Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ShadowGuy1]

Not gonna lie a lot these summaries kinda suck. You're better off doing your own research.

Know I am late to this, but it was really just 1 thing I could think about for the character. And the Ness Meme stuff is a just a joke, along with other characters I mentioned in that section.

 

[Aaron1997]

a

Pac-Man beats:
Pacman goes even with:
Pacman loses to:

I agree with most of these except a couple.

First of all, I'm not sure how fox is a good match-up for us. We destroy him off stage if we can get him there which is easier said then done. Smart players won't Challange you in the air knowing a Hydrant will be dropped on them. He out buttons us and we cant keep him out forever. Unless theres something I'm not getting. I don't see it


Either I get lucky with some of the Sonic's I play or the way I play Pacman is just good vs Sonic. I don't see how we lose to him. Yes goes though Hydrant like's its nothing but he cant bypass trampline. He struggles the moment we start Z-dropping something like Key or melon. I've Beaten sonic players that I feel like they where better then me because I got Key in hand and they couldn't do much about it.

@RK Joker
We beat Ryu because he stuggle's to get in with his average Mobility. He has Focus but Galaxian blows it up and we will never will be in Range to get punished most of the time. Our Frame 4 N-air stops up-tilt strings and Pacman is one of the few that can edgequard Ryu reliably. Ryu typically loses to most zoners because of his Average mobility.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I know this is fairly late, but I wanted to find some way to shoehorn pacman into the discussion and this was a rather nice opportunity

While not exactly "meme" status, Pac-Man has certainly vanished into thin air after Abadango and Koolaid dropped him. Hell, I dropped him too around that time because I thought he was hopeless. Half of his tools could be used against him, he couldn't kill reliably, and he had no way to really threaten shields.
(My previous fall out with the character for further context)


But recently, I thought that perhaps I was overstating his weaknesses. Attacks cancelling out items is nothing new, and is frankly, irrelevant if you know what you're doing. No one is going to constantly smack your projectiles out of the sky unless you're spamming them randomly or not following up on your hydrant launches. Many of Pacman's traps may have counterplay, but the counterplay changes each time. No opponent will be able to get out of every trap every time. We're fighting humans, not people. Even then, we still have dangerous set ups that work no matter what such as DA -> bell -> side B. Hell, we can even imitate kamemushi's metal blade jab lock kill setup with ANY fruit besides the orange and Galaxian. The character can thrive even with matchup experience. He still struggles with shields, but hydrant pressure (when you follow up on it and capitalize) and z drops in close range help mitigate this a tad. Killing is a bit of an issue, but if we focus on gimping or jab lock fruit kills, it won't hurt as much.


Also, the meta is very kind to pacman right now so he may have a chance to compete with the big boys if someone steps up to the plate.

If I take @Trifroze 's list of perceived top characters:


I see a light at the end of the tunnel for pacman. A nerfed Bayonetta, cloud, shiek, and ZSS are music to Pac-Man's ear holes (? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯¿) because this means that he has very few characters left in his way.

Now for the controversy

Mega Man's spread according to theory and some results (correct me if I'm wrong Megamang )

Mega man beats:
Mega man goes even with:
Mega man loses to:

Sounds like a future high tier to me.


Compare this to Pac-Man's spread:

Pac-Man beats:
Pacman goes even with:
Pacman loses to:

Interesting.....

So challenge me. If you think I'm crazy, I'll explain each matchup if asked and even link videos. Don't want to fill up this post with matchup analysis on each character.

is usually considered one of Pac-Man's worst matchups, he should switch with Sonic. Also Fox is probably even too.

 

[C0rvus]

Sorta.
Unlike a typical zoner like mega man, he isn't trying to keep you out of his bubble the entire match. He doesn't have the constant stream of projectiles to wall people for that long unless your name is little Mac or ganon (plant trampoline and laugh).

Instead, he uses his hydrant, fruit, and trampoline to compress the opponent's bubble. Pac-Man wants to gain all the freedom/control in the matchup while limiting his opponent's options, freedom, and stage control.

Against someone like diddy, you aren't camping the entire match. You just keep him out until you have the right fruit to put the pressure on. You can't go in on diddy without a hydrant to cover your approach or a fruit in hand. It's a mix between stage control, pressure, and temporary walling.

It's why sonic is so annoying...you have little time to set up since sonic can run through hydrants (wtf development team) so you have to set up trampolines to limit his stage control as fast as possible. Every match I have with my training partner in this matchup lasts forever.

That's... actually really interesting. Makes me wish he was more effective. The only similar character I can think of is like, Duck Hunt. Any better characters share a similar archetype of heavy stage control? I suppose Diddy does to a degree, but it's not the same.

I always wonder about Pac Man. You watch a pro go at it with him and he can look like a very strong character, but other times he seems so feeble and weak. I hope he comes out of the meta somewhere strong. I always have fun watching him, if nothing else. My friends disagree, they think he's lame, but I see a dynamic and flashy character in there.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

That's... actually really interesting. Makes me wish he was more effective. The only similar character I can think of is like, Duck Hunt. Any better characters share a similar archetype of heavy stage control? I suppose Diddy does to a degree, but it's not the same.

I always wonder about Pac Man. You watch a pro go at it with him and he can look like a very strong character, but other times he seems so feeble and weak. I hope he comes out of the meta somewhere strong. I always have fun watching him, if nothing else. My friends disagree, they think he's lame, but I see a dynamic and flashy character in there.

Well, you could gather a bunch of people and shout out at the world through social media and w/e that pacman needs buffs.

Worked for bayo in contrast.

 

[Aaron1997]

Wintermelon43 Mario in my opinion is skill match-up. Cape is annoying but smart Pacman players will never throw fruits at him mindless. Trampline cuts off a lot of his reward and we have superior range. He also struggles to kill outside of Hard reads and Back throw kills. Mario ends up winning because his grab game vs ours is a difference maker in this match-up. Is hard but is far from horrible. Heck I think Dr.Mario might be better then Mario vs Pac.

 

[blackghost]

since when is ryu have average mobility? he has an actual air dash.

 

[SaltyKracka]

since when is ryu have average mobility? he has an actual air dash.

Didn't you know? Air acceleration is the single most important factor in determining a character's aerial mobility. It's far more important than top air speed. Why, I daresay any character with aerial acceleration that low has the worst aerial mobility in the game.

/s

 

[Yikarur]

Didn't you know? Air acceleration is the single most important factor in determining a character's aerial mobility. It's far more important than top air speed. Why, I daresay any character with aerial acceleration that low has the worst aerial mobility in the game.

/s

I think I disagree. If you're jumping forward with your ground jump you already start with a very high air speed (not sure about the values tbh) and you can use your double jump to reverse your momentum completely. For that reason I think air acceleration isn't even that important.

 

[TDK]

Well, you could gather a bunch of people and shout out at the world through social media and w/e that pacman needs buffs.

Worked for bayo in contrast.

Hasn't worked for Jigglypuff, has it?

 

[BSP]

There's a lot to be typed...

But let me start with saying I'd be dumbfounded if a character that is known to have trouble KO'ing beats a character that regularly KOs at 70% and gets you there with ~4 hits/confirms

 

[Nu~]

I agree with most of these except a couple.

First of all, I'm not sure how fox is a good match-up for us. We destroy him off stage if we can get him there which is easier said then done. He out buttons us and we cant keep him out forever. Unless theres something I'm not getting. I don't see it

Trampoline ruins his ground game and makes his approach inconsistent. Galaxian and z drop combos mess up his life onstage and he loses in mid range pretty hard. Try PP dtilt's in neutral as well. The disjoint makes our spacing game against him pretty great. Nair OoS makes it unsafe for him to touch our shield without spacing incredibly well.

Either I getting lucky with some of the Sonic's I play or the way I play Pacman is just good vs Sonic. I don't see how we lose to him. Yes goes though Hydrant like's its nothing but stuggles to do much the moment we start Z-dropping something like Melon or Key. I've Beaten Sonic Players that I feel e better then e because I got Key in hand and they couldn't do much about it.

Have you fought a sonic that will camp you out? Z drops make his life hell, but a sonic that gets the lead and runs away all match is tough. We have few ways to get to him in that scenario. Also, it's hard to get z drops going considering he gets to us so quickly.

Doubly terrible if he takes your fruit.

@RK Joker nair is frame 3 btw

There's a lot to be typed...

But let me start with saying I'd be dumbfounded if a character that is known to have trouble KO'ing beats a character that regularly KOs at 70% and gets you there with ~4 hits/confirms

The same one that laughs as he can't even get over a trampoline safely. This how most zoners beat ryu.If ryu can't get in, he has trouble. There's a reason the matchup is only slightly our favor. We die if we mess up and get too close too often.

Not to mention, fair -> key and DA -> bell work wonders

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Hasn't worked for Jigglypuff, has it?

Your group hasn't screamed loud enough...

Maybe if you made a vid about the troubles of jiggly and make it go viral or something, then the Dev team would take notice.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think I disagree. If you're jumping forward with your ground jump you already start with a very high air speed (not sure about the values tbh) and you can use your double jump to reverse your momentum completely. For that reason I think air acceleration isn't even that important.

You lose a ton of stage control jumping away like that though, especially if you don't have short multijumps. Depending on how you do it you're could end up in the perfect position to be juggled. Never mind the fact that with low acceleration your jump away is going to be incredibly predictable too. FADC is cool but not really a proper replacement...

 

[Nu~]

is usually considered one of Pac-Man's worst matchups, he should switch with Sonic. Also Fox is probably even too.

Wrongly considered so.

There are many pacman mains that still try to camp Mario out for some odd reason.
Aaron1997 already said a lot, but the grab difference isn't all that important to me considering we play an anti-gab game to begin with. Mario struggles to get his reward while we can get ours without having to confirm hits from too close up. Cape is annoying without smart projectile use. Hydrants are better used as a stationary wall to buy time than as something to launch at Mario.

If Mario spams shield at kill percent, I'd say camp his ass or keep the pressure on until he realizes that he can't win taking the passive route from behind. Z drop keys are awesome against shield campers

 

[meticulousboy]

I remember Abadango doing well against pre-patch Diddy. Granted, he basically had to aim for time outs, but still.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but "optimal" Pac Man is a pressure-based character in some matchups, but a camper in others?

Sounds accurate.

 

[Megamang]

Just because people complained, and then something happened, does not mean those complaints are the sole reason. Stop acting like you know balance better than everyone, if only these fools would listen to your ideas instead of just walking through the social-mediaverse and hearing who screams louder maybe we'd have a better game!


No, wrong. the game has been balanced well. Yes, people complained and something changed. Every time something changes, someone somewhere has once said something related. That doesn't mean they caused it. That is a really elementary example of confirmation bias at best.


People complain about things that are frustrating to fight. God help us if the devs decide to take out an infuriatingly strong tool if it doesn't work as intended, or works better than intended.

And please don't respond to this lamenting about your bad char / your ganondorf. Our balance isn't perfect, but each patch has been better than the last.

 

[SaltyKracka]

I think I disagree. If you're jumping forward with your ground jump you already start with a very high air speed (not sure about the values tbh) and you can use your double jump to reverse your momentum completely. For that reason I think air acceleration isn't even that important.

Try highlighting my original post.

 

[Xandercosm]

I know this is fairly late, but I wanted to find some way to shoehorn pacman into the discussion and this was a rather nice opportunity

While not exactly "meme" status, Pac-Man has certainly vanished into thin air after Abadango and Koolaid dropped him. Hell, I dropped him too around that time because I thought he was hopeless. Half of his tools could be used against him, he couldn't kill reliably, and he had no way to really threaten shields.
(My previous fall out with the character for further context)


But recently, I thought that perhaps I was overstating his weaknesses. Attacks cancelling out items is nothing new, and is frankly, irrelevant if you know what you're doing. No one is going to constantly smack your projectiles out of the sky unless you're spamming them randomly or not following up on your hydrant launches. Many of Pacman's traps may have counterplay, but the counterplay changes each time. No opponent will be able to get out of every trap every time. We're fighting humans, not people. Even then, we still have dangerous set ups that work no matter what such as DA -> bell -> side B. Hell, we can even imitate kamemushi's metal blade jab lock kill setup with ANY fruit besides the orange and Galaxian. The character can thrive even with matchup experience. He still struggles with shields, but hydrant pressure (when you follow up on it and capitalize) and z drops in close range help mitigate this a tad. Killing is a bit of an issue, but if we focus on gimping or jab lock fruit kills, it won't hurt as much.


Also, the meta is very kind to pacman right now so he may have a chance to compete with the big boys if someone steps up to the plate.

If I take @Trifroze 's list of perceived top characters:


I see a light at the end of the tunnel for pacman. A nerfed Bayonetta, cloud, shiek, and ZSS are music to Pac-Man's ear holes (? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯¿) because this means that he has very few characters left in his way.

Now for the controversy

Mega Man's spread according to theory and some results (correct me if I'm wrong Megamang )

Mega man beats:
Mega man goes even with:
Mega man loses to:

Sounds like a future high tier to me.


Compare this to Pac-Man's spread:

Pac-Man beats:
Pacman goes even with:
Pacman loses to:

Interesting.....

So challenge me. If you think I'm crazy, I'll explain each matchup if asked and even link videos. Don't want to fill up this post with matchup analysis on each character.

In what world does Pac-Man beat Diddy?

Sheik won't drop out of the top 5, come on man. I don't think she's #1, she might not stay #2. And admittedly there is very little margin of error for her players. So it goes in a well-designed game, where the best characters are not also easy to play. I can't think of many other characters who don't face similar or greater predicaments.

EDIT: This is a response to Xandercosm , if that wasn't clear.

Explain why, though, when so many other top tiers do her job much better. Looking for a good neutral? Diddy and Cloud have your back. Looking for a good combo game? Mario and Fox are standing right there. Want an amazing recovery? ZSS and Meta Knight will satisfy you. Also, Diddy has pretty much every great attribute packed into one character (sans recovery). So, you get a top 5 or even top 10 that looks a lot better than bashed and bruised Sheik does. At least, that's my take on it.

 

[meticulousboy]

Or just pick Peach for chasing DI.

 

[Nu~]

In what world does Pac-Man beat Diddy?



Explain why, though, when so many other top tiers do her job much better. Looking for a good neutral? Diddy and Cloud have your back. Looking for a good combo game? Mario and Fox are standing right there. Want an amazing recovery? ZSS and Meta Knight will satisfy you. Also, Diddy has pretty much every great attribute packed into one character (sans recovery). So, you get a top 5 or even top 10 that looks a lot better than bashed and bruised Sheik does. At least, that's my take on it.

It's like you skipped all of the explanations lol

 

[C0rvus]

In what world does Pac-Man beat Diddy?



Explain why, though, when so many other top tiers do her job much better. Looking for a good neutral? Diddy and Cloud have your back. Looking for a good combo game? Mario and Fox are standing right there. Want an amazing recovery? ZSS and Meta Knight will satisfy you. Also, Diddy has pretty much every great attribute packed into one character (sans recovery). So, you get a top 5 or even top 10 that looks a lot better than bashed and bruised Sheik does. At least, that's my take on it.

But... Sheik has all of those traits at the same time. You can't seriously be saying she is anywhere lower than top 3. Character is still godlike, she just requires insane consistency.

 

[meticulousboy]

Doesn't Diddy Kong outpace Pacman?

 

[Xandercosm]

But... Sheik has all of those traits at the same time. You can't seriously be saying she is anywhere lower than top 3. Character is still godlike, she just requires insane consistency.

Explain to me why exactly rather than just claiming that she is "godlike". This is exactly what I am saying. after over a year of this character absolutely dominating our meta, it's really really hard for people to let go of that. It's like something we have come to just accept as a given: Sheik is the best and that's that.

I think it will take a while to let go. It could be months even. But it will happen because people want to win and that means using only the best characters for a lot of top players...

It's like you skipped all of the explanations lol

If you want explanations, I can give them. Diddy and Cloud both have superb neutrals with their amazing frame data, great range, and of course Diddy's iconic banana. Sheik's neutral, on the other hand, now suffers due to her nerfed F-air (which was like most of why her neutral was so good before) and her new lack of threatening throws, as well as nerfed needle range. As for Mario and Fox, there is no way you could argue that Sheik has a better combo game than them any longer. Her damage output is way lower, her nerfed F-air limits her in this respect too, and the fact that her throw combos lose usability much earlier now also hurts her combo game greatly.

She has a lot of tools, but so do all the top tiers. The difference is that the other top tiers do better at using those tools than she does after all these nerfs.

 

[Ghostbone]

I think I disagree. If you're jumping forward with your ground jump you already start with a very high air speed (not sure about the values tbh) and you can use your double jump to reverse your momentum completely. For that reason I think air acceleration isn't even that important.

I mean aerial acceleration is still important. When Ryu or Roy jump you know exactly where they're going to land. There's no spacing mixups, rarely any cross-up mixups (then can't surprise you by going behind you because you should have already realised that when they jumped), and it's a lot more important than people give it credit for.

It's one of the reasons I don't rate Ryu highly. His main grounded approach tool is just walking up to you and d-tilting lol, everything else is punishable. If he goes to the air, he's very easy to intercept/outspace. Most characters can short hop backwards and whiff punish Ryu's aerials, he can't fade backwards to avoid this once he's committed to the jump, he has to use his double jump which can be risky/make him give up stage control.

 

[Illusion.]

RE: "nobody else needs to be nerfed"

I get that hasn't won anything and doesn't dominate the meta, but can you really say it isn't ridiculous that Luma and up-air are as strong and versatile they are? If you watch the Momocon set of Vinnie vs. Lord Mix, 's up-air killed , the heaviest character in the game, at 67%. Or how about when Mix was on the edge and Luma was doing the infinite jab, none of Bowser's aerials, or anyone's really, are able to stop it due to the invincibility. Mix literally could not move, he was being trapped on the ledge by a jab, a jab that can kill and has negligent endlag. At one point, Mix had to recover high to avoid that setup and got a grab... then Luma killed him for it. Then we have Luma's hitboxes possibly coming out while is in shield or when 's aerial hitboxes haven't even come out yet.

Everything silly about Luma was showcased in that set. Yes, Mix won the set, but that doesn't disregard the fact that /Luma is poorly designed. Players were beating and even while they were broken. I don't see how anyone can seriously say this character is completely fine.

 

[Nobie]

Let's actually talk about aerial mobility for a bit because I think people like to use terms like air speed and air acceleration but might not fully understand the implications of each.

First, some clarification, which you can also find courtesy of Kurogane Hammer:

Air Speed is the absolute top speed your character travels horizontally in the air.
Air Acceleration is how quickly they reach that top speed.

Having high Air Speed is good. Having high Air Acceleration is also good. However, they benefit characters in different ways.

High Air Speed means that you can cover large distances in the air more easily, meaning you can quickly advance on an opponent's position, or you can quickly retreat a large distance away. It's also great for pursuing an opponent while you're in an advantageous state, because it's harder for them to get away from you. This is part of what makes Ryu or Mewtwo's advantages so scary, because they can cover a huge amount of distance in a pretty short amount of time, and just continue to bully you with aerials. Not only that, but if you start moving forward from a jump, you can get to top speed more quickly, negating some of the negatives of having a low Air Acceleration.

However, a character with High Air Speed and Low Air Acceleration has trouble changing directions. When characters like Ryu, Roy, or Mewtwo jump forward, they have a harder time pulling back, meaning that they pretty much have to commit to the direction they're jumping. If you out-space them, their only hope is maybe use their second jump to go backwards, but that means using up an important resource. Imagine that they jumped backwards to avoid your counterattack, and you knock them away from the ledge. They now have to recover with one less option (their second jump), meaning they're easier to edgeguard. Moreover, if they get hit, they have a harder time avoiding immediate follow-ups because they can't begin moving out of the way as quickly.

High Air Acceleration, then, controls your character's ability to weave back and forth in the air. What this means is that good Aerial Acceleration is great for spacing and for fighting in neutral. Characters like Palutena and Peach are able to constantly change their position in the air in subtle ways, and this means that they have an advantage in neutral. Why is Peach's float so scary for a lot of characters? Because she can quickly attack, then retreat, then attack again, and you have to just deal with it. If they're attacked and get sent flying, they can avoid immediate follow-ups more easily by shifting their momentum in the air and fooling the opponent as to where they'll go next.

But a character with High Air Acceleration and Low Air Speed means that they cannot cover distances as easily, and this means that it becomes harder to follow up on opponents that have been swatted away. It also means that, if you're hit and the opponent knows which way you're gonna go, it's harder for you to just outright avoid them because they can just catch up to you and strike.

Now, take a character like Mega Man who has both high Air Speed and high Air Acceleration. His ability to quickly re-position himself in neutral, catch the opponent in a bad spot, and his ability to juke out of the way of juggles at higher percents is top notch and is one of the reasons (other than his projectiles) why his zoning game is so strong.

As for those characters with low Air Speed AND low Air Acceleration... well, sorry.

 

[Ghostbone]

Bayo was never broken at top level which was proven by results but lets not get into that.

Almost every character looks broken when they're up against BOWSER. His hurtbox is massive which means he's insanely easy to juggle, edgeguard, string, etc. He has no gtfo moves in the air and no landing options in general. So yea rosa's rapid jab will look disgusting vs bowser but it's because bowser is a terrible character, not because luma's rapid jab is broken.

Don't be above Rosa if you don't want to get uair'd, also a lot of the time that people die to luma uair they could have DI'd into rosa's uair. It's a move you have to deal with and a defining strength of the character, but just because a character has a standout move doesn't mean it should be nerfed.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Just because people complained, and then something happened, does not mean those complaints are the sole reason. Stop acting like you know balance better than everyone, if only these fools would listen to your ideas instead of just walking through the social-mediaverse and hearing who screams louder maybe we'd have a better game!

It's basic history. Who was cried about the most? Diddy, sheik, Rosa, sonic, luigi, ZSS (IIRC), Bayonetta, cloud, etc... And then look at what happened.

The devs listens to us (as in, the fans. Not *just* this website and stuff) whether it's believable or not.

No, wrong. the game has been balanced well. Yes, people complained and something changed. Every time something changes, someone somewhere has once said something related. That doesn't mean they caused it. That is a really elementary example of confirmation bias at best.

And yet, there's a BUNCH of undertuned characters are need buffing. And the fact that the things we complained about got changed just really confirms to me that it's not Just a big coincidence since they explicitly said they look upon the Internet, websites, YouTube and stuff for feedback (was posted in the earlier competitive impressions thread).

People complain about things that are frustrating to fight. God help us if the devs decide to take out an infuriatingly strong tool if it doesn't work as intended, or works better than intended.

It's just sad.

And please don't respond to this lamenting about your bad char / your ganondorf. Our balance isn't perfect, but each patch has been better than the last.

They can't talk about their mains being bad, but can talk about other character's tools being too strong...

 

[L9999]

snip.

Her needles are still the most irritating thing ever and can combo into BF. Sheik doesn't give a damn about anyone's approach options and she can approach as she pleases. Make a single mistake ->dash grab -> gonna get tilted repeatedily/Faired. Sit at the edge and % will skyrocket because Sheik doesn't give a damn about anyone's ledge options courtesy of her Nair/Fair. Want to gimp her? So sorry, you can't unless you hit her with a BS DSmash w/o a jump or do the frame 2 thing. Speaking of offstage, the moment you get there you won't come back, unless you are ZSS/Bayo/MK. Wanna jump? Uair/Fair plane. Wanna challenge Bouncing Fish? You can't, and that thing messes your position and steals jumps. Her throws may not combo as before, but they still net her BFs and advantageous positions.is not going anywhere outside top tier. And it has nothing to do with "she was the best for so long" She is, period. Only one that contest her is , but it is irrelevant whether he or she is the best because she is still going to win tournaments, she still has a superb neutral and she still wrecks most of the cast.

 

[Djent]

still has an incredible neutral after the needle nerf; it's just not a clear cut above everyone else's like it was before. Her advantage state is still well above average despite requiring a lot of work, and her disadvantage is great too. Other characters may outclass her in one of these areas, but AFAIK no one does in all 3. In fact, the list of chars that do so in just 2 is still pretty short. Diddy Kong yes, but he's #1 IMO. Cloud might (advantage yes, neutral maybe), but he's like #2 or #3. And while Rosa arguably does too, she has two clearly bad MUs that hold her back a bit. Mario and Fox have great advantage states but even now can't match her neutral, and disadvantage is no contest. You need to be fairly pessimistic to expand the list further (perhaps Sonic too? That's a hard sell). I can't see how she won't remain an excellent pick.

 

[Nu~]

Explain to me why exactly rather than just claiming that she is "godlike". This is exactly what I am saying. after over a year of this character absolutely dominating our meta, it's really really hard for people to let go of that. It's like something we have come to just accept as a given: Sheik is the best and that's that.

I think it will take a while to let go. It could be months even. But it will happen because people want to win and that means using only the best characters for a lot of top players...



If you want explanations, I can give them. Diddy and Cloud both have superb neutrals with their amazing frame data, great range, and of course Diddy's iconic banana. Sheik's neutral, on the other hand, now suffers due to her nerfed F-air (which was like most of why her neutral was so good before) and her new lack of threatening throws, as well as nerfed needle range. As for Mario and Fox, there is no way you could argue that Sheik has a better combo game than them any longer. Her damage output is way lower, her nerfed F-air limits her in this respect too, and the fact that her throw combos lose usability much earlier now also hurts her combo game greatly.

She has a lot of tools, but so do all the top tiers. The difference is that the other top tiers do better at using those tools than she does after all these nerfs.

Oh, my apologies. I wasn't referring to that part of the post. I was referring to my previous explanations of diddy Kong losing to pacman

Pacman's gameplan shuts diddy's down pretty well. The combination of hydrant walls, fruit, and pacman being hard to grab after a banana toss (pacman bounces on the floor when a banana is thrown at him making the grab timing tricky) makes this matchup pretty tough for Diddy Kong. Pacman is never pressured into approaching diddy's Fair wall, and can hide behind hydrants and while he charges up the right fruit. Doesn't help that one dropped hydrant offstage spells death for diddy if he's using his Up B.

Sorta.
Unlike a typical zoner like mega man, he isn't trying to keep you out of his bubble the entire match. He doesn't have the constant stream of projectiles to wall people for that long unless your name is little Mac or ganon (plant trampoline and laugh).

Instead, he uses his hydrant, fruit, and trampoline to compress the opponent's bubble. Pac-Man wants to gain all the freedom/control in the matchup while limiting his opponent's options, freedom, and stage control.

Against someone like diddy, you aren't camping the entire match. You just keep him out until you have the right fruit to put the pressure on. You can't go in on diddy without a hydrant to cover your approach or a fruit in hand. It's a mix between stage control, pressure, and temporary walling.

It's why sonic is so annoying...you have little time to set up since sonic can run through hydrants (wtf development team) so you have to set up trampolines to limit his stage control as fast as possible. Every match I have with my training partner in this matchup lasts forever.

these are the explanations I gave

 

[Illusion.]

Bayo was never broken at top level which was proven by results but lets not get into that.

LOL

Don't be above Rosa if you don't want to get uair'd, also a lot of the time that people die to luma uair they could have DI'd into rosa's uair. It's a move you have to deal with and a defining strength of the character, but just because a character has a standout move doesn't mean it should be nerfed.

Oh yay, the dumb argument of "don't get hit" returns.

You can't seriously be justifying a move killing the heaviest character in the game at criminally early percents.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Bayo was never broken at top level which was proven by results but lets not get into that.

Almost every character looks broken when they're up against BOWSER. His hurtbox is massive which means he's insanely easy to juggle, edgeguard, string, etc. He has no gtfo moves in the air and no landing options in general. So yea rosa's rapid jab will look disgusting vs bowser but it's because bowser is a terrible character, not because luma's rapid jab is broken.

Don't be above Rosa if you don't want to get uair'd, also a lot of the time that people die to luma uair they could have DI'd into rosa's uair. It's a move you have to deal with and a defining strength of the character, but just because a character has a standout move doesn't mean it should be nerfed.

The fact that Bowser even made it as far as he did seems to indicate that he's not a terrible character, though he does have some pretty big weaknesses. Rosa for her part is clearly not a broken character, as she has significant weaknesses and bad MUs, but she is a polarizing one, so toning down her jankier aspects while granting her compensatory buffs elsewhere might be a good idea should there be a future patch. Personally I'd make buffing low tiers more of a priority than changing anything about high tiers, as right now they seem to largely be well balanced, but I wouldn't be opposed to a few tweaks to the more polarizing high tiers if done correctly.

 

[Xandercosm]

bowser is a terrible character

>Just got 4th at a major
>still a terrible character

Ok then...

Her needles are still the most irritating thing ever and can combo into BF. Sheik doesn't give a damn about anyone's approach options and she can approach as she pleases. Make a single mistake ->dash grab -> gonna get tilted repeatedily/Faired. Sit at the edge and % will skyrocket because Sheik doesn't give a damn about anyone's ledge options courtesy of her Nair/Fair. Want to gimp her? So sorry, you can't unless you hit her with a BS DSmash w/o a jump or do the frame 2 thing. Speaking of offstage, the moment you get there you won't come back, unless you are ZSS/Bayo/MK. Wanna jump? Uair/Fair plane. Wanna challenge Bouncing Fish? You can't, and that thing messes your position and steals jumps. Her throws may not combo as before, but they still net her BFs and advantageous positions.is not going anywhere outside top tier. And it has nothing to do with "she was the best for so long" She is, period. Only one that contest her is , but it is irrelevant whether he or she is the best because she is still going to win tournaments, she still has a superb neutral and she still wrecks most of the cast.

What I'm trying to explain is that there are a lot of characters that do her job better and have a better mix of attributes. Get kills easier, have better combo games, better damage output, and even a better neutral in some cases. Diddy doesn't do just ONE thing better than Sheik. He pretty much does everything better. I just feel like Diddy will become the new Sheik and all the other top tiers will slowly creep up past her as well.

I will also add that it may be a good idea to agree to disagree since this seems as though it is mostly a matter of personal opinion. This is really just my speculation of what the future will hold.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Momocon is not a major lmao

Sheik deals with zoners so much better than Diddy can, and she still has kill confirms just not out of grab (just like Diddy/Cloud/Ryu etc.)

Diddy relies on controlling the middle but most zoners don't care because they can build their little wall somewhere else and don't have to challenge his long hitboxes since they usually have something that outranges it or just have certain character traits that beat out popular Diddy options (). Sheik just gets in their zone and breaks them down little by little, not allowing them to set up.

Zoners Sheik does better against than Diddy:

 

[C0rvus]

Explain to me why exactly rather than just claiming that she is "godlike". This is exactly what I am saying. after over a year of this character absolutely dominating our meta, it's really really hard for people to let go of that. It's like something we have come to just accept as a given: Sheik is the best and that's that.

I think it will take a while to let go. It could be months even. But it will happen because people want to win and that means using only the best characters for a lot of top players...

She is still one of the safest and most mobile characters in a game where those are two of the most sought after meta traits. She still has top tier neutral. Needles still lock down more than half of the stage. She still has safe ways to convert into kills (needles > BF), dtilt or ftilt > up air, etc.). I dunno what else you want me to say, really. It's pretty evident that's she is a top character. Hell, if nothing else, she boasts a winning matchup against Cloud, by however small an advantage it might be, it matters. Especially when so many people consider him to be top 3.

Maybe I'm crazy and overrating her because she's being played by incredibly skilled players, but that still is telling of her relevance. Obviously she's not nearly as dominant and she requires more on-point decision making and matchup knowledge than before. Honestly, that's a good thing.

 

[Pazx]

Pacman's gameplan shuts diddy's down pretty well. The combination of hydrant walls, fruit, and pacman being hard to grab after a banana toss (pacman bounces on the floor when a banana is thrown at him making the grab timing tricky) makes this matchup pretty tough for Diddy Kong. Pacman is never pressured into approaching diddy's Fair wall, and can hide behind hydrants and while he charges up the right fruit. Doesn't help that one dropped hydrant offstage spells death for diddy if he's using his Up B.

You realise that this (bolded) is quite literally a non-factor, right? I do think Pac-Man does deceptively well against Diddy but including statements like that in the reasoning is basically saying you can beat Diddies by coasting on matchup inexperience. The rest of your post is somewhat solid although very vague and could apply to basically all of Pac's MUs.

 

[FullMoon]

Momocon is not a major lmao

Sheik deals with zoners so much better than Diddy can, and she still has kill confirms just not out of grab (just like Diddy/Cloud/Ryu etc.)

Diddy relies on controlling the middle but most zoners don't care because they can build their little wall somewhere else and don't have to challenge his long hitboxes since they usually have something that outranges it or just have certain character traits that beat out popular Diddy options (). Sheik just gets in their zone and breaks them down little by little, not allowing them to set up.

Zoners Sheik does better against than Diddy:

Do Luigi and Ness really count as zoners? Greninja I can kinda see but those two don't really strike me as zoners, especially because Ness's PK Fire is... not very good for zoning.

 

[C0rvus]

Ness is like, a turtling character. Maybe a half-grappler as well, which you could classify Luigi as too. Or perhaps these terms are pedantic and mean very little