Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Y2Kay]

The problem with most of charizard's throws is there's no way to ombo into them once the percentage gets high enough. Being able to forward throw and then always be able to follow up with a forward aerial (or really any of zard's throws with fair) at 80% or higher would make zard a terrifying opponent to face because as soon as you hit those percentages you'd know you were screwed! Also....what's a 'ding dong'?

Donkey Kong's cargo forward throw up air kill confirm

 

[FeelMeUp]

It's not possible to make heavyweights good in this series without them either being insanely annoying or reliant on gimmicks/very few ridiculously broken tools.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Donkey Kong's cargo forward throw up air kill confirm

I...I've been nearly put on the receiving end of that but I've always interrupted the grab with jab or flamethrower (nothing says 'back off!' like a flamethrower to your face)

 

[Nobie]

How effective a character is in competition does not necessarily reflect how good their concept and design is, but how effectively they can execute the game plans their character is meant to have can reflect on how overpowered or underpowered said character is.

This is really a very subjective thing, but I believe that good character design for a game is not about how strong they are in competition, because it's not necessarily the case that the best characters are also the best-designed. Rather, it's about giving a character meaningful strengths and weaknesses that make them rewarding to play. Given that different people have different preferred playing styles/hopes for how they want to play, it means that having different types of characters is also important.

Ganondorf is a much worse character than Sheik, but Ganondorf also represents a completely different play style. The matchup is imbalanced, but that doesn't mean the idea of a "hard reads heavy hitter" is guaranteed to failure. In fact, I think they're purposely very hesitant when it comes to buffing Ganondorf because they don't want to end up trivializing others in the process or removing the heavy hitter style.

I think NairWizard 's exercise is meant to help us consider the following: Buffing a character to be the best character in the game isn't difficult. You can just go, "Uhh, game & watch down smash KOs at 50% now and also bucket does a bajillion damage" and be done with it, but to have characters be made "viable" without necessarily ruining their archetype is more important as a thought exercise.

As for Palutena, her character type to me is basically "shenanigans." She's designed with a mix of weirdly overpowered and underpowered moves and properties, and she's supposed to be there for players who want that sort of eclectic mix. She has an invincible bair and dash attack so she can challenge any attack. Her tilts are terribly slow, but their hitboxes can't be interrupted (this especially makes for interesting interactions with Witch Time. Her Reflect is unblockable for some reason! She has this gigantic pillar-of-light up smash too. Can you effectively master your combination of gimmicks to the extent that they can cover your weaknesses?

 

[Nathan Richardson]

How effective a character is in competition does not necessarily reflect how good their concept and design is, but how effectively they can execute the game plans their character is meant to have can reflect on how overpowered or underpowered said character is.

This is really a very subjective thing, but I believe that good character design for a game is not about how strong they are in competition, because it's not necessarily the case that the best characters are also the best-designed. Rather, it's about giving a character meaningful strengths and weaknesses that make them rewarding to play. Given that different people have different preferred playing styles/hopes for how they want to play, it means that having different types of characters is also important.

Ganondorf is a much worse character than Sheik, but Ganondorf also represents a completely different play style. The matchup is imbalanced, but that doesn't mean the idea of a "hard reads heavy hitter" is guaranteed to failure. In fact, I think they're purposely very hesitant when it comes to buffing Ganondorf because they don't want to end up trivializing others in the process or removing the heavy hitter style.

I think NairWizard 's exercise is meant to help us consider the following: Buffing a character to be the best character in the game isn't difficult. You can just go, "Uhh, game & watch down smash KOs at 50% now and also bucket does a bajillion damage" and be done with it, but to have characters be made "viable" without necessarily ruining their archetype is more important as a thought exercise.

As for Palutena, her character type to me is basically "shenanigans." She's designed with a mix of weirdly overpowered and underpowered moves and properties, and she's supposed to be there for players who want that sort of eclectic mix. She has an invincible bair and dash attack so she can challenge any attack. Her tilts are terribly slow, but their hitboxes can't be interrupted (this especially makes for interesting interactions with Witch Time. Her Reflect is unblockable for some reason! She has this gigantic pillar-of-light up smash too. Can you effectively master your combination of gimmicks to the extent that they can cover your weaknesses?

I think you hit the nail right on the head. When I thought about buffing my zard I also was thinking 'but I don't want to change him too much or he'd be a different character entirely' most of the buffs people think about or throw out might actually change the dynamic or playstyle of their character. Do you know how hard it is to switch up your entire playstyle when you're already used to one?!?

 

[SaltyKracka]

but that doesn't mean the idea of a "hard reads heavy hitter" is guaranteed to failure.

Au contraire.

As I've said, any character which relies upon "hard reads" is already doomed to failure. If you don't have any game plan aside from making "hard reads", you're automatically worse off than those who have the luxury of having a standard game plan and the ability to also make "hard reads".

This is of course ignoring the standard that anybody consistently making "hard reads" is indubitably better than their opponent in the first place.

 

[outfoxd]

Lowered kb growth and/or heightened hitstun on DHs dthrow would make him scary with a 50/50 and having to respect the relative ease he gets grabs because you could die would make him nerve wracking.

 

[NairWizard]

This ... doesn't make sense at all?

We're analyzing the competitive merits of characters here. From that point of view Ganondorf is poorly designed. It's really... not complicated.

I'll define some of the terms for us (loosely, based on the intuitive meaning) because I think we're talking on crossed wires here.

From a strictly competitive standpoint (as in, leaving out aesthetics, sound, etc.), design encompasses the fundamental archetype of the character, the game modes the character is meant to excel in, the playstyle the character is meant to use, the counter-playstyle other characters are meant to use against the character, and other aspects that directly or indirectly increase the character's uniqueness relative to the cast.

A competitive design is a design that is capable of being competitively viable if the numbers are well balanced.

A balanced character is a character whose numbers are tuned well enough to reach this competitive design.

A description of Ganondorf's design (scrawled on Sakurai's napkin at lunch, let's say) might read: strong/damaging single hits, every move kills, poor recovery, big frame and easy to hit, gets juggled a lot, slow on the ground, rewarded for patient play.

How strong is strong? Does f-air do 14% or 17%? How early do the moves kill? How big is the frame? How slow is "slow"? How patient is patient? The answers to these questions are not part of the character's design. These are issues of balance.



The exercise (while fun) was meant to provoke some thought about why the developers can't just throw random changes on the characters to make them good (though they have before especially with regard to heavyweights), because most changes will fundamentally alter a character's design.

There are a lot of good suggestions on this page. Shoutouts to BSP and FeelMeUp for having some of the cleanest/most elegant ones that also work.

For the record I think that Link would be top tier if you gave his hookshot (z-air, and also his grab) even more range than it was already given, like 30% more range. He's meant to be a vertical wall who struggles when the opponent gets too close, so to maintain his design but make him competitively shine would require buffing the walling aspect in some way.

 

[Nobie]

Au contraire.

As I've said, any character which relies upon "hard reads" is already doomed to failure. If you don't have any game plan aside from making "hard reads", you're automatically worse off than those who have the luxury of having a standard game plan and the ability to also make "hard reads".

This is of course ignoring the standard that anybody consistently making "hard reads" is indubitably better than their opponent in the first place.

I think in Smash in particular, this is more of a challenge than in other fighting games due to how spacious the stages are. When the opponent can just run away, it makes cornering them and keeping them there rather difficult.

But I don't think it's as hopeless as you seem to believe, and in fact I think Smash 4 Ganondorf is pointed in the right direction even if he's not all there. The main way I think a "hard reads" character can eventually thrive is if he is less punished/punishable for making mistakes compared to other characters. You already kind of have this with Ganondorf, because up smash is remarkably safe for how strong it is, and his smash attacks in general are safe on shield. He had a serious flaw in that he used to lack any sort of remotely quick attacks, but the jab buff gave him at least something to work with.

I think I mentioned this back in the very first Competitive Impressions thread, but I think what this should eventually lead to is a character who has a combination of very speedy attacks with long recovery and slow attacks with very fast recovery. Thus, you would not be able to spam attacks and hope for the best, but you'd be constantly encouraged to make reads because the risk/reward factor would be titled in your favor.

Am I arguing to give Ganondorf a frame 1 jab that has like 50 frames of recovery? Maaaaaybe.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Hrmm going along with giving characters buffs that fit their playstyle.....zard is a 'bait and punish' character. He's meant to draw opponents in and then punish any mistakes they make when the opponent attacks. Going by this logic a good buff would be to remove or reduce the KB zard suffers when he shields moves. Allowing him to punish more effectively and keep his dynamics and playstyle intact.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Quickest way to make Ike a top tier...

1) Quickdraw. Significantly faster start up time/reaching max charge time (88 Frames -> 22 Frames), significantly faster swing time (Frame 16 -> Frame 8), significantly faster FAF after a swing (Frame 59 -> Frame 29 ), can always act after using it in the air not just when Ike is forced to swing, projectile invincibility from let go to swing animation starts, can hold down the A button to make Ike not swing and just go through opponents at the cost of some distance. Reduce no swing FAF (Frame 57 -> Frame 25).

Really, compare it to Fox's Side B currently speaking. Its uh, not good. Okay recovery option, that's about it. This improves both his recovery and his ability to get in. After that:

2) Make his Counter activate Frame 5, move the shaved off start up time to recovery time on a whiffed counter.

He needs a way to break juggles to be top tier. That's the smoothest way to do it.

Beyond that you could nitpick fixing up things about his Aether, Dair, and smashes, but those two along would make him much more dangerous. He already has good killing potential and a good combo game. Recovery, getting in, and anti-juggle would be the key points to hit.

 

[Y2Kay]

Just to keep this thread interesting . . .
For you guys who main characters outside of top tier (let's just say ), which top tier character would you main if you had to drop your character?

And so we don't exclude the tier hos (kek) from the conversation, if you guys had to main someone outside of those 10. who would it be? And why?

My pick for a top tier main would obviously be , but that's kind of cheating.

and would be my pick of mains if for some reason I was forced not to play or . I must say, I'm a sucker for smooth movement options and good neutral options and these two hit the spot.

If I had to main a Low tier it would be . I just find him underrated. I would be interested in pushing his meta, but I got to put the fear of the frog in these boys first!

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Sonic.

If I didn't have arthritis problems I'd probably be dabbling in him already. I think too many Sonic mains stick to just one playstyle and don't know how to mold or combine multiple playing styles as needed. Example: Aggro Sonics frequently don't know when to cut and run for the last bit because they have a lead, or don't know how to use Spin Dash at closer range instead of only at long range. Campy Sonics tend to have sub-optimal Spin Dash usages and punishes. KEN does it the best so far.

 

[Mega-Spider]

Mainly because I have the most experience with him out of all the top tiers, and he's the only one I really like using. I used to play back in the very early meta, but I kinda got bored of her.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I'll gladly give up for .

Both have legitimate smash attacks for hard reads and awesome punish games, but fox doesn't suffer up lose and has OOS options. He also can semi-camp, and has a really good neutral. I'm a fundamentals-based player, but I like to be creative, so fox can be very versatile in that aspect.

But, every top tier is pretty versatile, sooo It can be very hard to pick.

 

[Fenny]

If I had to choose a low tier to play, it'd probably be Roy. Ignoring his annoying noodle sword tip, he's a blast to play tbh.

 

[Krysco]

I'm similar in being able to say but also be 'cheating' though if I had to pick a top tier other than Mewtwo then it'd be any one of these . The first 2 being easy to pick up and play and effective but also incredibly boring while the latter is more complicated but also a character I find more interesting.

Non top tiers... but again, kinda cheating. Other than Roy, I'd probably say . I'm just now trying to get into the character in this game after having used him in Melee, Brawl and PM as a secondary. He changed too drastically from those iterations in my eyes, Wolf was taken out, Ganon and Kirby were/are still poor characters and Mario was/is very boring so I've spent the games entire life span drifting from character to character since I lost interest in every veteran I'm comfortable with. I was comfortable with for the longest time but then his entire meta shifted to his ladder combo and I ditched the character. Could see myself going back to him if I care enough to.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Well, I already secondary/main corrin (Main Rosa/Sonic) so I guess they would be who I pick. I don't even play Rosa and sonic cause of tiers. I wanted to main them since they were revealed to be in the game.

 

[|RK|]

I'd have to play Mario, probably. I'd say Fox, but I can't live with that disadvantage state/recovery.

 

[Nu~]

Probabaly Bayonetta.

She has all the craziness, traps, and tomfoolery that I love in a character. Options for days and easy ways to convert to her versatile and powerful advatage state.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bayonetta.

Just several things she doesn't really need to THINK about. Like ledge traps or recovery. Which means her player can focus on other things that allow them to secure victory.

 

[ARGHETH]

Probably Cloud, since I generally prefer playing swordsmen and I'm using to dealing with bad recoveries anyways.

 

[TDK]

would be the easiest for me, since I've been maining/secondarying her for this game's entire lifespan. I only just recently dropped her, but she's still in my pocket if I need her. Also I just like the idea of being a moving fortress.

is also a character I used to play before 1.15, but I played a more ZeRo-esque Sheik so I doubt I'd be able to play her well now.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

IDK about you guys, but I'm pretty sure every character in top tier land is insanely versatile. Even characters outside of it like mega man, villager, marth, and friends.

You can almost close your eyes and go," eenie Mennie Minnie mo" with this if you're looking for characters with options.

Feels pretty good seeing something an opponent is doing bad and being able to capitalize on just that on the jump.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

If I didn't main diddy or m2, my next pick would be marth. I honestly need an excuse to pick up that character he's so clean

 

[Sleek Media]

I like to dabble in , but I am really skeptical of her top tier status. I used to see tons of Rosas in competitive play, but I never felt that I was under overwhelming pressure or that I couldn't catch/corner her, unlike . If I was going to be a super tryhard, I'd main and pocket . They both get absolutely INSANE reward for basically no work. Maybe Shiek and Diddy still have the edge at the absolute top level, but I'd have to work three times as hard to be equally good with them. With these two I can just zone until I get my opening and then laugh as I dial in an easy 50%.

 

[Nah]

idk, probably like or something

the first 2 fit in to some degree with the playstyle of the characters I already play, and Sheik is just something I've always wanted to play but haven't been able to get the hang of

 

[Deleted member]

I already main a low tier, so but if I had to pick either or . Both are absolute blasts to play and have some explosive comeback potential, particularly Zard. It's a shame how flawed they are, but it'd be cool to see their meta's be advanced.

If I REALLY had to main a high tier it would be either or . I used to main the both of them at some point but ended up giving up on them for Shulk due to him ultimately fitting more if what I wanted in a character. I don't like how Marth feels in this game but I guess I'd stick with him for character loyalty for him being my Brawl main.

M2's neutral is just fantastic as is his pressure, zoning and grab reward. Plus, it's Mewtwo. That makes him with picking alone.

 

[FullMoon]

If I had to choose a top tier to main and learn everything about I'd probably go with since she's my favorite top tier in the game. Failing that, , and are options as well.

In general I just need a character that is mobile and has a good combo game.

 

[WhatIsRaizen?]

Just today

1.) Ally - Mario, Megaman
2) Venom - Ryu
3) Yoh - Sheik and Diddy
4) Blacktwins - Mario, Cloud
5) Jpeds - Diddy
5) Chris - Diddy
7) Ray Kalm - Ganon
7) Holy - Rob
/60

https://smash.gg/tournament/radeon-extravalanza-ft-sm4sh-1/events/wii-u-singles/standings

60 Entrants

 

[Galaxeon]

I dropped for once (now they're kind of both my mains though). If I had to pick other top tiers, I'd say and . In general, I like combos, mobility and strong offstage presence (sure, this doesn't apply for all of these characters, like Bayonetta isn't the quickest, but damn her combos and edgeguards feel so good).
In the non-top tiers, I'd say . He feels somewhat similar to ZSS on paper, it would be interesting. It seems he has a lot of cool tricks.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

In general I just need a character that is mobile and has a good combo game.

That is literally every top tier in this game

 

[bc1910]

All greninja needs to be broken is to change the start up on Forward Air to 10 frames or lower.

Broken is a very strong word.

Fair doesn't kill early enough for this to be true anyway, hyperbole notwithstanding.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

There is no single/small change that would make Link top-tier.

I mean, increasing his air speed to be the same as in melee would be amazing

 

[Das Koopa]

KEN's recent placements are definitely backing him up as a top 5 JP player. Top 5 is pretty clearly Komo, Ranai, Kameme, KEN, and Abadango interntionally, with 6/7/8/9/10 probably going to Shuton, Earth, Nietono, Kirihara, and Taiheita. Link has has leveled off a bit with 2 bad T performances; could be increased matchup familiarity, could be a temporary slump, but it's discouraging especially if he's gonna be on Japan crews.

FOW and Shaky are both confirmed to be going to Genesis 4.

Going to be exciting to see Ness at top level like this again, here's to hoping they perform well.

FREDDIE

OMAR

WILLIAMS

 

[FullMoon]

That is literally every top tier in this game

If you consider Ryu top tier, not quite. Rosalina is also not all that fast

When I said "mobile" I meant "really mobile". Bayonetta and Mario actually feel a little too slow to me at times if that says anything.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

If you put a gun to my head and said I had to give up my character loyalty and pick an upper or top tier i'd go with not because of his moves or anything but because I already had to play him to clear the difficulty 9.0 challenge so I at least have some clue as to his fundamentals.

 

[Luco]

If you consider Ryu top tier, not quite. Rosalina is also not all that fast

When I said "mobile" I meant "really mobile". Bayonetta and Mario actually feel a little too slow to me at times if that says anything.

Actually Ryu can get craaaazy combos if he gets the right start. Fair combos into itself at low percents x2 (maybe x3?) and Nair sets up into grounded thingymabobs. You just don't see it because people have finally realised they need to stop freaking challenging that guy and just counterpoke the hell out of him.

While I'd never drop my kiddies, if it had to happen I'd probably be looking at , for me maining requires passion and I have a lot of love for our psychic friend.

I surprised myself to find I could see myself going after too. I have no idea where that one came from though.

Shoutouts to Nobie and Solidsense for articulating themselves far better than I ever could. X.X

 

[E.D.N.D.N]

Luigi just needs his old down throw, if that can be considered a small change. Though he'd still get counterpicked hard. I don't think you could make him truly top tier without some fairly drastic movement buffs.

I don't think you could knock Sheik out of top tier with a single small change. At least one out of her autocancel windows, Bouncing Fish and maybe Fair landing lag would need to be hit hard.



This alone wouldn't make him top tier. He would need to be able to hold the charge I think.

A more subtle change? Reduce Nair's landing lag from 12 to 10 frames. Turns an already safe move into a safe on shield combo starter. Nair Jab as shield pressure would work on the entire cast as opposed to only those with f7 or worse grabs.

An angle tweak for Dthrow to make Dthrow Fair un-DIable (but still a 50/50) would do it too.

I see greninja as possibly top 15 already so I don't think he needs a huge change but yea this would definitely make him top tier. Also if you take 3-5 frames off dthrow but keep the angle, you could dthrow footstool at low percents, dthrow upsmash (possibly only with bad DI), and downthrow fair would be true rather than a 50/50

 

[BSP]

*rubs hands maniacally*

This should be fun.

...
I have 2 different routes:

1) Raise the percentage of all bonus fruit by 2% and lower the FAF to 32.

Now Bonus Fruit are scary. You now have more true blockstrings, excellent shield pressure, and WAY easier kills. Following up on your fruit is now easy and combos from BF don't all have to come from item tossing. The FAF is reasonable because getting a fruit in the hand is so much harder for Pac-Man than other item characters. This way he doesn't HAVE to go through all that excess work just to get going.


2) Trampoline no longer puts you into helpless and it stores your jump

One of the biggest complaints that Pacman mains have is that trampoline, while a frame 1 shield popper, doesn't offer much reward. In fact, you can be punished on hit at lower percentages.

However...


If you take away the helpless state like sonic and mega man's...you make it broken.

Now Pac-Man can combo trampoline launches into bairs at the ledge, fruit tosses, uairs...you name it. You also have a much better stage control tool because using it in neutral is not nearly as punishable.

Also, you get a new landing option. Pac-man can trampoline away as he's trying to land OR he can use it as he's being juggled, reverse the positioning of him and the opponent, and now counter juggle the opponent (kinda like Luigi's Nair).
You could do a whole lot of other fun things too like setting up combos (dash attack your opponent into the trampoline and let the ride begin), easy footstool deaths (trampoline under your opponent off stage and keep footstooling them back into the trampoline until they die...lol), and so on.

Your #1 sounds fun, but it still doesn't give people a good reason not to just block against Pac-Man the entire time. I mean, that buff would mean instant launch melons again which could lead to crazy shield pressure, but that still takes a lot of time + loses to spaced aerials.

Your #2 sounds like an unblockable witch twist, except possibly better because it could then combo into a charge shot (Key) or ZSS' Dsmash (Bell). That would definitely make Pac-Man top 10, but that'd be an insane buff.