Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Mazdamaxsti]

After a top 3 player in the world calls his solo-main not solo-viable, I REALLY think we need an actual specific definition for the term solo-viable.

 

[Nobie]

Often times character attributes are not entirely due to balance, but due to a desire to portray them true to their games.

Ryu has poor aerial acceleration because Street Fighter characters don't normally change direction in the air unless they're in Marvel.

Mega Man can juke really well because he can in the original games. That said, they gave him better vertical height on his leaps compared to his games so he won't die at like 50% to a spike.

In Melee, the Ice Climbers were actually close to having almost no horizontal air mobility to accurately reflect their games, until Sakurai realized this would make them unplayable.

 

[BunbUn129]

Well @Trifroze I took a shot at doing this myself to make a top tier matchup chart and tier list based strictly off said matchup interactions. It's just using raw numbers and thus is going to be inaccurate because different matchups should be weighted differently, but yeah. Interesting results, to say the least...

Open to feedback, but I've done enough research that I'm pretty confident in what I put for like, the vast majority of these matchups (some of the Ryu ones are more arguable and I know that).

last note: this does not represent or reflect my actual tier list opinion

MK vs Mega Man is even or very slightly in MK's favor. MK loses -1 to Fox. MK vs M2 is even or slightly in M2's favor.

 

[L9999]

This community has a habit of struggling against characters that need to be played against patiently. Not criticizing anyone or discrediting any much, much warranted nerfs. Just an observation.

People still have this stigma of playing aggressive and swag because Melee, and while it leads to some hilarious KOs like Ally' F-Throw to Fair on Anti, it also leads to stupid SDs and EZ 2-0s. I once played a that would not approach for the heck of it and made a wall of Fair all the match and expected me to be aggresive and punish me. I didn't fall for his crap and I struggled to bait him out and beat him, because he just couldn't give up, but on both sides, we weren't running like idiots to beat each other, we were playing patient. And looking at the replay, it looks draining and "lame" but neither of us wanted to lose. If that guy was a bad player, he would try to dash grab me all the time or run at me with Nair or something stupid along those lines. But something worse than impatience is counterpicking stages. This people never learn that Sheikville is not in their favor.....

 

[Luco]

I think Dabuz's post has probably influenced people in this thread to finally stop and go:

What if all this time we were asking the wrong question?

THAT being said if you want a game that feels like you want secondaries but is also balanced enough to seem like you could use a whole lot of characters and playstyles then we may still be a way off - after all, it is better to secondary Sheik or Diddy than it is to secondary Wii Fit or even Greninja, right?

Also, tfw Wave feels more comfortable using Greninja than he does WFT.

 

[Nu~]

Also, tfw Wave feels more comfortable using Greninja than he does WFT.

Greninja does fit his aggressive bait and punish playstyle more than Wii fit did.

 

[Jams.]

I very well know how much Mewtwo's buffs mattered to the character, but it still makes my brain do a double take whenever I see it mentioned that Mario might have a disadvantage against Mewtwo now.

Only months earlier, the Mewtwo board (and Mewtwo players in general) lamented the Mario matchup. Mario's frame data and mobility was just too overwhelming. Now, things are different.

I don't know if I'd call it a disadvantage just because Mario still has excellent mobility combined with quick moves, but it's interesting to see why the matchup has shifted enough that people are re-evaluating it.

In previous posts, I sometimes make it look like I'm underselling those mobility buffs, but that's far from the case. What made Mario a threat in the past was that he could outspeed Mewtwo on the ground and get up-close (where Mewtwo is weakest) pretty easily. Now, being among the fastest in the game means being able to outrun Mario with relative ease.

The other big change, I think, were the fair buffs. We went over how good fair is, and even if we can't agree on whether it's "unfair" or not, we at least all agree that it's really, really good. Even putting aside kill power, if we lay it all out, it's Frame 6 which is pretty fast for a fair, can auto-cancel out of a short hop AND has low landing lag (how many moves get both), and it's safe on shield if spaced and timed correctly. For Mario, whose fair is slow and whose bair is relatively short-ranged and vulnerable to whiff punishing, Mewtwo fair is a scary prospect. I think this played out in Abadango vs. Ally because Mewtwo was clawing Mario's face off on multiple occasions.

Ally's also dropped a game to Deathorse's (rank 6 in Ottawa) at an Ottawa weekly recently before taking the next two games fairly handily with his . While it was just a weekly, I think it still helps reinforce the idea that Mewtwo gives Mario problems, and that it doesn't take a Mewtwo of Abadango's caliber to threaten someone as strong as Ally.

Also, something that I find curious is that despite seemingly having no major weaknesses in her MU spread (unless I am missing something), people are rating Diddy as a better solo-viable character than Sheik. Why is that? I suppose that Diddy's bananas and other tools allow him to be extremely adaptive to almost any situation though, on top of being easier to use/master.

I think Sheik's archetype benefits from theoretical MU charts in the same manner Ganondorf's archetype suffers. She can theoretically win neutral so often with her powerful tools, then juggle/ledge trap the opponent forever, that her issues closing a stock don't seem to matter (or it's hard to quantify the extent it matters). In practice though, we've seen the top Sheik players' consistency suffer after the patch. Diddy having better confirms than Sheik helps his consistency greatly.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Ally's also dropped a game to Deathorse's (rank 6 in Ottawa) at an Ottawa weekly recently before taking the next two games fairly handily with his . While it was just a weekly, I think it still helps reinforce the idea that Mewtwogives Mario problems, and that it doesn't take a Mewtwo of Abadango's caliber to threaten someone as strong as Ally.

I think Sheik's archetype benefits from theoretical MU charts in the same manner Ganondorf's archetype suffers. She can theoretically win neutral so often with her powerful tools, then juggle/ledge trap the opponent forever, that her issues closing a stock don't seem to matter (or it's hard to quantify the extent it matters). In practice though, we've seen the top Sheik players' consistency suffer after the patch. Diddy having better confirms than Sheik helps his consistency greatly.

Ah, good to have more reassurance about the Mario vs Mewtwo matchup. I myself play both characters, and I do feel as though that it is Mewtwo's advantage. Good to see that there is more data to agree with this beyond Abadango.

Hmm, so the biggest problem Sheik suffers is lack of consistency due to how difficult it is to play her optimally 100% of the time. Where-as Diddy is pretty much guaranteed a followup most of the time after a well-placed banana or off of a Dtilt confirm or something. That sounds pretty accurate.

Working on something~

 

[bc1910]

Greninja doesn't make a good secondary. By nature he is a jack-of-all trades character; there are more MUs that need to be played differently than there are with the good secondaries like Cloud and Sheik, who can plough through most MUs using the same gameplan. Same reason Ryu doesn't make a good secondary.

Greninja can be very rewarding as a main though. If you back him up with Cloud then your biggest problem is Diddy Kong whom Greninja has one of the better MUs against at this point. Hype has fallen off now but I still think this character is incredibly exciting on paper.

There in lies the flaw of subjectivity when it comes to metagame discussion.

If you havent fought something at high level, then it is natural for you to not understand why it's strong or why it's weak. And most people just cannot conceptualize at a high level of understanding. They lack the knowledge, the foresight, the understanding of the engine, or how those tools impact other chars. Even in the age of youtube and twitch, players just have a really hard time grasping something unless they have gotten their *** handed to them by it.

Incidentally, I believe this is why 99% of players never become national threats. A Champion level player doesn't necessarily NEED to get owned by something. They can look at a tool, theorize about its threat level and potential, then come up with appropriate counter measures.

99% of players would rather complain than learn.

Anyway, my question was genuine - MUs preventing Ryu from being solo-viable?

 

[meticulousboy]

I am not complaining here, sir. Don't even think that this is the thread for it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Greninja doesn't make a good secondary. By nature he is a jack-of-all trades character; there are more MUs that need to be played differently than there are with the good secondaries like Cloud and Sheik, who can plough through most MUs using the same gameplan. Same reason Ryu doesn't make a good secondary.

Greninja can be very rewarding as a main though. If you back him up with Cloud then your biggest problem is Diddy Kong whom Greninja has one of the better MUs against at this point. Hype has fallen off now but I still think this character is incredibly exciting on paper.



99% of players would rather complain than learn.

Anyway, my question was genuine - MUs preventing Ryu from being solo-viable?

It's no one match. It's knowing that when you enter a tourney you will fight a slew of matches that Ryu has a slight disadvantage in.

It is mentally taxing.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Hmm, so the biggest problem Sheik suffers is lack of consistency due to how difficult it is to play her optimally 100% of the time. Where-as Diddy is pretty much guaranteed a followup most of the time after a well-placed banana or off of a Dtilt confirm or something.

Exaaaactly. It's why I as a Sheik/Diddy player find more consistency with Diddy but absolute peaks with Sheik.
She's EXTREMELY difficult to be "on" with 100% of the time. People can say "oh safest kit can't be hit needles can't be challenged broken frame data" all they want but fact of the matter is that her gameplay style postpatch forces you to play exceptionally well for an exhausting amount of time. She really can't punish the opponent for a stock after they commit to something dumb(good example being Sheik vs Mario while both are at 100% and the Mario is spamming Usmash) aside from gaining stage positioning, and the cost for her slipping at all ends up in her being combo'd heavily or just dying at 60.
This was also sorta true prepatch to a much lesser extent because dthrow and higher weight, which is why ZeRo opted to swap to Diddy vs Lucario rather than Sheik.

 

[TDK]

After a top 3 player in the world calls his solo-main not solo-viable, I REALLY think we need an actual specific definition for the term solo-viable.

Not to mention that said player says his main that he solo mains isn't solo-viable when he solo-mains her and is like the #2 player in the world. Based on that, only Diddy and Cloud are solo viable.

 

[Megamang]

Emblem Lord

Would you say Mega is the worst of those slight disadvantages? Everything just seems to fall into place in that MU, especially with a multi hit, powerful, frame 4 back air and that is easy to place due to the huge discrepancy in air accel. (Biggest in the game actually). Like every other MU, when Ryu gets in it hurts, but even then mega's heavyness prevents the truly 'janky' percent range of kills. Uair is a big problem too, since he can't change direction quickly you can expect to do a lot of damage when he is above you.


But, I don't have much good Ryu experience anymore since the main that lived near me quit. I just wanna get my theory into place so I don't get blindsided in a MU.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

There in lies the flaw of subjectivity when it comes to metagame discussion.

If you havent fought something at high level, then it is natural for you to not understand why it's strong or why it's weak. And most people just cannot conceptualize at a high level of understanding. They lack the knowledge, the foresight, the understanding of the engine, or how those tools impact other chars. Even in the age of youtube and twitch, players just have a really hard time grasping something unless they have gotten their *** handed to them by it.

Incidentally, I believe this is why 99% of players never become national threats. A Champion level player doesn't necessarily NEED to get owned by something. They can look at a tool, theorize about its threat level and potential, then come up with appropriate counter measures.

There's a reason I don't post much in this thread. I know perfectly well that I lack the experience necessary to comment about most of the usual topics du jour. I could spout my opinions about, say, Cloud but without anything to back it up...what's the point?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Emblem Lord

Would you say Mega is the worst of those slight disadvantages? Everything just seems to fall into place in that MU, especially with a multi hit, powerful, frame 4 back air and that is easy to place due to the huge discrepancy in air accel. (Biggest in the game actually). Like every other MU, when Ryu gets in it hurts, but even then mega's heavyness prevents the truly 'janky' percent range of kills. Uair is a big problem too, since he can't change direction quickly you can expect to do a lot of damage when he is above you.


But, I don't have much good Ryu experience anymore since the main that lived near me quit. I just wanna get my theory into place so I don't get blindsided in a MU.

Indeed but MM will never be a match that stops Ryu from excelling because he plays in such a way that most players don't like. He is not popular.

Also stop saying multi hit in reference to Ryu.

When we spar how often do I FA, unless it's just for movement? How often do I do it neutral? Exactly.

Stop bring this **** up guys. It's not ****ing relevant.

 

[Ulevo]

Emblem Lord recently I have seen talk about Meta Knight's punish game and how it is sub par. Whether or not something is good or bad in this game is relative and I am not familiar with just how much damage every character does per hit confirm on average. How much damage would you say Ryu usually does in a standard combo or punish most of the time? Given Ryu post 1.1.5 has the best punish game this would act as a good reference point for what is good and what is not.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Not to mention that said player says his main that he solo mains isn't solo-viable when he solo-mains her and is like the #2 player in the world. Based on that, only Diddy and Cloud are solo viable.

Unless of course, you remember the whole general issue of "most top level players undersell their characters unless they're ESAM, while low level players tend to oversell them".

Next to nobody is immune to that no matter where they are on the skill scale. Zero probably genuinely believed that Diddy and Sheik didn't need nerfs and not because he won with them as an example. A lot of MK players in Brawl genuinely thought MK was fine even though everyone else knew otherwise.

Kinda happens when you're playing at such a high level, your characters weaknesses become magnified to you. And if you get to frequently play other players of that level they will target those weaknesses you have magnified in your head.

No need to start a whole philosophical debate over "what is solo viable" or "does solo viability really matter?". In fact it would be really silly to do either and a waste of time. Results speak for themselves in both cases. Just be observant instead of spewing nonsense. (This ain't directly at you specifically but at this thread)

 

[Megamang]

Indeed but MM will never be a match that stops Ryu from excelling because he plays in such a way that most players don't like. He is not popular.

Also stop saying multi hit in reference to Ryu.

When we spar how often do I FA, unless it's just for movement? How often do I do it neutral? Exactly.

Stop bring this **** up guys. It's not ****ing relevant.

It is certainly relevant to characters that don't have a multi hitting aerial. Say, Robin. She can go up high and create traps to levin uair most characters at the top, resulting in a situation she can predict someone and kill them early. Not Ryu. Since it only hits once, him falling FA cannot get him killed and the following DC gets him away safely. That is annoying. There are many characters that simply cannot kill a Ryu with their normal methods if he uses FA precisely.


Oh, and if you get hit by FA2 or 3, you die at stupid low percents. Yea, FA doesn't do much in the MM MU, that is my point. He negates it naturally. Many characters hate the hell outta that move, and it skews the Risk/Rewards scenario heavily in Ryu's favor.

If you don't have a good tool for multi hitting and killing ryu, either offstage or upwards, then you are gonna be dealing with Rage Ryu a lot. And that sucks.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It is certainly relevant to characters that don't have a multi hitting aerial. Say, Robin. She can go up high and create traps to levin uair most characters at the top, resulting in a situation she can predict someone and kill them early. Not Ryu. Since it only hits once, him falling FA cannot get him killed and the following DC gets him away safely. That is annoying. There are many characters that simply cannot kill a Ryu with their normal methods if he uses FA precisely.


Oh, and if you get hit by FA2 or 3, you die at stupid low percents. Yea, FA doesn't do much in the MM MU, that is my point. He negates it naturally. Many characters hate the hell outta that move, and it skews the Risk/Rewards scenario heavily in Ryu's favor.

If you don't have a good tool for multi hitting and killing ryu, either offstage or upwards, then you are gonna be dealing with Rage Ryu a lot. And that sucks.

It's relevant against bad chars?

Man I love you. You literally do my work for me when you post.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yeah, are there any notable characters that can't juggle with Focus Attack around? Either they have multihit Uairs or they can throw out two attacks in the time it takes for Ryu to get away. First character that comes to mind is Corrin but his Uspecial probably kills fast enough to where it's a bad idea.

 

[Luco]

Unless of course, you remember the whole general issue of "most top level players undersell their characters unless they're ESAM, while low level players tend to oversell them".

Next to nobody is immune to that no matter where they are on the skill scale. Zero probably genuinely believed that Diddy and Sheik didn't need nerfs and not because he won with them as an example. A lot of MK players in Brawl genuinely thought MK was fine even though everyone else knew otherwise.

Kinda happens when you're playing at such a high level, your characters weaknesses become magnified to you. And if you get to frequently play other players of that level they will target those weaknesses you have magnified in your head.

No need to start a whole philosophical debate over "what is solo viable" or "does solo viability really matter?". In fact it would be really silly to do either and a waste of time. Results speak for themselves in both cases. Just be observant instead of spewing nonsense. (This ain't directly at you specifically but at this thread)

Results do indeed speak for themselves.

... When was the last time Rosa came 1st at an international event? Dabuz may be underselling his character's strengths but if we're looking at evidence then we're seeing Dabuz, a fantastic player and Rosa, a similarly fantastic character BUT there is a definitive gap between Dabuz and the next best Rosas and I think mayyybbbeee he has a point.

At the highest levels of play there really are only a very, very select few solo viable mains IMO. We're seeing the same suspects winning the nationals - or else it's just ZeRo being too good and perhaps the character diversity at the top will rapidly increase post-GOML. Buuuuuuuuut I'm not yet convinced, and I don't think it's a silly question to at least raise at this time. If not the question of solo viability and secondary use, at least the question of 'does our top tier need more dividers?' Because, as much as we stab ourselves over 12 or 13 characters, it seems maybe we've homogenised their viability levels just a bit too much.

Well, it's just my thought processes right now. I'm really tired, and I super appreciate the respect you gave me by not calling me out by name, but I don't mind taking responsibility for my comment, it's just my fear - justified or not.

 

[Das Koopa]

Why do you solo main her then?

It may depend on his definition of "solo-viability".

Viability means different things to different people. For the most conservative definitions, it would only refer to characters that have demonstrably shown to be able to or come sufficiently close to taking tournaments at a major. If we were to judge Melee's viability by this standard, you would have , , , , , and as the six viable characters.

On the other hand, if you define viability more liberally to apply to getting into top 8s, then characters such as , , , , , and enter the picture ( is trash and is hard to pin in today's meta since nobody uses him, though some insist he's superior to Luigi). This could be a workable definition of viability if your definition means the ability to get paid adequately. Since money is an incentive, getting 4th with may make you feel comfortable in calling your character competitively viable if money is a big incentive for you as a player.

"Solo-viability", in my opinion, is an extremely tricky term. Most characters go down even slightly with at least one character, and there's no shortage of players who may just not play well against certain characters. Variables like this and sometimes bizarre brackets give us a universe where can win a major solo but hasn't done so yet, which makes you question if the term is even relevant when we know Sheik is an astoundingly, stupidly good character. The more characters, the higher likelihood that you'll need a secondary to compete.

Even in Melee, most top players dual main/secondary. Leffen and Hbox are exceptions, but I don't think it's a coincidence that the best and one of the best s in the world is ranked #1 right now when both of those characters ran together have the best statistical matchup chart in the game. It should make Smash 4 players reflect on the idea of finding the most beneficial and workable dual-main strategy, even if you aren't going with the "Best". I think that'll involve more than seekret pocket Cloud, personally.

 

[Mario766]

Yeah, are there any notable characters that can't juggle with Focus Attack around? Either they have multihit Uairs or they can throw out two attacks in the time it takes for Ryu to get away. First character that comes to mind is Corrin but his Uspecial probably kills fast enough to where it's a bad idea.

Define notable.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Emblem Lord recently I have seen talk about Meta Knight's punish game and how it is sub par. Whether or not something is good or bad in this game is relative and I am not familiar with just how much damage every character does per hit confirm on average. How much damage would you say Ryu usually does in a standard combo or punish most of the time? Given Ryu post 1.1.5 has the best punish game this would act as a good reference point for what is good and what is not.

Hmm, see thats tough because Ryu's best stuff comes from FA, which you need to screw up badly to get hit by. Now of course if you do eat a lvl 3 FA then Ryu can 0 to death you. That's not common at high level and should be ignored imo. More consistent punishes are basic confirms as you said. Something like utiltx2, d-tiltx2, hard dtilt xx tatsu is a clean 25ish percent. Add a dair before that and it jumps to 35ish percent. At low percents a triple fair is an easy 43%. 30% for double fair. Vs fast fallers utilt lock to shoryu is gonna be anywhere between 20% to death. FA lvl 2, Dair, dtiltx3, hard dtilt xx tatsu is near 50%.

Generally Ryu is going to average 25% to 30%. With a FA crumple that jumps to about 35% to 45%.

 

[irokex13]

Yeah, are there any notable characters that can't juggle with Focus Attack around? Either they have multihit Uairs or they can throw out two attacks in the time it takes for Ryu to get away. First character that comes to mind is Corrin but his Uspecial probably kills fast enough to where it's a bad idea.

Ike is really the only character who gets screwed by FA. Every other relevant character has some reasonable way to deal with it.

While it might seem like I hate Ryu or think he's broken, I don't even think he's top 5. I think several top tiers can say that they beat him (Cloud, Sheik, Rosalina, Diddy) and there are several other lower tiered characters that go even with him (Lucas, Marth, possibly Peach, possibly Robin, possibly Shulk). Many characters can reasonably contest him in neutral and avoid his kill confirms.

The problem is how taxing it is to fight a good Ryu. Personally, unless I have a stock lead, I don't really feel like I have a lead on Ryu. He has arguably the best punish game and he can kill extremely early with Shoryuken, Dair, or by breaking your shield. Ryu can tilt players really hard, and you are NOT allowed to mess up in neutral against him. When Ryu is in your head, he can feel so oppressive. However, the same thing happens back to Ryu. He's not like pre patch ZSS, Bayo, or MK where he just has one oppressive option that will win him the neutral. When Ryu is behind or struggling to keep up in neutral, he doesn't look too hot. The moment he starts fishing for confirms against a patient player, he has pretty much lost the match (or at least that stock). Keeping your composure against Ryu is extremely important, but it's easy to lose that considering how easily he can close a deficit.

 

[Megamang]

It's relevant against bad chars?

Man I love you. You literally do my work for me when you post.

I think Ryus tend to underestimate it. Its a one time armor that also gives you mobility... its really the reward that is excellent.Even on a shield hit, it can be devastating. Its easy to ignore it when you don't rely on it much, but you really have to respect it if you don't have the right tools. Like... Yoshi is a decent character, and he can't hope to get a fair spike offstage unless the Ryu makes a significant mistake.


Rosa sans luma won't kill you off the top.... Yoshi won't kill you off the top unless you get dair'd (lol). CLOUD! Can't kill you with uair or fair offstage... its a tool, that is there, that is hugely relevant. Even if you don't rely on it. It can win games on a read on, say, a Mario trying to usmash your landing because he can't kill you at 150%, hes at 50%> Lol FA2 you win.



Yea, its not amazing or neutral defining. But in a RPS universe, its a trump card to powerful hits that has ludicrous reward for a heavy, killing you with easy conversion as soon as you mistakenly commit to a smash.

 

[Yikarur]

Ike is really the only character who gets screwed by FA. Every other relevant character has some reasonable way to deal with it.

How can Ike get screwed by Focus Attack if he has that massive disjointed range? that doesn't make sense to me. Focus Attack is not that simpel "oh single hit -> ****! multi hit -> get *****" no, it's more complicated than that.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Results do indeed speak for themselves.

... When was the last time Rosa came 1st at an international event? Dabuz may be underselling his character's strengths but if we're looking at evidence then we're seeing Dabuz, a fantastic player and Rosa, a similarly fantastic character BUT there is a definitive gap between Dabuz and the next best Rosas and I think mayyybbbeee he has a point.

At the highest levels of play there really are only a very, very select few solo viable mains IMO. We're seeing the same suspects winning the nationals - or else it's just ZeRo being too good and perhaps the character diversity at the top will rapidly increase post-GOML. Buuuuuuuuut I'm not yet convinced, and I don't think it's a silly question to at least raise at this time. If not the question of solo viability and secondary use, at least the question of 'does our top tier need more dividers?' Because, as much as we stab ourselves over 12 or 13 characters, it seems maybe we've homogenised their viability levels just a bit too much.

Well, it's just my thought processes right now. I'm really tired, and I super appreciate the respect you gave me by not calling me out by name, but I don't mind taking responsibility for my comment, it's just my fear - justified or not.

Dabuz gets a top 8 placing almost everywhere he goes, and also got 2nd at arguably the most stacked tournament in relevant sm4sh tournaments, while also having winning records against so many top players. To add to this, he is sometimes recognized as the 2nd best player in the world while solo-maining Rosalina.

You can't undersell results. Rosalina, from what is clearly shown, is solo-viable. If Dabuz falls off hard and can't win with Rosa I'll trust she isn't solo-viable.

 

[Greward]

Well @Trifroze I took a shot at doing this myself to make a top tier matchup chart and tier list based strictly off said matchup interactions. It's just using raw numbers and thus is going to be inaccurate because different matchups should be weighted differently, but yeah. Interesting results, to say the least...

Open to feedback, but I've done enough research that I'm pretty confident in what I put for like, the vast majority of these matchups (some of the Ryu ones are more arguable and I know that).

last note: this does not represent or reflect my actual tier list opinion

Mega Man goes even with Ryu and villager and loses strongly to mewtwo. Zss and MK I can't really tell.

Didn't Mario go even with Sheik now? I'm pretty sure it's not the same level of bad as Mega Man's lol

 

[LancerStaff]

Define notable.

Pretty much.

Ike is really the only character who gets screwed by FA. Every other relevant character has some reasonable way to deal with it.

Wouldn't Aether work, or does it not link properly?

 

[irokex13]

How can Ike get screwed by Focus Attack if he has that massive disjointed range? that doesn't make sense to me. Focus Attack is not that simpel "oh single hit -> ****! multi hit -> get *****" no, it's more complicated than that.

In situations where one would normally be considered in disadvantage, FA can slant the risk/reward of that towards Ryu.

When fighting Ike, it is dangerous to be above him. He can hit characters hard with fair/up air if he reads if they will try to jump or airdodge. Against Ryu, his juggling game is noticeably less threatening. FA has frame 1 armor and will absorb half the damage, so Ryu can take the attack, then either counter attack if Ike misspaced, or just dash away and reset neutral. Ryu doesn't have to be afraid of being juggled by Ike because Ike cannot reasonably take him out of FA.

When fighting against Ryu, you really have to pick and choose when it is worth it to challenge him in neutral and when you should just run away. The more chances you give Ryu to win/reset neutral, the more likely you are to die by rage anything (SRK is not his only threatening option). If you have less options to win neutral against him, like how Ike can't reasonably juggle him, then you have to be a lot more careful about choosing when it is ok to challenge Ryu.

 

[ARGHETH]

Wouldn't Aether work, or does it not link properly?

It probably would (If we're counting Corrin's Up B then it certainly works), but, as mentioned above, Ike has massive disjoints. He doesn't need to be close enough for it to hit.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Regarding relevant characters that can't deal with Focus Attack, what about Cloud? I...admittedly don't know a whole lot about either his or Ryu's optimal gameplans, let alone how they would interact, but on paper his single-hit uair would fail to dislodge FA, and come to think of it most of his moveset is also single hit bar fsmash, Cross Slash, and Limit Blade Beam. Unless you count his jab combo, I guess.

I'll also mention Rosalina in a weird if-you-squint sort of way since she relies so much on Luma for her spacing and Luma has zero multihits. Unless she's close enough to hit you herself FA can tank anything Luma throws out. Well, except Star Bits. (EDIT: And rapid jab.)

ZSS nair and uair also come to mind but the same caveats apply.

Question for Emblem Lord how does the range on Focus Attack compare to Ryu's grab and other OOS options, and how does all of that compare to his ability to simply dash cancel FA and GTFO? I'm trying to weigh the risk/reward of hitting FA compared to hitting shield and lack the data necessary to really say much of anything.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think Ryus tend to underestimate it. Its a one time armor that also gives you mobility... its really the reward that is excellent.Even on a shield hit, it can be devastating. Its easy to ignore it when you don't rely on it much, but you really have to respect it if you don't have the right tools. Like... Yoshi is a decent character, and he can't hope to get a fair spike offstage unless the Ryu makes a significant mistake.


Rosa sans luma won't kill you off the top.... Yoshi won't kill you off the top unless you get dair'd (lol). CLOUD! Can't kill you with uair or fair offstage... its a tool, that is there, that is hugely relevant. Even if you don't rely on it. It can win games on a read on, say, a Mario trying to usmash your landing because he can't kill you at 150%, hes at 50%> Lol FA2 you win.



Yea, its not amazing or neutral defining. But in a RPS universe, its a trump card to powerful hits that has ludicrous reward for a heavy, killing you with easy conversion as soon as you mistakenly commit to a smash.

It ****s on single hit land trap scenarios so if you rely on those I suggest you go back to the drawing board.

Other then that I consider the move overrated.

The smash community at large goes crazy over it because of the metagame's tendency towards overtuned neutral tools, which FA is probably the closest thing Ryu has to that.

FA is not that at all.

The move is not that serious and is one of the main reasons that mid level Ryus get bodied. Overusing it.

Ryu has to commit to FA for....26 frames before he can do anything? This is off my memory.

You tell me friends. Is that good?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It ****s on single hit land trap scenarios so if you rely on those I suggest you go back to the drawing board.

Other then that I consider the move overrated.

The smash community at large goes crazy over it because of the metagame's tendency towards overtuned neutral tools, which FA is probably the closest thing Ryu has to that.

FA is not that at all.

The move is not that serious and is one of the main reasons that mid level Ryus get bodied. Overusing it.

Ryu has to commit to FA for....26 frames before he can do anything? This is off my memory.

You tell me friends. Is that good?

I don't know about good but it's still a unique tool that no other character has and I'd be a fool if I didn't at least consider how it would affect my strategy. Same reason I still think about Din's Fire when I fight a Zelda, even if that thinking boils down to "remember to spotdodge".

 

[Quantumpen]

A comment about Mewtwo and a common misconception I see people clinging too (Because it was true in the past)

Rushdown characters don't give Mewtwo problems. This includes Mario, Fox, Sheik, Diddy (sort of). The insistence that these characters beat or are difficult for Mewtwo because they have good frame data is wrong, Mewtwo doesn't care about their frame data because he has the perfect storm of zoning/mobility tools

Mewtwo, more than any other zoning/spacing character in the game, can deal with rush-down (and these characters in potential) because:

1) He has excellent, high-reward pokes that out-range and beat these characters when he's at range (d-tilt, fair). This moves are tough to trade with, Mewtwo gets combos or stage control from them, they're quick and hard to punish and they let Mewtwo exert oppressive pressure over characters that rely on getting in
2) He exerts zone control will with shadow-ball and the above moves, making it difficult even for good rush-down characters to get in on him. Confusion helps here too, as it stuffs a lot of shielded approaches.
3) This one is important: He can run away. He can run away better than any other zoning character. Not only is he extremely quick, but he has high jumps that cover a ton of distance, a great "get-off-me" OOS option in Nair, a frame-2 air-dodge he can use out of shield to retreat/escape pressure, and then go right back to playing the game he wants to play.

The combination of the above three make it hard to approach, and even stick to Mewtwo. This is problem is exacerbated by mewtwo's totally free recovery (you're never edge-guarding a good Mewtwo) and one of his strongest, most controlling neutral options in fair being a kill move. It becomes very hard for rush-down characters to jump in because trading with fair is death.

That's why he beats Sheik, goes even with Diddy, and IMO beats Fox and Mario as well. Those characters don't have great ways of getting through his space control and if they do, he can get away pretty easily. As percents scale, those characters start to get shut-down by the threat of fair/d-tilt fair confirm or a read grab and have serious trouble dealing with M2's spacing game.

Mewtwo's only hard match-ups are against characters who can keep him from playing his game. That game is running away, controlling space with insanely good zoning tools that threaten huge % and stock taking capabilities. This means the character has to have a specific "now I'm in" move or have disjoints that beat mewtwo's zoning options.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I respect that answer. btw cloud ****s on it with cross slash. lvl 1 FA is -12 on block and lvl 2 is -10? Again this is from memory. It has quite a bit more reach then his grab. About the same as his light ftilt.

If you see an FA just back up or jump away. You will never die for NOT challenging it.

 

[Mario766]

Ike pretty much has to respect Focus Attack. Yes, we can out-space it.

The risk is way too high to be doing that often though, our only multi-hit is Aether. LOL at anyone trying to say to Aether FA on reaction though, it's a frame 18 option that horribly links and only really mluti-hits at the spinning part. Ryu has to commit for only 10 frames beyond that, not worth.

Ike also loves landing traps.

Guess who doesn't care about landing traps that don't involve multi-hits.

 

[Swoops]

A comment about Mewtwo and a common misconception I see people clinging too (Because it was true in the past)

Rushdown characters don't give Mewtwo problems. This includes Mario, Fox, Sheik, Diddy (sort of). The insistence that these characters beat or are difficult for Mewtwo because they have good frame data is wrong, Mewtwo doesn't care about their frame data because he has the perfect storm of zoning/mobility tools

Mewtwo, more than any other zoning/spacing character in the game, can deal with rush-down (and these characters in potential) because:

1) He has excellent, high-reward pokes that out-range and beat these characters when he's at range (d-tilt, fair). This moves are tough to trade with, Mewtwo gets combos or stage control from them, they're quick and hard to punish and they let Mewtwo exert oppressive pressure over characters that rely on getting in
2) He exerts zone control will with shadow-ball and the above moves, making it difficult even for good rush-down characters to get in on him. Confusion helps here too, as it stuffs a lot of shielded approaches.
3) This one is important: He can run away. He can run away better than any other zoning character. Not only is he extremely quick, but he has high jumps that cover a ton of distance, a great "get-off-me" OOS option in Nair, a frame-2 air-dodge he can use out of shield to retreat/escape pressure, and then go right back to playing the game he wants to play.

The combination of the above three make it hard to approach, and even stick to Mewtwo. This is problem is exacerbated by mewtwo's totally free recovery (you're never edge-guarding a good Mewtwo) and one of his strongest, most controlling neutral options in fair being a kill move. It becomes very hard for rush-down characters to jump in because trading with fair is death.

That's why he beats Sheik, goes even with Diddy, and IMO beats Fox and Mario as well. Those characters don't have great ways of getting through his space control and if they do who can get away pretty easily. As percents scale, those characters start to get shut-down by the threat of fair/d-tilt fair confirm or a read grab and have serious trouble dealing with M2's spacing game.

Mewtwo's only hard match-ups are against characters who can keep him from playing his game. That game is running away, controlling space with insanely good zoning tools that threaten huge % and stock taking capabilities. This means the character has to have a specific "now I'm in" move or have disjoints that beat mewtwo's zoning options.

A quick counterpoint to all of this, even though M2 can get away from a dis-advantaged state pretty well, he isn't particularly threatening when disadvantaged or retreating.

A frame 7 move isn't a great get-of-me, especially when it has a hitbox that will get beat by anything and usually trade for 1% at best. His F-Air is really his most threatening disadvantage tool, but even with that they have to be at a certain positioning near him. Generally M2 needs to escape first, and then he becomes a threat. Once an opponent is in on him they don't have much to fear until he finds an opportunity to escape.