Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TDK]

So, I've been out of the game for a while. Could someone give me a tl;dr of what I've missed?

 

[Gawain]

There is nothing wrong with having joke characters. Friendly disrespect is a pivotal aspect of competition, and disrespect manifests itself in smash through garbage tier characters.
The problem isn't a character like , a caricature of a bad fighter and whose existence in the game is comically pointless when is also playable. The problem is characters like ,,, who are intended to be good characters, but have fundamental design flaws that actually prevent them from working.

So when we talk about trash tiers and who should be buffed and how, we should consider how the characters were intended to play and how those concepts can be realized in a way that makes them viable and doesn't compromise any facets of their designs.

Good examples of ideal buffs imo are ,,, andfor those reasons.

lol, Roy is fundamentally flawed by design? You ever play Project M? Once again I'm reminded of why I don't discuss this character here.

 

[BunbUn129]

Puff doesn't need to challenge people head-on in a FFA. She has what's probably the best overall air mobility in the game and a superb disadvantage state. Just wait for somebody to do something stupid and Rest 'em. Rest is still punishable but significantly less so in a FFA because somebody walking up and charging an Fsmash is likely going to get punished with another charged Fsmash.

Duck Hunt's undertuned but not significantly so. Again he can take advantage of the chaos and pull things that wouldn't otherwise be possible like fishing for charged smashes (remember the range increases with charge). His recovery isn't quite as exploitable when it can be used and often gets ignored, and going for a gimp in a FFA is a good way to get gimped yourself.

I don't see why Palutena and MK suck in FFAs. Palutena's got high dash speed and Warp for getting around and avoiding things and Uair and Usmash are great at catching people whizzing by. Yeah, she's light, but she's still heavier then Marth so it's not like she's Mewtwo. MK is like Puff where he can run away the majority of a match while focusing on edgeguards and eventually fishing for Fsmashes.

Ike, Samus and Mewtwo I don't think were anything exceptional in FFAs either. Ike was garbage in every gamemode initially, and right now he still has typical heavy problems that lead to him being juggled the majority of the match. He lacks anything ridiculously powerful not stuck behind five years of startup, endlag, and sourspots. Samus generally works better in FFAs then 1v1s but I don't see anything ridiculous. Mewtwo is still probably the most frail character in the game with the combination of weight and hitbox size and some of his more impressive attributes such as his Uthrow don't work as well because of how FFAs play out.

I mean, prepatch Sheik was fair and balanced in FFAs. Most everybody makes way more sense in FFAs. Most characters still have extreme problems in 1v1s caused by what's clearly a lack of caring how they work in 1v1s... For example Rosalina is balanced for an environment where Luma is going to be dying constantly. They could of made it so Luma couldn't just fall off and make Rosaluma weaker to accommodate, but they didn't because either nobody thought of it (which I doubt), nobody thought it was a significant problem, or somebody wanted her to play just so. I'm going with the third option myself.

Release MK wasn't good in FFA's because of the lag and relatively low power on his aerial attacks, as well as other moves like jab and f tilt being unwieldy and unrewarding. Even in 1.1.4, MK was not a major problem in FFA's, and I can say this from my own experience. The single greatest thing about MK, his punishes, were a lot weaker in an FFA environment because most attempts to pull off an up air combo (or any combo) would be interrupted by someone charging in with a dash attack or a Little Mac coming in with a KO punch. I know casuals aren't the only ones who play FFA's, but they do account for most people who play FFA's, and I know 2 friends who play MK in FFA's and never even knew about his up air combo until I told them about it. If we assume that the players playing FFA's are casuals, then MK does not stand out as an "OMG OP" character due to a few reasons: 1) he dies early, 2) his smash attacks are slow/underwhelming, at least relative to what other characters have, 3) his short range is problematic against the likes of Cloud, Ike, and Link, among others, who are very good in FFA's, and 4) he lacks a projectile.

MK never really sucked in FFA's (mainly due to how evasive he can be), but in that format he never reached "nerf this ****!" levels of problematic. The fact that they nerfed his up air combo without touching things like f smash or any of his specials, which were generally stronger tools for him in FFA's, is good proof that the 1 v 1 meta does have a significant role in balance changes.

But then it might just be because Sakurai saw MK doing up air combos and was frightened by what his own creation had become.....

You could probably make similar points for other nerfed/buffed characters, but I think I should leave that to their respective mains.

 

[Zelder]

lol, Roy is fundamentally flawed by design? You ever play Project M? Once again I'm reminded of why I don't discuss this character here.

Walk me through this sentence, because it doesn't make sense. How does Roy's Project M design, which has different moves, attributes, and an entirely different engine, explain away some of Roy's problems in Smash 4? He's not implying that Roy is, by nature, a flawed character (though he is probably the weakest Lord in the Fire Emblem series), because that would be silly.

 

[BunbUn129]

I think he's referring to how people cite Roy's reverse tipper as a fundamental design flaw that will never allow him to be successful. Project M kept that reverse tipper and compensated him mainly with improved reach (while Smash 4 actually shortened his range).

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Roy doesn't really need more reach. There is no reason his reverse tipper can't work at all, the problem is that it isn't rewarding. Since it's objectively worse then a long ranged tipper, you'd think Roy would be supplemented with a lot more power. The problem is he doesn't really have any kill setups that I'm aware of, ****ty recovery, and every advantage he has you could more out of just by playing someone else. For how short range Roy's attacks are, the reward is actually piss poor.

For those who are not aware and have not done the direct comparisons, Marth's tipper is a lot stronger then Roy's sweet spots. The only thing Roy has going for him is being faster and heavier, which clearly isn't enough.

 

[Zelder]

In my quiet moments, I wonder what Smash would be like if it was all original characters did not hail from disparate series. I think about this because fundamentally I'm a very boring person, but also because it's an interesting thought experiment. If there were no preestablished history for these characters, would the amount of character loyalists significantly dwindle? Would it cut down on the number of people insisting to me that <insert mediocre character of your choice here> is actually totally viable, and we just don't see it yet? Would we see higher rates of top tier character usage? Would people be more ready to agree on who is and isn't viable? I don't know, possibly.

On the other hand, I feel like if there was no/diminished character loyalty, we'd lose more of those electrifing tournament moments when someone takes a low tier character to a packed top 8. Personally, those are some of my favorite Smash tournament moments. Additionally, the dedication that people show to some of the lower tier heroes, either out of love/nostalgia/self hatred, is fascinating. In a weird way, it's one of the things I kind of associate with Smash*.

Ultimately, I think that it would be a wash, either way. We'd lose some of the thing that, to me, make Smash Smash, but perhaps we'd gain others. This got a little rambly and navel-gazey at the end (and the beginning and middle), so I'll just sum it up by saying that Smash is a land of contrasts. Thank you.


*I am very aware that low tier heroes/people sticking with characters that are "bad" is nothing unique to Smash. However, purely going off of gut instinct, I feel like the phenomenon is more common to Smash's tournament life than other competive fighting games.

 

[Luco]

Joke characters are tougher in Smash. Dan Hibiki is fine, because he's always been a joke, and was created explicitly for that purpose (his moveset is a sucky version of Ryu, pink gi, etc.). Bringing in a character with a fanbase and a backstory and a design, and saying, "lol you're the joke character" is a bit tougher for Smash, and a bit harder on the fans of said character.




which is why this game needs waluigi

Interestingly enough, my brother and I were discussing this, and he was saying he thought Smash would be better balanced if characters were made to counter one another like how heroes in DoTA counter one another. I responded by saying I disliked the notion that you lose at the character select screen and that this comes into play more than in DoTA because in DoTA people willingly switch characters all the time and thus the whole 'characters that aren't in play are still relevant because of the threat of them being picked' doesn't get to apply here because smash is a game that fundamentally tugs on the heartstrings of loyalists, and most people even if they're not attached to their character series-wise are very attached to their main or select sub-set of co-mains / secondaries.

 

[Zelder]

A fighting game where characters straight up win at the select screen sounds absolutely awful. If you want a picture of the future, imagine a man losing the Dictator v Guile matchup, every time.

DOTA works because it's a team game, so you can reasonably expect to have a backup for the counter your opponent is packing. In a one on one fighting game, you get no backup. It could maaaaaaybbbeee work as a Marvel style game, but even that sounds like not fun in the slightest.

 

[TurboLink]

Roy doesn't really need more reach. There is no reason his reverse tipper can't work at all, the problem is that it isn't rewarding. Since it's objectively worse then a long ranged tipper, you'd think Roy would be supplemented with a lot more power. The problem is he doesn't really have any kill setups that I'm aware of, ****ty recovery, and every advantage he has you could more out of just by playing someone else. For how short range Roy's attacks are, the reward is actually piss poor.

For those who are not aware and have not done the direct comparisons, Marth's tipper is a lot stronger then Roy's sweet spots. The only thing Roy has going for him is being faster and heavier, which clearly isn't enough.

Roy's damage output is better than Marth's.

In my quiet moments, I wonder what Smash would be like if it was all original characters who did not hail from disparate series. I think about this because fundamentally I'm a very boring person, but also because it's an interesting thought experiment. If there were no preestablished history for these characters, would the amount of character loyalists significantly dwindle? Would it cut down on the number of people insisting to me that <insert mediocre character of your choice here> is actually totally viable, and we just don't see it yet? Would we see higher rates of top tier character usage? Would people be more ready to agree on who is and isn't viable? I don't know, possibly.

On the other hand, I feel like if there was no/diminished character loyalty, we'd lose more of those electrifing tournament moments when someone takes a low tier character to a packed top 8. Personally, those are some of my favorite Smash tournament moments. Additionally, the dedication that people show to some of the lower tier heroes, either out of love/nostalgia/self hatred, is fascinating. In a weird way, it's one of the things I kind of associate with Smash*.

Ultimately, I think that it would be a wash, either way. We'd lose some of the thing that, to me, make Smash Smash, but perhaps we'd gain others. This got a little rambly and navel-gazey at the end (and the beginning and middle), so I'll just sum it up by saying that Smash is a land of contrasts. Thank you.


*I am very aware that low tier heroes/people sticking with characters that are "bad" is nothing unique to Smash. However, purely going off of gut instinct, I feel like the phenomenon is more common to Smash's tournament life than other competive fighting games.

Smash Bros. 4 probably wouldn't even be a thing if it wasn't for characters like Mario, Kirby, Link, Pikachu, Samus, and etc. drawing in loads of people from different fanbases.

 

[Trela]

I have serious issues contemplating what's actually stopping Trela from winning CEO or EVO right now.

Ever since the dawn of Smash 4, I've struggled to find the answer in what I was actually playing for, or what I was really fighting for. It was a debate I used to have with Xyro during the Brawl days on finding out who I was and who I wanted to be in Smash; Do I want fame? Or do I want fortune?

How about neither?

Fame? No, for it does not last.

Fortune? I could care less.

This quote from Shaya. This post right here. That is my answer.

"What if?"

Imagine this kid from Chile. The type of kid who you would meet at your local tournaments who's always giving it his all every time he plays. You've never heard of this kid, and you couldn't give a damn. But you're watching him play, and you see him improving. Eventually he starts winning your tournaments. He looks at you and says, "I want to go out of the country and become the best player in the world by winning the biggest tournaments against the best players." You just laugh at him. But in the back of your mind, after seeing what he was capable of, you can't help but ask yourself, "What if it really happened?"

That kid has now created a legacy in Smash that can never be forgotten.

So imagine me, this kid from Texas. He's been winning at his locals since Smash 4 came out. He uses Robin, Shulk, Charizard, Mewtwo, Doc, and Mii Swordfighter. But he could never win any major tournaments in his home state, let alone get even remotely close to doing something notable at a national when he started traveling. Then he saw an opportunity when a new character was revealed. A fighting game character was converted into a non-fighting game. The amount of options this character possessed was like nothing he's ever seen before in Smash. No one wanted to play him at the time, but he knew later on down the line that he would be the one everyone feared to go up against. So he took it upon himself. He knew there would be heavy losses along the way when he was playing a character like this one, but they hit him harder than he thought they would. He went on a hiatus.

Since his return, he has yet to lose a tournament.

What if he stopped looking at the puzzle itself.......and started looking at each individual piece?

What if losing now did not change his future.......but only pushed it back farther?

What if those losses were only building him up.......to become stronger?

What if he were to win a tournament like.......CEO.......EVO.......SmashCon.......?

What if Ryu really was.......the best character in the game?

What if Ryu never got nerfed?

What if that kid who would win all those friendlies against the top players.......really was the best in the world?

What if he actually started APPLYING HIMSELF IN TOURNAMENTS?

What if.......Trela?

When I walk into a tournament now, I ask myself, "How will I lose today? Who will stop me?" Everyone's a threat and always will be, just as I wish to be onto them. Because I am capable of doing anything, just as they are. And when someone tells me that I can win this tournament or beat that player.......then it means I have already won.

I set out to be something in Smash. But now that I am something, it doesn't mean the journey has to end here. There's still more work to be done. Just know that this time, when I lose.......I'll come right back.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

In my quiet moments, I wonder what Smash would be like if it was all original characters did not hail from disparate series. I think about this because fundamentally I'm a very boring person, but also because it's an interesting thought experiment. If there were no preestablished history for these characters, would the amount of character loyalists significantly dwindle? Would it cut down on the number of people insisting to me that <insert mediocre character of your choice here> is actually totally viable, and we just don't see it yet? Would we see higher rates of top tier character usage? Would people be more ready to agree on who is and isn't viable? I don't know, possibly.

On the other hand, I feel like if there was no/diminished character loyalty, we'd lose more of those electrifing tournament moments when someone takes a low tier character to a packed top 8. Personally, those are some of my favorite Smash tournament moments. Additionally, the dedication that people show to some of the lower tier heroes, either out of love/nostalgia/self hatred, is fascinating. In a weird way, it's one of the things I kind of associate with Smash*.

Ultimately, I think that it would be a wash, either way. We'd lose some of the thing that, to me, make Smash Smash, but perhaps we'd gain others. This got a little rambly and navel-gazey at the end (and the beginning and middle), so I'll just sum it up by saying that Smash is a land of contrasts. Thank you.


*I am very aware that low tier heroes/people sticking with characters that are "bad" is nothing unique to Smash. However, purely going off of gut instinct, I feel like the phenomenon is more common to Smash's tournament life than other competive fighting games.

I wish I wasn't a character loyalist because I ****ing hate playing Roy so much but I can't stop it. I'll never be able to stop it.Funny thing is I only just recently started Roy's actual game and I stopped playing after a few hours because it was boring. I just liked him so much in melee..

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Diddy Kong was my #1 most requested character in the 64 and Melee days, now that he's actually in the game and is a top tier character in both Brawl and Smash 4, I find him boring and I never enjoyed playing him in either game. Despite forcing myself to try a lot because he's great and I love Diddy as a character.

At least I both love Pikmin as a series, and Olimar as a smash character at the same time. He's both fun and decent (Great in brawl). So I'm quite happy to be an Olimar main for life.

 

[LancerStaff]

The fact that they nerfed his up air combo without touching things like f smash or any of his specials, which were generally stronger tools for him in FFA's, is good proof that the 1 v 1 meta does have a significant role in balance changes.

Good post, but this I don't agree with. They didn't nerf his FFA aspects because they didn't need to be nerfed. I still think they haven't touched FFA balance much because they mostly nailed it to begin with. Most characters with flawed, overly good or bad, 1v1 designs were carried over with minimal changes made to counteract this. Those that were changed for the worse in 1v1s were arguably changed too much to the point where they were heavily flawed instead like DDD or Falco, plus a bunch of other characters that were slowly buffed back up. Brawl Marth and Falco were probably big problems in FFAs to begin with...

Roy's damage output is better than Marth's.

Not really... Roy's aerials in particular are more comparable to Pit's then Marth's. Only his Fair is really more rewarding then Pit's when you consider how bad Dair is.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I think a nice way to buff Roy would be be giving him some actual autocancels
fair and nair should both autocancel but they don't which kind of sucks

 

[Phan7om]

Ever since the dawn of Smash 4, I've struggled to find the answer in what I was actually playing for, or what I was really fighting for. It was a debate I used to have with Xyro during the Brawl days on finding out who I was and who I wanted to be in Smash; Do I want fame? Or do I want fortune?

How about neither?

Fame? No, for it does not last.

Fortune? I could care less.

This quote from Shaya. This post right here. That is my answer.

"What if?"

Imagine this kid from Chile. The type of kid who you would meet at your local tournaments who's always giving it his all every time he plays. You've never heard of this kid, and you couldn't give a damn. But you're watching him play, and you see him improving. Eventually he starts winning your tournaments. He looks at you and says, "I want to go out of the country and become the best player in the world by winning the biggest tournaments against the best players." You just laugh at him. But in the back of your mind, after seeing what he was capable of, you can't help but ask yourself, "What if it really happened?"

That kid has now created a legacy in Smash that can never be forgotten.

So imagine me, this kid from Texas. He's been winning at his locals since Smash 4 came out. He uses Robin, Shulk, Charizard, Mewtwo, Doc, and Mii Swordfighter. But he could never win any major tournaments in his home state, let alone get even remotely close to doing something notable at a national when he started traveling. Then he saw an opportunity when a new character was revealed. A fighting game character was converted into a non-fighting game. The amount of options this character possessed was like nothing he's ever seen before in Smash. No one wanted to play him at the time, but he knew later on down the line that he would be the one everyone feared to go up against. So he took it upon himself. He knew there would be heavy losses along the way when he was playing a character like this one, but they hit him harder than he thought they would. He went on a hiatus.

Since his return, he has yet to lose a tournament.

What if he stopped looking at the puzzle itself.......and started looking at each individual piece?

What if losing now did not change his future.......but only pushed it back farther?

What if those losses were only building him up.......to become stronger?

What if he were to win a tournament like.......CEO.......EVO.......SmashCon.......?

What if Ryu really was.......the best character in the game?

What if Ryu never got nerfed?

What if that kid who would win all those friendlies against the top players.......really was the best in the world?

What if he actually started APPLYING HIMSELF IN TOURNAMENTS?

What if.......Trela?

When I walk into a tournament now, I ask myself, "How will I lose today? Who will stop me?" Everyone's a threat and always will be, just as I wish to be onto them. Because I am capable of doing anything, just as they are. And when someone tells me that I can win this tournament or beat that player.......then it means I have already won.

I set out to be something in Smash. But now that I am something, it doesn't mean the journey has to end here. There's still more work to be done. Just know that this time, when I lose.......I'll come right back.

What anime did you come from?

 

[meticulousboy]

So, I've been out of the game for a while. Could someone give me a tl;dr of what I've missed?

Something about no one plays Jigglypuff because she is a joke character.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Even customs can't save jigglypuff.

 

[meticulousboy]

Even customs can't save jigglypuff.

Maybe Leaping Rest, but the hell with Spinphony.

 

[jespoke]

He's not implying that Roy is, by nature, a flawed character (though he is probably the weakest Lord in the Fire Emblem series), because that would be silly.

The only game where Roy is flawed by design is his own damn game, because of that freakin chapter 22 promotion restriction >:[

 

[Ninety]

Ever since the dawn of Smash 4, I've struggled to find the answer in what I was actually playing for, or what I was really fighting for. It was a debate I used to have with Xyro during the Brawl days on finding out who I was and who I wanted to be in Smash; Do I want fame? Or do I want fortune?

How about neither?

Fame? No, for it does not last.

Fortune? I could care less.

This quote from Shaya. This post right here. That is my answer.

"What if?"

Imagine this kid from Chile. The type of kid who you would meet at your local tournaments who's always giving it his all every time he plays. You've never heard of this kid, and you couldn't give a damn. But you're watching him play, and you see him improving. Eventually he starts winning your tournaments. He looks at you and says, "I want to go out of the country and become the best player in the world by winning the biggest tournaments against the best players." You just laugh at him. But in the back of your mind, after seeing what he was capable of, you can't help but ask yourself, "What if it really happened?"

That kid has now created a legacy in Smash that can never be forgotten.

So imagine me, this kid from Texas. He's been winning at his locals since Smash 4 came out. He uses Robin, Shulk, Charizard, Mewtwo, Doc, and Mii Swordfighter. But he could never win any major tournaments in his home state, let alone get even remotely close to doing something notable at a national when he started traveling. Then he saw an opportunity when a new character was revealed. A fighting game character was converted into a non-fighting game. The amount of options this character possessed was like nothing he's ever seen before in Smash. No one wanted to play him at the time, but he knew later on down the line that he would be the one everyone feared to go up against. So he took it upon himself. He knew there would be heavy losses along the way when he was playing a character like this one, but they hit him harder than he thought they would. He went on a hiatus.

Since his return, he has yet to lose a tournament.

What if he stopped looking at the puzzle itself.......and started looking at each individual piece?

What if losing now did not change his future.......but only pushed it back farther?

What if those losses were only building him up.......to become stronger?

What if he were to win a tournament like.......CEO.......EVO.......SmashCon.......?

What if Ryu really was.......the best character in the game?

What if Ryu never got nerfed?

What if that kid who would win all those friendlies against the top players.......really was the best in the world?

What if he actually started APPLYING HIMSELF IN TOURNAMENTS?

What if.......Trela?

When I walk into a tournament now, I ask myself, "How will I lose today? Who will stop me?" Everyone's a threat and always will be, just as I wish to be onto them. Because I am capable of doing anything, just as they are. And when someone tells me that I can win this tournament or beat that player.......then it means I have already won.

I set out to be something in Smash. But now that I am something, it doesn't mean the journey has to end here. There's still more work to be done. Just know that this time, when I lose.......I'll come right back.

I can hear your theme song playing in the background already.

Not really... Roy's aerials in particular are more comparable to Pit's then Marth's. Only his Fair is really more rewarding then Pit's when you consider how bad Dair is.

Looking at the data, Marth and Roy at their sweetspots are very close together in damage, with Roy having a slight edge. The problem being that Marth's are much more practical to hit. Roy would be a lot scarier with SH autocancels.

 

[Mr. Johan]

The only game where Roy is flawed by design is his own damn game, because of that freakin chapter 22 promotion restriction >:[

Save gold, go to the secret shop, stock up on stat boost items and Boots, give them all to Roy post-promotion, beat Endgame in half a turn.

It's what I did. :V



Basically what I'm saying is let Roy have Equipment in Sm4sh.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So, I've been out of the game for a while. Could someone give me a tl;dr of what I've missed?

When did you stop paying attention to it?

 

[Xyro77]

Ever since the dawn of Smash 4, I've struggled to find the answer in what I was actually playing for, or what I was really fighting for. It was a debate I used to have with Xyro during the Brawl days on finding out who I was and who I wanted to be in Smash; Do I want fame? Or do I want fortune?

How about neither?

Fame? No, for it does not last.

Fortune? I could care less.

This quote from Shaya. This post right here. That is my answer.

"What if?"

Imagine this kid from Chile. The type of kid who you would meet at your local tournaments who's always giving it his all every time he plays. You've never heard of this kid, and you couldn't give a damn. But you're watching him play, and you see him improving. Eventually he starts winning your tournaments. He looks at you and says, "I want to go out of the country and become the best player in the world by winning the biggest tournaments against the best players." You just laugh at him. But in the back of your mind, after seeing what he was capable of, you can't help but ask yourself, "What if it really happened?"

That kid has now created a legacy in Smash that can never be forgotten.

So imagine me, this kid from Texas. He's been winning at his locals since Smash 4 came out. He uses Robin, Shulk, Charizard, Mewtwo, Doc, and Mii Swordfighter. But he could never win any major tournaments in his home state, let alone get even remotely close to doing something notable at a national when he started traveling. Then he saw an opportunity when a new character was revealed. A fighting game character was converted into a non-fighting game. The amount of options this character possessed was like nothing he's ever seen before in Smash. No one wanted to play him at the time, but he knew later on down the line that he would be the one everyone feared to go up against. So he took it upon himself. He knew there would be heavy losses along the way when he was playing a character like this one, but they hit him harder than he thought they would. He went on a hiatus.

Since his return, he has yet to lose a tournament.

What if he stopped looking at the puzzle itself.......and started looking at each individual piece?

What if losing now did not change his future.......but only pushed it back farther?

What if those losses were only building him up.......to become stronger?

What if he were to win a tournament like.......CEO.......EVO.......SmashCon.......?

What if Ryu really was.......the best character in the game?

What if Ryu never got nerfed?

What if that kid who would win all those friendlies against the top players.......really was the best in the world?

What if he actually started APPLYING HIMSELF IN TOURNAMENTS?

What if.......Trela?

When I walk into a tournament now, I ask myself, "How will I lose today? Who will stop me?" Everyone's a threat and always will be, just as I wish to be onto them. Because I am capable of doing anything, just as they are. And when someone tells me that I can win this tournament or beat that player.......then it means I have already won.

I set out to be something in Smash. But now that I am something, it doesn't mean the journey has to end here. There's still more work to be done. Just know that this time, when I lose.......I'll come right back.

*plays this song while reading*

https://youtu.be/Iof5pRAIZmw

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Wait, are people really arguing that heavies are easier to get in with and do damage than the speedy characters with lagless combo starters and amazing mobility? I mean sure Sheik might have to get in 3 times more to match Bowser's damage, but she is faster, safer, and can shut down a lot of character's options without needing to approach, but she has an amazing neutral and wins it easily, being able to outplay her opponents a lot more than characters like Bowser can.

 

[juddy96]

Pichu was actually a great choice for a joke character. Playable Pichu + Jigglypuff buffs for Smash 5. =V

@Trifroze is ZSS's dthrow -> downb ever a true 50/50, or is it just a fear read that tries to call out a panic airdodge? Also, are there any significant windows where she can't convert heavily off her grab? To my knowledge, she doesn't get too much guaranteed at very low percents (just an aerial and a juggle or stagger situation), and there is a decent percent range where uair is her only follow-up, but it won't kill.



TFW Ontario and BC get the shaft, LOL. Oh well, at least Alberta is represented. =V
Seriously though, if a Canadian crew ever does happen, I'd personally prefer more provincial representation over a possibly more optimized roster. Players like Big D, Captain L, Blacktwins, V115, and probably more of the Ontario PR could replace some of the Montreal players, and still make a similarly strong crew.

Ally, Blacktwins, Big D, Alphicans, and Raziek

 

[LancerStaff]

Looking at the data, Marth and Roy at their sweetspots are very close together in damage, with Roy having a slight edge. The problem being that Marth's are much more practical to hit. Roy would be a lot scarier with SH autocancels.

Marth's Ftilt does 9 or 12. Roy's does 8, 9 or 12.5. Marth's Dtilt does 7 or 10, Roy's does 6.5 or 11. Slight? That's not even noticeable... Marth's Fair is still more powerful overall, Roy's Nair only has more powerful sourspots, Marth's Bair does .5% more, and Marth has more powerful sourspots on Dair. Marth's aerials generally just function better outside of damage anyway. Then we have insanity like Marth's sourspots on Uair doing more damage then Roy's Uair could ever do.

Like, they switched around Marth's hitboxes and added an extra 1% at most, gave him a Metal Box and made practically no changes to accommodate for it, (Roy quite literally has Marth + Metal Box fallspeed BTW, though an actual MB increases jump height slightly to counteract it and I think Marth can autocancel like this as sad as it is,) increased his weight but made his recovery way worse on top of his disadvantage being worse, gave him mediocre throw combos and reduced the damage on his throws, increased his top speed stats and lowered his acceleration, reduced the range on a bunch of moves for ***** and giggles, and made Mexico people pay for him. There is no rhyme or reason to this character.

 

[Airpoizon]

Ever since the dawn of Smash 4, I've struggled to find the answer in what I was actually playing for, or what I was really fighting for. It was a debate I used to have with Xyro during the Brawl days on finding out who I was and who I wanted to be in Smash; Do I want fame? Or do I want fortune?

How about neither?

Fame? No, for it does not last.

Fortune? I could care less.

This quote from Shaya. This post right here. That is my answer.

"What if?"

Imagine this kid from Chile. The type of kid who you would meet at your local tournaments who's always giving it his all every time he plays. You've never heard of this kid, and you couldn't give a damn. But you're watching him play, and you see him improving. Eventually he starts winning your tournaments. He looks at you and says, "I want to go out of the country and become the best player in the world by winning the biggest tournaments against the best players." You just laugh at him. But in the back of your mind, after seeing what he was capable of, you can't help but ask yourself, "What if it really happened?"

That kid has now created a legacy in Smash that can never be forgotten.

So imagine me, this kid from Texas. He's been winning at his locals since Smash 4 came out. He uses Robin, Shulk, Charizard, Mewtwo, Doc, and Mii Swordfighter. But he could never win any major tournaments in his home state, let alone get even remotely close to doing something notable at a national when he started traveling. Then he saw an opportunity when a new character was revealed. A fighting game character was converted into a non-fighting game. The amount of options this character possessed was like nothing he's ever seen before in Smash. No one wanted to play him at the time, but he knew later on down the line that he would be the one everyone feared to go up against. So he took it upon himself. He knew there would be heavy losses along the way when he was playing a character like this one, but they hit him harder than he thought they would. He went on a hiatus.

Since his return, he has yet to lose a tournament.

What if he stopped looking at the puzzle itself.......and started looking at each individual piece?

What if losing now did not change his future.......but only pushed it back farther?

What if those losses were only building him up.......to become stronger?

What if he were to win a tournament like.......CEO.......EVO.......SmashCon.......?

What if Ryu really was.......the best character in the game?

What if Ryu never got nerfed?

What if that kid who would win all those friendlies against the top players.......really was the best in the world?

What if he actually started APPLYING HIMSELF IN TOURNAMENTS?

What if.......Trela?

When I walk into a tournament now, I ask myself, "How will I lose today? Who will stop me?" Everyone's a threat and always will be, just as I wish to be onto them. Because I am capable of doing anything, just as they are. And when someone tells me that I can win this tournament or beat that player.......then it means I have already won.

I set out to be something in Smash. But now that I am something, it doesn't mean the journey has to end here. There's still more work to be done. Just know that this time, when I lose.......I'll come right back.

That was beautiful dude

 

[|RK|]

Ever since the dawn of Smash 4, I've struggled to find the answer in what I was actually playing for, or what I was really fighting for. It was a debate I used to have with Xyro during the Brawl days on finding out who I was and who I wanted to be in Smash; Do I want fame? Or do I want fortune?

How about neither?

Fame? No, for it does not last.

Fortune? I could care less.

This quote from Shaya. This post right here. That is my answer.

"What if?"

Imagine this kid from Chile. The type of kid who you would meet at your local tournaments who's always giving it his all every time he plays. You've never heard of this kid, and you couldn't give a damn. But you're watching him play, and you see him improving. Eventually he starts winning your tournaments. He looks at you and says, "I want to go out of the country and become the best player in the world by winning the biggest tournaments against the best players." You just laugh at him. But in the back of your mind, after seeing what he was capable of, you can't help but ask yourself, "What if it really happened?"

That kid has now created a legacy in Smash that can never be forgotten.

So imagine me, this kid from Texas. He's been winning at his locals since Smash 4 came out. He uses Robin, Shulk, Charizard, Mewtwo, Doc, and Mii Swordfighter. But he could never win any major tournaments in his home state, let alone get even remotely close to doing something notable at a national when he started traveling. Then he saw an opportunity when a new character was revealed. A fighting game character was converted into a non-fighting game. The amount of options this character possessed was like nothing he's ever seen before in Smash. No one wanted to play him at the time, but he knew later on down the line that he would be the one everyone feared to go up against. So he took it upon himself. He knew there would be heavy losses along the way when he was playing a character like this one, but they hit him harder than he thought they would. He went on a hiatus.

Since his return, he has yet to lose a tournament.

What if he stopped looking at the puzzle itself.......and started looking at each individual piece?

What if losing now did not change his future.......but only pushed it back farther?

What if those losses were only building him up.......to become stronger?

What if he were to win a tournament like.......CEO.......EVO.......SmashCon.......?

What if Ryu really was.......the best character in the game?

What if Ryu never got nerfed?

What if that kid who would win all those friendlies against the top players.......really was the best in the world?

What if he actually started APPLYING HIMSELF IN TOURNAMENTS?

What if.......Trela?

When I walk into a tournament now, I ask myself, "How will I lose today? Who will stop me?" Everyone's a threat and always will be, just as I wish to be onto them. Because I am capable of doing anything, just as they are. And when someone tells me that I can win this tournament or beat that player.......then it means I have already won.

I set out to be something in Smash. But now that I am something, it doesn't mean the journey has to end here. There's still more work to be done. Just know that this time, when I lose.......I'll come right back.

Something about the Ryu mains in this thread... but I respect it. Looking forward to seeing your performances!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ever since the dawn of Smash 4, I've struggled to find the answer in what I was actually playing for, or what I was really fighting for. It was a debate I used to have with Xyro during the Brawl days on finding out who I was and who I wanted to be in Smash; Do I want fame? Or do I want fortune?

How about neither?

Fame? No, for it does not last.

Fortune? I could care less.

This quote from Shaya. This post right here. That is my answer.

"What if?"

Imagine this kid from Chile. The type of kid who you would meet at your local tournaments who's always giving it his all every time he plays. You've never heard of this kid, and you couldn't give a damn. But you're watching him play, and you see him improving. Eventually he starts winning your tournaments. He looks at you and says, "I want to go out of the country and become the best player in the world by winning the biggest tournaments against the best players." You just laugh at him. But in the back of your mind, after seeing what he was capable of, you can't help but ask yourself, "What if it really happened?"

That kid has now created a legacy in Smash that can never be forgotten.

So imagine me, this kid from Texas. He's been winning at his locals since Smash 4 came out. He uses Robin, Shulk, Charizard, Mewtwo, Doc, and Mii Swordfighter. But he could never win any major tournaments in his home state, let alone get even remotely close to doing something notable at a national when he started traveling. Then he saw an opportunity when a new character was revealed. A fighting game character was converted into a non-fighting game. The amount of options this character possessed was like nothing he's ever seen before in Smash. No one wanted to play him at the time, but he knew later on down the line that he would be the one everyone feared to go up against. So he took it upon himself. He knew there would be heavy losses along the way when he was playing a character like this one, but they hit him harder than he thought they would. He went on a hiatus.

Since his return, he has yet to lose a tournament.

What if he stopped looking at the puzzle itself.......and started looking at each individual piece?

What if losing now did not change his future.......but only pushed it back farther?

What if those losses were only building him up.......to become stronger?

What if he were to win a tournament like.......CEO.......EVO.......SmashCon.......?

What if Ryu really was.......the best character in the game?

What if Ryu never got nerfed?

What if that kid who would win all those friendlies against the top players.......really was the best in the world?

What if he actually started APPLYING HIMSELF IN TOURNAMENTS?

What if.......Trela?

When I walk into a tournament now, I ask myself, "How will I lose today? Who will stop me?" Everyone's a threat and always will be, just as I wish to be onto them. Because I am capable of doing anything, just as they are. And when someone tells me that I can win this tournament or beat that player.......then it means I have already won.

I set out to be something in Smash. But now that I am something, it doesn't mean the journey has to end here. There's still more work to be done. Just know that this time, when I lose.......I'll come right back.

It would appear that you are now ready for the knowledge I wish to bestow upon you.

Your power will grow to a level of which you never thought possible.

PREPARE YOURSELF, YOUNG DRAGON!!!!!

Oh, and check your inbox on facebook.

 

[C0rvus]

Damn, Trela, you just became my new favorite player. That was some inspiring stuff. I too am very unsure of my motivation, but that **** makes me remember. I want to win, I want to be a threat, I want to play good matches and play good players. I want to be a part of something great. I want to belong. Smash is MY game! I don't think I can handle Ryu, though.

Gonna go 0-2 at my local again tonight, but I'm gonna do it with a burning passion for improvement.

 

[outfoxd]

I....trela makes me want to ram Duck Hunt down the world's throat like i did before idealism gave way to pragmatism.

Edit: also i call first rights on the screenplay. Ill option it to Netflix myself

 

[Nemesis561]

Why does this thread periodically end up being steered towards free for all's? Who cares? I can guarantee the guys writing these super long FFA posts that most people are not gonna read them.. if you care or not, not sure but I'm just saying. I can only speak for myself but whenever I spot the phrase FFA in a post I'll probably move to the next post and I bet I'm not the only one

Anyways, good post Trela.. I'm rooting for you, you're by far my favorite player to watch keep up the great work

 

[iVoltage]

Damn, Trela, you just became my new favorite player. That was some inspiring stuff. I too am very unsure of my motivation, but that **** makes me remember. I want to win, I want to be a threat, I want to play good matches and play good players. I want to be a part of something great. I want to belong. Smash is MY game! I don't think I can handle Ryu, though.

Gonna go 0-2 at my local again tonight, but I'm gonna do it with a burning passion for improvement.

That's the spirit man, don't say you will go 0-2 though tell yourself you will win.

 

[meticulousboy]

Why does this thread periodically end up being steered towards free for all's? Who cares? I can guarantee the guys writing these super long FFA posts that most people are not gonna read them.. if you care or not, not sure but I'm just saying. I can only speak for myself but whenever I spot the phrase FFA in a post I'll probably move to the next post and I bet I'm not the only one

Anyways, good post Trela.. I'm rooting for you, you're by far my favorite player to watch keep up the great work

Pretty sure everyone here has to have played FFA'S at least once, even with items off.

 

[Megamang]

Its not that anyone cares about FFA, its that someone cares a lot.


While we're on stupid ass design decisions, why is spindash shield cancellable? Why is it invincible?

I'm just glad Sonic play actively discourages others from playing him. But im baffled at his design choice. They know heavies have to have weaknesses to offset certain things, yet they just throw all that balance to the wind and design the perfect runaway and be lame character. Do whatever it takes to win, but I really hope they gore sonic in s5 and make him unplayable, because he drastically decreases the quality of every game he is in.

 

[Nu~]

Its not that anyone cares about FFA, its that someone cares a lot.


While we're on stupid *** design decisions, why is spindash shield cancellable? Why is it invincible?

I'm just glad Sonic play actively discourages others from playing him. But im baffled at his design choice. They know heavies have to have weaknesses to offset certain things, yet they just throw all that balance to the wind and design the perfect runaway and be lame character. Do whatever it takes to win, but I really hope they gore sonic in s5 and make him unplayable, because he drastically decreases the quality of every game he is in.

Or just make him like his sonic battle incarnation and nerf the hell outta spindash

 

[Yikarur]

Still waiting for the videos of the Tournament where Trela beat Larry.
Any streamlink?

 

[Mr. Johan]

If Spindash couldn't be shield canceled and wasn't invincible, it would lose to every Jab 1 in the game easily on startup, on top of other moves.

 

[TurboLink]

Its not that anyone cares about FFA, its that someone cares a lot.


While we're on stupid *** design decisions, why is spindash shield cancellable? Why is it invincible?

I'm just glad Sonic play actively discourages others from playing him. But im baffled at his design choice. They know heavies have to have weaknesses to offset certain things, yet they just throw all that balance to the wind and design the perfect runaway and be lame character. Do whatever it takes to win, but I really hope they gore sonic in s5 and make him unplayable, because he drastically decreases the quality of every game he is in.

When did Spin Dash get invincibility?

 

[Jalil]

Ever since the dawn of Smash 4, I've struggled to find the answer in what I was actually playing for, or what I was really fighting for. It was a debate I used to have with Xyro during the Brawl days on finding out who I was and who I wanted to be in Smash; Do I want fame? Or do I want fortune?

How about neither?

Fame? No, for it does not last.

Fortune? I could care less.

This quote from Shaya. This post right here. That is my answer.

"What if?"

Imagine this kid from Chile. The type of kid who you would meet at your local tournaments who's always giving it his all every time he plays. You've never heard of this kid, and you couldn't give a damn. But you're watching him play, and you see him improving. Eventually he starts winning your tournaments. He looks at you and says, "I want to go out of the country and become the best player in the world by winning the biggest tournaments against the best players." You just laugh at him. But in the back of your mind, after seeing what he was capable of, you can't help but ask yourself, "What if it really happened?"

That kid has now created a legacy in Smash that can never be forgotten.

So imagine me, this kid from Texas. He's been winning at his locals since Smash 4 came out. He uses Robin, Shulk, Charizard, Mewtwo, Doc, and Mii Swordfighter. But he could never win any major tournaments in his home state, let alone get even remotely close to doing something notable at a national when he started traveling. Then he saw an opportunity when a new character was revealed. A fighting game character was converted into a non-fighting game. The amount of options this character possessed was like nothing he's ever seen before in Smash. No one wanted to play him at the time, but he knew later on down the line that he would be the one everyone feared to go up against. So he took it upon himself. He knew there would be heavy losses along the way when he was playing a character like this one, but they hit him harder than he thought they would. He went on a hiatus.

Since his return, he has yet to lose a tournament.

What if he stopped looking at the puzzle itself.......and started looking at each individual piece?

What if losing now did not change his future.......but only pushed it back farther?

What if those losses were only building him up.......to become stronger?

What if he were to win a tournament like.......CEO.......EVO.......SmashCon.......?

What if Ryu really was.......the best character in the game?

What if Ryu never got nerfed?

What if that kid who would win all those friendlies against the top players.......really was the best in the world?

What if he actually started APPLYING HIMSELF IN TOURNAMENTS?

What if.......Trela?

When I walk into a tournament now, I ask myself, "How will I lose today? Who will stop me?" Everyone's a threat and always will be, just as I wish to be onto them. Because I am capable of doing anything, just as they are. And when someone tells me that I can win this tournament or beat that player.......then it means I have already won.

I set out to be something in Smash. But now that I am something, it doesn't mean the journey has to end here. There's still more work to be done. Just know that this time, when I lose.......I'll come right back.