Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[CanadianCourage]

Why the uncertainty on Lucario?

Hes hard for me to place because of aura and rage both being things.

 

[Das Koopa]

I don't agree that Meta Knight is solo-viable when the top two Meta Knight mains (Tyrant and Leo) both have secondaries that they semi-frequently pull out.

It partly depends on what you consider "solo-viable" and how it relates to the general nebulous term "viable" but I admit that when I think "solo-viable" I think of characters demonstrably shown to be able to win large-scale tournaments (or at least have very strong theory in this regard.)

 

[conTAgi0n]

Do whatever it takes to win, but I really hope they gore sonic in s5 and make him unplayable, because he drastically decreases the quality of every game he is in.

I hope for this just because it would be so canon, since going from amazing to absolute trash is exactly what happened to the Sonic series itself. I hear that some of the newer Sonic games that are actually decent though, so maybe they can make Sonic upper mid tier again in Smash 6.

W/e with this current topic, I've seen something on the MK discord that I wanted to show you guys: View attachment 108602View attachment 108603

Agree or disagree?

This argument gets trotted out a lot, but I think it's pretty flawed. His complaint is that viable characters should have a diverse array of good options, and nerfing these characters worsens or removes some of their options, resulting in the competitively viable characters having a less robust spread of options, thus making the game less competitively interesting in the name of balance.

The reason this line of thought is wrong is that nerfing or removing options actually can result in a spread of options that is effectively more diverse. For example, suppose a character has 5 decent kill setups, and 1 super amazing kill setup. That doesn't make for a very diverse option spread, because 99% of the time there is no reason to use any of the other 5 options instead of the super amazing kill setup, except maybe occasionally as a mixup. If you take that one super amazing kill setup and nerf it to be merely decent, or even remove it entirely, you are going to see a lot more diversity in that character's play style.

Something analogous happened with , which is why you saw people talking about how much more interesting Sheik players became to watch. People weren't just imagining things: with the dthrow 50/50s gone, Sheik players were forced to resort to a more diverse array of less reliable kill options.

My perception is that the nerfs they have given to top tiers in Smash 4 have made these characters' game plans less effective (relative to the rest of the cast) but also more diverse. And isn't viable characters having more diverse game plans exactly what he wanted?

My stance on buffs/nerfs is pretty simple. Stop. The game is fine right now. If the devs listen to people who complain, then you get a Battlefield 3(?) situation. People complained about the best guns and they got nerfed. Then they complained about the next strongest guns, and those got nerfed. The cycle continued until every gun was weak, and the game was a lot less fun or so the story goes.

The meta needs to develop and settle. Patch culture is bad for games, especially among the community. I wasn't around for competitive Brawl, but was the amount of whining and asking for balance this bad? I don't know. I wish it wasn't the bulk of the conversation all the time. I wish the game was done changing and we had confirmation of the fact, but I think the Smash devs are incapable of that.

This thread is for discussing competitive impressions. We should be analyzing high level sets, trying to hone in on characters, develop the meta, all that rot. There is some merit to making known what stands out as over-powered or potentially abusive, but the tone maybe ought to be more like, "hey, Ryu can kill you early off of his dtilt into tsrk. How can we play around this? Who excels at denying him from this range long enough to matter?" And there is some of that, and it's good.

Just think the salt levels are getting a bit out there. That's to be expected, people put a lot of emotions into this game. They can't always be positive.

My personal gripes about aside, I agree that there is probably nothing left that needs nerfing, and that the game would be fine if they stopped now. I do think that continuing cautious buffs for characters outside top and high tier would help the game, but it's not necessary and most likely is not happening.




Also re: the discussion from a few pages back, as a Bowser main myself I am sympathetic to @Trifroze 's complaint that his uthrow is a little over centralizing. I myself would rather have had a suite of buffs to his neutral tools. That being said, giving Bowser such a strong deterrent against shields makes his entire move set and game plan work a lot better, rather than simply skewing it towards grabs. Good Bowser play isn't going to just be a grab fest unless his opponent refuses to stop shielding and rolling.

As for Bowser killing at lower percents off just a few reads, most of what there is to say about that has already been said. I will just add that the whole idea behind heavy hitters is that they kill at lower percents with fewer reads. Just how low a percent they should be able to kill at, and just how few reads they should need, is a matter of taste. From a balance perspective, I'm sure everyone would agree that the superheavies are burdened with more than enough weaknesses to compensate for this inherent advantage.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Yo dawg I can't believe people are complaining about Bowser of all characters. Every character in the game aside from like Zelda has something to use that they won't get grabbed for. USE IT.

Yeah ok, dying to max uthrow > uair at 45% as Jiggs sucks, but it's no different to Ice Climbers of old:

Don't get grabbed.​

 

[ぱみゅ]

I don't agree that Meta Knight is solo-viable when the top two Meta Knight mains (Tyrant and Leo) both have secondaries that they semi-frequently pull out.

Tyrant never "abused" MK properly (read as: use the character's tools as effectively as possible), he had solid fundamentals and that alone, with a little aid of the staircase combo, granted him great results.
Leo got pretty far at GOML with MK alone, only switching against Mario (due to inexperience since there are no notable Marios in Mexico), and Diddy Kong that happens to be his worst matchup.

 

[Aaron1997]

@Mr. Johan I'm not sure how would Rise by Results alone. I haven't Seen or heard John #s doing anything notable since he beat Vinnie. (I think he beat Dabuz to I think?) Waveguider is your normal " I dominate this Region but Doesn't go to anything out side of my region" guy. I think that the top 32 at genesis is still in people heads even though RIN has been Awful ever since then. If Judge a charatcher by Results alone, would be considered Mid/High and would be bottom tier.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Nerfs to the top tiers created more creativity amongst their mains, relying on their imagination to get kills rather than one super strong option.

It is much easier to differentiate Mr. R's Sheik (ledge guarding and best recovery mixups) from Void's (PP's and combo extension) and Vinnie's (edge gaurding and safest neutral) and ZeRo's (patient play and then bursts of momentum/offense), Nairo's ZSS (almost always offensive) from Marss' (more conservative), M2K's Cloud (uses limit a lot/edgeguarding) from Tweek's (AC dairs/more aerial approaches) and Komirikiri's (holds onto limit), Nietono's Diddy (platform canceling side b's/flashier throw combos) from Zinoto (sticks to Diddy's intended gameplan/crawling/conservative) and so on.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Pretty sure John12346 moved to Corrin.

 

[warionumbah2]

MK is definitely not solo viable, he's the only one out of the top tiers that got nerfed to drift into irrelevance. Tyrant is leveling up his Sheik as shown in the norcal weekly and Leo is leveling up his marth(I like this) and 3-0d hyuga when his MK recently lost against him and switched to cloud granting him the W.

Tyrant can very easily go full Diddy with sheik as a secondary, but he has some silly attachment to this fictional character.

It was mostly cloud that took Leo far at GOML.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

W/e with this current topic, I've seen something on the MK discord that I wanted to show you guys: View attachment 108602View attachment 108603

Agree or disagree?

Whoever said that is really missing the mark. People will always complain, yes. Just because people complain the same doesn't mean a game is more or less balanced. Those people will always complain. They should be ignored. Patches will improve balance, and improve the enjoyment of the rest of the people who actually notice and appreciate the work the devs put in.

The question about whether we really know whether it's actually easier to nerf a few instead of buff many is dumb, too. It doesn't have anything to do with the way he questions the topic of people complaining. Of course it's easier to change a few characters than change everyone else minus those few characters. Do we really need proof of that concept?

Having an "engine" that allows players more options doesn't necessarily guarantee that those abundant options will help produce healthy gameplay as a result of better counterplay and checks and balances. For example in Melee, yes wave dashing and dash dancing and movement options like that give lots of characters ways to deal with things in certain MUs better, but it also increases the imbalance in the sense that some benefit from those more than others. Can we say that in general, a game with more rather than less options has a higher chance of resulting in a healthy future due to potential of counterplay and a non-stagnant meta? Yeah, you could argue that, because more things in a game means there's also more possibilities (and more possibilities may mean there is a higher chance in a healthy future).

But can't we also just stay on the track that Smash 4 is on, with the "limited engine" of Smash 4, and have the devs finish polishing up the game in such a way that we won't need to worry about finding counterplays to overpowered/degenerate/braindead/uninteresting things? For me, I would say they have been doing a great job for Smash 4. It is in an amazing place right now for a smash game. If they ever patch it any further (which I don't think is unlikely, though it may take a while for another patch depending on whether they want to take a break or not).

Let the devs finish polishing the game, instead of us relying on finding new tech to solve problems and imbalances. The meta will always shift around anyway, with rising styles, and people will need to figure out new styles or ways to deal with them. We don't need a "less limited engine with more options" that allows weird or extreme advanced techniques or drastic unwanted movement options to serve as the main source from which to solve problems. Let's just focus on the gameplay instead of relying or hoping on finding new tech to change things up.

 

[Ghostbone]

@Mr. Johan I'm not sure how would Rise by Results alone. I haven't Seen or heard John #s doing anything notable since he beat Vinnie. (I think he beat Dabuz to I think?) Waveguider is your normal " I dominate this Region but Doesn't go to anything out side of my region" guy. I think that the top 32 at genesis is still in people heads even though RIN has been Awful ever since then.

WFT has been pretty notable across the game's lifespan, two top 32 placings at evo, another one at genesis, all by different people. The character was also brought out by Anti a while back.

If Judge a charatcher by Results alone, would be considered Mid/High and would be bottom tier.

That's exactly where those characters should be placed lol. (I mean bottom is an exaggeration for yoshi but he's probably only as good or worse than those two characters)

People are just stuck with their opinions that were formed near the beginning of the game with these characters, ignoring metagame developments and patches that help them out. (or people learning how to deal with a character like what's happened with yoshi and captain falcon)

 

[outfoxd]

Duck Huny keeps popping up in Japanese top 8s like a cockroach and Dandy puts in work here from time to time. Still needs time to see how much can be chalked up to MU inexperience but my own previous fatalism about the character has been mildly revised.

He has to kill off reads but sometimes he tricks you into doing really dumb stuff.

 

[Xandercosm]

MK is definitely not solo viable, he's the only one out of the top tiers that got nerfed to drift into irrelevance. Tyrant is leveling up his Sheik as shown in the norcal weekly and Leo is leveling up his marth(I like this) and 3-0d hyuga when his MK recently lost against him and switched to cloud granting him the W.

Tyrant can very easily go full Diddy with sheik as a secondary, but he has some silly attachment to this fictional character.

It was mostly cloud that took Leo far at GOML.

The problem is that Meta Knight has become increasingly hard to play post-nerf. So, while he's still probably solo viable if you dedicate all your time to him, there are probably more appealing top tiers currently. Not to mention, Meta Knight is quite inconsistent due to having his main kill confirm taken away and not really having any backup ones to take its place. He has falling B-air jab locks and some situational mixups with U-air strings if the opponent doesn't DI, but they are all hard to pull off and only work under certain conditions.

So, while I would say that he is still top 15 (maybe even top 10) since he does have quite an exceptional all-around kit, he may become a bit irrelevant for the same reasons Pikachu is sort of irrelevant. Too hard to play for less reward than other top tiers, inconsistency, etc. I think he may still end up having a niche for the Rosa MU which could keep him decently played. We will have to see where his current players go with him and if anyone else picks him up.

 

[C0rvus]

Wii Fit Trainer is not solo viable. Numbers himself says Kirby is her worst MU (the very thought makes my skin crawl), and she loses demonstrably hard against Cloud and Pikachu. Many characters are -1 or worse for her, including Mario, Diddy, Marth, Rosalina, the Pits, the list goes on. She has players that do their best with her and put in the effort to win most of her matchups, but Numbers has a Corrin and Waveguider has a Greninja. And those are just regional results for the most part.

 

[TurboLink]

Out of curiosity, for characters that have bad CQC, what seems to make them fundamentally a better character? Just mobility? Looking at Toon Link & Mewtwo, that seems to be the case to an extent. Like if you just gave a character like Link more mobility (let's say his Melee aerial mobility), would he be quite a bit better than he is currently?

The problem with Link is that he's supposed to be a character that's strictly designed for mid-range combat but isn't nearly good enough at it.

 

[meticulousboy]

The problem with Link is that he's supposed to be a character that's strictly designed for mid-range combat but isn't nearly good enough at it.

Is it me, or does Samus, also a spam-centered character, do better in CQC than Link does?

 

[TurboLink]

Is it me, or does Samus, also a spam-centered character, do better in CQC than Link does?

Yes, her jab is 3 frames. But she doesn't carry a sword on her.

 

[|RK|]

The problem is that Meta Knight has become increasingly hard to play post-nerf. So, while he's still probably solo viable if you dedicate all your time to him, there are probably more appealing top tiers currently. Not to mention, Meta Knight is quite inconsistent due to having his main kill confirm taken away and not really having any backup ones to take its place. He has falling B-air jab locks and some situational mixups with U-air strings if the opponent doesn't DI, but they are all hard to pull off and only work under certain conditions.

So, while I would say that he is still top 15 (maybe even top 10) since he does have quite an exceptional all-around kit, he may become a bit irrelevant for the same reasons Pikachu is sort of irrelevant. Too hard to play for less reward than other top tiers, inconsistency, etc. I think he may still end up having a niche for the Rosa MU which could keep him decently played. We will have to see where his current players go with him and if anyone else picks him up.

Is solo-viability about difficulty of play? I'd think not. MK hasn't shown us solo viability at the top level lately, and so I don't see how we can keep him in (the very competitive) top 15.

 

[meticulousboy]

Yes, her jab is 3 frames. But she doesn't carry a sword on her.

Too bad Samus was lower on the tier list than Link when this thread started. But hey. Samus got buffed. That's fine with me.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

WFT has been pretty notable across the game's lifespan, two top 32 placings at evo, another one at genesis, all by different people. The character was also brought out by Anti a while back.

That's exactly where those characters should be placed lol. (I mean bottom is an exaggeration for yoshi but he's probably only as good or worse than those two characters)

People are just stuck with their opinions that were formed near the beginning of the game with these characters, ignoring metagame developments and patches that help them out. (or people learning how to deal with a character like what's happened with yoshi and captain falcon)

W-what?

Okay I used to be a big defender of results being everythin, but what? Duck Hunt and Palutena have a really hard time in top level. When you look at Yoshi and see his array of tools, he looks good. Just because nobody plays him doesn't mean he's low tier. However, they mean he should be placed a bit lower, not anywhere drastic (ie. Mid to high-mid).

Falcon not getting results is BS also. I mean sure he isn't actively played at every national, but there are 2 Falcon players in the top 50, who do amazing where they are and have a good amount of wins.

 

[Ghostbone]

Wii Fit Trainer is not solo viable.

Only a few characters in this game have ever been solo viable. It's a dumb term since it applies to such a small group of characters.

Okay I used to be a big defender of results being everythin, but what? Duck Hunt and Palutena have a really hard time in top level. When you look at Yoshi and see his array of tools, he looks good. Just because nobody plays him doesn't mean he's low tier. However, they mean he should be placed a bit lower, not anywhere drastic (ie. Mid to high-mid).

If those characters are getting results (Duck Hunt definitely is in Japan) it means they don't struggle at top level. That's what their results prove lmao. A character that does demonstrably struggle at top level is yoshi lol.

Falcon not getting results is BS also. I mean sure he isn't actively played at every national, but there are 2 Falcon players in the top 50, who do amazing where they are and have a good amount of wins.

Falcons results are way worse than you'd think by his tier placings.

 

[Xandercosm]

Is solo-viability about difficulty of play? I'd think not. MK hasn't shown us solo viability at the top level lately, and so I don't see how we can keep him in (the very competitive) top 15.

Well, representation is a big factor in determining viability. Difficulty often determines how much rep a character has, therefore it will effect their tier placement.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Is it me, or does Samus, also a spam-centered character, do better in CQC than Link does?

Samus can't actually spam beyond a certain level of play. The end lag on missiles is too long, 60 frames. It's not possible to keep up with the spam output of any of the other traditional zoners in this game, and largely the reason many people still believe the character sucks.
Missiles are used less for zoning and more as combo tools. If Samus did have 45 frame missiles she would instantly become a high tier threat. The character would have true zoning traps and combined with a very strong combo game.
Right now Z-air and abuse of dash-attack is the neutral. Super missiles are tertiary, situational and particularly good against players who don't realize their combo potential. Homing missiles remain candidate for the worst move in the game.

Samus' CQC is indeed much better than Link's. It's not just the speed of jab 1 but also the invincible Up-B OOS and to a lesser extent a considerably better d-tilt as well as up-air from SHAD.
That being said, Link owns the zoning game, again, because missiles are so poorly designed.

 

[meticulousboy]

I'm assuming Fatality is one of those 2 top C. Falcon players?

 

[|RK|]

Well, representation is a big factor in determining viability. Difficulty often determines how much rep a character has, therefore it will effect their tier placement.

Right, but lets take Ryu for example - he's much harder to play, and has way fewer successful reps. But it's clear that he's an amazing character. Sure this is in part because of Trela, but even that's one person. There is no one showing MK deserves a top 15 spot at the moment.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Solo viable( in no order)- Shiek,Ryu,Pits,Cloud,Mewtwo,Mario,Luigi,peach,Yoshi,Rosalina, Diddy Kong, Toon Link,Zss,Ike,Fox,pikachu,Lucario(?),greninja,Ness,Villager,Wii Fit,mega man, sonic, Captin Falcon.
My definition of Solo viable is a bit loose but it is" any character that can get top 16 to top 8, even factoring in any bad matchups". For example Falcon and Pits are very "honest" characters that could make these ranks even if they don't have any matchups highly in thier favour.

Your definition of "solo viable" is extremely generous and vague.

 

[meticulousboy]

Samus can't actually spam beyond a certain level of play. The end lag on missiles is too long, 60 frames. It's not possible to keep up with the spam output of any of the other traditional zoners in this game, and largely the reason many people still believe the character sucks.
Missiles are used less for zoning and more as combo tools. If Samus did have 45 frame missiles she would instantly become a high tier threat. The character would have true zoning traps and combined with a very strong combo game.
Right now Z-air and abuse of dash-attack is the neutral. Super missiles are tertiary, situational and particularly good against players who don't realize their combo potential. Homing missiles remain candidate for the worst move in the game.

Samus' CQC is indeed much better than Link's. It's not just the speed of jab 1 but also the invincible Up-B OOS and to a lesser extent a considerably better d-tilt as well as up-air from SHAD.
That being said, Link owns the zoning game, again, because missiles are so poorly designed.

I think Link has the better Up Air. That is to say we are comparing who has the better KO potential with an Up Air. A lingering hitbox is nothing to sleep on either on Link's Up Air.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I think Link has the better Up Air. That is to say we are comparing who has the better KO potential with an Up Air. A lingering hitbox is nothing to sleep on either on Link's Up Air.

Like you say, it depends how you view "better".

Link's Up Air is better in a few ways, with the fact it has more raw power, better range, and disjoint. Like you said, it's lingering hitbox is nothing to sniff at either.

Samus's Up Air is better in other areas. Samus's Up Air has far better combo potential, comboing into itself or other moves (Link for example, can't string his Up Air into itself, and then into his Up B. On some stages, Samus can even KO the opponent if the conditions are right, such as having the platforms to extend 4 or so Up Airs). Samus's Up Air is less laggy on all fronts, being safer overall. As mentioned above, with Samus being able to SHAD and Uair, it gives it more utility in that area.

 

[meticulousboy]

Like you say, it depends how you view "better".

Link's Up Air is better in a few ways, with the fact it has more raw power, better range, and disjoint. Like you said, it's lingering hitbox is nothing to sniff at either.

Samus's Up Air is better in other areas. Samus's Up Air has far better combo potential, comboing into itself or other moves (Link for example. can't string his Up Air into itself, and then into his Up B. On some stages, Samus can even KO the opponent if the conditions are right, such as having the platforms to extend 4 or so Up Airs). Samus's Up Air is less laggy on all fronts, being safer overall. As mentioned above, with Samus being able to SHAD and Uair, it gives it more utility in that area.

All true stuff. Link just capitalizes better off of an air dodge read.
Back to the CQC thing, I just wish Link can be played without being so heavily reliant on spam, unlike Samus who can actually work around overuse of projectiles.

 

[wedl!!]

i don't understand how characters consistently performing well at high/top level proves they don't do well at high/top level

 

[Shady Shaymin]

For someone who apparently bears the triforce of courage, Link sure does an awful lot of sitting back and throwing things from a distance.

I think Link would work much better if his CQC game actually played like a real swordie. It seems like Link lacks the spacing game that makes Marth, Ike, Corrin etc. so good at mid range. Having this would give him more tools for zoning and controlling space after the projectile range has been broken past, but it would still maintain his flaw of being weak once actually rushed down.

 

[teddystalin]

Why are we so hung up on solo-viability? With a cast this large and (relatively) balanced compared to other Smash games, a backup character for bad MUs or mere comfort is practically a necessity at top level play. 42 of the PG top 50 have tournament level secondaries or pockets; of those, around 6 are just for fun/occasional local use (Seagull Joe's , Nick Riddle's , etc). And yet we still talk about solo viability as if it's a true test of a character's worth, while it often seems more like a handicap in reality. Rather than stigmatizing the very existence of a secondary/pocket, we should strive to look at how each are used - something we've had a mixed record on in the past. Claiming that Abadango's use of Meta Knight takes away from the success of his Mewtwo at Pound come off as small-minded, but Leo's use of Cloud and Marth has largely overshadowed the accomplishments of his MK... despite the fact that neither of the former two managed to take a set outside of pools at GOML. How we treat each case seems to come down to how each fits into our perceived narrative of each character - M2 ascending, MK descending - rather than reflecting reality. Basically we shouldn't discredit a character when a player chooses not to use them for any number of reasons, we should instead credit the character they do use.


(Sorry if this rambled a little; I'm still pretty sleepy.)

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

i don't understand how characters consistently performing well at high/top level proves they don't do well at high/top level

It's fairly simple why that can be the case. Tier lists and the like are based on MUs most of the time, and in some brackets they can not face counter match-ups, or the opponent can be inexperienced in the MU to help carry underwhelming characters.

Using my own character, KID Goggles and Kirby. He has good results CPing, but suddenly he faces Nairo who looked like he knew the MU and lost 3-1. This happens with other kirbys getting unlucky sometimes and losing to Luigi/Sonic, but being able to make it farther with bracket luck.

Bracket luck exists, and I don't mean it to discredit wins, but these worse characters are worse because of these bad MUs they struggle to win, but if these characters don't show they can reach finals.

 

[Jamurai]

Link actually has some pretty good spacing moves: Fair, Bair, Ftilt and jab come to mind. Fair in particular is formidable, I don't wanna be anywhere near those sword swings. His zoning is good; I feel like his neutral game plan isn't as dysfunctional as everyone assumes, his main problem is his disadvantage state. No combo breakers, fairly large humanoid target, lacklustre recovery because of very poor airspeed and meh Up-B. Although this is salvaged somewhat by Zair.

 

[Zelder]

I think that every time someone says "I can't believe people are complaining about Bowser's grab/Ryu's confirms/mario's uptilt/Snake's sexy ass/etc.", a little tiny guillotine should come down and chop off your posting hands. Usually, it's one person who is making whatever hella egregious argument the thread is currently batting around like a cat playing with a dying mouse, so it probably helps to address them directly. Or if you're making an argument about the broader Smash community having an issue with something, then duh. The Smash community, like all online communities, is a plurality of voices screaming into the void, and if you looked hard enough, you could probably find someone complaining about anything. Heck, I remember in this very thread someone was complaining about ROB's reflector. ROB's! Reflector!! One of the most pointless moves to ever exist!!! Exclamation Points!!!!

I just demand specificity in my complaints! It is a brain thing. And I recognize that by making this post, I've become the very thing I'm railing against. I'll go prepare my tiny guillotine right now.

 

[Vyrnx]

is on life support, carried by his lesser known players.

I didn't actually want to say anything, but this is bugging me. No other character could win a large tournament with multiple top level attendants and then have a post made about them two days later saying they are on life support. Actually think about it, no other character could have this happen to them, and in this thread there were about three posts at the same time saying this. And how is Pikachu being carried by his lesser known players?

I think Link has the better Up Air.

Samus's uair is amazing. Off of rising and falling uair Samus can always confirm ~20+ damage. Rising uair combos into itself and up b for 30 damage or with platforms can kill at ZSS percents. It also combos into basically all of her other moves including charge shot, or can set up an air dodge read into dair. Falling uair to up b or dtilt is easy damage and can be done out of shad or the same sh as bair, uair to utilt can lead to huge damage especially if they don't tech, and falling uair to jab 1 to fsmash is a true kill combo. Falling uair to ftilt can set up CS tech chases as well. It's also frame 5 and has 12 frames of landing lag, autocancels from a sh (which may have unexplored utility), and is just in general really spammable. Link's uair kills and lingers, but Samus's is just a lot better in general.

 

[TurboLink]

I think Link would work much better if his CQC game actually played like a real swordie. It seems like Link lacks the spacing game that makes Marth, Ike, Corrin etc. so good at mid range.

What exactly do you mean by this?

 

[C0rvus]

I wouldn't say I am hung up solo viability, perhaps I should've been more general when dissenting Wii Fit Trainer. Honestly, my post should've been more like, "this character does not seem very good." She gets some decent results, but I think she is not good. Lower mid tier.

Solo viability is very uncommon. This game has a lot of characters, and a good number of them are viable. Counterpicking is the name of the game. Plus, I'm not the type to just play one character anyway. I almost prefer a game with lots of not-quite solo viable characters.

Who can be played solo? ...?

 

[Thinkaman]

"Solo-viability" has this implicit compound-ambiguity that more or less prevents any consistent or meaningful discussion of the concept in any concise, comparative way. It simply means something too different to everyone.

No, this isn't an invitation to tell us all what your definition is. Don't make me make this a red topic, I swear...



Anyway, we had a bunch of posts about buffing, nerfs, and balance. Consider me #triggered, so everyone is in for a mod-splaining.

The big secret is to not think about character balance in terms of power level like how you discussed your favorite Dragon Ball Z characters in middle school, but about differentiation. Or the characters', in the term Sakurai uses, dynamic range.



Take Ness. One of the big defining traits about Ness is that Ness has great throws. The best throws, especially b-throw.

If Ness b-throw was the same as every other character, that would be lame. All the characters in the game would be the same in that way. Why even have Ness in the game?

On the other hand, what if Ness b-throw instantly killed any character at 15% damage? That would be really stupid, and it doesn't have anything to do with power level! Even if every character had something that powerful, a 15% insta-kill b-throw would still be incredibly stupid.


So an under-tuned b-throw is bad, and an over-tuned b-throw is bad the opposite way. Logically, there exists* some ideal intermediate value between the two that gives us the best compromise of giving Ness a tool that is simultaneously unique and empowering to his character identity, without degenerating gameplay to where Ness consists only of that move.

*Sometimes a game mechanism can be flawed in its design such that no middle ground exists to be found, but in this context we can regard that as somewhat rare. This applies to very, very few moves that exists in Smash 4 1.1.6.


Once we understand this, buffing and nerfing isn't that complicated or a valid source for ideological consternation:

• When a unique trait exceeds its optimal value, we bring it down.
• When a unique trait falls short of its optimal value, we consider bringing it up.

Why do we only consider it? Because often times, if we are seeking to improve a weak character that is experiencing problems, more of the same medicine that isn't working in the first place might not solve the problem. (Sometimes it can! But usually alternative solutions that still fit within the characters creative space are needed.)



A lot of really silly people like to bring up Melee as some sort of grand refutation of balance as a virtue; this crops up about once every two months or so.

All I'll say is that Melee's high level play has only survived because of the reasonable balance that exists solely in the Fox/Falco/Marth/Sheik/Puff microcosm, and the handful of viable matchups select high-tiers have against those. Melee would not still be relevant if it consisted entirely of Fox dittos, and I don't think anyone would claim otherwise. Brawl was poisoned by having a single outlier character, even though his standard deviation from the rest of the cast as a whole was less than than the top five Melee characters.

It's foolish to act like Melee's balance is anything but terrible, and it's equally foolish to act as if Melee has survived in spite of that balance. The less dramatic truth is that the balance within the top-tier subset of Melee that is played competitively is simply good enough.



IN CONCLUSION: The only moves in Smash 4 that "exceed their optimal value" to define their character, and probably warrant a small nerf, are Limit Cross Slash and maaaybe Ryu cheese--which is exactly what Shaya was already saying. An argument could be made for DK/Bowser throw combos, but I'm having trouble being sympathetic. (Contrast with Luigi, whose crap was far more egregious and antithetical to his design.)

Given that future patches appear unlikely and will not be based on discussion in this thread, I would advise not wasting time on such thoughts here.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

What exactly do you mean by this?

Link's range (and frame data, coincidentally) are worse than a good majority of the viable swords in this game. His damage output is good and the master sword feels very meaty, but he would rather have range and better tilts for spacing.