Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Strong-Arm]

I do feel like as of now we should just look at the game as of now rather than assuming that patches are coming. This may very well have been the final patch. I mean we can argue for another 10 pages or so over this kind of stuff or have a decent discussion over something that isnt speculation based.

 

[meticulousboy]

I wasn't in this thread from Day 1. I don't know how this Ryu debate started. Is it necessary to dwindle over kill confirms? It's what makes Ryu who he is.

 

[Mario766]

I don't think the nerfs to Bayo, Luigi, Sheik or Diddy made the game any less fun than it was.

Diddy killing at 70 off a grab was bull**** for a character with an overwhelming neutral game, bananas which forced defensive options and getting multipe up-airs off a grab at low percents, which would deal upwards to 23 damage when fresh. 3 grabs and you were almost at kill percent.

Luigi had mostly the same thing, high damage, best frame data on average, a projectile which almost forced you to take the hit to not be in frame disadavntage, and kill conversions off a grab which lasted what felt like forever with very little counter-play.

Bayo could 0-death people, had incredible safety on approach options, a counter which basically meant a death situation if you got hit by it at all, and the ability to use these options for almost free because of low lag, nerfs to Witch Time, dABK, Heel Slide and up-b fixed these issues and force Bayo players to actually think about their conversions, not get them almost handed to them for free.

We all know Sheik, high safety, best projectile in the game, insane recovery, insane combo game...true kill conversions and 50/50s off grabs? Jeez, it seems like everyone and their mother has them. It isn't really fun to have an option that basically says "and you're dead" just because you get grabbed.

 

[UberMadman]

Why are people even complaining about Ryu anyway? Trela is doing great, sure. Where are the other Ryu results? Have I missed something? I'm pretty sure that Cloud, Sheik, Diddy, Mario, Sonic, Fox, ZSS, and Rosa have still been consistently doing better than him. Yes he's a good character, no he doesn't need nerfs. He still has an average at best neutral compounded by limited mobility, linear recovery, and no grab confrims.

 

[SubconsciousRose]

You'd think that so soon after a patch that so only touched one character, there'd be more discussion of the actual tangible version we have now being 1.1.6.

But this apparently translates to various outcries of "I don't like the thing this character has/does." If you're not completely keen on how a character works then fine, but I don't see how these comments being everywhere contributes to much of anything at all right now.

It'd be cool if we could actually talk about 1.1.6 itself right now instead of all the "what if" scenarios, no?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
oy vey

 

[meticulousboy]

I don't think the nerfs to Bayo, Luigi, Sheik or Diddy made the game any less fun than it was.

Diddy killing at 70 off a grab was bull**** for a character with an overwhelming neutral game, bananas which forced defensive options and getting multipe up-airs off a grab at low percents, which would deal upwards to 23 damage when fresh. 3 grabs and you were almost at kill percent.

Luigi had mostly the same thing, high damage, best frame data on average, a projectile which almost forced you to take the hit to not be in frame disadavntage, and kill conversions off a grab which lasted what felt like forever with very little counter-play.

Bayo could 0-death people, had incredible safety on approach options, a counter which basically meant a death situation if you got hit by it at all, and the ability to use these options for almost free because of low lag, nerfs to Witch Time, dABK, Heel Slide and up-b fixed these issues and force Bayo players to actually think about their conversions, not get them almost handed to them for free.

We all know Sheik, high safety, best projectile in the game, insane recovery, insane combo game...true kill conversions and 50/50s off grabs? Jeez, it seems like everyone and their mother has them. It isn't really fun to have an option that basically says "and you're dead" just because you get grabbed.

That last part sounds more like to me.

 

[Mario766]

Ness is a weird case. Yes, back throw sucks.

But the character has such dumb weaknesses that it makes up for it.

 

[ARGHETH]

Why are people even complaining about Ryu anyway? Trela is doing great, sure. Where are the other Ryu results? Have I missed something? I'm pretty sure that Cloud, Sheik, Diddy, Mario, Sonic, Fox, ZSS, and Rosa have still been consistently doing better than him. Yes he's a good character, no he doesn't need nerfs. He still has an average at best neutral compounded by limited mobility, linear recovery, and no grab confrims.

We actually started out talking about how people would be complaining about Ryu and TSRK next...and then it actually happened.
People are complaining about him because they don't like that he has a confirm into a move that has invincibility on startup and kills early, ignoring the difficulty of getting that confirm.

It'd be cool if we could actually talk about 1.1.6 itself right now instead of all the "what if" scenarios, no?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
oy vey

That'd just mean even more Bayo talk...

 

[meticulousboy]

We actually started out talking about how people would be complaining about Ryu and TSRK next...and then it actually happened.
People are complaining about him because they don't like that he has a confirm into a move that has invincibility on startup and kills early, ignoring the difficulty of getting that confirm.

So it kills early. But that should already be compensated because, like you said, one has to work hard for the confirm. Sounds balanced enough.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I don't think the nerfs to Bayo, Luigi, Sheik or Diddy made the game any less fun than it was.

Diddy killing at 70 off a grab was bull**** for a character with an overwhelming neutral game, bananas which forced defensive options and getting multipe up-airs off a grab at low percents, which would deal upwards to 23 damage when fresh. 3 grabs and you were almost at kill percent.

Luigi had mostly the same thing, high damage, best frame data on average, a projectile which almost forced you to take the hit to not be in frame disadavntage, and kill conversions off a grab which lasted what felt like forever with very little counter-play.

Bayo could 0-death people, had incredible safety on approach options, a counter which basically meant a death situation if you got hit by it at all, and the ability to use these options for almost free because of low lag, nerfs to Witch Time, dABK, Heel Slide and up-b fixed these issues and force Bayo players to actually think about their conversions, not get them almost handed to them for free.

We all know Sheik, high safety, best projectile in the game, insane recovery, insane combo game...true kill conversions and 50/50s off grabs? Jeez, it seems like everyone and their mother has them. It isn't really fun to have an option that basically says "and you're dead" just because you get grabbed.

Nerfs aren't a bad thing, but they can be really excessive and extremely unnecessary (like people wanting Ryu diddy rosa cloud and Mario nerfed wth). As of now, there's not a LEGITIMATE reason to nerf anymore characters unless you're trying to redesign them (like making diddy way weaker overall but buffing the heck out of bananas and popgun rapid fire and dual). Buffs are the only thing we need at this stage and it's not wanted enough, but I should expect that.

 

[Shaya]

Sheik still has kill confirms though.
Difficult to achieve consistently (because it's hitbox kill confirms that are very rage/% dependent, not grabs) but many nevertheless.

Bair/nair (primarily, also fair) and aerial needles into bouncing fish, dtilt/ftilt into up air. Even grenade has it's ledge shenanigans.
Up Tilt into needles works at a certain percent too.

Hit confirms that kill are necessary for a game where air dodging and shielding are this strong.

---

I'd say top characters are kinda top for a reason, but balance and design constraints from around or shortly after release have shifted to now where more drastic changes have happened.
I remember how long it took me to get over sheik's bair no longer killing, still have eternal sadness here.
Having a lot of strong options allows for multiple different play styles, while weakening certain things to keep them in line (difficulty is a consideration too, hard characters getting nerfed so they cannot achieve more than a simpler one is something I despise but it happens in every modern game) results in more cookie cutter / flow charty game play being necessary to keep up.
"well we're only good if we do xyz, while before I could A,B and from time to time do Y and I'd love my character sooooo much because of it"

BUT THAT'S WHY I've always said that the balance team's goals should be to make every move of a character feel good to use (and for a long time this is where I thought they were at, their nerfs usually came 1:1 with compensation in another move, and from patch to patch weak characters would have certain things buffed, rarely everything), but in the last few instances it's been pretty one sided take over giving. They can nerf the power of certain tools, but don't leave them weaker and with an array of almost-never-used options at the same time, please.
I used to say I'd take boost kick and flip jump nerfs for a more usable down tilt and dash attack; they did nerf both (nair was the best set up for flip kick and now scales too awkwardly for it to be consistent follow up) but didn't buff either of the two 'notably weak moves'.

It's frustrating, but my character still has a pretty high power level.
Just it's obvious there are other characters out there with similar power levels and more diversity in options. They either were buffed midway-ish through the patch cycle (Mewtwo, Marth) when they were most generous and move-by-move focused or were lucky from very early on (Mario, Sheik).

I don't expect further patches, and I dislike that we cannot talk about a character being good without it being "only complaining" or "wanting nerfs" (although it's easy to make suggestions on what could change to 'fix' them as analogies of the argument, this isn't new to patched games but very few felt confident to do so in the brawl era) .if something's really good at this stage, that means they should probably be higher on the tier list - not everyone getting salty, emotional and/or political about their character in this game.

 

[meticulousboy]

Ness is a weird case. Yes, back throw sucks.

But the character has such dumb weaknesses that it makes up for it.

Well, Ness probably has the best Up Air in the game. It's fast and hard to air dodge ON REACTION because of its frame data. That's strength number one right there. It's an aerial version of Mario's Up Smash.

 

[Strong-Arm]

I mean this thread is infamous for going in circles of people bickering and complaining with little actual meaningful discussion taking place. I would like to think that this thread would eventually discuss things outside of speculation. Complaining does absolutely no good and doesnt help anything make any progress. We could talk about ya know the actual competitive state of the game and such
OR
spend the next 10-20 pages arguing about how Ryu/Mewtwo/etc are broken all of a sudden and make absolutely no progress.
Up to you guys.

 

[BananaBake]

Well, Ness probably has the best Up Air in the game. It's fast and hard to air dodge ON REACTION because of its frame data. That's strength number one right there. It's an aerial version of Mario's Up Smash.

I don't think people should be playing on reaction anyway. This game is all about reads.

 

[meticulousboy]

I mean this thread is infamous for going in circles of people bickering and complaining with little actual meaningful discussion taking place. I would like to think that this thread would eventually discuss things outside of speculation. Complaining does absolutely no good and doesnt help anything make any progress. We could talk about ya know the actual competitive state of the game and such
OR
spend the next 10-20 pages arguing about how Ryu/Mewtwo/etc are broken all of a sudden and make absolutely no progress.
Up to you guys.

Ryu is who he is. I'm proud of the buffs Mewtwo received. Now that I covered both, let's move on.

I don't think people should be playing on reaction anyway. This game is all about reads.

A game that is dependent on reads. I am not discrediting that. However, there are some moves and instances where I beg to differ.

 

[Mario766]

I don't believe nerfs need to happen either, unless they are retooling strength into other aspects.

Hell

I don't even expect another patch, I think we're done. This is the game we're playing until the scene dies.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Out of curiosity, for characters that have bad CQC, what seems to make them fundamentally a better character? Just mobility? Looking at Toon Link & Mewtwo, that seems to be the case to an extent. Like if you just gave a character like Link more mobility (let's say his Melee aerial mobility), would he be quite a bit better than he is currently?

 

[Mario766]

If you have bad CQC, what if you can avoid CQC entirely without being in advantage?

That's what Toon Link and Mewtwo do, they pretty much just ignore CQC. One uses projectiles, the other has the range to attack without getting into CQC range.

 

[C0rvus]

Really wish LordMix's sets versus Vinnie and VoiD were recorded. I just wanna see how he did it, man. Bowser might just be on my radar if stuff like that is possible. I was honestly unsure if the character was worth pursuing, but Mix makes it look like he is. Viable heavies would be nice, since I'm starting to suspect they are my style.

Is there merit to such a character at high/top level? Can a Bowser player bridge the gap in his bad MUs by focusing on the player he's facing, and chip at holes in their play? His reward is pretty good, and rage comebacks seem to be the standard for him in a few MUs. A style dependent on reads and knowing their opponent; could it work?

Maybe not, just because the opponent is doing the same to you; against a more flawed character they will have an easier time punishing the chinks in your armor.

 

[Strong-Arm]

This game is far more balanced than ppl realize. People in general like to say a mid tier can never do anything notable, which is untrue. I hope to see more "mid tiers" rise up in the following months.

 

[Blobface]

W/e with this current topic, I've seen something on the MK discord that I wanted to show you guys: View attachment 108602View attachment 108603

Agree or disagree?

Neither.

The idea of Balance conforming to an idealogy of mostly nerfing or mostly buffing is honestly farcical. Release balance of any competitive game is bound to be haphazard, so a balance team needs to be able to empirically judge each and every balance problem as its own independent problem. Balance should be handled by a series of questions like: Is what we're adding/removing in line with the way we want this character to play? Is it both fun and interesting to use and fun and interesting to counterplay? Is it relatively in line (not identical!) with similar options on other characters, and the meta as a whole? And especially important in Smash's case, what effect does this have on each different level/type of play?

If you think Patches should only buff, you think every character should've been buffed up to prepatch Diddy's level.

If you think Patches should only nerf, you think every character should've been nerfed down to Jigglypuff level.

If you think Patches should mostly nerf or mostly buff, you're picking out specific nerfs or buffs as appropriate based on a variety of factors; which is exactly what I described above. Yes, we can say such and such nerf was unwarranted or such and such buff was really good, but those should be judged purely on their merits alone. The overarching scheme of how many nerfs and buffs are given has nothing to do with it.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Really wish LordMix's sets versus Vinnie and VoiD were recorded. I just wanna see how he did it, man. Bowser might just be on my radar if stuff like that is possible. I was honestly unsure if the character was worth pursuing, but Mix makes it look like he is. Viable heavies would be nice, since I'm starting to suspect they are my style.

Is there merit to such a character at high/top level? Can a Bowser player bridge the gap in his bad MUs by focusing on the player he's facing, and chip at holes in their play? His reward is pretty good, and rage comebacks seem to be the standard for him in a few MUs. A style dependent on reads and knowing their opponent; could it work?

Maybe not, just because the opponent is doing the same to you; against a more flawed character they will have an easier time punishing the chinks in your armor.

Can we please have @LordMix come in here and explain what happened in that set? I'm just so tired of being in the dark. He couldn't stop talking before, can't he spare some words now, since they're all we have on how the match went down.

 

[DblCrest]

Well I'm still curious to know how top players deal with Sonic's spin dashing shenanigans and how Luigi racks up damage and gets KOs.

 

[Trunks159]

I mean this thread is infamous for going in circles of people bickering and complaining with little actual meaningful discussion taking place. I would like to think that this thread would eventually discuss things outside of speculation. Complaining does absolutely no good and doesnt help anything make any progress. We could talk about ya know the actual competitive state of the game and such
OR
spend the next 10-20 pages arguing about how Ryu/Mewtwo/etc are broken all of a sudden and make absolutely no progress.
Up to you guys.

I swear I always see people come on here to complain about the arguments we're having as Trifroze and Shaya and such direct discussion. Instead of criticizing the discussion saying we could be having more meaningful discussions, you could always
start a meaningful discussion.

Seriously, this thread doesn't exist for any sort of end goal, it's for discussing whatevers being dicussed which just so happens is usually about character balance (go figure this is a tier list thread).

 

[meticulousboy]

Then let me give my input on my main: Peach. She's fine where she stands in the meta. Too bad the technicality behind her is what makes her underrated and played as often. Feel free to chime in.

 

[Trifroze]

When Diddy was nerfed, many of his players were happy that they now had actual incentive to use someone else if they wanted to do well in the game (and then 90% of them went to Sheik), while some players thought the nerfs were too much and felt negative about it. Everyone else on the other hand was unanimously glad that the easy to pick up 20:80 matchup of their main was finally gone.

When Sheik and ZSS were nerfed, some of their players felt negative that they'd now have to try to enjoy weaker versions of what they were used to, and some felt positive about being forced to develop their characters harder. Everyone else: unanimously glad that two dominant characters became a considerably smaller roadblock for their mains.

It can blow when your character becomes weaker, but the net benefit of nerfing dominant characters is always vastly on the positive. Just have to make sure the characters you're nerfing are actually dominant and not the result of one player grinding 8 hours a day getting good. The balance team has done this fine, although I agree every move on every character's kit should have a purpose and shouldn't be 100% outclassed by another move in the same kit.

Also good luck on making every character powerful when power is relative. Melee has powerful characters only because the rest are so weak in comparison. Even if you try to define power as something you "just feel", you're going to feel similar power against you every time, often applied in a way that greatly frustrates you, and you'll be back wishing for a game where every character is "honest". Smash 4 has a pretty good balance of both right now.

 

[meticulousboy]

Even the smallest of changes count. This game is the most balanced currently. No one character is truly OP this time around.

 

[CanadianCourage]

Here guys I shall "Balance" the whole cast for you all because you can't stop complaining about everything. The goal here is to slightly inhance or tone down a fighter. The goal is to make the characters feel right.
Mario- no changes
Luigi- no changes
Peach-buff counter
Bowser-no changes
Yoshi- Make shield good
Rosalina- nerf luma up air/ multijab
Bowser Jr.- Improve his movement speed
Wario- no changes
Game and watch- add back that bucket trick from brawl.
Dk- No changes
Diddy-No changes
Link- Slight movement speed buff
Zelda- make Phantom faster/fix its hit boxes. make her fire easier to control/ use.
Shiek-no changes
Gannon- make flame choke untechable
Toon Link- no changes
Samus-Fix jab, make up air a bit better
ZSS- No changes
marth- bring back double fair, tiny buff to Sb and DB.
Ike-no changes
Robin-Movement buff
Kirby-no changes
DDD- Make gordo reflected only by moves that deal 5% or more
Meta Knight- No changes
Mac- no changes
Fox- no changes
Falco- speed up lazers to be a bit less then 3/4 of fox lazers
Pucavhu- no changes
Charizard- Improve his jump height and air mobility.
Lucario- no changes
Jigglypuff- Improve air speed, make rest kill at 40, make up tilt combo into rest at 75-135%.
Greninja-NERF HIM TO THE GROUND!!! jk no changes.
Duck Hunt- buff gunman knock back,fire speed and range.
Rob- no changes
Ness- make back throw kill at 80% no rage
Captin falcon-buff falcon punch knock back and damage.
Villager- make it so if he pockets items, tbe owner can make another one.
Olimar- buff number of pikman to 4, make his recovery faster
Wii Fit- make her "janky" hit boxes not as janky
Doctor Mario- Increase damage and knockback scaling on all moves, lower base knock back on all his moves
Dark Pit- no changes
Lucina- Give her double short hop fair, better DB and shield breaker,also give her more shield stun.
Shulk- Nerf all monando arts but give him auto cancels and more damage across the board.
Pacman- Improve aerial attacks shield safety
Mega Man- Improve pellet range by 12%
Sonic- Make spin dash not go "Reereeree"
Mii fighters- Can't say without knowing if they get mii moves, size choice and so on.
Mewtwo- weight buff to Kirby weight, Buff up throw to kill at 125% no rage, 100 max rage.
Lucas- small damage buffs
Roy- Improve shield safety a touch but still unsafe in shield
Ryu-Make rage Shoryuken kill @ 65% and no rage at the current percent.
Cloud- nerf nair damage by 2% add more knock back, nerf limit cross slash kill percent by 12%
corrin- no changes
Bayonetta- make dive kick combo, make SDi multiplier 1.6 so you can mash out just not for free.

 

[meticulousboy]

Here guys I shall "Balance" the whole cast for you all because you can't stop complaining about everything. The goal here is to slightly inhance or tone down a fighter. The goal is to make the characters feel right.
Mario- no changes
Luigi- no changes
Peach-buff counter
Bowser-no changes
Yoshi- Make shield good
Rosalina- nerf luma up air/ multijab
Bowser Jr.- Improve his movement speed
Wario- no changes
Game and watch- add back that bucket trick from brawl.
Dk- No changes
Diddy-No changes
Link- Slight movement speed buff
Zelda- make Phantom faster/fix its hit boxes. make her fire easier to control/ use.
Shiek-no changes
Gannon- make flame choke untechable
Toon Link- no changes
Samus-Fix jab, make up air a bit better
ZSS- No changes
marth- bring back double fair, tiny buff to Sb and DB.
Ike-no changes
Robin-Movement buff
Kirby-no changes
DDD- Make gordo reflected only by moves that deal 5% or more
Meta Knight- No changes
Mac- no changes
Fox- no changes
Falco- speed up lazers to be a bit less then 3/4 of fox lazers
Pucavhu- no changes
Charizard- Improve his jump height and air mobility.
Lucario- no changes
Jigglypuff- Improve air speed, make rest kill at 40, make up tilt combo into rest at 75-135%.
Greninja-NERF HIM TO THE GROUND!!! jk no changes.
Duck Hunt- buff gunman knock back,fire speed and range.
Rob- no changes
Ness- make back throw kill at 80% no rage
Captin falcon-buff falcon punch knock back and damage.
Villager- make it so if he pockets items, tbe owner can make another one.
Olimar- buff number of pikman to 4, make his recovery faster
Wii Fit- make her "janky" hit boxes not as janky
Doctor Mario- Increase damage and knockback scaling on all moves, lower base knock back on all his moves
Dark Pit- no changes
Lucina- Give her double short hop fair, better DB and shield breaker,also give her more shield stun.
Shulk- Nerf all monando arts but give him auto cancels and more damage across the board.
Pacman- Improve aerial attacks shield safety
Mega Man- Improve pellet range by 12%
Sonic- Make spin dash not go "Reereeree"
Mii fighters- Can't say without knowing if they get mii moves, size choice and so on.
Mewtwo- weight buff to Kirby weight, Buff up throw to kill at 125% no rage, 100 max rage.
Lucas- small damage buffs
Roy- Improve shield safety a touch but still unsafe in shield
Ryu-Make rage Shoryuken kill @ 65% and no rage at the current percent.
Cloud- nerf nair damage by 2% add more knock back, nerf limit cross slash kill percent by 12%
corrin- no changes
Bayonetta- make dive kick combo, make SDi multiplier 1.6 so you can mash out just not for free.

What exactly did you want to be buffed on Toad? Damage? Base knockback? Knockback growth?

 

[ぱみゅ]

I still think the weight nerf on Sheik was a bit too unfair.
And half of the decisions on Bayonetta were also wrong.
But y'know, #opinions

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Question: Do we even have a solid consensus on the MU spreads for most of the Top/High Tier characters with themselves?

(and possibly a few more)

Also, whatever happened to ? I haven't seen him being talked about in awhile. How is he vs the top characters?


I think that this sort of discussion would be very beneficial at this point. Or at the very least, it would make the MU spreads more known and possibly more agreed upon. Plus, I would like it if the thread took a break from balance patch discussion and other stuff like "janky" kill confirms and whatnot.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I think they would have said something about it being the last patch if it was the last patch but, nevertheless, I think the game is in a good place right now. In my opinion...

Viable solo :(?)
Reasonably viable (1 or 2 genuinely bad match ups so secondary not always necessary):

It could be argued that up to 30 characters in this game can reasonably and consistently rank or possibly even win mid or high level tournaments. That's pretty damn good when more than half the cast can be taken inherently seriously at tournaments higher than locals. This doesn't even take into account how often even low tier characters in this game cause upsets too so, aside from possibly buffing the bottom and low tiers, this game is already starting to feel pretty comfy.

 

[Mario766]

Corrin solo viable?

The placings and rep don't show it.

 

[CanadianCourage]

What exactly did you want to be buffed on Toad? Damage? Base knockback? Knockback growth?

All of it I find that it is the most lackluster of all the counters and is quite useless.

 

[meticulousboy]

All of it I find that it is the most lackluster of all the counters and is quite useless.

Not useless! I have used that many times to edgeguard opponents that have hitbox recoveries, like Link, Corrin, Luigi if he uses Side B, and others. Essentially, it's useful for punishing people for recovering.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Reasonably viable (1 or 2 genuinely bad match ups so secondary not always necessary):

Gonna have to respectfully ask for you to elaborate on this one.

I asked a similar question last Wednesday and only got one response for it, so I'm open for clarity. Is it solely because of Waveguider's and John#s's results?

 

[CanadianCourage]

Solo viable( in no order)- Shiek,Ryu,Pits,Cloud,Mewtwo,Mario,Luigi,peach,Yoshi,Rosalina, Diddy Kong, Toon Link,Zss,Ike,Fox,pikachu,Lucario(?),greninja,Ness,Villager,Wii Fit,mega man, sonic, Captin Falcon.
My definition of Solo viable is a bit loose but it is" any character that can get top 16 to top 8, even factoring in any bad matchups". For example Falcon and Pits are very "honest" characters that could make these ranks even if they don't have any matchups highly in thier favour.

Not useless! I have used that many times to edgeguard opponents that have hitbox recoveries, like Link, Corrin, Luigi if he uses Side B, and others. Essentially, it's useful for punishing people for recovering.

If it put them into free fall on hit then it would be good I guess.... That sounds fun.

 

[L9999]

Then let me give my input on my main: Peach. She's fine where she stands in the meta. Too bad the technicality behind her is what makes her underrated and played as often. Feel free to chime in.

Change underrated with unappealing.

Corrin solo viable?

The placings and rep don't show it.

There is that japanese Corrin from a while ago that got 7th(?).

 

[CanadianCourage]

Gonna have to respectfully ask for you to elaborate on this one.

I asked a similar question last Wednesday and only got one response for it, so I'm open for clarity. Is it solely because of Waveguider's and John#s's results?

To be honest it more then likely is.

 

[meticulousboy]

Solo viable( in no order)- Shiek,Ryu,Pits,Cloud,Mewtwo,Mario,Luigi,peach,Yoshi,Rosalina, Diddy Kong, Toon Link,Zss,Ike,Fox,pikachu,Lucario(?),greninja,Ness,Villager,Wii Fit,mega man, sonic, Captin Falcon.
My definition of Solo viable is a bit loose but it is" any character that can get top 16 to top 8, even factoring in any bad matchups". For example Falcon and Pits are very "honest" characters that could make these ranks even if they don't have any matchups highly in thier favour.

Why the uncertainty on Lucario?