Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[JayE]

You can report your post and note that it was part of an accidental double post, which will alert the mods to fix the posts.

Oh I know, I've done it before. I just think it would be nice to be able to delete it yourself, thats all.

 

[NairWizard]

Funnily enough, Dabuz just posted on his twitter that he's an Olimar main.

He's not completely serious.

but he's not totally wrong, either.

It's not that Dabuz uses Olimar to counterpick characters.
Dabuz uses Olimar whenever his back is pressed to the wall. It is clearly his best character at this point.

 

[Das Koopa]

Ri-Ma will be attending G4

Genesis 4 is probably going to be the most stacked tournament in the game's history lol

 

[Sleek Media]

She loses the MU. Rosa walls out Peach without much effort and kills her easily with Uair and Up Smash. But Peach can exploit her recovery and kill Luma with very simple interactions.

So...did you like, not watch the game, or what?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Rosa doesn't beat any of the girl characters in this game worse than 55:45 as far as I know.
Unless you want to consider Puff one, but I don't know how that matchup works.

 

[verbatim]

Unless you want to consider Puff one, but I don't know how that matchup works.

You can time Puff out w/ Nairplane and occasional use of shield.


Also some of the female mii's (especially the 1111 one's) probably get destroyed.

 

[TDK]

Rosa doesn't beat any of the girl characters in this game worse than 55:45 as far as I know.
Unless you want to consider Puff one, but I don't know how that matchup works.

Technically, she beats worse than that.

 

[williamsga555]

Dabuz uses Olimar whenever his back is pressed to the wall. It is clearly his best character at this point.

I do partly wonder how much of it is opponent's lack of matchup inexperience against Olimar as well. He's not a popular character by any stretch of the imagination, and is practically built around frustrating the opponent to no end.

Regardless, it's definitely clear that his Olimar is at least equal to his Rosa. Time will tell if a gap between the two begins to grow.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Cool if I state the weaknesses that Sonic has?

Nothing meaningful.

 

[Solfiner]

Nothing meaningful.

More meaningful than pointless one-liners that shut out discussion for no real reason.

This place sometimes, I swear to god.

 

[Y2Kay]

More meaningful than pointless one-liners that shut out discussion for no real reason.

This place sometimes, I swear to god.

Have you met SaltyKracka?

Love the dude to death, but one-liners is just kinda his thing. 乁◥θ┴θ;◤ㄏ

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He has trouble getting back to neutral sometimes, his lack of range causes him trouble in some match-ups and his KO power while respectable isn't as good as other characters.

 

[NairWizard]

Nothing meaningful.

Only if you play Ganondorf.

I mean, really. Ganon has among the worst mobility in the game, so he can't touch a camping Sonic or punish Sonic's landings very easily, limited disjoints, and is gimpable so Sonic's KO power doesn't matter much.

Sonic's weaknesses don't even matter in this matchup. It's easy to say Sonic has no weaknesses if you play Ganon, but most characters do have the ability to capitalize on at least one of Sonic's problem areas.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Ganon can still catch landing in that MU even when Sonic tries to spindash away to get to safety. Uair has good coverage.

His limited mobility/recovery doesn't help though.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Can't cannon uair oos to punish spindash jump?

 

[Sleek Media]

More meaningful than pointless one-liners that shut out discussion for no real reason.

This place sometimes, I swear to god.

He's not wrong, though.

 

[Rizen]

Can't cannon uair oos to punish spindash jump?

Ganon's Uair is really good, frame 6, but his 7 frames of jumpsquat ruin OoS aerials for the most part.

 

[SJMistery]

More meaningful than pointless one-liners that shut out discussion for no real reason.

This place sometimes, I swear to god.

Trust me, you are fortunate. At least they don't resort to the Chewbacca Defense

 

[soniczx123]

He's not wrong, though.

You can keep that mindset and continue losing to Sonics if you want :3

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Only if you play Ganondorf.

I mean, really. Ganon has among the worst mobility in the game, so he can't touch a camping Sonic or punish Sonic's landings very easily, limited disjoints, and is gimpable so Sonic's KO power doesn't matter much.

Sonic's weaknesses don't even matter in this matchup. It's easy to say Sonic has no weaknesses if you play Ganon, but most characters do have the ability to capitalize on at least one of Sonic's problem areas.

I mean if Charizard has tools to deal with Sonic (Flamethrower, Grab, Super Armor, etc) most of the cast at least has something they can use.

I mean even Zelda has Nayru's Love as a "get off me" option.

 

[Sleek Media]

You can keep that mindset and continue losing to Sonics if you want :3

What if I main Sonic?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Can we all agree that Zack has the best neutral of all Bayonetta players right now? Cause I clearly remember that like a week ago people were trying to tell me that it's supposedly Saj and I never understood why.

Can we also stop pretending that Bayonetta is not top 2 in this game right now? Cause I clearly remember stating like a week ago that I think Sheik is #1, Bayonetta #2 and Diddy / Mewtwo are 3rd / 4th and people said that 2nd is too high for Bayonetta and I never understood why.

Edit: And for the record, I think it's only a matter of time until Zack will turn out to be the best Bayonetta player. Possibly as early as Genesis 4. Kid's crazy good and only like 13 years or something. How do you beat dabuz, M2K and Larry at that age?

 

[soniczx123]

Can we all agree that Zack has the best neutral of all Bayonetta players right now? Cause I clearly remember that like a week ago people were trying to tell me that it's supposedly Saj and I never understood why.

Can we also stop pretending that Bayonetta is not top 2 in this game right now? Cause I clearly remember stating like a week ago that I think Sheik is #1, Bayonetta #2 and Diddy / Mewtwo are 3rd / 4th and people said that 2nd is too high for Bayonetta and I never understood why.

Edit: And for the record, I think it's only a matter of time until Zack will turn out to be the best Bayonetta player. Possibly as early as Genesis 4. Kid's crazy good and only like 13 years or something. How do you beat dabuz, M2K and Larry at that age?

M2 top 3? Cloud and Diddy have better MU spreads and have better results. Yet, he's better than both of them??

 

[Deleted member]

Ned's Cloud MU chart.

I can see this being accurate, though I can't see being 60:40 for him

 

[Fenny]

Can we all agree that Zack has the best neutral of all Bayonetta players right now? Cause I clearly remember that like a week ago people were trying to tell me that it's supposedly Saj and I never understood why.

Saj certainly did pre-KTAR Saga.

Zack definitely does at this point, but Saj was considered to be amongst the best because of how good he was at accessing Bayo's advantage from neutral in a lot of matchups. His fault lies in his relatively weak punish game compared to who I believe are the top 3 Bayos right now (Salem, Pink Fresh and Zack) - he's a lot more conservative than them.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

KTAR Saga was four months ago ....

M2 top 3? Cloud and Diddy have better MU spreads and have better results. Yet, he's better than both of them??

I'm saying that either Diddy or Mewtwo could be either 3rd or 4th. Also note that I said that this is what I said weeks ago. You could've asked me if I still believe that to be the case for a start :3

 

[TTTTTsd]

DK is one of Cloud's good heavy matchups because once DK is on the ledge it's a slaughter.

It's actually really, really stupid. He can't get off because of how good Cloud's ledge coverage is.

 

[Deleted member]

DK is one of Cloud's good heavy matchups because once DK is on the ledge it's a slaughter.

It's actually really, really stupid. He can't get off because of how good Cloud's ledge coverage is.

Don't Zard and Bowser have the same issue too?

 

[Fenny]

KTAR Saga was four months ago ....

And since then, Saj has beaten both Pink and Salem in the ditto, because he outplayed them in the neutral.

 

[soniczx123]

KTAR Saga was four months ago ....



I'm saying that either Diddy or Mewtwo could be either 3rd or 4th. Also note that I said that this is what I said weeks ago. You could've asked me if I still believe that to be the case for a start :3

So that's not the case anymore? what's your top 5 now??

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And since then, Saj has beaten both Pink and Salem in the ditto, because he outplayed them in the neutral.

Uh, you said he was considered the best pre-KTAR Saga and I'm arguing that's not a big deal because that was 4 months ago or even longer and most of Bayonetta's result spike happened throughout the last two months or so.

I'm also not questioning Saj's proficiency in neutral. Him beating Salem and PF is a decent indicator that his neutral is stronger. But that's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying Zack's is better. I think that's a pretty safe statement to make at this point, isn't it?

So that's not the case anymore? what's your top 5 now??

I have no idea lol

The only thing I can say with confidence is that I consider Sheik and Bayonetta the two best characters and that Fox and Cloud are not top 5. Diddy Kong, though not necessaruly top 3 [but very likely], is not trailing far behind Sheik and Bayonetta. After that it becomes hard to tell. Sonic played at Umebura-SAT-KEN-level can give Diddy a run for his money but how likely is it that we'll see Sonic played like that ever again? ZSS is often seen at the lower end of top 10 but at least one ZSS player always does very well at nationals. As long as dabuz keeps winning tournaments and doing well at nationals Rosalina has to be kept in mind - him using Olimar from time to time isn't really an argument imo. If Kirihara were more active people would be reminded more often about how good a character she is. Then there's also Mewtwo who still has a lot of room to grow ... it's just really hard to say but a top 4 consisting of Shik, Bayonetta, Diddy and Mewtwo is definitely not that unlikely prospect.

 

[Fenny]

Uh, you said he was considered the best pre-KTAR Saga and I'm arguing that's not a big deal because that was 4 months ago or even longer and most of Bayonetta's result spike happened throughout the last two months or so.

I'm also not questioning Saj's proficiency in neutral. Him beating Salem and PF is a decent indicator that his neutral is stronger. But that's not what I'm arguing. I'm saying Zack's is better. I think that's a pretty safe statement to make at this point, isn't it?

I wasn't clear, my bad. When I say he certainly did, I meant it wasn't really up for contention. After KTAR Saga it became a bit more of a toss up because Pink clearly leveled up, and now it's arisen that Zack is thanks to his recent displays at Aftershock and Abadango Saga. I agree with you, just saying that there's a reason why people believe it to be Saj up until now. Not necessarily baseless.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Don't Zard and Bowser have the same issue too?

Not as much as DK does in my experience. DK's ledge options are absolutely ABYSMAL and they kind of hurt him here. Bowser enjoys the pivot grab, less tight grab % conversion window, better ledge options, etc. in this MU a lot compared to DK. Neither of them have GREAT ledge options mind you but DK's are just....yeah.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Can we also stop pretending that Bayonetta is not top 2 in this game right now?

Why should I think she is?

 

[|RK|]

Ned's Cloud MU chart.

I can see this being accurate, though I can't see being 60:40 for him

Oh hey, a top Cloud player agrees with my Kirby placement

---

EDIT: More interesting, I'm super surprised Pikachu is that much of a loss. I can understand Bayonetta, but I figured Pikachu's edgeguarding was less dangerous? I suppose I was wrong.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Oh hey, a top Cloud player agrees with my Kirby placement

---

EDIT: More interesting, I'm super surprised Pikachu is that much of a loss. I can understand Bayonetta, but I figured Pikachu's edgeguarding was less dangerous? I suppose I was wrong.

I think that has to do with the fact that Kirby can edge guard Cloud pretty badly if Kirby's on stage and Cloud isn't. Not sure how useful Blade Beam would be as a Copy Ability, but I'd imagine it getting some use in some form for spacing.

Too bad Cloud's Limit attacks and general kill power cut Kirby pretty quickly.

 

[TurboLink]

He has a lot going against him but a lot going for him at the same time. A higher airspeed would improve a lot he has going for him and make his issues less noticeable. With his Melee airspeed he could probably chain forward airs for upwards of 70%, his recovery would actually be good, bombs would be much more threatening than they already are, and he would be able to retreat a lot easier so he can continue his zoning. He could hit high tier with just a simple air speed buff but this was for top tier right? Give him a 5 frame jumpsquat, nair, and jab 1. Now he has decent cqc, a good combo breaker, and overall decreased aerial startup. He wouldn't have any major weaknesses anymore and would still retain his strong points like grab kill confirms, powerful aerials with low landing lag, strong zoning, and good survivability. It really wouldn't be that hard to buff Link, what's hard is buffing him without making him too good

I don't think he would be high tier with his Melee air speed.

And he would still have major weaknesses if he had a 5 frame jumpsquat, nair, and jab 1.

In a series with characters like Fox, Sheik, and etc. being a heavyweight will always be a major weakness. There's also his tether grab which gives him poor Oos without a bomb in hand. Another less major weakness is clanking, if Link's sword ever clanks with another character's attacks and he has worse close combat than them then a lot of the time he is forced to run away.

You can keep that mindset and continue losing to Sonics if you want :3

Just because he thinks Sonic doesn't have any meaningful weaknesses doesn't mean he heavily loses to Sonic players.

 

[|RK|]

I think that has to do with the fact that Kirby can edge guard Cloud pretty badly if Kirby's on stage and Cloud isn't. Not sure how useful Blade Beam would be as a Copy Ability, but I'd imagine it getting some use in some form for spacing.

Too bad Cloud's Limit attacks and general kill power cut Kirby pretty quickly.

The MU is patience and keeping yourself grounded. The issue (IMO) actually has nothing to do with Cloud's kill power - it's more pure (obnoxious) mobility combined with range. It can take a long time to get the opening you need... but then we can do decent damage with strings and edgeguard him for free.

Blade beam is decent for assisting with edgeguarding and tacking on extra damage to strings. Not 100% necessary though, IMO.

 

[Funbot28]

After the Midwest Mayhem tourny this is what I am seeing so far, my opinion is always changing

I feel Bayo has enough good arguments and evidence to be the best character in the game right now tbh. I also feel that Cloud was a bit overrated when both patch 1.15 and 1.16 droped, which is why I dont feel he is top 5 at this point (by a tad bit, I still rank him as 7th tho). Besides a few nuisances in minuscule placements in the top tiers, I feel the mid and low tiers are pretty stagnant and concrete at this point. Besides rises from stuff like Megaman and Marth, I feel they will all kinda stay sedentary in there spots due to the power gap between them and the top tiers. Others thoughts?

P.S I might even see the argument to put Olimar in B tier due to Dabuz really showcasing the character's potential.

 

[Yikarur]

Cloud is pretty oppressive against characters that have trouble approaching.
Like Ness and Kirby. I would go as far and say optimal Cloud play would result in a +3 Kirby and Ness MU.
Cloud is still losing the Diddy MU imo.

[Sheik, Bayonetta], Sonic, Diddy, Cloud are my personal Top5 right now.
Sheik and Bayonetta have almost no losing MUs. Sonic doesn't really seem to lose many MUs as well. Diddy is told to lose some unorthodox MUs. He would be in the Top3 bracket otherwise.

I think Mewtwo and Rosalina might not be in Top8 depending on the progress of the game.
Playing against Mewtwo needs an insane amount of match-up knowledge. He has flaws in his CQC and not the fastest options overall to get out of situations. People learn how to combat the airdodge and if you factor it out Mewtwo has problems escaping.

Rosalina is also very exploitable. You see Dabuz switching to Olimar more and more. Dabuz loses a lot of MUs with Rosalina as soon as the people play the MU correctly. Not saying the character is far worse but there is a clear counterplay to how the character works overall which will make it harder and harder for Rosalinas to make an impact in the future.