Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Dre89]

Dre89

But the mixup potential from banana is just too good. Also this ignores the rest of his moveset, like bair/fair shield pressure, d-tilt, and side-b. Also his damage racking game is top-tier material. Combined with an abusive neutral, he has very easy ways to force his gameplan on others and quickly get kills by constant pressure that many players often cannot deal with properly. Adding a kill confirm to this mix does not sound very balanced to me.

The mixup potential from nana is fairly limited when you acknowledge that both Diddy and the opponent have to be on the ground to get any worthwhile reward from hitting with the nana. He also loses all other offensive options except for his specials when he has a nana in hand.

Yes he has good spacing options, but if he's using them then he doesn't have a nana in hand. That's the trade-off.

 

[R3D3MON]

Dre89

If he doesn't have nana he can go back to spacing with aerials and just fishing for grab because his movement options are good. There is so much Diddy can do without banana and banana just makes his neutral even more abusive. Of course this won't be a problem if he didn't have a kill confirm from 2 throws and one of the safest and quickest tilt in the game...

 

[Nobie]

L9999

All the evidence is in KuroganeHammer.com. Like I said just looking at his tilts and aerials he might as well have the best frame data, along with many of his aerials having gigantic hitboxes.

The way to contest grabs is fast(er) moves.

Throwing out fast moves against heavies is par for the course in many situations.

Luigi, on the other hand, has the lowest average moveset frame startup in the game. You want to get into a War of Buttons with Luigi? Good luck.

Add in fireballs, and you have a totally different context.

The IRONY.

The clarification should be, Luigi has the best startup on average, Ryu has the best frame advantage on hit. That difference explains a lot, though.

I think if your complaint is that Ryu has what Luigi lost, you never quite understood the issue with Luigi.

Ask yourself this: How does Ryu get the up tilt? How does Ryu get the down tilt? I think it's not right to call Ryu's neutral bad, or super good. Rather, it's versatile, but lacks a go-to option that smothers the opponent.

That's what Luigi had with fireball -> grab. Some characters could beat it, but it was just a really good approach that worked all of the time. On top of that, Luigi had tremendous damage-building potential and still does. In exchange, he lost his super reliable kill confirms.

 

[Nu~]

Some people try to make assumptions and "analysis" by just looking at results posted here, patch notes, and some reddit videos. A lot of people don't watch full tourneys to see the character's true strengths and weaknesses and that's really sad.

Unfortunately, results have become more important to people than the reasons behind those results.

It's a lot easier for people to go:
"X mid tier got 5th?? Well what are we doing?? He must be a high tier now!"
Mid/low level laziness

 

[Megamang]

Yea, Megaman is defensive and has some very powerfully tuned buttons. And he does beat Sonic.


My point was beside all of that though. I just dislike Sonic as a character. I don't understand why he is designed, seemingly only to be frustrating to fight. My main gripes, as I said, are that the spindash hop is invincible and that he can shield during its charge. This has nothing to do with his games, and is just strange design choice, in my humble opinion.


Im not defending Mega, I just don't like seeing Sonic do well. Nothing personal to his players. Megaman has a zone/break his zone dynamic going on in most MUs. Sonic's dynamic is 'you know how winning gives you an advantage? lets boost that by 1000x and give the character that is the best at running away a silly confirm tool that is safe, invincible in totally un-intuitive ways'. Mega is doing something loyal to his game, Sonic could have been many many things, but instead he feels stupid to fight. And even Ally has to totally change the way he fights to beat a single button.


Yea, you should have to change based on MUs. Yea, play to win. I just don't like how his kit is so, so tilted towards spindash. There is nothing in the sonic games that would lead me to believe he should be able to shield during charge, or that his little hop at the beginning is invincible. People still don't know its invincible, because it doesn't make any sense that it is.


He could be different, thats all im saying. Doesn't matter, its the game we have. But ill never cheer for a sonic. Charge -> shield ad nauseum is not compelling gameplay for anyone involved.

 

[Vyrnx]

Ryu having the best frame data in the whole game? Better than characters like Sheik, Luigi, Zero Suit Samus, Mario, Diddy Kong, Fox, and whoever else? All of those characters? I need to see some kind of evidence to back that up. Or is that an exaggeration?

If it's only one of the best and not just the best then that's pretty nitpicky. It's pretty obvious that Ryu's frame data is in the same tier as all of the characters listed and an argument could be made that he has the very best. He has the lowest average landing lag on aerials, and startups sub frame 10 on all normals except fsmash. Not to mention the existence of moves like dtilt (edit: what's the IASA on this move?) and utilt that come out on frame 2 and 3 respectively with 13 and 9 frames of endlag after the hitboxes end. It's almost cheating to mention Shoryuken.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Unfortunately, results have become more important to people than the reason behind the results.

It's a lot easier for people to go:
"X mid tier got 5th?? Well what are we doing?? He must be a high tier now!"
Mid/low level laziness

Not to mention all the intricacies that actually happen in game like staling, rage, baits, punishes, habits, spacing, tech, openings, positioning, etc. So much knowledge is lost out.

Why I hate posts like "So and so's move is frame 15, therefore you shouldn't get hit by it because human reaction blah blah blah.."

Like 80% of interaction in smash bros is based off anticipation, not reaction.

 

[Nobie]

Oh yeah, about how it's not fair that Mewtwo has kill confirms:

Where was all this when Mewtwo was a perceived low tier? Many of those combos and kill confirms still existed?

I understand that Mewtwo's improved mobility and safety makes this a bit different, but now that Mewtwo can properly defend itself it suddenly can't have the things that define the character as a glass cannon?

Also, now that I think about it, this makes me realize why Mewtwo never got a combo down throw like so many people hoped.

Mewtwo has kill confirms off of attack, and has kill throws, but does not have kill confirms off of throws. This is super important because otherwise the character might actually be broken.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

So, I've been out of the game for a while. Could someone give me a tl;dr of what I've missed?

You missed a lot and I know people have covered stuff, but I feel like going over it.

got nerfed and is not longer the biggest threat
Lord Mix beat Vinnie and Void at Momocon. Also some japanese Bowser does well with him.
is still lost with other characters
don't think anything big has happened
lost with Bowser Jr.
M2K beat Zero 3-0 at GOML. Considered Best character by some people
MAny people are demoting her to a counter pick character, although YOH from Japan placed well with her as a solo main, but results are meh. Also Esam picked him up and beat NAKAT with Corrin only 3-0 at Pound. Also Ryuga picked her up
One of them beat Trela and has been popping up at some tournaments recently
is still lost with others
Considered as a potential #1
Larry is still placing well
don't know what is going on with this guy tbh.
DHD is still doing GREAT in Japan with Yousan
still lost
Got 3rd at GOML but Trela destroyed Larry recently.
Not much
Was on the rise because of istudying but is not slowly depleting
San got 9th and GOML with Ike, but RYO is still lacking
#NoBuffsforthePuff
A kirby took Mr.R to last hit on Game 5 at Pound.
got 9th at GOML and took Nairo to game 5
Europe results, don't know much about him
He had been placing pretty decently, but not the best Nothing major
Been on a huge rise in Japan due to Taheita
Mr.ConCon is doing stuff, idk what stuff tho
WON GOML against Zero and got 2nd place as Pound
Very likely a high tier due to Mr.E and Pugwest
Very likely a high tier due to Kamemushi and Scatt
got nerfed hard and can't ladder. Abadango and MK leo droped him(Leo still uses him, but mainly cloud iirc.) Also Leo went to GOML and beat nairo and took zero to game 5
Won Pound
still dead with ,
is a meme with and
Been on a rise lately with IceNinja and more
Still doing relatively the same
Many think he is mid tier now because of little results
Earth won Sumbato 10
er, idrk
a Robin sent Nairo out of the tournament in Pound
another contender for best by many.
Is now considered bottom 10 by many
Trela is back and taken names and won 2GGT:The Pink Fresh Saga
nothing recent unless Johnny Westside hype was after Bayo
Despite being nerfed heavily is still in top 5
got 13th(?) at GOML and has been doing better overall lately
got 3rd at Momocon, has been doing relatvely the same if not slightly better
hype has been falling like with and and and
is still bad
Nairo got his lowest placement at like 40 something at Pound losing to Saj'sand Mr.II's.. However Nairo has been doing well every since then.

 

[R3D3MON]

Megamang

Well from what I saw Ally actually had to beat PP spindash shield cancel a lot of the times from Wrath. So I think it has more to do with the power of pivot options + spin dash because spin dash itself can be beaten with many options, including projectiles. Overall Wrath was playing extremely patiently and calmly, even when he was at a deficit in % or stocks. He never tried to overextend his lead/punish game with un-safe Spring Jump > up-air (remember this is how 6WX lost two crucial games against Ally and Nairo in Paragon 2015 and TBH5, respectively). Wrath only tried to extend when he knew the opponent was going to airdodge, and this is really smart because Ally sometimes gets locked into airdodging habits mid-matches or mid-sets.

Overall very very smart and optimal play from Wrath. If he regularly travels to national tournaments he may become the next Wizzrobe of Smash 4 :D

Vyrnx

Adding on to what Vyrnx said, if you look at his frame data on moves like nair and such, it is totally ridiculous. 6 frames of landing lag 3 less than Cpt. Falcon's up-air) and basically safe on non-PS, especially when it is crossed up on shield. Similarly Dair (a very strong spike) is also very safe on shield and makes his already-fearsome shield pressure games with tilts even more scary and not very fun because one mess up at %s below 100 and it could be immediate death. Furthermore from what I understand Dair spikes at angle where it is untechable unlike other dairs in the game, which leads to even more setups when people drop shield by accident. To top this all off is Ryu's down-b, which is great for plenty of mindgames and mixup opportunities and in general gives fear to many people and also all versions of down-b can combo into kill setups and is especially potent against heavy weights and fastfallers in general.


EDIT: Nobie you seem to underestimate the effects of increasing hitbox sizes on many of Mewtwo's important moves (such as nair and shadowball) and the effects of mobility. For instance, Link has plenty of kill options and 50/50s from his throws and such and his damage racking ability is excellent. However he is considered criticall underwhelming by many because his mobility is not very good. This was the similar case to Mewtwo, except now his mobility stats are some of the best in the game and along with his abusive neutral it puts great fear into players of all levels. Pre-buff Mewtwo didn't matter for many players because all of Mewtwo's "cool" combos and kill confirms were useless when Mewtwo could not even catch up to certain characters and was more likely to be killed early himself. However with the buffs he is more likely to kill his opponents first then actually get killed earlier himself, and this is where problems starts to arise.

 

[Trunks159]

In response to the whole kill confirms things, I just wish characters couldn't kill with Frame 1-4 commitments ESPECIALLY below 100%.

 

[Wintermelon43]

You missed a lot and I know people have covered stuff, but I feel like going over it.

got nerfed and is not longer the biggest threat
Lord Mix beat Vinnie and Void at Momocon. Also some japanese Bowser does well with him.
is still lost with other characters
don't think anything big has happened
lost with Bowser Jr.
M2K beat Zero 3-0 at GOML. Considered Best character by some people
MAny people are demoting her to a counter pick character, although YOH from Japan placed well with her as a solo main, but results are meh. Also Esam picked him up and beat NAKAT with Corrin only 3-0 at Pound. Also Ryuga picked her up
One of them beat Trela and has been popping up at some tournaments recently
is still lost with others
Considered as a potential #1
Larry is still placing well
don't know what is going on with this guy tbh.
DHD is still doing GREAT in Japan with Yousan
still lost
Got 3rd at GOML but Trela destroyed Larry recently.
Not much
Was on the rise because of istudying but is not slowly depleting
San got 9th and GOML with Ike, but RYO is still lacking
#NoBuffsforthePuff
A kirby took Mr.R to last hit on Game 5 at Pound.
got 9th at GOML and took Nairo to game 5
Europe results, don't know much about him
He had been placing pretty decently, but not the best Nothing major
Been on a huge rise in Japan due to Taheita
Mr.ConCon is doing stuff, idk what stuff tho
WON GOML against Zero and got 2nd place as Pound
Very likely a high tier due to Mr.E and Pugwest
Very likely a high tier due to Kamemushi and Scatt
got nerfed hard and can't ladder. Abadango and MK leo droped him(Leo still uses him, but mainly cloud iirc.) Also Leo went to GOML and beat nairo and took zero to game 5
Won Pound
still dead with ,
is a meme with and
Been on a rise lately with IceNinja and more
Still doing relatively the same
Many think he is mid tier now because of little results
Earth won Sumbato 10
er, idrk
a Robin sent Nairo out of the tournament in Pound
another contender for best by many.
Is now considered bottom 10 by many
Trela is back and taken names and won 2GGT:The Pink Fresh Saga
nothing recent unless Johnny Westside hype was after Bayo
Despite being nerfed heavily is still in top 5
got 13th(?) at GOML and has been doing better overall lately
got 3rd at Momocon, has been doing relatvely the same if not slightly better
hype has been falling like with and and and
is still bad
Nairo got his lowest placement at like 40 something at Pound losing to Saj'sand Mr.II's.. However Nairo has been doing well every since then.

Other stuff:

and aren't really falling. is also rising if anything.

also has Daiki

also has results from TLTC and Prince Ramen.

isn't a meme, Shuton got 2nd at a umebura with him. isn't really a meme either but he had been falling recently. I think he will tise soon though, he has potential.

Mikekirby got Void to last hit last game aganist Void too.

now had Raito and Brood too (Also,byou ahould mention one of them beat Ranai too)

is actually being used as a secondary for Larry now and reverse 3-0ed Void with him.

Tearbear beat FOW with

 

[ZSaberLink]

Combo Breaker results since no one posted: http://combobreaker.challonge.com/2016_wiiu_1v1

1st - PG | ESAM
2nd - E2C | Tyroy (1.15)
3rd - GGA | JJRockets
4th - PG | MVD

5th
GGA | Dan
cR dekillsage

7th
Zinoto
Skorpio

9th
Shinjoebi
Ho3K | Dill
Ksev
GG Wv | Regralht

13th
SWAG
Ho3K | Helpr
VexX | Day
UR | Ned

If people wanted evidence of Minnesota being good, Skorpio (Robin main PR'd 4th) is in top 8 at Combo Breaker.

Requiem (from Minnesota) also got 17th with his Link/Samus.

 

[ARISTOS]

Oh yeah, about how it's not fair that Mewtwo has kill confirms:

Where was all this when Mewtwo was a perceived low tier? Many of those combos and kill confirms still existed?

I understand that Mewtwo's improved mobility and safety makes this a bit different, but now that Mewtwo can properly defend itself it suddenly can't have the things that define the character as a glass cannon?

Also, now that I think about it, this makes me realize why Mewtwo never got a combo down throw like so many people hoped.

Mewtwo has kill confirms off of attack, and has kill throws, but does not have kill confirms off of throws. This is super important because otherwise the character might actually be broken.

TBF, mobility is THAT important. It changes absolutely everything involving a character.

 

[meleebrawler]

In response to the whole kill confirms things, I just wish characters couldn't kill with Frame 1-4 commitments ESPECIALLY below 100%.

Too bad this game came out before Street Fighter V and it's "use heavier attacks for bigger combos" mentality.

Like 80% of interaction in every fighting game ever is based off anticipation, not reaction.

Doubly so with online games with any form of lag.

Oh yeah, about how it's not fair that Mewtwo has kill confirms:

Where was all this when Mewtwo was a perceived low tier? Many of those combos and kill confirms still existed?

I understand that Mewtwo's improved mobility and safety makes this a bit different, but now that Mewtwo can properly defend itself it suddenly can't have the things that define the character as a glass cannon?

Also, now that I think about it, this makes me realize why Mewtwo never got a combo down throw like so many people hoped.

Mewtwo has kill confirms off of attack, and has kill throws, but does not have kill confirms off of throws. This is super important because otherwise the character might actually be broken.

And to think some actually complained Confusion, a set knockback grab doesn't true combo into anything...

 

[L9999]

TBF, mobility is THAT important. It changes absolutely everything involving a character.

Just imagine the slowest characters with better mobility.....

 

[Shaya]

Shaya, the inspirational guy.

Kill confirms are perfectly fine.
When they come from grabs it's dangerous.

I have less issue with Ryu's kill confirms and more so how early they kill. I also think that a 1.8x hit lag modifier benefits the Ryu player more than the opponent for reactively getting confirms and a bit of an SDI modifier on some of the tilts [or everything?] would be appropriate (better this than say, making the moves have more end lag either naturally or through some sort of SF-esque mechanic). Would it make Ryu worthless if double dtilting someone may give the opponent enough time to move up and away to avoid sweetspot shoryu? Probably not (heck, that may not be possible anyway, I'm not sure how large the hitbox of Shoryu is, wouldn't be surprised if it's xbox-huge).

When kill confirms come from attacks, there's usually a lot more DI, spacing and timing variance available - from grabs they tend to just be "your life is over". Ryu's confirms kinda dodge this by having no knockback, which is maybe a problem but that's how his kit works.

But hey, if anything, people recognising Ryu exists and is an extremely scary threat with looming "biggest tournaments of the year" on the horizon was a lot of my intention of that original post.

There's no way I'm not going to be studying Trela and other Ryus to the point where the match up and possible counter strategies exist; it's good for the game and for Trela too - he has faith in his main and is wanting to prove it. I have vested interest in not seeing it go so easily for him. My eye's are on him for a reason.

The good thing is, is that it's going to take most people at least 2-3 months before they can even walk as Ryu, the meta shifting towards him is very very unlikely in the short term no matter what happens over the season.

WELCOME TO THE SUMMER OF SMASH
... part 2

Also wild Xyro appeared? That's more hype than 95% of the inhabitants of this thread could possibly comprehend.
Shout outs to the oldgens <3

 

[hypersonicJD]

Yea, Megaman is defensive and has some very powerfully tuned buttons. And he does beat Sonic.


My point was beside all of that though. I just dislike Sonic as a character. I don't understand why he is designed, seemingly only to be frustrating to fight. My main gripes, as I said, are that the spindash hop is invincible and that he can shield during its charge. This has nothing to do with his games, and is just strange design choice, in my humble opinion.


Im not defending Mega, I just don't like seeing Sonic do well. Nothing personal to his players. Megaman has a zone/break his zone dynamic going on in most MUs. Sonic's dynamic is 'you know how winning gives you an advantage? lets boost that by 1000x and give the character that is the best at running away a silly confirm tool that is safe, invincible in totally un-intuitive ways'. Mega is doing something loyal to his game, Sonic could have been many many things, but instead he feels stupid to fight. And even Ally has to totally change the way he fights to beat a single button.


Yea, you should have to change based on MUs. Yea, play to win. I just don't like how his kit is so, so tilted towards spindash. There is nothing in the sonic games that would lead me to believe he should be able to shield during charge, or that his little hop at the beginning is invincible. People still don't know its invincible, because it doesn't make any sense that it is.


He could be different, thats all im saying. Doesn't matter, its the game we have. But ill never cheer for a sonic. Charge -> shield ad nauseum is not compelling gameplay for anyone involved.

And people are stil complaning about Sonic? Even at this thread when he loses to Ike, Cloud and Rosalina? Sonic does not lose to Megaman. Pretty annoying projectiles yes. But then what does Megaman have to escape from Sonic combos? Nothing. We can just get damage

Also: Optimal Sonic is not bait and punish Sonic. It's aggressive/passive Sonic. Where he doesn't get annoying enough to try a time-out and does approach and get the kill. Sonic doesn't always rely on Spin Dash. He needs u-throw for damage, spring up air, and d-throw for edgeguards, tech chases and such. You among so many other people are salty about him.

Do you really want another Project M Sonic? (He was insanely broken in that game. Somersaults for days. Best recovery in the game with homing attack, spring, somersault and spin charge. Sonic's fair is also an amazing tool.

But anyway. As I said. Sonic doesn't deserve this kind of hate. Yeah, he should be more aggresive or have his whole moveset based on Sonic Battle and Sonic the fighters. But Spin dash will last forever. Why? Because it's just an iconic attack from Sonic's games It's such a nice move to have for him. It would be nice to have it changed and not being shield cancellable. But that's how Sakurai wanted it to be. So you have to deal with it. I haven't heard someone complaing about Megaman and he is also stupid as ****.

Pellets for days. Metal Blade is one of the best projectiles in the game (besides Diddy's Banana) and also has leaf shield. One of the best smash specials ever. Huge protection againts attacks, priority, be able to throw the move itself, and also use it to trap people on shield, grab them and do a jab lock.

We are here to investigate what can the characters do, what do their mains do. What they can achieve and help people to get to those goals with some good knowledge, advice and more. Not trying to poop on other people's mains, and complain about a single attack that it's beatable by most jabs or projectiles. Is blockable and leaves Sonic wide open for a counter attack.

Can we move on please?

 

[meticulousboy]

I forgot who said this, but someone said something about how devastating Ryu's aerials are? I don't quite remember the adjective. Anyways, I thought Peach had the best aerials in the game.

 

[TDK]

Since when was Ness a meme? I'm so confused.

 

[meleebrawler]

I forgot who said this, but someone said something about how devastating Ryu's aerials are? I don't quite remember the adjective. Anyways, I thought Peach had the best aerials in the game.

More along the lines of them having very low landing lag. They're very good, but have fairly short duration and Ryu's terrible air deceleration keeps them in check.

 

[Y2Kay]

Since when was Ness a meme? I'm so confused.

Not gonna lie a lot these summaries kinda suck. You're better off doing your own research.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

R3D3MON here's some advice because it's very clear you're still bitter about luigi.

Pick up another character. Just long for you to understand them well. Then you can then go back to luigi without such emotional posts.

 

[meticulousboy]

Not gonna lie a lot these summaries kinda suck. You're better off doing your own research.

Best way to get results is to do things yourself. Agreed.

 

[teluoborg]

You should try playing both characters as well. Switching from Falcon to ZSS made burst feel absolutely helpless despite both being high mobility characters. It's the one thing Falcon does leaps better, and you really shouldn't expect anyone experienced with both characters to say otherwise.

Falcon has as many viable setups (falling bair, nair) and mixups (jab 2) into grab as ZSS does, yet Falcon's grab has almost 50% faster startup and less than half the endlag when thrown out raw. Don't underestimate the ways in which 52-62 frames of endlag can be punished compared to 23-28. Their dash grabs also cover roughly the same distance, and if you mention ZSS having additional disjointed range, you also have to bring up the fact that the startup extends to 24 frames as you move towards the tip of the tether. It becomes borderline reactable and a lot easier to miss just because the opponent might have done something that got them out of the way during those extra 8 frames.

MK has nothing to do with the fact that Falcon's dash grab and dash attack are nothing less than amazing. And to be fair, Falcon's dash grab is safer and more rewarding than MK's.

What comes to grab reward between Falcon and ZSS, no. Falcon's reward is just as insane as ZSS'. He doesn't get occasional rage kills off of his, but he gets considerably more damage all the way from 0% until the percents where uair stops connecting. ZSS also gets bad platform DI kills, but if you're going to account for those, I'll go ahead and account for Falcon's dash grab into knee kills at 50% that are a similar result of bad DI.

In the grand scheme of things AFTER PEOPLE HAVE STOPPED DOING THIS, I think they'll be about even in terms of their reward off of grabs. ZSS gets occasional rage jank kills, Falcon gets more consistent damage. Yet, Falcon doesn't get hard punished for whiffing his.

Damn I'm so late on this one so I'll be quick :
1-Falcon's real follow ups are from dash grab and his only true setup is Bair at low percents, ZSS can follow up her Dthrow from any grab
2-There is no reason to ever throw out a grab in the neutral as ZSS when you can reliably set it up with your Zair, Nair, neutral B or Dsmash, 4 options that are all safe in different ways. The endlag on ZSS' grab is as relevant as the endlag on Diddy's Usmash.

 

[L9999]

Since when was Ness a meme? I'm so confused.

Exhibit A say Ness loses every freaking MU there is because his recovery is bad. Because mixing up recovery doesn't exist? Then exhibit B reminds the audience that FOW gets top 4/8 at basically everything he goes. Then exhibit C says people aren't used to Ness' gimmicks because FOW doesn't travel. Then exhibit D says Ness has no results of that caliber when FOW is not around, and that is most of the time. Exhibit E says FOW is the good one and Ness is a mediocre character. Exhibit F says if Ness is so mediocre how does he acheives the results he has. Then a tournament happens, and FOW goes, and does his usual. Then the audience goes "we were wrong about Ness" Then a couple weeks, he doesn't show up in the top 16s, and the audience goes "Ness sucks, he never show up" Then exhibit G says Ness sucks because Ness' recovery is bad and then the MUs, it just goes on and on...

 

[Shady Shaymin]

R3D3MON

Diddy doesn't have kill confirms off of any of his throws lol
Are we even playing the same version rn
Apparently a sheik/bayo nerf was all it took to make Diddy broken again lol

 

[R3D3MON]

Shady Shaymin

Did you watch any matches of Zero's Diddy in GOML? Also not exactly broken but overtuned. Since everybody else got nerfed, it makes sense to keep the power level at a similar level for Diddy as well for the sake of balance.

 

[Shaya]

2-There is no reason to ever throw out a grab in the neutral as ZSS.

No reason? EVER?

fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

The endlag on ZSS' grab is as relevant as the endlag on Diddy's Usmash.

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
OUT.

Do you play against this character frequently and work on the match up or do you live in the world where every ZSS is magically some sort of super-being even above that of Nairo's?
Where we can get away with 30 frame start ups all the time and hence never have to risk grab?
Nairo grabs in neutral more than probably any of us as well... are these all "frame traps" to you because they worked for him?
Much sadness.

The grab reward was cut down a lot in 1.1.5, getting a grab is giving a lot less than it used to. The length of time nair to grab works is noticeably less than before too.
Zair (hint:it's our best move, if people haven't noticed where the zss meta is heading lately) and nair to grab are great, and probably last slightly longer than soft bair to grab on Falcon. Your character is heavy and has half the literal risk with not that much less reward (assuming DI).

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Shady Shaymin

Did you watch any matches of Zero's Diddy in GOML? Also not exactly broken but overtuned. Since everybody else got nerfed, it makes sense to keep the power level at a similar level for Diddy as well for the sake of balance.

Standard damaging combos and throw follow-ups don't all of a sudden become reliable kill confirms because they worked on a floating platform against a light character. To say that diddy has "kill confirms off of two throws" is an absolute gas.

Diddy is already on the same relative same power tier as the other characters around him. Some people don't even think he's the best character. He goes even or loses plenty of matchups against high and mid tier characters. Having a frame 4 kill confirm only means so much if it's a grounded tilt that doesn't actually lead to death until well above 100, leaving ample room for error and adaptation on the opponent's part.

 

[apparently fuz]

Damn I'm so late on this one so I'll be quick :
1-Falcon's real follow ups are from dash grab and his only true setup is Bair at low percents, ZSS can follow up her Dthrow from any grab
2-There is no reason to ever throw out a grab in the neutral as ZSS when you can reliably set it up with your Zair, Nair, neutral B or Dsmash, 4 options that are all safe in different ways. The endlag on ZSS' grab is as relevant as the endlag on Diddy's Usmash.

Well yeah Nairo dash grabs in neutral because he obviously feels like it, not because of any other variables such as conditioning, mixups or option coverage. Gotta continue styling on his opponent somehow!

 

[R3D3MON]

Shady Shaymin

Mario isn't a light character, MK and fox are both fastfallers, and like I said they work when staled. I thought this was common knowledge??? Do you want me to give you video examples?

There is no room for adaptation when an annoying monkey is in your face all the time.

 

[teluoborg]

No reason? EVER?

fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff


FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
OUT.

Do you play against this character frequently and work on the match up or do you live in the world where every ZSS is magically some sort of super-being even above that of Nairo's?
Where we can get away with 30 frame start ups all the time and hence never have to risk grab?
Nairo grabs in neutral more than probably any of us as well... are these all "frame traps" to you because they worked for him?
Much sadness.

Is Australia in space ? Because you sure like to look at things in a vacuum.
I invite you to go read the context, especially the part where Trifroze says that ZSS' grab is "high risk" and that you have to "rely on conditioning" to land a grab with ZSS.

A move is not high risk when you can hitconfirm it from another move that is -4 on shield.

PS : apparently fuz Thanks for the sarcasm but the joke's on you for inadvertently agreeing with me.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Shady Shaymin

Mario isn't a light character, MK and fox are both fastfallers, and like I said they work when staled. I thought this was common knowledge??? Do you want me to give you video examples?

There is no room for adaptation when an annoying monkey is in your face all the time.

MK and Fox are both very light characters, one being just as light as pikachu.

No room for adaptation? I almost feel like I'm being baited. I've never heard anyone make such a bold claim against a character as to claim that the character leaves absolutely no room for adaptation. This is straight up nonsense and johns talk.

 

[TurboLink]

I've never understood how some people can call Zero Suit Samus a high risk character.

 

[irokex13]

Shaya, the inspirational guy.

Kill confirms are perfectly fine.
When they come from grabs it's dangerous.

I have less issue with Ryu's kill confirms and more so how early they kill. I also think that a 1.8x hit lag modifier benefits the Ryu player more than the opponent for reactively getting confirms and a bit of an SDI modifier on some of the tilts [or everything?] would be appropriate (better this than say, making the moves have more end lag either naturally or through some sort of SF-esque mechanic). Would it make Ryu worthless if double dtilting someone may give the opponent enough time to move up and away to avoid sweetspot shoryu? Probably not (heck, that may not be possible anyway, I'm not sure how large the hitbox of Shoryu is, wouldn't be surprised if it's xbox-huge).

When kill confirms come from attacks, there's usually a lot more DI, spacing and timing variance available - from grabs they tend to just be "your life is over". Ryu's confirms kinda dodge this by having no knockback, which is maybe a problem but that's how his kit works.

Thank god for Shaya, I swear I was about to lose it. I'm certain that a vast majority of the users in this thread lack a lot of knowledge about Ryu. Once anyone fights a high level Ryu, then they will begin to understand the problems with him.

Anyone who thinks he has a bad neutral is simply insane. Look at his frame data. Look at his hitboxes. He has a button for anything you can do to him. Do he have one overpowered option that can stuff out everything? No. But he does have tools for every situation, and those tools are often really good.

A lot of people here love to point out his low air mobility, then conveniently forget that he has an ARMORED air dash to shift him momentum. You can't just dance around him in the air, as he has the mobility to catch you and his aerials have absurd hitboxes.

Shoryuken is quite possibly the move overtuned move in the game (even if you disagree with it being the best, you know it's up there). Frames 1-6 invincibility, 18% damage, 18 frames of landing lag, a generous hitbox, and has frame 2/3 confirms into it. This move straight up kills you at 70-80% WITHOUT rage. When Ryu has rage (which he will because he is heavy and has a really good recovery), you can die at absurd percents. I saw a Falcon die at 50% from a max rage Shoryu on T&C. That is simply not ok.

Also, no one can look at the up tilt lock and think that's it's ok. Of all the things about Ryu, that is the most absurd. A frame 3 moves with no cooldown and more range than you think (it also hits behind him) that just destroy's fast fallers. I don't really care if anything else gets changed about Ryu, this crap needs to go.

This is coming from a guy who mains Cloud and Sheik. I'm very aware of how powerful my characters are and the jank they have (Limit Cross Slash is unforgivable). I just don't understand why Ryu is commonly excused from the grief that other top tiers receive. Sure, you can argue his MU spread isn't completely dominant, and trust me, I know there is counterplay to him. But playing against a character who gets the reward of a super heavy without any of the disadvantages is unreasonable.

 

[R3D3MON]

MK and Fox are both very light characters, one being just as light as pikachu.

Yes but they are fastfallers. Fox in fact has both the highest gravity and highest fall speed. Do you know how combos work?

 

[Trifroze]

Is Australia in space ? Because you sure like to look at things in a vacuum.
I invite you to go read the context, especially the part where Trifroze says that ZSS' grab is "high risk" and that you have to "rely on conditioning" to land a grab with ZSS.

A move is not high risk when you can hitconfirm it from another move that is -4 on shield.

PS : apparently fuz Thanks for the sarcasm but the joke's on you for inadvertently agreeing with me.

Grabs are an anti-shield option in neutral, so setups that lead into a grab that can be shielded don't help you play anti-shield. In addition, here are all of ZSS' great setups into grab:

SHFF bair at 10-30%: Telegraphed because has to be used upon falling, overall action takes ~30 frames
SHFF nair at 10-30%: See above, overall action takes ~30 frames
SH falling weak zair: See above, overall action takes ~40 frames, can be spotdodged by fastfallers and jumped by floaties (or if hit in the air) so it's a mixup
Max range paralyzer or a fully charged one: ~35-45 frames
Dsmash: 20 frames, not safe (and other follow ups are better anyway)

All of this is easily reactable and all of this is beaten by shields. As ZSS, how do you respond to someone who reactively shields your every landing and doesn't get hit by paralyzers from a third of the stage across? You make them think it's safe to shield and then you throw out a raw grab one way or another, or you just catch onto a different defensive option and try to read it.

Trifroze is ZSS's dthrow -> downb ever a true 50/50, or is it just a fear read that tries to call out a panic airdodge? Also, are there any significant windows where she can't convert heavily off her grab? To my knowledge, she doesn't get too much guaranteed at very low percents (just an aerial and a juggle or stagger situation), and there is a decent percent range where uair is her only follow-up, but it won't kill.

Down b out of dthrow is just a fear read. And yeah, at low percents your best bet is usually fair, and at high percents all you'll get is an uair which turns into a 50/50 towards kill percents. Bair is a sort of double 50/50 as well, you have to read the DI first and then the airdodge.

 

[Shaya]

Is Australia in space ? Because you sure like to look at things in a vacuum.
I invite you to go read the context, especially the part where Trifroze says that ZSS' grab is "high risk" and that you have to "rely on conditioning" to land a grab with ZSS.

A move is not high risk when you can hitconfirm it from another move that is -4 on shield.

PS : apparently fuz Thanks for the sarcasm but the joke's on you for inadvertently agreeing with me.

Isn't it you who's looking at things in a vacuum?
Have a confirm into grab, just like you have confirms into all of your aerials bar fair/dair?

Where I'm arguing from beyond that, is how there is no variance of those proceeding options that lead into grab. They're safe, but so is Link throwing a bomb at you from half a stage away. Positional and set up requirements exist, they all require jumping and landing or charge timing.

Oh and your character is -2 on landing with up air and can be up to -1 on AC bair.
Let's just throw out some numbers~

The fact is that a 16 frame grab is not something that stays guaranteed for long on that -4 move you infer, and that the counter play to all those moves you listed that lead into said grab are quite significant.
But I'm the one looking at things in a vacuum... kk.
I love buzzwords.

Ninja'd by the tribroze.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Thank god for Shaya, I swear I was about to lose it. I'm certain that a vast majority of the users in this thread lack a lot of knowledge about Ryu. Once anyone fights a high level Ryu, then they will begin to understand the problems with him.

Anyone who thinks he has a bad neutral is simply insane. Look at his frame data. Look at his hitboxes. He has a button for anything you can do to him. Do he have one overpowered option that can stuff out everything? No. But he does have tools for every situation, and those tools are often really good.

A lot of people here love to point out his low air mobility, then conveniently forget that he has an ARMORED air dash to shift him momentum. You can't just dance around him in the air, as he has the mobility to catch you and his aerials have absurd hitboxes.

Shoryuken is quite possibly the move overtuned move in the game (even if you disagree with it being the best, you know it's up there). Frames 1-6 invincibility, 18% damage, 18 frames of landing lag, a generous hitbox, and has frame 2/3 confirms into it. This move straight up kills you at 70-80% WITHOUT rage. When Ryu has rage (which he will because he is heavy and has a really good recovery), you can die at absurd percents. I saw a Falcon die at 50% from a max rage Shoryu on T&C. That is simply not ok.

Also, no one can look at the up tilt lock and think that's it's ok. Of all the things about Ryu, that is the most absurd. A frame 3 moves with no cooldown and more range than you think (it also hits behind him) that just destroy's fast fallers. I don't really care if anything else gets changed about Ryu, this crap needs to go.

This is coming from a guy who mains Cloud and Sheik. I'm very aware of how powerful my characters are and the jank they have (Limit Cross Slash is unforgivable). I just don't understand why Ryu is commonly excused from the grief that other top tiers receive. Sure, you can argue his MU spread isn't completely dominant, and trust me, I know there is counterplay to him. But playing against a character who gets the reward of a super heavy without any of the disadvantages is unreasonable.

Ok

If we have to say someone's neutral has a answer to everyone problem they may face ( which every character should have), then we're really stretching to try to make our point look good.