Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TheGoodGuava]

I understand that you like and I acknowledge that he is not a trash character (and most of your arguments are valid) ; my point is that if you want to do a short analysis of a character, you can't just showcase his strengths and hide his weaknesses when they clearly can be abused (he has more than what we talked about, but I'm no specialist so I'll leave that to someone more qualified).

Ikes weaknesses are mainly poor frontal coverage, high faf on his aerials, meh landing options, slow recovery, and he's easier to camp out than some other characters. Characters like Sheik who can abuse all of those things at the same time give him a lot of trouble
Tbh I sort of hate Ike, playing him with any of my main is stressful as hell. I just realized that if he can give that many high/top tiers trouble his placement can't be true

 

[kynlem]

I feel like Peach is high tier at this point. Low high tier, but she is certainly better than the other mid tiers, such as Pit.

 

[Deleted member]

I feel like Peach is high tier at this point. Low high tier, but she is certainly better than the other mid tiers, such as Pit.

What justifies Peach being high tier at all?

 

[Mega-Spider]

I'd say Peach is more high mid-tier rather than high tier. If Peach ever does become high tier, it'd be low high tier at best.

 

[SJMistery]

When it comes to DLC, it kinda seems like Diddy is the only character that actually beats all of them.

Well, Grenija has even or 55-45 in favor matchups on all of them. Does that count?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Smash 4 Peach is the middest of mid tier in the history of mid tiers.

 

[Illusion.]

Well, Grenija has even or 55-45 in favor matchups on all of them. Does that count?

No he does not.

 

[Y2Kay]

are all considered even for the most part.

mains can argue with me if they want. That match up is even.

 

[Illuminose]

some says greninja loses to both cloud and mewtwo. oiisitofu also says this. I trust their opinions a lot more than any other greninja. both of them agree that bayo is even and oisiitofu beat 9b at the same tournament where 9b beat komo, so...I'm probably inclined to agree.

diddy doesn't beat bayo or cloud.

 

[Deleted member]

some says greninja loses to both cloud and mewtwo. oiisitofu also says this. I trust their opinions a lot more than any other greninja. both of them agree that bayo is even and oisiitofu beat 9b at the same tournament where 9b beat komo, so...I'm probably inclined to agree.

diddy doesn't beat bayo or cloud.

Not even iStudying, Elexaio or Venia?

 

[Y2Kay]

Well abadango and WaDi both agree that Greninja goes even with Mewtwo, so you can pick and choose who you believe.

Some's Cloud opinion is completely outlandish and is somewhat contrary to our recent results against.

 

[Illusion.]

In terms of DLC, I think is a losing MU, I'm still unsure, but I learn more towards losing.

and I believe are even. is probably even also, though much harder than the other two.

and I think is a win.

 

[Y2Kay]

Darkaura has beaten Deathhorse twice, iStudying is tied in sets with Rich, Some beat Abadango, and Venia has beaten WaDi.

I don't think Mewtwo is a losing match up for us anymore.

 

[Nah]

I would think that Greninja would have a slight advantage against Corrin and Ryu really. Neither character can force you to approach, and neither has the mobility to chase people down. Meanwhile Greninja is one of the most mobile characters in the game and is equipped with a solid projectile. Play keepaway and you should be fine, yeah?

 

[Y2Kay]

I would think that Greninja would have a slight advantage against Corrin and Ryu really. Neither character can force you to approach, and neither has the mobility to chase people down. Meanwhile Greninja is one of the most mobile characters in the game and is equipped with a solid projectile. Play keepaway and you should be fine, yeah?

Pretty much yeah. Venia lost to Ryuga at SSC but besides that, he beats Numbers' secondary Corrin consistently. Greninja has a positive record against Ryu mains, even though the data pool is limited.

Venia is known for his aggression though, maybe that's why?

 

[Galaxeon]

As far as DLC match-ups go, I think beats . And possibly (I think the community voted this match-up a disadvantage for us, but I disagree, it's even at worst). However I don't see us winning against or. Both of these feel very hard. I think top players maining other characters sometimes overrate Greninja because they see it as a "weird but scary" character and don't always have a lot of experience. I can see Mewtwo being more even though.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So why do think they go even or even lose to now? I remeber a while ag people saying that Greninja had some sort of tech to help escape Bayo combos and that Gren did well in the MU and this was pre-Patched Bayo combos!

 

[Illusion.]

Some beat Abadango

Game 1 Aba died at 47% to the most unexpected stage-spike Uair possible, game 2 Aba did one of the most unsafe rolls I've ever seen (literally rolled into Some) and died to Dtilt > Usmash at 74% due to rage.

Aba got straight-up robbed game 1 and just made an awful play game 2, let's be real. Don't know if you saw the set, but Some was actually getting bodied. A win is a win, but you have to look at the details of the set rather than just the outcome: in this case, Some was handily losing then got a comeback off of something random, and a really bad play + rage.

I would gladly go into the theory for this MU, but this is the CCI, not the Greninja MU thread.

 

[Galaxeon]

So why do think they go even or even lose to now? I remeber a while ag people saying that Greninja had some sort of tech to help escape Bayo combos and that Gren did well in the MU and this was pre-Patched Bayo combos!

Yeah there is a tech to do some junk stuff on Bayonetta's combos (especially against Witch Twist) but that's the thing : pre-patch Bayos focused way more on these absurd combos and the buff actually helped players to be more inventive.

Also the tech in question, Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancelling, was already and is still not safe at all, and can be predicted and punished very hard. So it worked/works but isn't a broken thing neutralizing Bayo's combos or anything. The MU now depends much more on neutral and offstage game, and there's still no consensus on that I think.

 

[Kofu]

Ikes weaknesses are mainly poor frontal coverage, high faf on his aerials, meh landing options, slow recovery, and he's easier to camp out than some other characters. Characters like Sheik who can abuse all of those things at the same time give him a lot of trouble
Tbh I sort of hate Ike, playing him with any of my main is stressful as hell. I just realized that if he can give that many high/top tiers trouble his placement can't be true

Can you explain "poor frontal coverage" to me? I have a hard time seeing how he has poor frontal coverage when his FAir is massive, does 13%, autocancels, and kills.

 

[Das Koopa]

Can you explain "poor frontal coverage" to me? I have a hard time seeing how he has poor frontal coverage when his FAir is massive, does 13%, autocancels, and kills.

It's one move tho

 

[I speak Spanish too]

It's kinda sad that this is a trend in the community, but if you make a claim please back it up at least substantially. This isn't twitter.

 

[Y2Kay]

Game 1 Aba died at 47% to the most unexpected stage-spike Uair possible, game 2 Aba did one of the most unsafe rolls I've ever seen (literally rolled into Some) and died to Dtilt > Usmash at 74% due to rage.

Aba got straight-up robbed game 1 and just made an awful play game 2, let's be real. Don't know if you saw the set, but Some was actually getting bodied. A win is a win, but you have to look at the details of the set rather than just the outcome: in this case, Some was handily losing then got a comeback off of something random, and a really bad play + rage.

I would gladly go into the theory for this MU, but this is the CCI, not the Greninja MU thread.

that set was hella whack, but a win is a win so I listed it. And unsafe rolls has always been Abadango's thing lol.

And that set is not the only example of the MU anyway.

 

[FullMoon]

Personally based on my own experiences I think we lose to Cloud and I actually find Corrin a potentially bad MU as well. I think Mewtwo, Bayo, Ryu are even and I can see Lucas and Roy as winning MUs but I don't think we beat the former too hard.

So in other words Greninja's DLC MUs are a mess.

 

[predator_21476]

Can you explain "poor frontal coverage" to me? I have a hard time seeing how he has poor frontal coverage when his FAir is massive, does 13%, autocancels, and kills.

In the air he has to wait around 15 frames until he can get a hitbox in front of him. This allows many moves to hit from the front before his forward air is a threat. It makes his frontal coverage not great regardless of how massive and powerful his hitboxes are.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Not saying a WORD about the greninja matchup because I've played greninja players and beat them but that on FDFG which doesn't give an accurate assessment of how he can move and I main a character with a small playerbase so there's that.
I DO know that when I use zard's rock smash most of greninja's moves are super armored and a shielded water shurikan doesn't make zard move much but those were straight up amateurs so I can't really say where it falls under and we have a LOT of greninja lovers here....

 

[Y2Kay]

I actually cited Charizard as our toughest low tier opponent. I wouldn't be suprised if you did well.

 

[Radical Larry]

Why [I believe] Peach isn't anything but a middle or upper middle tier is simple:
-Peach has one of the absolute worst vertical disadvantaged states in the game. Not a single attack she has in her aerial arsenal is capable of fending against most aerials, her fall speed and fast fall speed are very poor [second slowest in the game] and her float can only save her for so long.
-Speaking of disadvantaged states, while Peach has one of the better recoveries in the game and can easily avoid most edge-guarding attempts with her float, that can all go so far against various opponents, and when people catch on to your tricks, you suddenly don't have a good off-stage disadvantaged states anymore.
-When above or near an opponent, Peach basically relies on reads whenever she uses her floating, and if an opponent just stays away from her or has any longer-reaching attack, she can't really do all that much.
-Peach has an extremely tough time dealing with disjointed hitboxes or very amazing projectiles [Lucas's Side Special, Link's Projectiles or Villager's Forward and Back Aerials], and also has a very tough time dealing with attacks that are significantly faster than her.
-Swords in general.

I will state that Peach does have some very good boons to her [that we already obviously know], but I'm not going to talk about them [because it's a redundant discussion topic]. While my full knowledge is limited, I can understand that Peach would have a tougher time since she's more of a character who's usable up close for heavy pressure or reads. Peach doesn't do well against an opponent who can keep her up in the air or has a high amount of good disjoints and projectiles.

Peach is good, but [in my opinion] has counters that don't make her go further up.

 

[FullMoon]

Charizard actually does well against Greninja and I find him the hardest of the superheavies to fight. Still even at worst for the frog but I do find him harder than DK and Bowser if that means anything.

Is there even any videos of high level matches between the two? I don't think I've ever seen one.

 

[Y2Kay]

Charizard actually does well against Greninja and I find him the hardest of the superheavies to fight. Still even at worst for the frog but I do find him harder than DK and Bowser if that means anything.

Is there even any videos of high level matches between the two? I don't think I've ever seen one.

Keekay is a pretty good Greninja in the Dominican Republic and he loses to Sharpy plenty of times, though their sets are usually close.

 

[Aaron1997]

Pac-man Discord community match-up Chart.

I don't agree with Falco being bad for Pac. Yes Shine Rekts a lot of Pac's stuff but if he doesn't get a lead, its hard for him to comeback.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

and I think is a win.

Do you have some practical experience against Lucas by any chance?

Because from what I've gathered most people don't and just assume they win because Lucas isn't a well known character. I, for one, have a rather high opinion of Lucas and I'm always sceptical when somebody claims he loses matchups outside of Sheik, Diddy, Cloud and Sonic.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Wintermelon43 - What was that you said about Marth having a big disadvantage against Pac-Man?

View attachment 120937

Admittedly, I think it could either be 40-60 or 45-55. Pac-Man doesn't win, that's for sure.

---

Though I agree with Aaron1997 on Falco. I mean, I don't use either character, but I can't see Shine being a sole reason why the MU is bad. Falco can't really approach too safely, and this just appears to give Pac-Man a nicer time in choosing the correct projectile he may need.

I'm more interested about Robin. What does Pac-Man do that makes life for Robin hard? I'd have said that the MU would have been the other way around, or even at worst.

 

[Y2Kay]

Do you have some practical experience against Lucas by any chance?

Because from what I've gathered most people don't and just assume they win because Lucas isn't a well known character. I, for one, have a rather high opinion of Lucas and I'm always sceptical when somebody claims he loses matchups outside of Sheik, Diddy, Cloud and Sonic.

Gren is considered by A LOT of Lucas mains to be one of his worst match ups in the game.

Greninja never has to approach Lucas. Shurikens cannot be absorbed and outrange all of Lucas' zoning tools. Combine that with his worse mobility and and vulnerable recovery outside of tether, and I'm not suprised Lucas mains hate it.

My only "good" experiences against Lucas where my laggy friendlies with Luco and that's about it.

 

[Aaron1997]

Bowserboy3 In my opinion, Robin either beats Pac Slightly or goes even. I think its because other Pac's think that Pac's far better mobility is what makes the difference. Also Pac destroys Robin offstage but who doesn't? Arch Fire is almost Useless vs Pac because either most of Pac's fruits beat and hit Robin or Pac can Side-B the Arch-fire and all of Robin's other projectile other than Thorin and heal from it. What I mean by Almost is that Robin can use it when Pac is in Disadvantage. Robin's Leffin Sword is a huge problem for Pac. All of his aerials 1 shot the Hydrant as long they are not stale and Checkmates are what Pac's fear most (Easy early kill confirms).

 

[Wintermelon43]

Wintermelon43 - What was that you said about Marth having a big disadvantage against Pac-Man?



Admittedly, I think it could either be 40-60 or 45-55. Pac-Man doesn't win, that's for sure.

---

Though I agree with Aaron1997 on Falco. I mean, I don't use either character, but I can't see Shine being a sole reason why the MU is bad. Falco can't really approach too safely, and this just appears to give Pac-Man a nicer time in choosing the correct projectile he may need.

I'm more interested about Robin. What does Pac-Man do that makes life for Robin hard? I'd have said that the MU would have been the other way around, or even at worst.

He does. Marth has no good options aganist Pac's projectiles.

View attachment 120937


Pac-man Discord community match-up Chart.

I don't agree with Falco being bad for Pac. Yes Shine Rekts a lot of Pac's stuff but if he doesn't get a lead, its hard for him to comeback.

I feel like this is happening with a lot of discords now. People are saying their character loses to Falco because his shine blocks their projectiles. The Mewtwo discord is notorious for this.

 

[Y2Kay]

The Mewtwo Discord of old had a civil war that led to the eventual destruction of the place.

The new Mewtwo discord isn't too bad.

 

[Bowserboy3]

He does. Marth has no good options aganist Pac's projectiles

Oh yeah, it's not like he has a huge sword that just straight up cancels out his projectiles or anything...

It's not even like he doesn't have good quick, safe options to do this; Jab and Ftilt are all he needs.

As well as when Marth is playing at the midrange, it becomes too hard for Pac-Man to pull up/charge a projectile due to Marth having the bigger presence at mid range due to Pac-Man leaving himself wide open; it becomes too risky. That and Marth having tipper reward at said range.

On top of that, while Pac-Man is pressured into not using his projectiles, he doesn't have any disjoints, and has overall poor range, and can't contest with Marth's sword there.

It's not a fun MU for Pac-Man.

 

[Illusion.]

Do you have some practical experience against Lucas by any chance?

Yeah, Hakii is a friend of mine. He's played me and P2P with Gibus and lost to us both.

When I asked him about the MU, he said he thinks Greninja has a slight advantage, and now I'm seeing other Lucas mains (Kodystri, JeBB) also say the same.

 

[TDK]

He does. Marth has no good options aganist Pac's projectiles.

According to you, Marth has no good options for anything. What makes you say a giant sword that beats projectiles doesn't work for beating projectiles?