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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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QualityQ

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Midwest Mayhem 5 (211 entrants)

1. Zinoto :4diddy:
2. Ned :4cloud:
3. ESAM :4pikachu: :4mewtwo:
4. MVD :4diddy: :4mario::4cloud:
5. JJRockets :4diddy:
5. JDB! :4mario: :4ryu: :4falcon: & others
7. Nero :4pikachu:
7. yeti :4tlink:

So many dittos. Also watching the Pika ditto was pretty crazy. Great games overall. Is camping pikachu really a thing, tho?

Another thing: it seems the key to beating diddy is taking his banana and using it more effectively than he can. Watching pikachu banana -> upsmash made me reconsider that matchup.
 
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TDK

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Midwest Mayhem 5 (211 entrants)

1. Zinoto :4diddy:
2. Ned :4cloud:
3. ESAM :4pikachu: :4mewtwo:
4. MVD :4diddy: :4mario::4cloud:
5. JJRockets :4diddy:
5. JDB! :4mario: :4ryu: :4falcon: & others
7. Nero :4pikachu:
7. yeti :4tlink:

So many dittos. Also watching the Pika ditto was pretty crazy. Great games overall. Is camping pikachu really a thing, tho?
9th: Tyroy :4bayonetta2:
9th: Seth :4yoshi:
9th: Slowjoe :4fox:
9th: Dom :4fox: (?)
13th: Mister Eric :4rob:
13th: big_mak :4sheik:
13th: Mysterica :4bayonetta2:
13th: Skorpio :4robinf:

Das Koopa Das Koopa
 

HoSmash4

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If I didn't play Sheik i'd play Lucario. Why?

1. Grabbings fun
2. Charging things fun
3. Aura

In particular I've developed a more bait and punish grounded style with Sheik so Lucario kinda fits me
 
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Das Koopa

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Zinoto made the Diddy - Cloud MU look terrible in Grand Finals. 6-1'd Ned.
 

Plain Yogurt

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Just to keep this thread interesting . . .
For you guys who main characters outside of top tier (let's just say :4bayonetta::4cloud::4diddy::4fox::4mario::4mewtwo::rosalina::4sheik::4sonic::4zss:), which top tier character would you main if you had to drop your character?
I've actually already started working on a Sonic. It was really starting to bother me that I didn't really know how to play my favorite video game character (Don't give me that look). I still kinda don't, but he got me a win on a Mac a few weeks ago that I KNOW I wouldn't have beat with Shulk. From what I HAVE figured out I've enjoyed (Monado Speed with CONTROL?! Glorious!), though it's kinda weird to suddenly not have a bigass disjoint to work with.
 

TDK

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This is going to sound strange, but...

The reason I don't play most top tiers is because of Mobility. Not because their mobility is bad, but because I'm so used to playing characters with Bad mobility ( :4link: :4drmario: :4myfriends: :4corrinf: ) that trying to play a character with actual good non-burst mobility actually disorients me. This is also the reason I can't play Mario but can play Doc just fine. Odd, huh?
 

MrGameguycolor

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While we're discussing design, here's a little exercise for you guys.

If your main is not top tier, name the smallest possible change that you can think of that would make your main top tier.

If your main is already top tier, name the smallest possible change that could potentially knock your main out of top tier.

Also explain why the change would have such a large impact on the character's relative power.
This should be fun.
Here's a few individual ones for Dr. Mario:

-Air Speed: 0.943 < 1.03 (More combo options, better neutral, better edgeguarding, better recovery, etc...)

-Down Throw: 7 less frames of end lag. (More combo options & bigger window for D-throw F-air kill confirm)

-Pills: FAF 53 < 26 (Falco's lasers reincarnated)

-Up B: Sweetspot hitbox lasts the whole move & never goes into freefall, FAF 25 (Easy kill confirm, very safe & more recovery options)

-Tornado: FAF 75 < 60 & always gain height through multiple uses. (Infinite recovery ability)
 

L9999

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I'll bite to this game on mains. No thanks, I dislike everyone in top 10, I like Ness and Lucina too much. If I played a low tier, I would play Duck Hunt Dog, as he is based on annoyance and I like to annoy my opponents and get away with cheap gimmicks, which DHD has a lot. (Yes, Diddy, Cloud, and Mario are annoying but I don't like them, they don't have satisfying gimmicks).
 
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Emblem Lord

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If you consider Ryu top tier, not quite. Rosalina is also not all that fast

When I said "mobile" I meant "really mobile". Bayonetta and Mario actually feel a little too slow to me at times if that says anything.
Stop it
 

Emblem Lord

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15th?

Interesting, I'd put him around 10-11th myself.

Who are your top 15 exactly?
Why? Who does he beat that would make you say that?

You probably haven't even thought of it that far, but instead are mesmerized by him having kill confirms.

Hell 15th might even be too high. I will list every char I consider good.

:4bayonetta2::4falcon::4cloud2::4corrin::4diddy::4fox::4greninja::4mario::4marth::4megaman::4metaknight::4mewtwo::4pikachu::rosalina::4ryu::4sheik::4sonic::4villagerf::4yoshi::4zss::4lucas::4tlink:

:4ness: isn't good btw guys. Just hope you all know that.

That is certainly more then 15, but to be honest...it's tough for me to make a call.

But ANYWAY...look at that list...

Tell me who out of this list, Ryu has been shown to beat after over a year of tourney results. Other then Fox and CF of course. And honestly I don't feel Ryu bodies them. He just forces them to play a game they are not used too which frustrates players into doing stupid things and that is what Ryu thrives on. Still I DO think he has slight advantage over them. But two matches isn't enough to make a real dent in the meta. Certainly not enough to be top ten.

I am open to any argument or debate. And by beat I mean Ryu's tools neutralize in some way shape or form the tools or general gameplan of another character.
 
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Luco

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Why? Who does he beat that would make you say that?

You probably haven't even thought of it that far, but instead are mesmerized by him having kill confirms.

Hell 15th might even be too high. I will list every char I consider good.

:4bayonetta2::4falcon::4cloud2::4corrin::4diddy::4fox::4greninja::4mario::4marth::4megaman::4metaknight::4mewtwo::4pikachu::rosalina::4ryu::4sheik::4sonic::4villagerf::4yoshi::4zss::4lucas::4tlink:

:4ness: isn't good btw guys. Just hope you all know that.

That is certainly more then 15, but to be honest...it's tough for me to make a call.

But ANYWAY...look at that list...

Tell me who out of this list, Ryu has been shown to beat after over a year of tourney results. Other then Fox and CF of course. And honestly I don't feel Ryu bodies them. He just forces them to play a game they are not used too which frustrates players into doing stupid things and that is what Ryu thrives on. Still I DO think he has slight advantage over them. But two matches isn't enough to make a real dent in the meta. Certainly not enough to be top ten.

I am open to any argument or debate. And by beat I mean Ryu's tools neutralize in some way shape or form the tools or general gameplan of another character.
I don't think Ryu beats Ness anymore either no matter what you think of his viability.

A defensive Ness anyway.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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I consider Ryu a hard matchup for anyone who's game plan relies on getting in and doing damage. I guess out of those characters Mario, yoshi, sort of ZSS, and sort of MK. I'm also pretty sure you argued he went even with prepatch Bayonetta but I have no idea now, looks like its slightly in Bayonettas favor now

Ness turned bad as soon as people realized he had almost no approach options and his advantage state was ruined by decent burst mobility. Basically anyone who could reset to neutral after Ness finished a grab combo
 

Swamp Sensei

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That moment when you write a post but the nightly maintenance erases it...
Why? Who does he beat that would make you say that?

You probably haven't even thought of it that far, but instead are mesmerized by him having kill confirms.
It's less the kill confirms and how early he can kill and the non kill confirm combos that make me think so.

Ryu's kill confirms are actually kind of hard to pull off in a match if the opponent knows what to do. The more practical damage combos are much easier to do though, so that's very attractive.

I do think more than "ZOMG SO FLASHY SO HYPE," thank you very much. After all, people generally aren't as stupid as the ones in compilations.

Not a bad list, but I'd switch Yoshi for Ness personally.

Yoshi is one of my tertiary characters. He's high mid at best and will stay in the mid tier.

Tell me who out of this list, Ryu has been shown to beat after over a year of tourney results.

I am open to any argument or debate. And by beat I mean Ryu's tools neutralize in some way shape or form the tools or general gameplan of another character.
Out of your list?

Hmmm...

:4megaman::4pikachu::4greninja::4yoshi::4lucas::4falcon:

Maybe goes even with:4corrin::4metaknight::4tlink: (iffy about these but I feel it's possible, if I'd kick any of those out, it'd be :4tlink:).

I feel :4villager: is a worse character than :4ryu: but beats Ryu if that makes sense.

Admittedly, most of this is gut feelings/educated guesses. I don't play Ryu and he isn't a common tournament pick so I do not see a lot of him at a high level (I mean outside of the occasional Trela, he's not played much).

That said, from my understanding, Ryu has problems with characters that can combo him easily (:4bayonetta::4diddy::4fox::4mewtwo::4sheik:), characters that can wall him with disjoints (:4cloud::4marth::rosalina:) and characters who can rush him down (:4mario::4zss:).These all kind of play off his only okayish neutral. He's not that bad against projectiles, but he's not good against them either.

And that's just going in without specifics. As you said, Ryu does well against :4fox: and I feel he isn't too hindered by :4mewtwo: or :4zss: for similar reasons.



Am I in the ball park?
 
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Smooth Criminal

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:4ness: isn't good btw guys. Just hope you all know that.
Okay, hold up. What about Yoshi makes him better than Ness overall? I mean, I don't really buy into the pessimism brought on by most of the character's mains (he's not complete ass), but how is he that much better than Ness?

And I'm surprised you think so highly of Lucas, too.

Smooth Criminal
 

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Frankly :4ness: and :4lucas: are in about the same place.

Which is high tier.

Both are pretty good frankly, they just have a couple exploitable flaws.

Regardless I don't think the gap between the two is very big.

Luco Luco what do you think?
 
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Nobie

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Why? Who does he beat that would make you say that?

You probably haven't even thought of it that far, but instead are mesmerized by him having kill confirms.

Hell 15th might even be too high. I will list every char I consider good.

:4bayonetta2::4falcon::4cloud2::4corrin::4diddy::4fox::4greninja::4mario::4marth::4megaman::4metaknight::4mewtwo::4pikachu::rosalina::4ryu::4sheik::4sonic::4villagerf::4yoshi::4zss::4lucas::4tlink:

:4ness: isn't good btw guys. Just hope you all know that.

That is certainly more then 15, but to be honest...it's tough for me to make a call.

But ANYWAY...look at that list...

Tell me who out of this list, Ryu has been shown to beat after over a year of tourney results. Other then Fox and CF of course. And honestly I don't feel Ryu bodies them. He just forces them to play a game they are not used too which frustrates players into doing stupid things and that is what Ryu thrives on. Still I DO think he has slight advantage over them. But two matches isn't enough to make a real dent in the meta. Certainly not enough to be top ten.

I am open to any argument or debate. And by beat I mean Ryu's tools neutralize in some way shape or form the tools or general gameplan of another character.
It seems like big thing with Run is that none of his neutral tools are going to overwhelm the high/top tiers, but those characters who can be punished hardest for making mistakes are the ones that have to worry about Ryu the most. Cap and Fox are combo food, Mewtwo can cover Ryu in neutral but dies extra early. Mega Man is also combo food but has such a strong neutral that he more than makes up for it. Unfortunately for Ryu, top tier is full of excellent disadvantage states.

Including Yoshi in the list of best characters, does this really mean that the character's representation is just still not there? What is, say, Earth doing for Pit that the Yoshis like Raptor and The Wall aren't?
 

Sleek Media

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I'm pretty sure Lucas is on another level from Ness. Rope snake, better stage control, better gimping, better recovery, can kill even earlier off a throw mid-stage...what is so special about Ness?
 

Das Koopa

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PERSONAL OPINION TIER LIST TIME

Each individual character isn't ordered within the tiers, only the tiers themselves. Alternative ranking for tiers by comparison is S, A+, A, B, B+, C, D, and F

I'll give my opinion on a few characters in particular with this

--------------Top-------------
:4diddy::4sheik::4sonic::4bayonetta:

I don't get the impression that any of these four have significant weaknesses. Maybe small things.

Rocketbarrel Boost is error-prone and sometimes exploitable but between the angles and Monkey Flip, Diddy has a pretty diverse recovery to make up for it. Besides that, he's dumb. Really, really dumb. He has grab combos, airdodge read Uair kills at high %s, edgeguarding with Fair, mixup options you'll see like Nair and Dair, kill throws at the ledge at high %s, killconfirms with Dtilt and Banana, etc. Main balancing factor imo is that most of his kills come at 110%-130%, but that's not enough to stave him off from being the best character.

Sheik could also be the best. Pros have her MU spread better than Diddy's, with Diddy mains (as far as I can see) generally considering a few odd, rare MUs to be losing. However, while Sheik is a demonstrably consistent character, since the nerfs, she hasn't taken any major event where a large number of top players were in attendance, even as her tech has developed. This could be the limitations of Mr. R or VoiD showing itself, or Sheik's followup for massive % game > find a kill doesn't suit itself quite as well as Diddy's does since the latter has simpler and plainly better kill confirms.

It's weird going from Melee and Brawl's "No losing MUs = top" but I don't think Diddy loses any matchups on a significant enough level for it to seriously affect his bracket presence, and past that, in the hands of a neutral master, I feel like he's just the better character. Cloud was considered shaky for a while as a MU but top level record seems to suggest it's pretty even.

Bayonetta looks gr8 as of late. Long-term trends have stabilized her after her drop-off post nerfs, and her best results came after said nerfs. Good damage building and maximizing Witch Time punishes are a game changer. Salem rarely ever messes up punishes now whereas you'd see Tyroy, Riot, Fresh, and other top Bayos either never utilize it enough or fail a lot at maximizing returns on a successful Witch Time hit. Consider it can go as far as being an entire stock if maximized enough, that's probably one reason she's stabilized and is such a pertinent meta threat.

I think Sonic could be top 3. MU spreads from top players all indicate a top level threat, and we've seen a perfected Sonic playstyle (e.g. changing playstyle per the situation) at the hands of players like KEN and Komorikiri who have a few recent sets on top-level players with Sonic. I can't think of any weaknesses the character has. Good multi-purpose Up B, insane speed between his running speed and Spin Dash, good grab game backed up by great ground mobility, ability to time out with his mobility if the situation calls for it, etc. Extremely pressuring character to deal with if fully utilized.


--------------------High----------------------
:4fox::4zss::rosalina::4mewtwo::4cloud2::4mario:


Cloud has really good placements at the regional level as of late and is by far the best secondary pick in the hands of a skilled player, but solo winning placements are comically rare and entirely nonexistent at the top level. Close calls have happened with Tweek, M2K, Ned, etc, but they all tend to get denied. Having a bad Bayonetta matchup where she can fully reap the benefits of Witch Time with minimal effort makes his life hard even if he's great at building damage and doesn't have a lot of trouble killing. His recovery isn't as bad as people make it out to be since his double jump is gr8, but it's a pretty big weakness. If we judge him by solo, I think he's on the low end of these 10 characters.

R&L is dangerous, but matchups against disjoint-carrying characters leads to Luma dying earlier, which is only exacerbated by the existence of characters like Cloud, and worsened by the rise of characters like Marth, or the slow second-rise of old favorites like Meta Knight. Even if she doesn't lose the former two MUs (I assume both are debatable?), good spacing & disjoints seem like serious trouble for the character. Hence the high-tier instead of "top".

Ranai, ScAtt, and Kamemushi have also demonstrated that projectile heavy characters can totally contend with RosaLuma at a high level, meaning she's not quite as oppressive towards certain character subtypes as she could be. Ness MU seems pretty hopeless but that's because his recovery is reliant on a projectile, so it's not a matter of greater-than-man-can-achieve patience like it is with Villager vs. Rosa.

Mewtwo is closest to being #5 among these imo. Stupid character with a dumb grab, dumb fair, dumb projectile, dumb footstool kill, dumb everything. hatehatehate


----------------------------Upper-------------------------------
:4metaknight::4ryu::4marth::4megaman::4corrinf::4greninja::4lucina::4villager::4tlink:

All of these imo are at the cusp of high-tier. I could see Marth moving there in the future since he just appears to get better and better as a defensive character as time goes on, with MKLeo's set on Ally being a big breakthrough in particular.

I'm tentatively putting Lucina here. I think the takeaway from the character is that she's totally viable but few people will play her seriously since she's just a Marth that doesn't reap rewards as well. Might be overestimating her since Tippers assuredly make a big difference in certain MUs but she's probably either High or High-Mid, in the A-B Grade range.

----------------------High Mid------------------------
:4falcon::4lucario::4ness::4lucas::4luigi::4pikachu:

I've been a Lucario skeptic for a long time. His results are subpar and his mains are notably inconsistent. I think his neutral is bad and he almost totally relies on comeback gimmicks, lone strings that equalize the playing field enough that he can snap somebody off with aura-charged aerials, etc. He can have good runs but he'll never win a major and his luck will eventually run out if he keeps running into players with really precise neutral games that outplay him. The keyword here is he "can" jank, and has (ZeRo died at 30% in his match at Day to an Up Smash, according to a spectator on Reddit) but this is an anomaly that the bad design behind the character allowed, not a game-by-game trend. He needs game-by-game trends like that, in my opinion, to be higher on the list.

I'm not sure on Ness/Lucas. Both feel like they hover in the same place. Both have strong grab games but I feel like Lucas' stronger recovery might make him more formidable long-term, and spaced PK Fire is gr8. Both have kill throws but Ness' Bair is unmatched afaik. I think Shaky and FOW's runs at Genesis 4 will give an answer of where this character stands long term but I could see Lucas maintaining this position while Ness drops. Lucas has more to his name recently, at the very least.


---------------------------------Mid------------------------------------
:4bowser::4darkpit::4dk::4olimar::4peach::4pit::4rob::4robinf::4yoshi:

**** ROB. 20BeepBeep sux. Skynet sux. No competent robot rebellion can be upended by Gyro getting grabbed and proper DI stifling your grab combo. For real, though, I think he's a decent mid-tier but MU knowledge tanks him super hard. His kit isn't awful but he really gets hurt without the one-two Laser/Gyro hit to build extra damage and keep the opponent spaced.

Grapplers (Bowser & DK) are good but inconsistent since they rely on grabs and can cheese you one game but get destroyed the next. That's often referred to as bad game design, but admittedly, in a movement-based game that naturally favors speed... it's hard to make heavyweights work since they're naturally slower, meaning you need to add gimmicks or cheap kills to their arsenal to equalize them with the rest of the cast.

I'm not convinced Yoshi is good. No hype that's ever built up around his mains ever amounts to anything, it doesn't feel like he has a gameplan and he just has a bunch of variously decent-but-disconnected tools that don't lead into each other or form a good flowchart, etc. I may have commented on this before and had a response after Yoshidora got 17th at a Japanese tourney, not sure.


-------------------------Low Mid----------------------------
:4duckhunt::4myfriends::4littlemac::4link::4gaw::4pacman::4wario::4wiifitm:

I'm meshing this as best I can, but it feels a lot cleaner than it did so many months ago when I tried to separate the mid-tier swamp of "maybe they're good" characters. Pac, Wario, and Ike all have demonstrated decline. WFT, G&W, and Mac are notable stagnant, long being considered low-to-lower mid tier.

I think Link and Duck Hunt has leveled up, and as a potential future Link user, I'd like to believe he can rise as a character - it feels like he has the most potential of any character in this category (and opinions on him are all over the place) - but I'm holding him here for now, especially after T's recent bombs.

Opinion on trajectory, since I feel like "Lower Mid" is basically a Borderline tier that most characters will move upwards/downward from:

WFT - Stagnant, likely has found her niche as a lower mid tier character, maybe top of low if John Numbers starts bombing or goes Corrin most of the time.

Wario, Pac-Man, Little Mac - Downwards. Mac has been stagnant but his continual lack of breakthrough makes me think his mains will eventually start dropping him. He's been on that edge of making a major accomplishment, but it never really happens, and he's confined to a regional level and seems like a lock for an inconsistent-type that can just lose if he's put in a bad situation that most characters would survive.

Link, Duck Hunt, Mr. Game & Watch - Upwards(?). Duck Hunt has a lot going for him, but I don't know if it's a lot of gimmickry that's increasingly been figured out in Japan. Duck Hunts don't place as well as they used too (though you had a recent good run) which makes me wonder if DH is doomed to stagnate or decline. G4 might answer some questions on this.

Mr. Game & Watch almost seems like a good character. I'd like any resident G&Ws to comment on him, actually, because seeing Regi's play makes me wonder why more people haven't picked the character up. Any major disadvantages that really bomb the character?

------------------------------Low-----------------------------------------
:4bowserjr::4charizard::4drmario::4kirby::4palutena::4feroy::4samus::4shulk::4miigun:

I think all of these characters will have randomly good performances and niches but none of them will aspire much higher than that. Palutena looked good for a while, but nothing came of it, and the other characters here are stuck in Low Tier hell with little to their names beyond one-hit-wonders. BJ declined to this point, Shulk hasn't had the breakout moment his mains have wanted forever, I forget Kirby even exists, etc.

Roy feels like he might be on the cusp of something, with HyperKirby's GA performance and Ryo's performance with Roy, but I think that might file under the "one-hit-wonder" category, especially if we don't see repeats of it in the future. He's probably the only character at this point that could go higher at some point imo. Maybe Samus, too? I want IcyMist to attend more stuff.


-----------------------Bottom--------------------------
:4dedede::4falco::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff::4zelda::4miisword::4miibrawl:

As somebody who used to use Falco a lot I might just be pessimistic but I don't think his Bair or Uthrow combos salvage him. His mobility is awful and he just can't do much of anything. Constantly feels like he needs to get hard reads to kill, his recovery being mediocre isn't justified due to him not having the same amount of pressure-building Fox does... etc. Anragon's MU chart is also horrible looking for him as a character. Using this tier list, 7/10 of the top characters are in the "significant disadvantage" or "disadvantage" equivalent lists:



This would imply that his only Even or better MUs exist as high as mid-tier... that's particularly bad if accurate, and little has materialized to make me believe anything else. Even AC seems to liberally use secondaries. Our resident Falco guy can chime in on this I guess. I think the other characters here are too bad for him to be bottom 5 but I think he's bottom 10 for sure.

I think Ganondorf may be the worst character. I remember discussions of how power-shield heavy Ganondorf is totally not that bad, but the character has so little to his name after nearly two years - it's just a character that feels like he has no gameplan beyond applying basic fundamentals and hoping his reads work out while being saddled with an actually bad recovery and bad mobility.

Rest are just bad for endlessly discussed reasons. None of them are and ever will be tournament viable outside of incidental regional placements. Barring major buffs with a possible Switch port, you will never, ever, ever see a D3, Zelda, Ganondorf, etc. placing very well with main-with-secondary/solo at a major. Ever. It's like trying to main Roy in Melee.
 
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mountain_tiger

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Why? Who does he beat that would make you say that?

You probably haven't even thought of it that far, but instead are mesmerized by him having kill confirms.

Hell 15th might even be too high. I will list every char I consider good.

:4bayonetta2::4falcon::4cloud2::4corrin::4diddy::4fox::4greninja::4mario::4marth::4megaman::4metaknight::4mewtwo::4pikachu::rosalina::4ryu::4sheik::4sonic::4villagerf::4yoshi::4zss::4lucas::4tlink:

:4ness: isn't good btw guys. Just hope you all know that.
I mostly agree with this list, but I'd add :4peach:there as well. Her tournament results, matchups on paper etc. all point to her being either just inside or just outside of top 20.
 

Luco

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Actually Swamp Sensei Swamp Sensei you might be surprised, Lucas is known to beat Ryu at this point.

I'll probably be the one to defend Ness to my dying breath, but characters resetting to neutral vs Ness isn't a bad thing so long as Ness gets the advantage in the first place. Case in point was Ness mains used to think we lost to Sonic hard until we realised we play patient until we get the lead then wall Sonic out hard and it's like, not oppressive anymore. Case in point was S1 3-0ing Ixis (although game 2 Ixis hardcore flubbed an edge-guard which killed him). All that crying Ness mains did a year ago about not having aerials safe on block was just them trying to get away with semi-aggressive play like Sheik - Bair is perfectly safe on block and walls a large portion of the cast. Ness still has trouble with swordies of course, so DLC did no favours to his viability, but his gameplan isn't dysfunctional, which I think is the leap everyone else took when his top mains disappeared.

In terms of the two I agree they're probably hovering in the same place right now, I'm interested to see if G4 will bring anything to light though.
 

Emblem Lord

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Dammit guys.

The most important thing yall need to take from my previous post is that Lucas is the MAN!!!
 

soniczx123

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PERSONAL OPINION TIER LIST TIME

Each individual character isn't ordered within the tiers, only the tiers themselves. Alternative ranking for tiers by comparison is S, A+, A, B, B+, C, D, and F

I'll give my opinion on a few characters in particular with this

--------------Top-------------
:4diddy::4sheik::4sonic::4bayonetta:

I don't get the impression that any of these four have significant weaknesses. Maybe small things.

Rocketbarrel Boost is error-prone and sometimes exploitable but between the angles and Monkey Flip, Diddy has a pretty diverse recovery to make up for it. Besides that, he's dumb. Really, really dumb. He has grab combos, airdodge read Uair kills at high %s, edgeguarding with Fair, mixup options you'll see like Nair and Dair, kill throws at the ledge at high %s, killconfirms with Dtilt and Banana, etc. Main balancing factor imo is that most of his kills come at 110%-130%, but that's not enough to stave him off from being the best character.

Sheik could also be the best. Pros have her MU spread better than Diddy's, with Diddy mains (as far as I can see) generally considering a few odd, rare MUs to be losing. However, while Sheik is a demonstrably consistent character, since the nerfs, she hasn't taken any major event where a large number of top players were in attendance, even as her tech has developed. This could be the limitations of Mr. R or VoiD showing itself, or Sheik's followup for massive % game > find a kill doesn't suit itself quite as well as Diddy's does since the latter has simpler and plainly better kill confirms.

It's weird going from Melee and Brawl's "No losing MUs = top" but I don't think Diddy loses any matchups on a significant enough level for it to seriously affect his bracket presence, and past that, in the hands of a neutral master, I feel like he's just the better character. Cloud was considered shaky for a while as a MU but top level record seems to suggest it's pretty even.

Bayonetta looks gr8 as of late. Long-term trends have stabilized her after her drop-off post nerfs, and her best results came after said nerfs. Good damage building and maximizing Witch Time punishes are a game changer. Salem rarely ever messes up punishes now whereas you'd see Tyroy, Riot, Fresh, and other top Bayos either never utilize it enough or fail a lot at maximizing returns on a successful Witch Time hit. Consider it can go as far as being an entire stock if maximized enough, that's probably one reason she's stabilized and is such a pertinent meta threat.

I think Sonic could be top 3. MU spreads from top players all indicate a top level threat, and we've seen a perfected Sonic playstyle (e.g. changing playstyle per the situation) at the hands of players like KEN and Komorikiri who have a few recent sets on top-level players with Sonic. I can't think of any weaknesses the character has. Good multi-purpose Up B, insane speed between his running speed and Spin Dash, good grab game backed up by great ground mobility, ability to time out with his mobility if the situation calls for it, etc. Extremely pressuring character to deal with if fully utilized.


--------------------High----------------------
:4fox::4zss::rosalina::4mewtwo::4cloud2::4mario:


Cloud has really good placements at the regional level as of late and is by far the best secondary pick in the hands of a skilled player, but solo winning placements are comically rare and entirely nonexistent at the top level. Close calls have happened with Tweek, M2K, Ned, etc, but they all tend to get denied. Having a bad Bayonetta matchup where she can fully reap the benefits of Witch Time with minimal effort makes his life hard even if he's great at building damage and doesn't have a lot of trouble killing. His recovery isn't as bad as people make it out to be since his double jump is gr8, but it's a pretty big weakness. If we judge him by solo, I think he's on the low end of these 10 characters.

R&L is dangerous, but matchups against disjoint-carrying characters leads to Luma dying earlier, which is only exacerbated by the existence of characters like Cloud, and worsened by the rise of characters like Marth, or the slow second-rise of old favorites like Meta Knight. Even if she doesn't lose the former two MUs (I assume both are debatable?), good spacing & disjoints seem like serious trouble for the character. Hence the high-tier instead of "top".

Ranai, ScAtt, and Kamemushi have also demonstrated that projectile heavy characters can totally contend with RosaLuma at a high level, meaning she's not quite as oppressive towards certain character subtypes as she could be. Ness MU seems pretty hopeless but that's because his recovery is reliant on a projectile, so it's not a matter of greater-than-man-can-achieve patience like it is with Villager vs. Rosa.

Mewtwo is closest to being #5 among these imo. Stupid character with a dumb grab, dumb fair, dumb projectile, dumb footstool kill, dumb everything. hatehatehate


----------------------------Upper-------------------------------
:4metaknight::4ryu::4marth::4megaman::4corrinf::4greninja::4lucina::4villager::4tlink:

All of these imo are at the cusp of high-tier. I could see Marth moving there in the future since he just appears to get better and better as a defensive character as time goes on, with MKLeo's set on Ally being a big breakthrough in particular.

I'm tentatively putting Lucina here. I think the takeaway from the character is that she's totally viable but few people will play her seriously since she's just a Marth that doesn't reap rewards as well. Might be overestimating her since Tippers assuredly make a big difference in certain MUs but she's probably either High or High-Mid, in the A-B Grade range.

----------------------High Mid------------------------
:4falcon::4lucario::4ness::4lucas::4luigi::4pikachu:

I've been a Lucario skeptic for a long time. His results are subpar and his mains are notably inconsistent. I think his neutral is bad and he almost totally relies on comeback gimmicks, lone strings that equalize the playing field enough that he can snap somebody off with aura-charged aerials, etc. He can have good runs but he'll never win a major and his luck will eventually run out if he keeps running into players with really precise neutral games that outplay him. The keyword here is he "can" jank, and has (ZeRo died at 30% in his match at Day to an Up Smash, according to a spectator on Reddit) but this is an anomaly that the bad design behind the character allowed, not a game-by-game trend. He needs game-by-game trends like that, in my opinion, to be higher on the list.

I'm not sure on Ness/Lucas. Both feel like they hover in the same place. Both have strong grab games but I feel like Lucas' stronger recovery might make him more formidable long-term, and spaced PK Fire is gr8. Both have kill throws but Ness' Bair is unmatched afaik. I think Shaky and FOW's runs at Genesis 4 will give an answer of where this character stands long term but I could see Lucas maintaining this position while Ness drops. Lucas has more to his name recently, at the very least.


---------------------------------Mid------------------------------------
:4bowser::4darkpit::4dk::4olimar::4peach::4pit::4rob::4robinf::4yoshi:

**** ROB. 20BeepBeep sux. Skynet sux. No competent robot rebellion can be upended by Gyro getting grabbed and proper DI stifling your grab combo. For real, though, I think he's a decent mid-tier but MU knowledge tanks him super hard. His kit isn't awful but he really gets hurt without the one-two Laser/Gyro hit to build extra damage and keep the opponent spaced.

Grapplers (Bowser & DK) are good but inconsistent since they rely on grabs and can cheese you one game but get destroyed the next. That's often referred to as bad game design, but admittedly, in a movement-based game that naturally favors speed... it's hard to make heavyweights work since they're naturally slower, meaning you need to add gimmicks or cheap kills to their arsenal to equalize them with the rest of the cast.

I'm not convinced Yoshi is good. No hype that's ever built up around his mains ever amounts to anything, it doesn't feel like he has a gameplan and he just has a bunch of variously decent-but-disconnected tools that don't lead into each other or form a good flowchart, etc. I may have commented on this before and had a response after Yoshidora got 17th at a Japanese tourney, not sure.


-------------------------Low Mid----------------------------
:4duckhunt::4myfriends::4littlemac::4link::4gaw::4pacman::4wario::4wiifitm:

I'm meshing this as best I can, but it feels a lot cleaner than it did so many months ago when I tried to separate the mid-tier swamp of "maybe they're good" characters. Pac, Wario, and Ike all have demonstrated decline. WFT, G&W, and Mac are notable stagnant, long being considered low-to-lower mid tier.

I think Link and Duck Hunt has leveled up, and as a potential future Link user, I'd like to believe he can rise as a character - it feels like he has the most potential of any character in this category (and opinions on him are all over the place) - but I'm holding him here for now, especially after T's recent bombs.

Opinion on trajectory, since I feel like "Lower Mid" is basically a Borderline tier that most characters will move upwards/downward from:

WFT - Stagnant, likely has found her niche as a lower mid tier character, maybe top of low if John Numbers starts bombing or goes Corrin most of the time.

Wario, Pac-Man, Little Mac - Downwards. Mac has been stagnant but his continual lack of breakthrough makes me think his mains will eventually start dropping him. He's been on that edge of making a major accomplishment, but it never really happens, and he's confined to a regional level and seems like a lock for an inconsistent-type that can just lose if he's put in a bad situation that most characters would survive.

Link, Duck Hunt, Mr. Game & Watch - Upwards(?). Duck Hunt has a lot going for him, but I don't know if it's a lot of gimmickry that's increasingly been figured out in Japan. Duck Hunts don't place as well as they used too (though you had a recent good run) which makes me wonder if DH is doomed to stagnate or decline. G4 might answer some questions on this.

Mr. Game & Watch almost seems like a good character. I'd like any resident G&Ws to comment on him, actually, because seeing Regi's play makes me wonder why more people haven't picked the character up. Any major disadvantages that really bomb the character?

------------------------------Low-----------------------------------------
:4bowserjr::4charizard::4drmario::4kirby::4palutena::4feroy::4samus::4shulk::4miigun:

I think all of these characters will have randomly good performances and niches but none of them will aspire much higher than that. Palutena looked good for a while, but nothing came of it, and the other characters here are stuck in Low Tier hell with little to their names beyond one-hit-wonders. BJ declined to this point, Shulk hasn't had the breakout moment his mains have wanted forever, I forget Kirby even exists, etc.

Roy feels like he might be on the cusp of something, with HyperKirby's GA performance and Ryo's performance with Roy, but I think that might file under the "one-hit-wonder" category, especially if we don't see repeats of it in the future. He's probably the only character at this point that could go higher at some point imo. Maybe Samus, too? I want IcyMist to attend more stuff.


-----------------------Bottom--------------------------
:4dedede::4falco::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff::4zelda::4miisword::4miibrawl:

As somebody who used to use Falco a lot I might just be pessimistic but I don't think his Bair or Uthrow combos salvage him. His mobility is awful and he just can't do much of anything. Constantly feels like he needs to get hard reads to kill, his recovery being mediocre isn't justified due to him not having the same amount of pressure-building Fox does... etc. Anragon's MU chart is also horrible looking for him as a character. Using this tier list, 7/10 of the top characters are in the "significant disadvantage" or "disadvantage" equivalent lists:



This would imply that his only Even or better MUs exist as high as mid-tier... that's particularly bad if accurate, and little has materialized to make me believe anything else. Even AC seems to liberally use secondaries. Our resident Falco guy can chime in on this I guess. I think the other characters here are too bad for him to be bottom 5 but I think he's bottom 10 for sure.

I think Ganondorf may be the worst character. I remember discussions of how power-shield heavy Ganondorf is totally not that bad, but the character has so little to his name after nearly two years - it's just a character that feels like he has no gameplan beyond applying basic fundamentals and hoping his reads work out while being saddled with an actually bad recovery and bad mobility.

Rest are just bad for endlessly discussed reasons. None of them are and ever will be tournament viable outside of incidental regional placements. Barring major buffs with a possible Switch port, you will never, ever, ever see a D3, Zelda, Ganondorf, etc. placing very well with main-with-secondary/solo at a major. Ever. It's like trying to main Roy in Melee.
Cool if I state the weaknesses that Sonic has?
 

HoSmash4

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Joined
Jun 24, 2015
Messages
688
I'm pretty sure Lucas is on another level from Ness. Rope snake, better stage control, better gimping, better recovery, can kill even earlier off a throw mid-stage...what is so special about Ness?
His aerials, airdodge, and back throw
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
PERSONAL OPINION TIER LIST TIME

Each individual character isn't ordered within the tiers, only the tiers themselves. Alternative ranking for tiers by comparison is S, A+, A, B, B+, C, D, and F

I'll give my opinion on a few characters in particular with this

--------------Top-------------
:4diddy::4sheik::4sonic::4bayonetta:

I don't get the impression that any of these four have significant weaknesses. Maybe small things.

Rocketbarrel Boost is error-prone and sometimes exploitable but between the angles and Monkey Flip, Diddy has a pretty diverse recovery to make up for it. Besides that, he's dumb. Really, really dumb. He has grab combos, airdodge read Uair kills at high %s, edgeguarding with Fair, mixup options you'll see like Nair and Dair, kill throws at the ledge at high %s, killconfirms with Dtilt and Banana, etc. Main balancing factor imo is that most of his kills come at 110%-130%, but that's not enough to stave him off from being the best character.

Sheik could also be the best. Pros have her MU spread better than Diddy's, with Diddy mains (as far as I can see) generally considering a few odd, rare MUs to be losing. However, while Sheik is a demonstrably consistent character, since the nerfs, she hasn't taken any major event where a large number of top players were in attendance, even as her tech has developed. This could be the limitations of Mr. R or VoiD showing itself, or Sheik's followup for massive % game > find a kill doesn't suit itself quite as well as Diddy's does since the latter has simpler and plainly better kill confirms.

It's weird going from Melee and Brawl's "No losing MUs = top" but I don't think Diddy loses any matchups on a significant enough level for it to seriously affect his bracket presence, and past that, in the hands of a neutral master, I feel like he's just the better character. Cloud was considered shaky for a while as a MU but top level record seems to suggest it's pretty even.

Bayonetta looks gr8 as of late. Long-term trends have stabilized her after her drop-off post nerfs, and her best results came after said nerfs. Good damage building and maximizing Witch Time punishes are a game changer. Salem rarely ever messes up punishes now whereas you'd see Tyroy, Riot, Fresh, and other top Bayos either never utilize it enough or fail a lot at maximizing returns on a successful Witch Time hit. Consider it can go as far as being an entire stock if maximized enough, that's probably one reason she's stabilized and is such a pertinent meta threat.

I think Sonic could be top 3. MU spreads from top players all indicate a top level threat, and we've seen a perfected Sonic playstyle (e.g. changing playstyle per the situation) at the hands of players like KEN and Komorikiri who have a few recent sets on top-level players with Sonic. I can't think of any weaknesses the character has. Good multi-purpose Up B, insane speed between his running speed and Spin Dash, good grab game backed up by great ground mobility, ability to time out with his mobility if the situation calls for it, etc. Extremely pressuring character to deal with if fully utilized.


--------------------High----------------------
:4fox::4zss::rosalina::4mewtwo::4cloud2::4mario:


Cloud has really good placements at the regional level as of late and is by far the best secondary pick in the hands of a skilled player, but solo winning placements are comically rare and entirely nonexistent at the top level. Close calls have happened with Tweek, M2K, Ned, etc, but they all tend to get denied. Having a bad Bayonetta matchup where she can fully reap the benefits of Witch Time with minimal effort makes his life hard even if he's great at building damage and doesn't have a lot of trouble killing. His recovery isn't as bad as people make it out to be since his double jump is gr8, but it's a pretty big weakness. If we judge him by solo, I think he's on the low end of these 10 characters.

R&L is dangerous, but matchups against disjoint-carrying characters leads to Luma dying earlier, which is only exacerbated by the existence of characters like Cloud, and worsened by the rise of characters like Marth, or the slow second-rise of old favorites like Meta Knight. Even if she doesn't lose the former two MUs (I assume both are debatable?), good spacing & disjoints seem like serious trouble for the character. Hence the high-tier instead of "top".

Ranai, ScAtt, and Kamemushi have also demonstrated that projectile heavy characters can totally contend with RosaLuma at a high level, meaning she's not quite as oppressive towards certain character subtypes as she could be. Ness MU seems pretty hopeless but that's because his recovery is reliant on a projectile, so it's not a matter of greater-than-man-can-achieve patience like it is with Villager vs. Rosa.

Mewtwo is closest to being #5 among these imo. Stupid character with a dumb grab, dumb fair, dumb projectile, dumb footstool kill, dumb everything. hatehatehate


----------------------------Upper-------------------------------
:4metaknight::4ryu::4marth::4megaman::4corrinf::4greninja::4lucina::4villager::4tlink:

All of these imo are at the cusp of high-tier. I could see Marth moving there in the future since he just appears to get better and better as a defensive character as time goes on, with MKLeo's set on Ally being a big breakthrough in particular.

I'm tentatively putting Lucina here. I think the takeaway from the character is that she's totally viable but few people will play her seriously since she's just a Marth that doesn't reap rewards as well. Might be overestimating her since Tippers assuredly make a big difference in certain MUs but she's probably either High or High-Mid, in the A-B Grade range.

----------------------High Mid------------------------
:4falcon::4lucario::4ness::4lucas::4luigi::4pikachu:

I've been a Lucario skeptic for a long time. His results are subpar and his mains are notably inconsistent. I think his neutral is bad and he almost totally relies on comeback gimmicks, lone strings that equalize the playing field enough that he can snap somebody off with aura-charged aerials, etc. He can have good runs but he'll never win a major and his luck will eventually run out if he keeps running into players with really precise neutral games that outplay him. The keyword here is he "can" jank, and has (ZeRo died at 30% in his match at Day to an Up Smash, according to a spectator on Reddit) but this is an anomaly that the bad design behind the character allowed, not a game-by-game trend. He needs game-by-game trends like that, in my opinion, to be higher on the list.

I'm not sure on Ness/Lucas. Both feel like they hover in the same place. Both have strong grab games but I feel like Lucas' stronger recovery might make him more formidable long-term, and spaced PK Fire is gr8. Both have kill throws but Ness' Bair is unmatched afaik. I think Shaky and FOW's runs at Genesis 4 will give an answer of where this character stands long term but I could see Lucas maintaining this position while Ness drops. Lucas has more to his name recently, at the very least.


---------------------------------Mid------------------------------------
:4bowser::4darkpit::4dk::4olimar::4peach::4pit::4rob::4robinf::4yoshi:

**** ROB. 20BeepBeep sux. Skynet sux. No competent robot rebellion can be upended by Gyro getting grabbed and proper DI stifling your grab combo. For real, though, I think he's a decent mid-tier but MU knowledge tanks him super hard. His kit isn't awful but he really gets hurt without the one-two Laser/Gyro hit to build extra damage and keep the opponent spaced.

Grapplers (Bowser & DK) are good but inconsistent since they rely on grabs and can cheese you one game but get destroyed the next. That's often referred to as bad game design, but admittedly, in a movement-based game that naturally favors speed... it's hard to make heavyweights work since they're naturally slower, meaning you need to add gimmicks or cheap kills to their arsenal to equalize them with the rest of the cast.

I'm not convinced Yoshi is good. No hype that's ever built up around his mains ever amounts to anything, it doesn't feel like he has a gameplan and he just has a bunch of variously decent-but-disconnected tools that don't lead into each other or form a good flowchart, etc. I may have commented on this before and had a response after Yoshidora got 17th at a Japanese tourney, not sure.


-------------------------Low Mid----------------------------
:4duckhunt::4myfriends::4littlemac::4link::4gaw::4pacman::4wario::4wiifitm:

I'm meshing this as best I can, but it feels a lot cleaner than it did so many months ago when I tried to separate the mid-tier swamp of "maybe they're good" characters. Pac, Wario, and Ike all have demonstrated decline. WFT, G&W, and Mac are notable stagnant, long being considered low-to-lower mid tier.

I think Link and Duck Hunt has leveled up, and as a potential future Link user, I'd like to believe he can rise as a character - it feels like he has the most potential of any character in this category (and opinions on him are all over the place) - but I'm holding him here for now, especially after T's recent bombs.

Opinion on trajectory, since I feel like "Lower Mid" is basically a Borderline tier that most characters will move upwards/downward from:

WFT - Stagnant, likely has found her niche as a lower mid tier character, maybe top of low if John Numbers starts bombing or goes Corrin most of the time.

Wario, Pac-Man, Little Mac - Downwards. Mac has been stagnant but his continual lack of breakthrough makes me think his mains will eventually start dropping him. He's been on that edge of making a major accomplishment, but it never really happens, and he's confined to a regional level and seems like a lock for an inconsistent-type that can just lose if he's put in a bad situation that most characters would survive.

Link, Duck Hunt, Mr. Game & Watch - Upwards(?). Duck Hunt has a lot going for him, but I don't know if it's a lot of gimmickry that's increasingly been figured out in Japan. Duck Hunts don't place as well as they used too (though you had a recent good run) which makes me wonder if DH is doomed to stagnate or decline. G4 might answer some questions on this.

Mr. Game & Watch almost seems like a good character. I'd like any resident G&Ws to comment on him, actually, because seeing Regi's play makes me wonder why more people haven't picked the character up. Any major disadvantages that really bomb the character?

------------------------------Low-----------------------------------------
:4bowserjr::4charizard::4drmario::4kirby::4palutena::4feroy::4samus::4shulk::4miigun:

I think all of these characters will have randomly good performances and niches but none of them will aspire much higher than that. Palutena looked good for a while, but nothing came of it, and the other characters here are stuck in Low Tier hell with little to their names beyond one-hit-wonders. BJ declined to this point, Shulk hasn't had the breakout moment his mains have wanted forever, I forget Kirby even exists, etc.

Roy feels like he might be on the cusp of something, with HyperKirby's GA performance and Ryo's performance with Roy, but I think that might file under the "one-hit-wonder" category, especially if we don't see repeats of it in the future. He's probably the only character at this point that could go higher at some point imo. Maybe Samus, too? I want IcyMist to attend more stuff.


-----------------------Bottom--------------------------
:4dedede::4falco::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff::4zelda::4miisword::4miibrawl:

As somebody who used to use Falco a lot I might just be pessimistic but I don't think his Bair or Uthrow combos salvage him. His mobility is awful and he just can't do much of anything. Constantly feels like he needs to get hard reads to kill, his recovery being mediocre isn't justified due to him not having the same amount of pressure-building Fox does... etc. Anragon's MU chart is also horrible looking for him as a character. Using this tier list, 7/10 of the top characters are in the "significant disadvantage" or "disadvantage" equivalent lists:



This would imply that his only Even or better MUs exist as high as mid-tier... that's particularly bad if accurate, and little has materialized to make me believe anything else. Even AC seems to liberally use secondaries. Our resident Falco guy can chime in on this I guess. I think the other characters here are too bad for him to be bottom 5 but I think he's bottom 10 for sure.

I think Ganondorf may be the worst character. I remember discussions of how power-shield heavy Ganondorf is totally not that bad, but the character has so little to his name after nearly two years - it's just a character that feels like he has no gameplan beyond applying basic fundamentals and hoping his reads work out while being saddled with an actually bad recovery and bad mobility.

Rest are just bad for endlessly discussed reasons. None of them are and ever will be tournament viable outside of incidental regional placements. Barring major buffs with a possible Switch port, you will never, ever, ever see a D3, Zelda, Ganondorf, etc. placing very well with main-with-secondary/solo at a major. Ever. It's like trying to main Roy in Melee.
It wasn't quite the breakout moment, but 13th at Get on My Level 2016 is still an impressive achievement. Nicko, Darkwolf and Masha still all have decent results on their name so I wouldn't say he's a one hit wonder with the results he has amassed. If anything his results have been getting better this year, especially compared to any other point in the meta. I'm not particularly against him being in low tier, but him being low-mid feels more realistic imo. Character is definitely not a tier worse than :4duckhunt::4pacman::4wiifit:and I even think Duck Hunt is pretty alright.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
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Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
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Switch FC
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Okay, hold up. What about Yoshi makes him better than Ness overall? I mean, I don't really buy into the pessimism brought on by most of the character's mains (he's not complete ***), but how is he that much better than Ness?

And I'm surprised you think so highly of Lucas, too.

Smooth Criminal
He isn't. I was being playful. Ness is there and I think Ness and Yoshi are pretty much the bottom rung of good characters. I just feel Ness is far more one dimensional and everything he does to try to control or limit someone is generally of moderate risk and he leaves himself open when he does so.

That moment when you write a post but the nightly maintenance erases it...

It's less the kill confirms and how early he can kill and the non kill confirm combos that make me think so.

Ryu's kill confirms are actually kind of hard to pull off in a match if the opponent knows what to do. The more practical damage combos are much easier to do though, so that's very attractive.

I do think more than "ZOMG SO FLASHY SO HYPE," thank you very much. After all, people generally aren't as stupid as the ones in compilations.


Not a bad list, but I'd switch Yoshi for Ness personally.

Yoshi is one of my tertiary characters. He's high mid at best and will stay in the mid tier.


Out of your list?

Hmmm...

:4megaman::4pikachu::4greninja::4yoshi::4lucas::4falcon:

Maybe goes even with:4corrin::4metaknight::4tlink: (iffy about these but I feel it's possible, if I'd kick any of those out, it'd be :4tlink:).

I feel :4villager: is a worse character than :4ryu: but beats Ryu if that makes sense.

Admittedly, most of this is gut feelings/educated guesses. I don't play Ryu and he isn't a common tournament pick so I do not see a lot of him at a high level (I mean outside of the occasional Trela, he's not played much).

That said, from my understanding, Ryu has problems with characters that can combo him easily (:4bayonetta::4diddy::4fox::4mewtwo::4sheik:), characters that can wall him with disjoints (:4cloud::4marth::rosalina:) and characters who can rush him down (:4mario::4zss:).These all kind of play off his only okayish neutral. He's not that bad against projectiles, but he's not good against them either.

And that's just going in without specifics. As you said, Ryu does well against :4fox: and I feel he isn't too hindered by :4mewtwo: or :4zss: for similar reasons.



Am I in the ball park?
Ryu loses to Megaman flat out. The only reason that match isn't 7/3 is because Megaman is pure combo food.

ZSS does not lose to Ryu.


Ryu forces people to play "properly", i.e play to win and for many characters that means playing "lame".

Ryu loses to Yoshi and Lucas as well.

Generally if you can disengage from Ryu and control mid range, you beat Ryu.
 
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bc1910

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On paper Ryu does not beat Greninja.

In practice I don't think two high level players of these characters have met recently?

I see greninja as possibly top 15 already so I don't think he needs a huge change but yea this would definitely make him top tier. Also if you take 3-5 frames off dthrow but keep the angle, you could dthrow footstool at low percents, dthrow upsmash (possibly only with bad DI), and downthrow fair would be true rather than a 50/50
I considered that, but taking frames off Dthrow without altering the angle would most likely keep everything DIable and change, in practical terms, nothing.

If not, he would probably get Dthrow Usmash at kill percent, which would legitimately be a borderline broken kill option. So either way I would prefer an angle change.
 
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Nu~

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Your #1 sounds fun, but it still doesn't give people a good reason not to just block against Pac-Man the entire time. I mean, that buff would mean instant launch melons again which could lead to crazy shield pressure, but that still takes a lot of time + loses to spaced aerials.

Your #2 sounds like an unblockable witch twist, except possibly better because it could then combo into a charge shot (Key) or ZSS' Dsmash (Bell). That would definitely make Pac-Man top 10, but that'd be an insane buff.
Admittedly I got lost in the fun of it all instead of trying to come up with the most practical solution lol.

More practical solutions would either be your solution or giving him an actual grab and a kill throw
 
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D

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On paper Ryu does not beat Greninja.

In practice I don't think two high level players of these characters have met recently?



I considered that, but taking frames off Dthrow without altering the angle would most likely keep everything DIable and change, in practical terms, nothing.

If not, he would probably get Dthrow Usmash at kill percent, which would legitimately be a borderline broken kill option. So either way I would prefer an angle change.
Depends on your definition of high level players, but there's this. It's from June, though.

 

Emblem Lord

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Ryu does not beat Greninja, no.

If you put a gun to my head I would give it to Greninja, even though I feel it's even.
 

Vyrnx

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I'm pretty sure Lucas is on another level from Ness. Rope snake, better stage control, better gimping, better recovery, can kill even earlier off a throw mid-stage...what is so special about Ness?
Lucas and Ness are pretty different characters. Whenever either of the PK kids are brought up, in turns into explanations of why one character is a better version of the other.

Both of them have really good grab games, are small, slow, can absorb stuff, have weird double jumps, and are good characters probably around upper mid tier. That's about where the comparisons end. How they play neutral, advantage, and disadvantage (aka Smash) are totally different.

It's self explanatory how these characters are fundamentally different by looking at their movesets or watching their gameplay, and moving past the observation that they come from the same game and their specials look the same.

I also still don't understand why everyone who wants to prove Ness's overratedness decides to bring up his killthrow, which is about the worst route you could possibly go.


Both of these characters are occasionally worth discussing, but not in terms of each other like how it always goes down.
 

Das Koopa

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Cool if I state the weaknesses that Sonic has?
I'm genuinely curious lol

Disjoints? I know a lot of Sonics think he loses to Cloud so I guess swordies can give him problems
 

Laken64

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Just today

1.) Ally - Mario, Megaman
2) Venom - Ryu
3) Yoh - Sheik and Diddy
4) Blacktwins - Mario, Cloud
5) Jpeds - Diddy
5) Chris - Diddy
7) Ray Kalm - Ganon
7) Holy - Rob
/60

https://smash.gg/tournament/radeon-extravalanza-ft-sm4sh-1/events/wii-u-singles/standings

60 Entrants
Ok I'm late on this but Ally using :4megaman: is very interesting considering the extreme contrast of his play style compared to:4mario: and Ally's unpredictable clutch like play style in general.
 

SJMistery

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The Mewtwo infinite is definitely within the capability of a human. Doing the the Nair - FS - Disable isn't hard (with the right button set up / practice). Landing the Nair with that perfect spacing to get the foot stool out of it is when it gets tricky. Abadango is able to pounce on these rare oppurtunites with a high success rate.

The only thing stopping high level Mewtwo mains from performing the infinite on people in tournament is their pride, not their fingers.

:150:
And the Circle Pad combined with lag, on the 3ds version...
 

jet56

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PERSONAL OPINION TIER LIST TIME

Each individual character isn't ordered within the tiers, only the tiers themselves. Alternative ranking for tiers by comparison is S, A+, A, B, B+, C, D, and F

I'll give my opinion on a few characters in particular with this

--------------Top-------------
:4diddy::4sheik::4sonic::4bayonetta:

I don't get the impression that any of these four have significant weaknesses. Maybe small things.

Rocketbarrel Boost is error-prone and sometimes exploitable but between the angles and Monkey Flip, Diddy has a pretty diverse recovery to make up for it. Besides that, he's dumb. Really, really dumb. He has grab combos, airdodge read Uair kills at high %s, edgeguarding with Fair, mixup options you'll see like Nair and Dair, kill throws at the ledge at high %s, killconfirms with Dtilt and Banana, etc. Main balancing factor imo is that most of his kills come at 110%-130%, but that's not enough to stave him off from being the best character.

Sheik could also be the best. Pros have her MU spread better than Diddy's, with Diddy mains (as far as I can see) generally considering a few odd, rare MUs to be losing. However, while Sheik is a demonstrably consistent character, since the nerfs, she hasn't taken any major event where a large number of top players were in attendance, even as her tech has developed. This could be the limitations of Mr. R or VoiD showing itself, or Sheik's followup for massive % game > find a kill doesn't suit itself quite as well as Diddy's does since the latter has simpler and plainly better kill confirms.

It's weird going from Melee and Brawl's "No losing MUs = top" but I don't think Diddy loses any matchups on a significant enough level for it to seriously affect his bracket presence, and past that, in the hands of a neutral master, I feel like he's just the better character. Cloud was considered shaky for a while as a MU but top level record seems to suggest it's pretty even.

Bayonetta looks gr8 as of late. Long-term trends have stabilized her after her drop-off post nerfs, and her best results came after said nerfs. Good damage building and maximizing Witch Time punishes are a game changer. Salem rarely ever messes up punishes now whereas you'd see Tyroy, Riot, Fresh, and other top Bayos either never utilize it enough or fail a lot at maximizing returns on a successful Witch Time hit. Consider it can go as far as being an entire stock if maximized enough, that's probably one reason she's stabilized and is such a pertinent meta threat.

I think Sonic could be top 3. MU spreads from top players all indicate a top level threat, and we've seen a perfected Sonic playstyle (e.g. changing playstyle per the situation) at the hands of players like KEN and Komorikiri who have a few recent sets on top-level players with Sonic. I can't think of any weaknesses the character has. Good multi-purpose Up B, insane speed between his running speed and Spin Dash, good grab game backed up by great ground mobility, ability to time out with his mobility if the situation calls for it, etc. Extremely pressuring character to deal with if fully utilized.


--------------------High----------------------
:4fox::4zss::rosalina::4mewtwo::4cloud2::4mario:


Cloud has really good placements at the regional level as of late and is by far the best secondary pick in the hands of a skilled player, but solo winning placements are comically rare and entirely nonexistent at the top level. Close calls have happened with Tweek, M2K, Ned, etc, but they all tend to get denied. Having a bad Bayonetta matchup where she can fully reap the benefits of Witch Time with minimal effort makes his life hard even if he's great at building damage and doesn't have a lot of trouble killing. His recovery isn't as bad as people make it out to be since his double jump is gr8, but it's a pretty big weakness. If we judge him by solo, I think he's on the low end of these 10 characters.

R&L is dangerous, but matchups against disjoint-carrying characters leads to Luma dying earlier, which is only exacerbated by the existence of characters like Cloud, and worsened by the rise of characters like Marth, or the slow second-rise of old favorites like Meta Knight. Even if she doesn't lose the former two MUs (I assume both are debatable?), good spacing & disjoints seem like serious trouble for the character. Hence the high-tier instead of "top".

Ranai, ScAtt, and Kamemushi have also demonstrated that projectile heavy characters can totally contend with RosaLuma at a high level, meaning she's not quite as oppressive towards certain character subtypes as she could be. Ness MU seems pretty hopeless but that's because his recovery is reliant on a projectile, so it's not a matter of greater-than-man-can-achieve patience like it is with Villager vs. Rosa.

Mewtwo is closest to being #5 among these imo. Stupid character with a dumb grab, dumb fair, dumb projectile, dumb footstool kill, dumb everything. hatehatehate


----------------------------Upper-------------------------------
:4metaknight::4ryu::4marth::4megaman::4corrinf::4greninja::4lucina::4villager::4tlink:

All of these imo are at the cusp of high-tier. I could see Marth moving there in the future since he just appears to get better and better as a defensive character as time goes on, with MKLeo's set on Ally being a big breakthrough in particular.

I'm tentatively putting Lucina here. I think the takeaway from the character is that she's totally viable but few people will play her seriously since she's just a Marth that doesn't reap rewards as well. Might be overestimating her since Tippers assuredly make a big difference in certain MUs but she's probably either High or High-Mid, in the A-B Grade range.

----------------------High Mid------------------------
:4falcon::4lucario::4ness::4lucas::4luigi::4pikachu:

I've been a Lucario skeptic for a long time. His results are subpar and his mains are notably inconsistent. I think his neutral is bad and he almost totally relies on comeback gimmicks, lone strings that equalize the playing field enough that he can snap somebody off with aura-charged aerials, etc. He can have good runs but he'll never win a major and his luck will eventually run out if he keeps running into players with really precise neutral games that outplay him. The keyword here is he "can" jank, and has (ZeRo died at 30% in his match at Day to an Up Smash, according to a spectator on Reddit) but this is an anomaly that the bad design behind the character allowed, not a game-by-game trend. He needs game-by-game trends like that, in my opinion, to be higher on the list.

I'm not sure on Ness/Lucas. Both feel like they hover in the same place. Both have strong grab games but I feel like Lucas' stronger recovery might make him more formidable long-term, and spaced PK Fire is gr8. Both have kill throws but Ness' Bair is unmatched afaik. I think Shaky and FOW's runs at Genesis 4 will give an answer of where this character stands long term but I could see Lucas maintaining this position while Ness drops. Lucas has more to his name recently, at the very least.


---------------------------------Mid------------------------------------
:4bowser::4darkpit::4dk::4olimar::4peach::4pit::4rob::4robinf::4yoshi:

**** ROB. 20BeepBeep sux. Skynet sux. No competent robot rebellion can be upended by Gyro getting grabbed and proper DI stifling your grab combo. For real, though, I think he's a decent mid-tier but MU knowledge tanks him super hard. His kit isn't awful but he really gets hurt without the one-two Laser/Gyro hit to build extra damage and keep the opponent spaced.

Grapplers (Bowser & DK) are good but inconsistent since they rely on grabs and can cheese you one game but get destroyed the next. That's often referred to as bad game design, but admittedly, in a movement-based game that naturally favors speed... it's hard to make heavyweights work since they're naturally slower, meaning you need to add gimmicks or cheap kills to their arsenal to equalize them with the rest of the cast.

I'm not convinced Yoshi is good. No hype that's ever built up around his mains ever amounts to anything, it doesn't feel like he has a gameplan and he just has a bunch of variously decent-but-disconnected tools that don't lead into each other or form a good flowchart, etc. I may have commented on this before and had a response after Yoshidora got 17th at a Japanese tourney, not sure.


-------------------------Low Mid----------------------------
:4duckhunt::4myfriends::4littlemac::4link::4gaw::4pacman::4wario::4wiifitm:

I'm meshing this as best I can, but it feels a lot cleaner than it did so many months ago when I tried to separate the mid-tier swamp of "maybe they're good" characters. Pac, Wario, and Ike all have demonstrated decline. WFT, G&W, and Mac are notable stagnant, long being considered low-to-lower mid tier.

I think Link and Duck Hunt has leveled up, and as a potential future Link user, I'd like to believe he can rise as a character - it feels like he has the most potential of any character in this category (and opinions on him are all over the place) - but I'm holding him here for now, especially after T's recent bombs.

Opinion on trajectory, since I feel like "Lower Mid" is basically a Borderline tier that most characters will move upwards/downward from:

WFT - Stagnant, likely has found her niche as a lower mid tier character, maybe top of low if John Numbers starts bombing or goes Corrin most of the time.

Wario, Pac-Man, Little Mac - Downwards. Mac has been stagnant but his continual lack of breakthrough makes me think his mains will eventually start dropping him. He's been on that edge of making a major accomplishment, but it never really happens, and he's confined to a regional level and seems like a lock for an inconsistent-type that can just lose if he's put in a bad situation that most characters would survive.

Link, Duck Hunt, Mr. Game & Watch - Upwards(?). Duck Hunt has a lot going for him, but I don't know if it's a lot of gimmickry that's increasingly been figured out in Japan. Duck Hunts don't place as well as they used too (though you had a recent good run) which makes me wonder if DH is doomed to stagnate or decline. G4 might answer some questions on this.

Mr. Game & Watch almost seems like a good character. I'd like any resident G&Ws to comment on him, actually, because seeing Regi's play makes me wonder why more people haven't picked the character up. Any major disadvantages that really bomb the character?

------------------------------Low-----------------------------------------
:4bowserjr::4charizard::4drmario::4kirby::4palutena::4feroy::4samus::4shulk::4miigun:

I think all of these characters will have randomly good performances and niches but none of them will aspire much higher than that. Palutena looked good for a while, but nothing came of it, and the other characters here are stuck in Low Tier hell with little to their names beyond one-hit-wonders. BJ declined to this point, Shulk hasn't had the breakout moment his mains have wanted forever, I forget Kirby even exists, etc.

Roy feels like he might be on the cusp of something, with HyperKirby's GA performance and Ryo's performance with Roy, but I think that might file under the "one-hit-wonder" category, especially if we don't see repeats of it in the future. He's probably the only character at this point that could go higher at some point imo. Maybe Samus, too? I want IcyMist to attend more stuff.


-----------------------Bottom--------------------------
:4dedede::4falco::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff::4zelda::4miisword::4miibrawl:

As somebody who used to use Falco a lot I might just be pessimistic but I don't think his Bair or Uthrow combos salvage him. His mobility is awful and he just can't do much of anything. Constantly feels like he needs to get hard reads to kill, his recovery being mediocre isn't justified due to him not having the same amount of pressure-building Fox does... etc. Anragon's MU chart is also horrible looking for him as a character. Using this tier list, 7/10 of the top characters are in the "significant disadvantage" or "disadvantage" equivalent lists:



This would imply that his only Even or better MUs exist as high as mid-tier... that's particularly bad if accurate, and little has materialized to make me believe anything else. Even AC seems to liberally use secondaries. Our resident Falco guy can chime in on this I guess. I think the other characters here are too bad for him to be bottom 5 but I think he's bottom 10 for sure.

I think Ganondorf may be the worst character. I remember discussions of how power-shield heavy Ganondorf is totally not that bad, but the character has so little to his name after nearly two years - it's just a character that feels like he has no gameplan beyond applying basic fundamentals and hoping his reads work out while being saddled with an actually bad recovery and bad mobility.

Rest are just bad for endlessly discussed reasons. None of them are and ever will be tournament viable outside of incidental regional placements. Barring major buffs with a possible Switch port, you will never, ever, ever see a D3, Zelda, Ganondorf, etc. placing very well with main-with-secondary/solo at a major. Ever. It's like trying to main Roy in Melee.
Really well done list. I think G4 will be a big eye opener for a lot of characters, and will be fun to watch nontheless.

I should note that almost all the top mac mains will be at G4, including Sol, Vash, Duffo, Alphicans, Cagt, myself (Senpai), Pu55yk1ng, Wonderbread, maybe ZekkenB, and even more. Not just for mac, but it will be a make it or break it moment in terms of a characters status and place in the meta. Im super excited about Duck Hunt.
 
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