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Official 4BR Tier List v2.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Megamang

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You dont see any other hits in the video. it might just be a hoax with the knockback set as low as possible.

@Wintermelon43

So it goes to Regi and not Wrath?
 
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D

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TLTC :4palutena: beats Aarvark :4morton: :4rob: :4villager: 6-4 over 2 sets to win Hero to ZeRo and gives his plane ticket to Regi since he's already attending.

Good :4gaw: play incoming?
Waaaaaaay late.

Dufaux:4shulk:also got 3rd solo at said tournament. Doesn't mean much at all since it's of course wifi, but it's cool. Sucks he's not gonna be able to go..
 
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Yikarur

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1st: pM | LoNgOuw :4rob:
2nd: Biggad :4corrin:
3rd: Wolves.wusi :4fox:
4th place: Light :4sheik:
5th place tie: Euk :4sheik:
RobinGG :4peach:

7th place tie: Wolves.KunaiKazeKun :4tlink:
Purple~H :4cloud:

9th place tie: pM | cyve :4bayonetta: :4diddy:
BluB :4bayonetta:
Tomenino :4corrin: :4cloud:
Schligger :4mewtwo:

13th place tie: Flint :4myfriends:
Lauin :4mewtwo:
Wolves.Yoh :4myfriends:
Semifer :4mewtwo:


Another german 2 Stock tournament with very variational results.
Flint and Kunai beat cyve. cyves first time not receiving payout in a german tournament.
Jband lost to Biggad and he had to face cyve for 17th place.
Longouws dthrow upair too consistent[/B]

Das Koopa Das Koopa ~90 entrants
Vods are on twitch.tv/tadavidID

 

The-Technique

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So...? Your skill still applies an ample amount, otherwise we'd see a random no name Little Mac take first place at the qualifier rather than a Palutena of all people, a character that thrives on reacting to moves and punishing mistakes.
 
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TDK

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it's a lot different playing in your own house than playing in an unfamiliar room full of people who are yelling things at you.
 

Das Koopa

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Stuff I have pinned for November's first two weekends:

S@X November 1st 2016 (November 1st) (MD/VA) (103 Entrants) (Category 1)
Waseda Festival 2016 (November 5th) (Japan) (128 Entrants) (Category 1)
Midwest Mayhem 5 (November 5th) (Midwest) (211 Entrants) (Category 2)
Aftershock 2016 Circuit Finale (November 5th-6th) (South) (122 Entrants) (Category 1)


GUTS 4 (November 11th-13th) (New England) (129 Entrants) (Category 1)
DAT Blastzone 16 (November 12th) (United Kingdom) (88 Entrants) (Category 1)
eXposed (November 12th) (Midwest) (91 Entrants) (Category 1)
SuperSmashNest v12 (November 12th) (Pacific Northwest) (84 Entrants) (Category 1)
*Tritown Throwdown 2 (November 12th) (Pacific Northwest) (94 Entrants) (Category 1)
LanDiego State 6 (November 12th) (Southern California) (95 Entrants) (Category 1)
Agon – New Era (November 13th) (Germany) (90 Entrants) (Category 1)

*May be discarded

Wastebin: (Tournaments that reach minimum 80 player threshold but have other disqualifying factors)
GatorLAN (No information on characters used, no VODs for clarification)
Smash the Labs #2 (Unknown bracket, VODs, etc...)

I'll look into the top 16s after I'm done with the October stuff
 
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Rizen

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So...? Your skill still applies an ample amount, otherwise we'd see a random no name Little Mac take first place at the qualifier rather than a Palutena of all people, a character that thrives on reacting to moves and punishing mistakes.
That's true but you have to take wifi with a grain of salt, at best. It takes skill to play pool on a boat but the waves will always interfere even when the sea is calm. That's why serious pool tournaments aren't held on boats*.


*I mean without gyroscopic stabilizers.
 

TheGoodGuava

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That's true but you have to take wifi with a grain of salt, at best. It takes skill to play pool on a boat but the waves will always interfere even when the sea is calm. That's why serious pool tournaments aren't held on boats*.


*I mean without gyroscopic stabilizers.
If only we could get gyroscopic stabilizers for wifi, or you know, a better netcode
Maybe well see it on the Switch, if we don't there's really no reason to buy it tbh
 

Daymaster

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If only we could get gyroscopic stabilizers for wifi, or you know, a better netcode
Maybe well see it on the Switch, if we don't there's really no reason to buy it tbh
Unless it has all the DLC or is an enhanced port with more stages/characters, like the rumors have been saying.
Also, why does everyone think that Roy is bottom 5? He's bad but at least he has movement, unlike the rest of the awful characters.
 

Envoy of Chaos

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Roy is generally considered bad because his really bad disadvantage state. He gets combo'd hard and has trouble making it back to stage with his bad recovery options. While he is fast on stage and has a good Dash Dance he still has issues getting in through projectile walls. Now he does have a great combo game and can apply heavy pressure but he has few set ups to score kills and relies on hard reads to get them often. He can't go very far off stage since he falls like a rock and doesn't jump very high so it's easy to make it back to stage against him as well.

I don't think he's bottom five he's got a lot good going for him but I can see why people think he's terrible. Watching Roy trying to fight a character with crazy advantage like Bayo or ZSS is painful.
 

The-Technique

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Roy is nowhere near bottom 5, that's ludicrous. He plays a lot like Falcon and can bait and punish in a similar fashion thanks to his great run speed and dash dance. Also his punish game is crazy good, one mis-spaced move and he can KO you near the ledge at 50%, without the burden of having to space like Marth.

But like Falcon his disadvantage is horrendous. I don't think his ability to KO is an issue though, for example at 100-110% Roy can KO with Blazer the instant the opponent commits to an aerial attack, thanks to the grounded frame 4 super armor on startup. He also has n-air > u-tilt, n-air > f-tilt, or jab > f-air depending on DI.
 

L9999

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Roy is nowhere near bottom 5, that's ludicrous. He plays a lot like Falcon and can bait and punish in a similar fashion thanks to his great run speed and dash dance. Also his punish game is crazy good, one mis-spaced move and he can KO you near the ledge at 50%, without the burden of having to space like Marth.

But like Falcon his disadvantage is horrendous. I don't think his ability to KO is an issue though, for example at 100-110% Roy can KO with Blazer the instant the opponent commits to an aerial attack, thanks to the grounded frame 4 super armor on startup. He also has n-air > u-tilt, n-air > f-tilt, or jab > f-air depending on DI.
Blazer is too risky to be a kill move. Getting the kill hitbox is weird as well.
 
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Megamang

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Because it is OoS, you can kind of confirm blazer. At least, you can wait to use it until your odds are very good.

Or throw it out raw on a hunch. Both work.


But he has other kill options as well. Hilt hits kill with tons of his kit, I wont list it out... I will add that Counter is an unorthodox kill move, which is actually good vs characters which have strong killing aerials.

Greninja is especially vulnerable. Corrin is a pain for this reason.

---

I was watching MKLeo vs Chag, and he kept dthrowing Chag's bayo and either usmashing to catch the airdodge, or bair/fair/uair-ing him... does Marth have a 50/50 on bayo due to her slow DJ? Does anyone else besides shiek? itd be hella good foresight/balancing if they gave her bad grab combo escape since she has better disadvantage in most situations.
 
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The-Technique

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Blazer is too risky to be a kill move. Getting the kill hitbox is weird as well.
Well you don't wanna throw it out at random of course, if your opponent is in the air that's when you prepare to Blazer.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Blazer is weak when used in the air but crazy strong when used from the ground. If you're buffering it correctly it should always KO when it needs to.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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Well you don't wanna throw it out at random of course, if your opponent is in the air that's when you prepare to Blazer.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Blazer is weak when used in the air but crazy strong when used from the ground. If you're buffering it correctly it should always KO when it needs to.
Ok but why would you be jumping in on Roy in the first place? That's what made people think fsmash was broken on release lmao
Roy is bad because he doesn't have options. His neutral is extremely linear and easy to beat with patience and when he loses the neutral it all just goes downhill from there. his only saving grace is his mobility (people gotta learn how to step dash out of PP/EDD for real) and his advantage state which is still outclassed by every top tier, most high tiers, and a few mid tiers.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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Roy is preeeeeeeeety bad.

But his up B and side B are also kind of busted so he can still be preeeeeeeeeeeety dangerous.

:059:
 

The-Technique

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Ok but why would you be jumping in on Roy in the first place? That's what made people think fsmash was broken on release lmao
Roy is bad because he doesn't have options. His neutral is extremely linear and easy to beat with patience and when he loses the neutral it all just goes downhill from there. his only saving grace is his mobility (people gotta learn how to step dash out of PP/EDD for real) and his advantage state which is still outclassed by every top tier, most high tiers, and a few mid tiers.
Oh so the opponent wants to stay grounded? Excellent, now they get to deal with Roy's jab, side B, short hop n-airs that can confirm into KOs and his 50/50 grab followups that force them into the air anyway. And Blazer still eats most moves on reaction since super armor lasts frames 4-10.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Roy is good but he's got options, dude.
 
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What makes Roy's side B busted?

:4marth:and :4lucina: have strictly better Dancing Blades. DED is a good button but I'm not sure what makes it so excellent.
 

Bowserboy3

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Double Edge Dance is still a great move. A does have a couple of advantages it has over Dancing Blade:

  • It's designed to link better; the sourspots have angles that drag the opponent closer to the sweetspot. Dancing Blade does not do this.
  • Due to this above point, it on average deals around 1-2% more than Marth's Dancing Blade (not Lucina's due to her's not having a sourspot altogether).
  • Roy's faster dash speed means he can often punish things a little bit easier than the other two.
However, Dancing Blade still has it's own advantages:

  • Both variants of Dancing Blade still have better KO potential; Marth's when tippered KO's noticablely earlier than all three, while the sourspot only KO's slightly later than Roy's sweetspot, and Lucina's can still KO earlier than Roy's sweetspot (though be mindful that Dancing Blade can fail to link when Roy's could potentially).
  • Each individual hit of both Dancing Blades deal more damage than Roy's (however, this is compensated by the fact that Roy lands his sweetspot a hell of a lot easier).
Overall, Roy's is easier and is by far the most reliable to use due to how it works and his speed, Lucina's is the most damaging, and Marth's overall has the best KO potential (yes, it's not rare/uncommon to tipper the fourth hits, and there are setups into it, and you sometimes just need to time the hits. One of my favourites is the 3rd down hit links perfectly into the tipper 4th hit at around 50%-80% due to the 3rd down hit's angle).

On paper, Roy's is better. However, I value the KO potential of the move most, so I prefer Marth's. It just depends what the player prefers most. Each version has it's own unique thing to shout about.

What is true about them all though, is that they are arguably the best burst punish tool in the game.
 
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Bowserboy3

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What does this mean? Please elaborate.
A burst option. When you hear somebody say "I use a burst option as a punish", you think of a Sheik doing a buffered Dash Attack as she drops her shield. Essentially, a quick, easy to use punish option. Sheik's Dash Attack, Samus's Dash Attack etc are good examples.

Dancing Blade fits into this too.
 

Jamurai

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A burst option. When you hear somebody say "I use a burst option as a punish", you think of a Sheik doing a buffered Dash Attack as she drops her shield. Essentially, a quick, easy to use punish option. Sheik's Dash Attack, Samus's Dash Attack etc are good examples.

Dancing Blade fits into this too.
Aight I worded that badly. I mean, I know what a burst mobility option is. I just don't see how DB fits in. Yeah it's a fast multihit with high damage, and it can be used out of a dash... but surely it's not used in the same way as dedicated burst options like Falcon's dash grab, or Samus/Pit/MK dash attack. Dash > DB doesn't cover the same amount of distance in anywhere near the same amount of time, and it's beaten in reward by 3/4 of those examples.

Like I get that it could be used as such an option in some situations, but it doesn't compare with dedicated burst mobility moves. It is a strong and versatile punish tool overall, however. I could be seen as nitpicky but when discussing a character's tools it doesn't help to embellish them with titles like Best Burst Option Ever without thinking it through.
 

LancerStaff

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I'd hesitate to call Roy's mobility that impressive.

He has a good run speed and extended dash dance but his walk has an acceleration of 0 (same issue every swordfighter has bar :4link::4tlink: for whatever reason) and he has one of the worst air accelerations in the game. It seriously hurts his stringing potential and gives him pretty bad air physics (poor air drift) in combination with his high fall speed. He also doesn't have much in way of mixing up his approaches, from what I can see.
Pits have actual walking acceleration too. IIRC it's tied for second place with the majority of the cast and then the Pits have 16th best top walking speed. Makes every other swordsman feel sluggish as **** in comparison.
 

Bowserboy3

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Aight I worded that badly. I mean, I know what a burst mobility option is. I just don't see how DB fits in. Yeah it's a fast multihit with high damage, and it can be used out of a dash... but surely it's not used in the same way as dedicated burst options like Falcon's dash grab, or Samus/Pit/MK dash attack. Dash > DB doesn't cover the same amount of distance in anywhere near the same amount of time, and it's beaten in reward by 3/4 of those examples.

Like I get that it could be used as such an option in some situations, but it doesn't compare with dedicated burst mobility moves. It is a strong and versatile punish tool overall, however. I could be seen as nitpicky but when discussing a character's tools it doesn't help to embellish them with titles like Best Burst Option Ever without thinking it through.
Perhaps "burst" is the wrong phrase to use. A better way to describe it would be a move that you can use to punish almost anything you like reliably, and deal solid damage. Not many other strictly quick punishing moves solidly work as moves that deal respectable damage and function as KO moves too.

They're essentially moves that you can use if you're lazy. Lets say somebody does an unsafe move on your shield. You could grab them and set them up for a combo, or you could start an Up Tilt combo into juggle. Or, you could just use Dancing Blade which works just as well.

It's that reliable, lazy option essentially. Dash Attacks omitted, it's got the bonus of being able to be used out of a dash.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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On paper, Roy's is better. However, I value the KO potential of the move most, so I prefer Marth's. It just depends what the player prefers most. Each version has it's own unique thing to shout about.
I'm pretty sure that on average DED gets more kills than Marth's DB by a solid margin actually.

:059:
 

Bowserboy3

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I'm pretty sure that on average DED gets more kills than Marth's DB by a solid margin actually.

:059:
Not really. All of Marth's tipper hits have much more launching power than Roy's DED.

Roy's DED is designed to link consistently; this is why his sourspots drag opponents closer to the sweetspot. To compensate for this, it has lower damage, and thus, launching power.

Roy's DED gets KO potential approximately 15% later than when Marth's can KO. What's more, Marth does easy setups into his tipper (it's amazing how much people overlook down 3 into neutral 4).

On a somewhat related note, something else I find is overlooked is how using it at the ledge extremely benefits Marth's tipper mechanic. Essentially, when doing Dancing Blade or DED, each swing makes the character take a step forward. This essentially means Marth will likely not be landing his tipper finishing variants until around mid percents onwards due to knockback growth etc (this is why the 3rd down hit links perfectly into the 4th neutral finisher, as the knockback is enough to launch into that area). Using it near or at the ledge helps this in more situations than you'd think, as the ledge is essentially a stop point for Marth; he can continue using the move, but he won't go any further forward. This allows him to tipper his finishing hits easier than before, and this is only made better by the fact that they can KO at this range.

This is a good example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFS59DgNvSs&t=9m34s

Had Marth had more space to step forward, he would have landed his sourspot, and it wouldn't have KO'd. Marth had nowhere to step, and this benefitted him a lot.

In the situation he had more room to step forward, the upwards finisher would have likely tippered at that percent. Not sure it would have quite KO'd, mind - perhaps 10-15% more and it should.

I also want to continue on and say that neither Dancing Blade OR Double Edge Dance are "busted" in this game. Smash 4 has struck a fine balance with these moves. The moves link consistently, and have use in each character's moveset, but also aren't incredibly stupid by design. Brawl's Dancing Blade was what I would call closer to "busted"; a frame 4 move that linked incredibly well even up to 150%+, and had KO power on both sweet and sourspots at percent ranges that didn't make sense.

---
Another misc thing, totally not related I want to mention, is that Mr E only got that last KO as he did because of how ZSS'd dash attack extends her leg behind her (check 13:21). Had Mr E been a frame or two later, her leg would have not been stretched out as far, and the Fsmash would have whiffed. I love analysing things like this.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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Not really. All of Marth's tipper hits have much more launching power than Roy's DED.
But they're also considerably less likely to land. The move's forward motion makes it hard to land a sweetspot finisher with Marth, whereas for Roy it keeps the opponent close to the sweetspot consistently. Roy killing his opponent with a DED-sweetspot is not that rare a sight compared to a clean DB-kill from Marth, which is a pretty specific and uncommon occurence.

Edit: Basically, DED vs DB is the one instance where Roy's sweetspot placement is actually more functional than Marth's whose DB iteration is somewhat undertuned compared to Brawl.

:059:
 
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Bowserboy3

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But they're also considerably less likely to land. The move's forward motion makes it hard to land a sweetspot finisher with Marth, whereas for Roy it keeps the opponent close to the sweetspot consistently. Roy killing his opponent with a DED-sweetspot is not that rare a sight compared to a clean DB-kill from Marth, which is a pretty specific and uncommon occurence.

Edit: Basically, DED vs DB is the one instance where Roy's sweetspot placement is actually more functional than Marth's whose DB iteration is somewhat undertuned compared to Brawl.

:059:
I understand your points here, and that's completely fine.

However, remember that the tipper is bigger than you think it is; it's essentially the whole top half of the blade. Essentially, it's not small, and the likelihood of landing it certainly isn't small either.

The parts that are considerably less likely to land tippers are the first 3 strikes. This is where Roy's has a noticeable advantage, due to how it's designed. However, the knockback of the 3rd hits of Dancing Blade are pretty much designed to knock opponents into the tipper hits at higher percents.

The main reason why it appears inconsistent is because it requires more timing than Roy's (who's angles do all the work for him). As long as it's not literally spammed as fast as possible and the 4th hit is timed, it's perfectly normal for the move to tipper.

I suppose it's easy for me to just say these things about the move; I main Marth, so I understand the move pretty well, so hopefully I'm not coming across as arrogant or argumentative (that's not the intention, I hope that I didn't come across like that).

Basically, the main advantage Roy's has is that it's specifically designed to hit the sweetspot. It's just a hell of a lot easier to use, in contrast to Marth's, who's requires a tiny bit more thinking, and has better reward for doing so.

I'm not saying you specifically are, but don't undersell Dancing Blade; the tipper is not small, and it gets tippers far more often than assumed. Just remember that KBG of the 3rd hits helps push opponents into the tipper area for the 4th hits at higher percent.

But yes, Smash 4's Dancing Blade is a lot different to Brawl's. In a phrase, it's a lot less dumb. Still far superior to Melee's, but not as stupid as it was in Brawl.
 
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TheGoodGuava

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Oh so the opponent wants to stay grounded? Excellent, now they get to deal with Roy's jab, side B, short hop n-airs that can confirm into KOs and his 50/50 grab followups that force them into the air anyway. And Blazer still eats most moves on reaction since super armor lasts frames 4-10.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Roy is good but he's got options, dude.
Except you have absolutely no reason to approach Roy in the first place and his grounded moveset ruined by any projectile or bigger disjoint
 
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D

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Roy has isolated good moves but they all don't come together for that functional of a gameplan. Nair, DED and jab are all very integral buttons (nair1 confirms are pretty scary) but the character's conversions only really make way once you make a mistake. He's kinda like :4zelda: in a way where he has explosive reward in advantage but most people have the mindset to approach them when they have absolutely no reason to do so then die for it even though they can't touch you most of the time if you play noncommittal.


This set is what is an important example talking about.
 

TTTTTsd

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Roy's stuff flows and links well together on hit in the form of really, really good low% strings and confirms that start to ebb away at high %. He lacks a strong, reliable finisher that's easy to trap with, which is something Marth doesn't lack. If Roy had killing aerials that weren't Bair he'd be genuinely VASTLY better (if Fair killed even slightly later than Marth's god he'd be so good)

He also has something Marth does not in the form of really strong confirms off of a rising aerial at low %, Rising Fair sweetspot leads into Double Edge Dance or Blazer which is a LOT of damage (this technique abuses the FAF on his Fair).

His low% game isn't airtight but it's really quite functional. His high % game is where that functionality wavers, alongside his susceptible recovery and vulnerability to combos.
 

The-Technique

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Except you have absolutely no reason to approach Roy in the first place and his grounded moveset ruined by any projectile or bigger disjoint
It's not that simple. Look here:

Abadango plays exactly how you describe, being patient and forcing Roy to approach. Yet failed to take a single game as Mewtwo and forced to pick Rosalina to win the set, and even still played a last hit last stock on game 5.
Roy has isolated good moves but they all don't come together for that functional of a gameplan. Nair, DED and jab are all very integral buttons (nair1 confirms are pretty scary) but the character's conversions only really make way once you make a mistake. He's kinda like :4zelda: in a way where he has explosive reward in advantage but most people have the mindset to approach them when they have absolutely no reason to do so then die for it even though they can't touch you most of the time if you play noncommittal.


This set is what is an important example talking about.
This is more of a case of Mew2King having god-like reads and conditioning combined with using a really good character. Even despite the disastrous first stock, Ryo took Cloud from 8 to 52% from a single combo, that's what I mean when I say his punish game is really good.

But I do understand the Zelda comparison, and again I'm not saying Roy is good, just that he isn't as easy to figure out as people think he is.
 
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It's not that simple. Look here:

Abadango plays exactly how you describe, being patient and forcing Roy to approach. Yet failed to take a single game as Mewtwo and forced to pick Rosalina to win the set, and even still played a last hit last stock on game 5.


This is more of a case of Mew2King having god-like reads and conditioning combined with using a really good character. Even despite the disastrous first stock, Ryo took Cloud from 8 to 52% from a single combo, that's what I mean when I say his punish game is really good.

But I do understand the Zelda comparison, and again I'm not saying Roy is good, just that he isn't as easy to figure out as people think he is.
Considering Abadango has had practically zero Roy experience beforehand, using that set as an example is pretty disingenuous.

Roy's punish game is good, and if you sleep on him (or any low/bottom tier) you'll get rocked. Besides that I don't think this character has anywhere to go in this meta especially if people figure out the matchup better. I showed that set specifically since many seem to think Roy/Cloud is an even MU after that one set Spark had against ANTi at Shine.
 

SaltyKracka

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Idle thought time, my friends. What is the simplest change you think you could make that would introduce the greatest amount of balance?

Now I'm the one who's been thinking about this, so here's mine.

Ignoring the inevitable idiot howls of 'homogenization', I would set every character to have a frame 5 jump squat.
 

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What makes Roy's side B busted?

:4marth:and :4lucina: have strictly better Dancing Blades. DED is a good button but I'm not sure what makes it so excellent.
You comparing a great move to a good move.

Just because one move is awesome doesn't mean the slightly worse version is absolute worthless trash.
 
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