could probably name are Whiteout, Andy or El_Bardo being the ones that have been able to net decent results with him this year and even then they're on isolated occasions rather than actually being consistent. Once people stop being so tilted at the matchup then the character will definitely drop further from where he is now.

 

[Mega-Spider]

I know that this sort of discussion may come off as a bit of a red flag but I legitimately believe that in a year or so will probably become the worst character in the game. That may sound a bit drastic, but should be above him at this point at least. Although, all of them are unviable regardless.

If you think about it realistically, almost everything the character has is working against him. He practically lacks a neutral or any way to approach/effectively force one from the other side. His mobility, frame data and disadvantage state all stand as some of the worst in the game, along with his lackluster reward off grab compared to other superheavies (only a combo throw that loses it's reliability past mid-percent, no kill throw. Fthrow does combo into Gordos so that is something).

Having such awful hitboxes can make spacing or even landing most of your moves hell unless you're using back air, while even having a meaty hitbox doesn't last very long. Having a projectile that can easily backfire on you in neutral if the opponent plays against it proper is so miserable as well. Even if he does have noteworthy advantages like being able to live so long due to his weight/fall speed and having a for the most part difficult to challenge recovery, it doesn't matter if you live so long if you can't reliably catch your opponent and kill them. A similar occurrence happened when Mr. R fought a Dedede at SF5, he'd use needles to control neutral and go ham on him to exploit D3's frame disadvantage, and Dedede couldn't do much. His ledge game, while good, also has counterplay to it. You'll only have to worry much about it if you're another fattie.

The character has gotten little way in results for a while now despite how dedicated his mains are, the only ones I could probably name are Whiteout, Andy or El_Bardo being the ones that have been able to net decent results with him this year and even then they're on isolated occasions rather than actually being consistent. Once people stop being so tilted at the matchup then the character will definitely drop further from where he is now.

I mean, Dedede can live through a lot of stuff... that's all I can really say that's good about him. The fact that Gordos are so easily exploitable against him is a major problem, since that means his only projectile is worthless against some characters ( especially). Dedede can kill, but most of his kill options are so unsafe, it'll set you back so badly if you whiff.
Even though is my favorite of the bottom tiers, he really is atrocious in this game.

 

[Luco]

One thing to mention about Gordos is that as a neutral tool they suck, but when DDD's in advantage they can really turn into an amazing pressuring tool. It's well known that DDD's ledge-guarding using Gordos is one of the most potent ledge-traps in the entire game, so whilst DDD definitely struggles to put up any kind of wall, in the event he does get his openings (it'll happen sooner or later) he can do some cutesy stuff.

 

[Game7a1]

When we discuss the worst characters, I think we need to include Mii Brawler 1111 and Swordfighter 1111 in the discussion, but it seems like people forget about their existence or something. The Official Tier List has an addendum for the 1111 Miis, so it makes sense that these characters should be brought up, and I don't think any character can be worse than those two (they have no results (aren't all Brawler results from XXXX rulesets?), abusable recoveries, and despite their buffs over the patches, feel lacking, but they do have their quirks like all characters).

 

[Mega-Spider]

When we discuss the worst characters, I think we need to include Mii Brawler 1111 and Swordfighter 1111 in the discussion, but it seems like people forget about their existence or something. The Official Tier List has an addendum for the 1111 Miis, so it makes sense that these characters should be brought up, and I don't think any character can be worse than those two (they have no results (aren't all Brawler results from XXXX rulesets?), abusable recoveries, and despite their buffs over the patches, feel lacking, but they do have their quirks like all characters).

Miis are often the most disposable characters in this game, since people tend to forget that they exist. They're like in a way: Subpar in base moveset, can get a lot out of custom moves.

 

[Luco]

Not that this is the custom miis thread, but I would like to see discussion on miis come back into the circle of competitive discussion. It's still a massive shame that there's consistently a "don't know" slot for miis in every tier list / MU chart, it sucks hardcore that we made a ruleset that literally killed any community this already disadvantaged set of characters (no For Glory for these guys) had, it sucks that there are still people out there who think the ruleset regarding them is in any way fair or reasonable, because equality does not equal equity guys.

A meta with Miis back in the picture would be so much nicer. Once again this speaks to people not realising that the meta we have now is the meta we created in the first place and that we could just change our rulesets to make a better metagame if we realised we had the power to do so and wanted to do so.

 

[chaos11011]

Not sure if Duck Hunt is deemed as floaty or how highly his neutral is considered.

Duck Hunt lies somewhere in the above average plane of neutral while dabbling in absolutely amazing. His kit is designed to restrict options and then captilize off of reactions. Tools like gunmen can force shields to be grabbed or jumps to be hit by an aerial. Cans can restrict rolls or approaches and force air dodges that can be punished. He is similar to Diddy in that kind of aspect. His frame trap game and his ledge trap game also allows him to excel in advantage. Duck Hunt can also afford to mess up once or twice due to the fact that frame 1 Can can allow him to break out of non guaranteed combos (true combos arent always guaranteed combos with f1 options).

However, Bayonetta's inherit design is Duck Hunt counterplay. Bullet Arts temporarily stop the Can and reverses its direction. Bayo combos are guaranteed so you can't break out of them. Bayo can Side B through our projectiles on reaction. She also doesn't mind our edgeguards. Our safest edgeguarding tool, the Can, gets swatted away by Witch Twist.

I consider her one of our 3 worst match ups, along with Cloud and Rob.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I think one thing that needs clarity is that optimal play is never as easy and static as it sounds. As much as we like to think, we can't see every situation as it comes. We're going to get caught off guard by something and those windows allow for expression of the players.

Some very interesting exchanges can happen in sight of this (needle camping as sheik, but getting predictable and having all the needles shielded, jumped over and out of threat range, tomahawks, whatever).

This better with other viable characters though, since they mostly likely have answers to whatever I do.

 

[Yikarur]

1111 doesn't have results because no one wants to play 1111 when any move set is perfectly reasonable.
I don't think any Mii (with all moves) is higher than mid tier with Brawler having potential to be a low high tier.

 

[Luco]

1111 doesn't have results because no one wants to play 1111 when any move set is perfectly reasonable.
I don't think any Mii (with all moves) is higher than mid tier with Brawler having potential to be a low high tier.

What about any size though? Or if we want to restrict that slightly, just the most viable size for each mii (small for gunner and Brawl and not sure about swordfighter but I assume tall?)

 

[verbatim]

I don't know of any region that allows different sized mii's in standard singles in 2016. Generally speaking Most tournaments restrict you to default weight and then some are xxxx and others are 1111.

 

[Luco]

I don't know of any region that allows different sized mii's in standard singles in 2016. Generally speaking Most tournaments restrict you to default weight and then some are xxxx and others are 1111.

Yeah I was just wondering about the perceived viability of xxxx any size because imo that's the best way to bring a community (and viability) back to miis.

 

[Routa]

Ah Mii talk... My favourite.

Call mii (höhöö good one Routa) a fool, but I would say that Gunner is more relevant than Brawler when the meta progress. Why do I think this way? Well...

Brawler is flawed character. He lacks solid way to kill, he has horrible neutral and his recovery is exploitable. He has 2 things which make him good tho. Thous are his weight + mobility and strong kill moves (Up-Bs). These things are far more valuable in doubles than in singles, which is why Brawler is a big threat in doubles. He is pretty much Mario who can kill combo easier and survives longer. Mario has more utility than Brawler tho which makes Mario more favourable choice as a character to use in singles. Brawler is pretty much mixture of Mario and Fox, but diluted (not much tho). Main reason why Brawler will never rise above mid tier in his Guest XXXX form is due to how horrible his neutral is. Once the metagame advances the neutral game will become more and more important and thous with weak neutral will fall. This is also a reason why Smawler will never be top tier character. While his kill game is ridiculous at low %... Well he will not be getting in. Along with that he struggles to kill after certain % (unless he gets raw Helikick or Piston Punch). Outside his mobility and Up-B kills he is pretty bad. He has no safe approach tools. Just stay in shield and wait him to approach and punish. Also even tho he has amazing mobility... Well he is rather easy to catch. No decent player just stands there and watches while Smawler flies through the skies. In terms of tiers Brawler in Guest XXXX ruling is average and Smawler is "high tier".

Now for Gunner. One of the Brawler's issues is that he doesn't do that well in many MUs and struggles against characters with low lag moves, big disjoints and decent neutral. There is pretty much no situation where you would want to pick Brawler over Mario (expect maybe doubles). Gunner in the other hand is harder to replace. Gunner has really good MUs against majority of the cast and he does well against sword wielders. Also from the relevant characters he does well/decently (evenish) against Bayonetta, Ryu, Cloud and ZSS. There are couple MUs that are generally thought to be really bad and thous are Mario and Rosa (depending who you ask the Yoshi and Fox MUs tend to jump from evenish to big disadvantage). Gunner's place in Sm4sh is as a counterpick character. His pros are strong neutral, above average edgeguarding and ledgeguarding and his cons are being a combo food and not that great kill game. Now Gunner does have strong kill tools, but all of them require Gunner to be next to his foe and that is the last place where Gunner wants to be. This is the reason why people may live above 160% or die as early as 40% due to edgeguarding (Flame Pillar -> Up-B1/2 can end stocks really fast).
Anyways if you didn't understand what I meant... Well I will put it shorty:
- Brawler's place is in doubles
- Smawler is not top tier threat
- Gunner > Brawler in singles in terms of usability
- Swordy remains in the trash can (sadly)

Also upcoming Beast 7 will be Guest XXXX and couple relevant Mii mains have showed interest in going there (Yikarur, BigLord and Rob). It will be interesting to see how they will place.

And sorry for my poor english once again. Rather tired when I wrote this so there is most likely a lot of miss spellings etc... If you didn't get what I meant... poke mii (höhöö) about it and I will try to explain that part a bit better.

 

[Jamurai]

Yeah I was just wondering about the perceived viability of xxxx any size because imo that's the best way to bring a community (and viability) back to miis.

Brawler any size, any moveset is problematic, because of the buffed airspeed from being tiny making Helicopter Kick confirms ridiculous and pretty versatile. Allowing any size Miis would turn the community further against Miis because tiny Brawler is the main problem, being similar to pre-patch MK in many ways and hence being very frustrating to play against and deal with. Default size, any moveset is fine tho due to the HK confirm being much more strict (I believe).

Any size Gunner is maybe high tier but default size is strictly worse (probs mid tier ish, like Yika said) because of reduced mobility.

 

[TDK]

ESAM thinks Any Size xxxx brawler is the best character in the game.

 

[Luco]

And ESAM would be incorrect, because understanding your positioning at the (limited) % range where his Dthrow (---> Fair ---> ) heli kick actually links means you can avoid the dangers of that setup entirely.

i.e. Don't stand next to the ledge and you're good. I've had experience with tiny brawler and this setup, and the character itself, is very much able to be worked around.

Remember that we're coming from a customs meta where people were still trying to play most of the cast aggressively and not understanding how to play neutral and their characters effectively. I don't see small Brawler making as much of an impact in a meta where people understand stage control, where defensive / disjoints are very powerful and where people actually understand what the character can do.

 

[TDK]

And ESAM would be incorrect, because understanding your positioning at the (limited) % range where his Dthrow (---> Fair ---> ) heli kick actually links means you can avoid the dangers of that setup entirely.

i.e. Don't stand next to the ledge and you're good. I've had experience with tiny brawler and this setup, and the character itself, is very much able to be worked around.

Remember that we're coming from a customs meta where people were still trying to play most of the cast aggressively and not understanding how to play neutral and their characters effectively. I don't see small Brawler making as much of an impact in a meta where people understand stage control, where defensive / disjoints are very powerful and where people actually understand what the character can do.

He actually pointed out that with mobility + Feint Jump he could possibly be the best time-out character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNeSSgA4bv8