Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Jona Bon Boa]

So 2GG anounced the line up for the Socal/ Mexico crew battle taking place in Mexico Saga on Saturday

 

[warionumbah2]

No serge, no leo, no wonf, no regi.

Whats the point of this crew battle, the mexico team is more gimped than the G3 team.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Legit question: Everyone keeps saying Cloud forces opponents to approach because he's charging limit.
But if the charge is complete, what is his plan now?



EDIT: The Mexico saga schedule was rushed, and we all know how difficult it is to get a VISA. A lot of the mexican attendees are from Tijuana.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

once he gets limit it doesnt matter because he becomes sword yoshi

i haven't heard of 4 of the 5 players from mexico, someone fill me in on how good they are

 

[ぱみゅ]

once he gets limit it doesnt matter because he becomes sword yoshi

i haven't heard of 4 of the 5 players from mexico, someone fill me in on how good they are

Even I haven't heard of Kevin.

IC was in the Genesis Crew Battle, he and the rest non-Hyuga players are from Tijuana iirc... I at least know they're from the northern part of the country.
Z0mfg actually switched to Cloud.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

yeah I'm hearing that Hyuga/IC/Meme are the best players on the crew, I don't expect them to win since they're missing 3 really good players but w/e it'll be interesting to see how it goes

Also of course the falcon main swapped to cloud, why play falcon when there's another character just as easy to use with more reward on hit

 

[juddy96]

Even I haven't heard of Kevin.

IC was in the Genesis Crew Battle, he and the rest non-Hyuga players are from Tijuana iirc... I at least know they're from the northern part of the country.
Z0mfg actually switched to Cloud.

Kevin is from Guadalajara, he got top 16 at The Arena. Meme is from Nuevo Laredo and he got top 8 at a TGC.

 

[Trifroze]

guess it's that time of the month again

Pikachu could dtilt, thunderjolt, fair, and quick attack around the stage as he pleases while also comboing into literally anything. He doesn't care about anyone's approach because he can just QA out of it unless you hard read him while he can approach almost whenever he wants. Make a single mistake and he can punish you from anywhere on the stage with a quick 20 - 30% because QA/QAC, grab, and utilt. Go to the ledge with any character but another Pikachu, MK, or Sheik and you're risking a stock/a ton of damage. The only way to actually edgeguard him is with a constant hitbox and even then you have to hard read his recovery because of the nearly infinite amount of mixups he has and the ability to just go right under the stage whenever he damn well pleases. Going offstage is a death sentence with almost any character because of Pikachu's edgeguarding abilities, whether its dragging you down with bair, stage spiking you with dair, 2 framing you with jabs, thunderspiking you, b revers thundering you, fair/nairplaning you, or doing some tipper upair -> footstool shenanigans, it will always be risky. His throws still combo into 25%+ strings and he can just quick attack/nair out of most disadvantageous positions.

So why is Pikachu considered only high tier while Sheik gets to retain her top tier status? Were either under rating Pikachu, or overrating Sheik

Sheik has good range and she excels at mobility, while Pikachu's range is severely lacking and his mobility is average without QA so he can't follow up on his attacks past low percents. Pikachu being able to punish you with 20-30% from anywhere on the stage is a grossly vague account of his punish game. He has QA and his low% combos, but QA has counterplay and low% combos work once per stock.

Sheik's edgeguarding and recovery are as good as Pikachu's (although many more characters than those you listed can easily recover against both), and even though Sheik's kill setups from grab are only DI mixups now, they are still just as much of a thing as Pikachu's uthrow rar thunder DI read in addition to having several safe setups into bouncing fish outside of grabs. Pikachu's hard punishes are better due to stronger smashes and he's harder to hit, but that's really about it.

Yet even though Pikachu is harder to hit, his need to get in closer to the opponent than Sheik combined with his low damage per hit and low weight makes trades more common and harmful for him. In addition to having to do damage at a closer range, the short reach on Pikachu's aerials, his high landing lag numbers on anything but fair and his noticeably worse AC window on fair compared to Sheik makes his neutral more predictable and less safe.

Sheik is probably somewhat overrated as a result of all the development and popularity she got during pre-1.1.5, but Pikachu isn't underrated at all. And as someone mentioned, results are always there to reflect the reality.

 

[Yikarur]

Legit question: Everyone keeps saying Cloud forces opponents to approach because he's charging limit.
But if the charge is complete, what is his plan now?

Cloud becomes the fastest overall character in the game with insane mobility and one of the best juggle and anti juggle tools.
Damn I hate this design..

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm curious about Pacman vs Ryu. How does Pacman win?

He runs.

Rosa isn't solo viable, end of discussion.

What top tier truly is now though?

Diddy I guess, but I think that might be it.

People need to stop saying Ryu loses to Pika.

Dudes buttons lose head on to Ryu. His stage control is no where near the level of MM or Pac-man. He has QAC and edgeguarding.

Pika is annoying to fight. He is no real advantage against Ryu in neutral nor is he particularly scary. Granted no one is really scarier then Ryu overall, but you get my point.

 

[Nobie]

I very well know how much Mewtwo's buffs mattered to the character, but it still makes my brain do a double take whenever I see it mentioned that Mario might have a disadvantage against Mewtwo now.

Only months earlier, the Mewtwo board (and Mewtwo players in general) lamented the Mario matchup. Mario's frame data and mobility was just too overwhelming. Now, things are different.

I don't know if I'd call it a disadvantage just because Mario still has excellent mobility combined with quick moves, but it's interesting to see why the matchup has shifted enough that people are re-evaluating it.

In previous posts, I sometimes make it look like I'm underselling those mobility buffs, but that's far from the case. What made Mario a threat in the past was that he could outspeed Mewtwo on the ground and get up-close (where Mewtwo is weakest) pretty easily. Now, being among the fastest in the game means being able to outrun Mario with relative ease.

The other big change, I think, were the fair buffs. We went over how good fair is, and even if we can't agree on whether it's "unfair" or not, we at least all agree that it's really, really good. Even putting aside kill power, if we lay it all out, it's Frame 6 which is pretty fast for a fair, can auto-cancel out of a short hop AND has low landing lag (how many moves get both), and it's safe on shield if spaced and timed correctly. For Mario, whose fair is slow and whose bair is relatively short-ranged and vulnerable to whiff punishing, Mewtwo fair is a scary prospect. I think this played out in Abadango vs. Ally because Mewtwo was clawing Mario's face off on multiple occasions.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Charged limit is a massive win-win situation for Cloud.

You can either choose to just keep it, become one of the most mobile and safe characters in the game while simultaneously being able to ride the fear-factor for as long as your stock lasts.
Or you use Cross Slash as soon as you get the tiniest opening for it and deal ~1/3rd of a stock worth of damage if you don't outright kill the opponent anyway.

 

[bc1910]

He runs.


What top tier truly is now though?

Diddy I guess, but I think that might be it.

People need to stop saying Ryu loses to Pika.

Dudes buttons lose head on to Ryu. His stage control is no where near the level of MM or Pac-man. He has QAC and edgeguarding.

Pika is annoying to fight. He is no real advantage against Ryu in neutral nor is he particularly scary. Granted no one is really scarier then Ryu overall, but you get my point.

Are there any MUs that prevent Ryu from being solo-viable? Can't think of any that should be bad enough. He doesn't have a great deal of -1s either.

Whilst I doubt anyone besides Diddy and maybe Ryu/Sheik are solo-viable by definition, plenty of top tiers make near-solo or solo runs. Even, like, Mega Man can do it.

It just makes more sense to have a secondary.

 

[Thinkaman]

In this post-1.1.6 world, I feel that the emergence of optimal Ryu could have the biggest potential shift on the future of Smash 4.

Potential.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

This community has a habit of struggling against characters that need to be played against patiently. Not criticizing anyone or discrediting any much, much warranted nerfs. Just an observation.

 

[Emblem Lord]

In this post-1.1.6 world, I feel that the emergence of optimal Ryu could have the biggest potential shift on the future of Smash 4.

Potential.

*Adds Thinkaman to the list of those who must be removed in the name of the Dragon Empire*

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Changed the Diddy vs Mega Man MU due to the feedback in regards to it.

Also, something that I find curious is that despite seemingly having no major weaknesses in her MU spread (unless I am missing something), people are rating Diddy as a better solo-viable character than Sheik. Why is that? I suppose that Diddy's bananas and other tools allow him to be extremely adaptive to almost any situation though, on top of being easier to use/master.

Also, should I add any other characters to that MU chart? probably, I am guessing. I don't want to go past 15 characters though, since I only want to look at the MU spreads of the current strongest characters in the game. Granted, I am not sure who I would consider strong enough to add past Pikachu, and even Pikachu seems pretty debatable.

 

[meticulousboy]

Changed the Diddy vs Mega Man MU due to the feedback in regards to it.

Also, something that I find curious is that despite seemingly having no major weaknesses in her MU spread (unless I am missing something), people are rating Diddy as a better solo-viable character than Sheik. Why is that? I suppose that Diddy's bananas and other tools allow him to be extremely adaptive to almost any situation though, on top of being easier to use/master.

Also, should I add any other characters to that MU chart? probably, I am guessing. I don't want to go past 15 characters though, since I only want to look at the MU spreads of the current strongest characters in the game. Granted, I am not sure who I would consider strong enough to add past Pikachu, and even Pikachu seems pretty debatable.

Seems biased, if not toxic, to only focus on top tiers and high tiers, though. Try Yoshi. I have seen The Wall do consistently well with Yoshi.

 

[BunbUn129]

Seems biased, if not toxic, to only focus on top tiers and high tiers. Try Yoshi. I have seen The Wall do consistently well with Yoshi.

Top/high-tiers are the ones that are seen and used most frequently. It's much easier to decide their general match-up spreads as a result. Because they define the meta, their MU spreads are not only clearer but also generally more relevant.

Nothing toxic about it; mid/low tiers are naturally less common and therefore it becomes much more difficult to agree on their match-ups.

Edit: also a character's MU spread vs top/high-tiers is highly important in determining their tournament viability. This applies to all characters, of course, but there's simply more data to decide the MU spread of a top/high-tier against other major tournament forces than the data available to decide a lower-tiered character's MU's.

 

[meticulousboy]

Top/high-tiers are the ones that are seen and used most frequently. It's much easier to decide their general match-up spreads as a result. Because they define the meta, their MU spreads are not only clearer but also generally more relevant.

Nothing toxic about it; mid/low tiers are naturally less common and therefore it becomes much more difficult to agree on their match-ups.

Well, at least we see mid and low tiers a bit more often in tournaments in this game compared to the competitive Melee scene. I know toxic was such a strong word, but all characters have their individual spotlights.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Seems biased, if not toxic, to only focus on top tiers and high tiers, though. Try Yoshi. I have seen The Wall do consistently well with Yoshi.

Pretty much what BunbUn129 said.

Additionally, the reason why I want to focus on something like this is to help make the MU spreads of the current top characters easier to view an analyze, which will help cut down on confusion and repetitive information/misinformation in regards to specific top tier matchups.

Basically, I am not really disregarding High/Mid tier characters within tournaments. Since Mario in particular seems to lose to them (Donkey Kong/Marth). But rather, I just simply want to view the MU's/MU spreads of the characters who are most likely to win extremely large scale tournaments like Nationals. And the 11 characters that I have mentioned have the potential, or have already won such a tournament.


So essentially, when I ask for what other characters should I add to be looked at, I am mostly asking/am curious about what other characters have the highest chance and potential for winning such tournaments, if there are any characters strong enough to consistently do so. Or within relative bounds of consistency. Something like that, anyways.


EDIT: And just to be clear (not really directed at anyone), I am specifically talking about the MU spreads of the top characters with themselves, and not lower tiered characters. Saying this just in case in order to avoid potential confusion. Just the Top 10-15 characters, is all.

 

[meticulousboy]

Pretty much what BunbUn129 said.

Additionally, the reason why I want to focus on something like this is to help make the MU spreads of the current top characters easier to view an analyze, which will help cut down on confusion and repetitive information/misinformation in regards to specific top tier matchups.

Basically, I am not really disregarding High/Mid tier characters within tournaments. Since Mario in particular seems to lose to them (Donkey Kong/Marth). But rather, I just simply want to view the MU's/MU spreads of the characters who are most likely to win extremely large scale tournaments like Nationals. And the 11 characters that I have mentioned have the potential, or have already won such a tournament.


So essentially, when I ask for what other characters should I add to be looked at, I am mostly asking/am curious about what other characters have the highest chance and potential for winning such tournaments, if there are any characters strong enough to consistently do so. Or within relative bounds of consistency. Something like that, anyways.

Now that you mention it, I would like to see the matchup spread for Ness. He should still be a high tier threat in major tournaments.

 

[Thinkaman]

You can only make a matchup chart with data--even a singel character's spread of 57 matchups is insanity.

Almost no one has played a top-level main of every character in the game, with any character.

When we begin to formulate a matchup chart, it will be by first only looking at the top 12 or so characters by performance (and more importantly, popular usage). We'll expand out from there, as more data (consistent, long-term data) rolls in.

 

[C0rvus]

One bit of info to keep in mind, and I realize this is a fairly silly reason, but without Limit charged, Cloud can short hop auto cancel his back air. With Limit, he cannot. So I prefer a more liberal usage of Limit and a more spacing-heavy style where back air can threaten a different space than most people are used to when having to fight Cloud. Probably not worth becoming even faster and holding onto a ridiculous kill move and strong recovery tool, but my Cloud fights for science!

Edit: Oh yeah, and without Limit, you can use the charge cancel to use more moves out of a run, like dtilt, fsmash, jab, cross slash, etc.. And you get comboed slightly less hard...? I mean, really you should be taking advantage of the dynamics of both states, because you can't hold it or not have it forever.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

having limit is pretty much never bad

it's the difference between being sword sheik and sword yoshi

yeah ok you lose the back air autocancel but you can also move further away from the opponent when bairing and the threat of randomly using side b and killing them at 70% is always there

 

[BunbUn129]

Not to mention Cloud's back air auto-cancels on the very last frame of non-Limit Cloud's short-hop, and almost 25 frames after the hitbox ends. If he wants to get the auto-cancel for improved safety, he actually may be putting himself in a more unsafe position by leaving himself exposed during the ~25 frames of ending lag than if he did a falling bair on shield. Bair already has good range, high shield-stun, and relatively low landing lag, so it's not like the auto-cancel is a huge bonus.

 

[Xyrohip]

i am the original.

Original in Smash..

 

[Shaya]

You shouldn't blindly approach Cloud when he's limit charging, try to take stage space from him / back him into the ledge. When a cloud manually finishes charging, he goes through an animation which I think is punishable, unless I'm an idiot and Cloud can cancel the animation at any time?

Why would you ever try to auto cancel back air anyway?
****'s made to be ****ing unpunishable on landing. And it's so ****ing huge everyone has to respect it.
Auto cancel only matters for combs / frame traps.

Nairing while facing backwards if you wish to do something retreaty is like, always better.

The dynamism of the two moves, one being for AC and the other for landing is pretty apparent with M2K/good clouds and it's borked.

What you lose from being in Limit, if anything, is regular Cross Slash. Which does 19%, has a big brawl meta knight glide attack hitbox to beat everything with, and did I mention it does 19%? On frame 10? And it also air stalls (but cuts horizontal momentum, but who cares when on stage)..
And it does 19%.
And it's frame 10, and it's functionally safe with a pittance of spacing, being able to bring out the second strike reactively to shield drops/air dodges to beat just about everythingggggggggggggggggggg
It also does 19%.
Oh and it can be done out of a dash, or b-reversed, or wave bounced, which are all nice... when it does 19% with a brawl meta knight glide attack hit box on frame 10.

God forbid people actually try using this from time to time.

Disclaimer: some characters find it easy to fall out / combo break between hits 2 and 3, usually as rage builds up. Good for them. They likely get naired into limit cross slash more reliably to even it out~

 

[Illuminose]

Well Trifroze I took a shot at doing this myself to make a top tier matchup chart and tier list based strictly off said matchup interactions. It's just using raw numbers and thus is going to be inaccurate because different matchups should be weighted differently, but yeah. Interesting results, to say the least...

Open to feedback, but I've done enough research that I'm pretty confident in what I put for like, the vast majority of these matchups (some of the Ryu ones are more arguable and I know that).

last note: this does not represent or reflect my actual tier list opinion

 

[Xandercosm]

Rosa isn't solo viable, end of discussion.

Why do you solo main her then?

 

[C0rvus]

Well Trifroze I took a shot at doing this myself to make a top tier matchup chart and tier list based strictly off said matchup interactions. It's just using raw numbers and thus is going to be inaccurate because different matchups should be weighted differently, but yeah. Interesting results, to say the least...

Open to feedback, but I've done enough research that I'm pretty confident in what I put for like, the vast majority of these matchups.

MK v Mario is -2 and Sonic is -1? If anything, it's the other way around. And MK beats Pikachu and is even with Villager, imo. Not that it would change anything in a non-weighted list like this. Still, I'm surprised MK would make a list like this. Villager too. Did you include your perceived top characters and then check their MU spreads, or did you check more characters' and cut some off? I cannot really comment on the other characters with confidence, but it's an interesting result.

 

[Trifroze]

Forcing Cloud to give up stage control requires you to approach close enough that he's threatened by your burst though, and for many characters that's not a nice range to play at versus him because his bubble is usually bigger because he's a sword Mario that runs really fast.

Illuminose ZSS beats Mewtwo or goes even at worst, not the other way around. MK, Pikachu and Villager are all most reasonable to call even, supported by top level tournament sets.

 

[meticulousboy]

Granted no one is really scarier then Ryu overall, but you get my point.

Well, there's always a Lucario at aura/rage percents.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucario has to get his face pushed in to be scary.

Ryu has to simply exist.

Also lolol. How can anyone look at Ryus matches vs other high tiers and say he is this super dominant character. You people have bigger **** to worry about then Ryu.

Look at that match-up chart that was posted and even tho I disagree with a FEW, most are spot on imo.

Yall worried about Ryu punching you in the face. Worry more about Cloud breaking all his limits.

 

[meticulousboy]

Lucario has to get his face pushed in to be scary.

Ryu has to simply exist.

Also lolol. How can anyone look at Ryus matches vs other high tiers and say he is this super dominant character. You people have bigger **** to worry about then Ryu.

Look at that match-up chart that was posted and even tho I disagree with a FEW, most are spot on imo.

Yall worried about Ryu punching you in the face. Worry more about Cloud breaking all his limits.

Honestly, Charge Shot scares me more than Cloud with his damn Limit. I am not saying that I never lost a stock to Limit before, but still.

 

[TurboLink]

Honestly, Charge Shot scares me more than Cloud with his damn Limit. I am not saying that I never lost a stock to Limit before, but still.

What type of Cloud players are you even playing?

 

[meticulousboy]

What type of Cloud players are you even playing?

I don't go to a lot of tourneys, but I do play on For Glory. The only time I play locally is at the college I go to. I remember I beat a Cloud 2-0 at my most recent tournament on February 28th this year. I guess the concept of Limit naturally doesn't scare me.

 

[C0rvus]

You haven't been taught to respect or fear it yet. Boy, you'll learn some day. Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There in lies the flaw of subjectivity when it comes to metagame discussion.

If you havent fought something at high level, then it is natural for you to not understand why it's strong or why it's weak. And most people just cannot conceptualize at a high level of understanding. They lack the knowledge, the foresight, the understanding of the engine, or how those tools impact other chars. Even in the age of youtube and twitch, players just have a really hard time grasping something unless they have gotten their ass handed to them by it.

Incidentally, I believe this is why 99% of players never become national threats. A Champion level player doesn't necessarily NEED to get owned by something. They can look at a tool, theorize about its threat level and potential, then come up with appropriate counter measures.

 

[blackghost]

theres a lot of disbelief in this thread regarding ryu. so is trela really just that good? because al.ost everytime we've seen a new character rise in terms of results (mewtwo and tink and megaman) they were first getting results by one player then others caught on. for ryu to be given more respect and not just trela hooded and venom need to make a bigger splash abd if 9b returns to ryu those results will come.
but so many people are down talking ryu for many almost projected reasons. the air speed and acceleration being low is a desigb decision because of the existence of fadc. if he had both people would be whining. 20 franes for a noncommital counter that destroys shields and eats one hit. most characters dont have a good way to deal with that. yes it loses to multihit but hiw common are good multihits? mewtwo lucas ness yes but in 58 characters not that common