Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TurboLink]

I mean, increasing his air speed to be the same as in melee would be amazing

Yes it most certainly would be but Link just has too much going against him. Of course some of these flaws can obviously be worked around.

 

[soniczx123]

I'm genuinely curious lol

Disjoints? I know a lot of Sonics think he loses to Cloud so I guess swordies can give him problems

Trouble taking the stock

Non-existent landing options

Lackluster neutral (no options to pressure shield with, no good autocancels and all his specials are negatively disjointed, so you can always hit him before he hits you. "His so-called neutral" is basically whiff-punishing. He has to outplay in your game if he wants to push to advantage)

Gets walled out pretty hard (which is why Marth, Ike and TL are hard MUs even though they are winning or 50:50)

If camped, he can't really do much against. This is because of lack of a real approach. Everything has either too much startup, not safe on shield or gets beaten out by other hitboxes)

Underrated (in terms of how bad it is) disadvantage state (Bad air speed, no landing options and no real combo breaker makes it that Sonic is meant to be punished hard for messing up a SpinDash play. He just gets too much respect in disadvantage thanks to everyone believeing that Spring is this godlike combo breaker when it actually puts him in a worse position.)

 

[SJMistery]

While we're discussing design, here's a little exercise for you guys.

If your main is not top tier, name the smallest possible change that you can think of that would make your main top tier.

If your main is already top tier, name the smallest possible change that could potentially knock your main out of top tier.

Also explain why the change would have such a large impact on the character's relative power.

Note that I said smallest. Nothing ridiculous like "Bowser suddenly has a kill throw starting at 20!" or "Sheik no longer has Bouncing Fish!"

I'll start with Pikachu (because I'm sure someone else will do Bayonetta anyway):
increase up-air damage to 8% (from 4) with relevant knockback adjustments

Probably an obvious one. Giving Pikachu a decent aerial KO option at reasonable percents (still nothing crazy because up-air's hitbox won't permit silliness) and also a much stronger juggling tool makes his mediocre advantage state into a pretty good one, thereby patching up the character's only real flaw.

Easy: Remove between 50% and 75% of the startup lag of F-air. A faster F-air combined with the impressive recovery capabilities of Greninja that also double as excellent edge guarding and anti-edge guarding tools could mean one of the best Walls of Pain in the game and a highly improved aerial game at higher percents (Don't misunderstand, I know how good Greninja is on the aiI simply mean that D-air is not exactly the best finisher for an aerial combo, and Side-B is equally as laggy, but removing the lag on THAT one would make Greninja potentially broken. Also, my Custom Substitute, detailed repeteadly on many sites, not gonna bore all you with it again).

BONUS: A way to make it drop? Time to combine two memes.
It's the year 20XX. Greninja's hitbox is as tall as the screen. His attacks have 0 base power and base knockback and negative knockback growth. His attacks take an hour to finish and never hit due to having pixel-wide hitboxes, and Greninja self-destructsif he misses. His running speed is half of Robin's and his aerial game rivals Little Mac's, to the point Down Taunt is now his best move. And Sakura thinks that Greninja is still overpowered because of that Down Taunt.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Yes it most certainly would be but Link just has too much going against him. Of course some of these flaws can obviously be worked around.

He has a lot going against him but a lot going for him at the same time. A higher airspeed would improve a lot he has going for him and make his issues less noticeable. With his Melee airspeed he could probably chain forward airs for upwards of 70%, his recovery would actually be good, bombs would be much more threatening than they already are, and he would be able to retreat a lot easier so he can continue his zoning. He could hit high tier with just a simple air speed buff but this was for top tier right? Give him a 5 frame jumpsquat, nair, and jab 1. Now he has decent cqc, a good combo breaker, and overall decreased aerial startup. He wouldn't have any major weaknesses anymore and would still retain his strong points like grab kill confirms, powerful aerials with low landing lag, strong zoning, and good survivability. It really wouldn't be that hard to buff Link, what's hard is buffing him without making him too good

 

[|RK|]

Since Bayonetta is a hot topic as of late, I wanna let you guys know that Dabuz is going to be playing CaptainZack at Aftershock soon. While not Salem-tier, it might be interesting to see another perspective of sorts on the MU.

 

[HoSmash4]

Trouble taking the stock

Non-existent landing options

Lackluster neutral (no options to pressure shield with, no good autocancels and all his specials are negatively disjointed, so you can always hit him before he hits you. "His so-called neutral" is basically whiff-punishing. He has to outplay in your game if he wants to push to advantage)

Gets walled out pretty hard (which is why Marth, Ike and TL are hard MUs even though they are winning or 50:50)

If camped, he can't really do much against. This is because of lack of a real approach. Everything has either too much startup, not safe on shield or gets beaten out by other hitboxes)

Underrated (in terms of how bad it is) disadvantage state (Bad air speed, no landing options and no real combo breaker makes it that Sonic is meant to be punished hard for messing up a SpinDash play. He just gets too much respect in disadvantage thanks to everyone believeing that Spring is this godlike combo breaker when it actually puts him in a worse position.)

Exaggerated weaknesses imo but this is kinda on the right line

Like Sonic definitely has trouble landing but he still has:
Spin dash/Spin shot
Spring-> Dair
No aerial/Aerial mixup
Nair/bair landing mixup (multi so cant be PS'd)
Airspeed which isnt bad, 9-11th best in game

Thats still a lot to work with but I dont think the weaknesses are as big as described

 

[Ethan7]

My Smash Corner guide and Larry Lurr's opinions on Fox

 

[|RK|]

I'd like to update my previous comment - CaptainZack is up 2-0 against Dabuz.

 

[soniczx123]

Exaggerated weaknesses imo but this is kinda on the right line

Like Sonic definitely has trouble landing but he still has:
Spin dash/Spin shot
Spring-> Dair
No aerial/Aerial mixup
Nair/bair landing mixup (multi so cant be PS'd)
Airspeed which isnt bad, 9-11th best in game

Thats still a lot to work with but I dont think the weaknesses are as big as described

I think you mean fair, not nair. Nair isn't multihit. It has the sex kick property.
Yes he has top 10 air speed, but it's really slow along with one of the lowest air acceleration.

I'd like to update my previous comment - CaptainZack is up 2-0 against Dabuz.

Is there a stream??

 

[|RK|]

Is there a stream??

https://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator

CaptainZack wins 3-1, Dabuz in losers

 

[Game7a1]

Aftershock Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator Feat, Dabuz, Captain Zack, Samsoa, Cosmos, Karna, and Twi
Hero to ZeRo Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming Feat. Regi, Calculus, Aarvark, Dufaux (Shulk player), and more.
EDIT: I was too slow. Oh well.

 

[Fenny]

https://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator

CaptainZack wins 3-1, Dabuz in losers

Samsora's probably Zack's closest training partner so that must have helped him a ton.

Bayo players play with such variance at top level. Zack's neutral there was great, and he capitalised hard on Dabuz's openings. Good on him.

 

[TDK]

Zack is Really, really, really good.

 

[Nu~]

Zack dissected that matchup

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I tell ya looks to be one of the most versatile characters in this game considering none of the Many pro players maining her use that the exact same way

Dabuz was shown to be able to deal and counter Salem's Bayo at Big House..but ended up losing to Zack's more neutral focused Bayo playstyle here at aftershock

I think Bayo's success and results will only continue to rise due to her unpredictability between each main. For example just because one can adapt to the styles of Salem or Pink Fresh ..does not mean that same adaptation will work on Saj/Zack/JK or any other good pro Bayo mains out there
(edited 4 minutes ago)

 

[L9999]

On Bayo talk, I predicted that one people figured Bayo again we would all be back to lick her feet. Speaking of which, Captain Zack is demolished Cosmos right now. Bayo Fair chains are 2 good.

 

[Fenny]

Bayo's Dair is wildly strong

And it was nerfed

 

[Deleted member]

Zack is Really, really, really good.

is really, really, really good.

 

[Megamang]

Neutral focused? it just looks to me like he knows how to cover every option with bayo's stupid hitboxes.

Dabuz SDI'd out of the bayo ladder, but Zack saved a jump so jump uair killed him anyways.

I guess he is focused on neutral while he looks for a moment to pounce in and kill you.


With the fast option coverage and explosive advantage + amazing deadliness on dair/smash/WTime reads, it seems like Nairo would be insane with the witch.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Bayo's Dair is wildly strong

And it was nerfed

For ages I hardly ever used her Dair because I was used to not using stall-then-fall moves out of habit, but then when I threw it out more it was just like... wow.

Also Bayo's Uair slices through air dodges like butter, and in a game where air dodges are mostly really good, that's a pretty deadly tool to have access to.

No hyperbole, Bayonetta is genuinely one of the most fun characters to use out of any fighting game ever.

 

[JayE]

Bayo definitely looks fun to use, but I can't use her at all

 

[|RK|]

Heads up - runback time. Dabuz vs CaptainZack Grand Finals:

https://www.twitch.tv/tourneylocator

 

[L9999]

Well guys, Dabuz won already. Good stuff to Zack.

 

[|RK|]

Well guys, Dabuz won already. Good stuff to Zack.

Huh? He just reset the bracket

 

[Fenny]

Damn, Zack pressed like 101 buttons when he got that aerial Witch Time on Dabuz

 

[|RK|]

Though CaptainZack is missing a lot now... he seems tilted?

EDIT: Also, SDI is realllllyyy good against Bayonetta if you play a floaty and small character. Probably part of the difference between ZeRo SDI and, say, Dabuz.

EDIT2: Seriously, consider how he's killing Dabuz's Olimar. Witch Time, edgeguarding, and mixups.

 

[NairWizard]

I normally don't make excuses for a player by saying that they made mistakes but wow

Captain Zack missing everything in this grand finals lol

Got wrecked by Olimar

But point proven about Rosalina I think.

 

[L9999]

Huh? He just reset the bracket

That's because I know Zack will lose.

EDIT; Told you.

 

[Fenny]

He keeps Dtilting Dabuz's shield

And without fail, Dabuz punishes it over and over again

Dabuz's getting off more than he should as a result

 

[soniczx123]

Neutral focused? it just looks to me like he knows how to cover every option with bayo's stupid hitboxes.

Dabuz SDI'd out of the bayo ladder, but Zack saved a jump so jump uair killed him anyways.

I guess he is focused on neutral while he looks for a moment to pounce in and kill you.


With the fast option coverage and explosive advantage + amazing deadliness on dair/smash/WTime reads, it seems like Nairo would be insane with the witch.

He's not saving his jumps, he's using the triple jump glitch. If you use WT the first 2-3 frames after a jump, you get to keep that jump. I believe it's there for tap jump users.

 

[Sleek Media]

I like to dabble in , but I am really skeptical of her top tier status.

Anyone wanna comment on this after Dabuz was forced to rely on Olimar so much today?

 

[Das Koopa]

Dabuz 3-2 Captain Zack [GF1]
Dabuz 3-2 Captain Zack [GF2]

 

[Fenny]

That's because I know Zack will lose.

EDIT; Told you.

It was literally game 10 last hit

That Witch Time was just too short

 

[|RK|]

Wow that set was intense. Good stuff to Captain Zack and Dabuz.

GF1: 3-2 Dabuz
GF2: 3-2 Dabuz

Anyone wanna comment on this after Dabuz was forced to rely on Olimar so much today?

I think Rosa is still top tier, but the MU knowledge just isn't there for the Olimar. One of the biggest things about Olimar in the Bayo matchup is his size. I mentioned it earlier, but small, floaty characters make killing very hard for Bayo. Rosa's larger hurtbox makes it muuuch easier to chase her and hit her. It looks like Bayo just has really good tricks against Rosa, too. The Bullet Climax came in handy a lot, whereas it didn't work very well against Olimar. Doesn''t make Olimar better or Rosa worse.

Oh, Dabuz interview now.

EDIT: Whoops, double post lol

 

[Sleek Media]

I think Rosa is still top tier, but the MU knowledge just isn't there for the Olimar. One of the biggest things about Olimar in the Bayo matchup is his size. I mentioned it earlier, but small, floaty characters make killing very hard for Bayo. Rosa's larger hurtbox makes it muuuch easier to chase her and hit her. It looks like Bayo just has really good tricks against Rosa, too. The Bullet Climax came in handy a lot, whereas it didn't work very well against Olimar. Doesn''t make Olimar better or Rosa worse.

Oh, Dabuz interview now.

EDIT: Whoops, double post lol

And Peach?

 

[Ilikebugs]

Who cares if you double post in a forum?

Also what majors has bayo gotten top 8 in?

 

[L9999]

Anyone wanna comment on this after Dabuz was forced to rely on Olimar so much today?

Conspiracy theory: Dabuz is actually an Olimar main facading as a Rosa main and told everyone Olimar sucks so nobody grinds the MU. No for real, Rosa is top tier, she goes 6/4 or 7/3 against almost everyone in the cast, and her most garbage MU is an unpopular character. With Luma at her disposal she can't be anything but top tier, even with anti-Luma tech and MK.

And Peach?

She loses the MU. Rosa walls out Peach without much effort and kills her easily with Uair and Up Smash. But Peach can exploit her recovery and kill Luma with very simple interactions.

Who cares if you double post in a forum?

It's the rules.

 

[TDK]

I'd like to hear @Dabuz's opinions on this, actually. congrats to him for winning Aftershock.

 

[JayE]

The double posting thing can be annoying, sometimes I just forget that I can't post consecutively...
I just wish we could delete posts.

 

[Gunla]

The double posting thing can be annoying, sometimes I just forget that I can't post consecutively...
I just wish we could delete posts.

You can report your post and note that it was part of an accidental double post, which will alert the mods to fix the posts.