Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Mr. Johan]

Jr.'s placements can possibly give insight on how imperative it is to know how to play matchup before you go into it.

How many people know how to properly fight Clown Kart and the jump mixups therein? How many know when to pick up the Mechakoopa? Do they know about Fsmash's usefulness as a ledge counter option and the fantastically low endlag it has? Do they know Uair is probably the fastest juggle move in the game? Or that sweetspot Dsmash is ungodly strong so their rolling has to be immaculately spaced?

Absolutely no credit taken away from these Jr.s for getting as high a placing as they got. Now let's see if each one can replicate it.

 

[|RK|]

Jr.'s placements can possibly give insight on how imperative it is to know how to play matchup before you go into it.

How many people know how to properly fight Clown Kart and the jump mixups therein? How many know when to pick up the Mechakoopa? Do they know about Fsmash's usefulness as a ledge counter option and the fantastically low endlag it has? Do they know Uair is probably the fastest juggle move in the game? Or that sweetspot Dsmash is ungodly strong so their rolling has to be immaculately spaced?

Absolutely no credit taken away from these Jr.s for getting as high a placing as they got. Now let's see if each one can replicate it.

When *can* you pick up mechakoopa? Sorry if this is the wrong place - just curious.

 

[Trifroze]

I've been watching other fighting games as well as playing them on/off for a long time, which is why I know that whenever the sets become longer, especially when talking about FT10 exhibitions and such, skill plays a much larger role. This is because as the length of the set expands, you need to win more and more exchanges, thus surprises and dumb luck reads become a smaller and smaller fraction of the overall experience, and it's why the later bracket matches in any self-respecting tournament are BO5 instead of BO3.

This is also why upsets happen more in Japan's BO1 2 stock pools than they do in a 3 stock BO5 format for example. The fact that you two would call this a rookie mentality on the basis that traditional fighting games are decided on "fewer" neutral exchanges than Smash 4 shows that not only are you the ones who clearly have no idea what you're talking about, but you're actually posting around trying to put it on someone else. Traditional fighting games work completely differently than Smash.

Positioning is an important part of Smash, but it's ten times more important in traditional fighting games. Let's look at SF: movement is slower, burst range is smaller and jumps are an infinitely bigger commitment. Everything that changes your positioning or pushes the opponent backwards / lets them close in on you is practically a neutral exchange, everything that builds meter is practically a neutral exchange, every whiff punish that doesn't start anything big is a neutral exchange, and every big combo is more difficult to hit confirm and execute than in Smash. You can't just run at someone because reasons, then autocombo them for a third of their stock/life (although some designs even in SF are much closer to this than others). Every round in SF is comparable to a stock in Smash, so it isn't like the sets are objectively that much shorter either.

That, and Smash is actually known for its relatively rich and dynamic neutral and the fact that advantage isn't as linear as in traditional fighting games (resets and character specific things still exist in those as well though), it's a bunch of possibilities depending on several factors like %, character, DI and your opponent's habits in disadvantage (because they can actually do something there in Smash). Grab combos, when everything revolves around them, are effortless to pull off and arguably ignore everything that's special about Smash. It's why I personally stopped playing Falcon, his neutral ultimately became boring to play with his effortless, low risk dash grab game. ZSS' grab on the other hand is high risk, so you have to condition your opponent to be scared and sit in shield instead of just going for it all the time, then when they get used to it, condition them again. It's dynamic and interesting (and I'm glad for the nerfs, just mad they didn't compensate a bit more elsewhere because I want my character to be borderline broken).

Anyway, think I'm going to pull back from posting here for a while.

 

[Vyrnx]

they live far longer, benefiting more from rage

They are undeniably more extreme than Luigi in both directions

he can beat any player by guessing right a few times in 2-3 consecutive matches, just as he could always be beaten by anyone doing the same thing.

A match decided by only a few exchanges is uncompetitive.

It seems like your issue is more with the design of heavies and the rage mechanic in general than it is with Bowser's uthrow specifically.

It's undeniable that, yes, Bowser can make a read and get a kill at early percents off of grab. He can make reads and get kills just as early off of bair, uair, and smash attacks, and can get early kills off of side b and fthrow. He can get big damage off of grabs at low percents. Remove Bowser's uthrow from the game, he'd still beat Vinnie's Rosa and he'd still do it in very few interactions. He gets big conversions off reads, lives forever, takes advantage of rage, but can get read himself and stay in disadvantage forever.

This is standard for heavies in Smash. What makes this bad design compared to the design of, say, Sheik (I'm just using Sheik as a filler for the general top tier design)? Maybe Bowser gets big reward for reads and can utilize rage while Sheik can't, but Sheik can abuse her extreme safety and combo moves forever while Bowser can't. Bowser is extremely polarized, Sheik is not--yet Bowser is considered poorly designed. I'm not even saying Sheik is poorly designed, more just asking why a polarized design is, "bad," while the non-polarized but still extreme design of other characters isn't.

There isn't really a good guideline for, "bad design," right now. Matches being decided in few exchanges isn't bad design, it's heavy design, and heavy design isn't inherently bad or uncompetitive just because it isn't the fast/chippy/technical style of Sheik, or the many other designs on non top tiers that are considered, "good."

LordMix did not rely on grab as his crutch, the biggest evidence for this being that he almost never just fished for grabs--after all, once the grab setup window ends, Bowser's kill options certainly don't. What's more, he killed Vinnie at ~55% with a bair read, Ally at ~70% with an usmash read, and Vinnie again at ~70% with an uair read (percents they were at before getting hit by the moves). There were many other kills in the 85-110% range. I don't believe he ever grabbed someone below 80% and killed them. The reason I bring this up is because this just shows Bowser's design as a heavy--big reward off reads. And Bowser does need a read to get a grab, given his neutral. Opponents can't press buttons against him, and they have to act cagey at 80% plus, but this is still just the design of a heavy character, and not bad design.

Edit: Also really not trying to gang up on you or be disrespectful, sorry if it comes across that way.

 

[Greward]

I didn't look at Bowser in a vacuum, I criticized his gameplan. It centers around his grab the exact same way as Luigi's did: it's his best way of doing damage at low percents and his best way of killing at higher percents. It wasn't abused versus a Rosalina because she's probably the worst character to perform grab setups on due to her floatiness and Luma interrupting you.

Also ( Jams. as well), Bowser never having the same effect on the meta as Luigi did is a brave thing to claim, especially right after a Bowser beat players like Vinnie and Void (and almost Ally) and got 4th place at a tournament that was stacked towards top 16, something Luigi hardly ever managed to do. It already proves that the character is able to do it. Meanwhile DK has been contesting top players and characters for a long time through a few notable players.

The fact that their weaknesses are more exploitable than Luigi's might be made up for by the fact that their grab setups kill 50% earlier and that they live far longer, benefiting more from rage. They are undeniably more extreme than Luigi in both directions and we can't pretend to know how it all pans out when the characters are put into actual effect.

Either way like I said, even if this is not the case, you'd only be allowing DK and Bowser to have a super explosive and simplified gameplan because they're not that good regardless. But a character can be badly designed without being good. I once made an example that, if there's a character who has mid to low tier tools but has a 10% chance to automatically win any match as it starts, they'd be straight up cancerous to individual players in a bracket, yet they could never win any sizeable tournaments. The same way Bowser for instance might never be able to win anything big, but he can beat any player by guessing right a few times in 2-3 consecutive matches, just as he could always be beaten by anyone doing the same thing. Even if the opponent always has better odds for this, no one wants a match to be decided based on just a few exchanges per stock.

The only opposing arguments left are: "Bowser doesn't rely on grab that much" and "Bowser can't take a stock off reliably with just a few guesses", and both of them are straight up untrue. He relies on grab more than anything else because the risk reward ratio for it is completely twisted (the fact that grab isn't the only move he ever uses or even 2/3 of the moves he ever uses doesn't mean he doesn't heavily rely on grab). He can do 20-30% damage per grab easily, and he only needs 70-80% to take a stock off in most cases. For DK, this is even worse because his grab is better, he can do more damage per grab, and he kills with it earlier.

A match decided by only a few exchanges is uncompetitive. One tool being the optimal choice over all other tools in most scenarios is bad moveset design. DK and Bowser can take a stock off consistently with only 3-4 actual neutral wins. And they do most of it with one move.

You're pretty much right in everything.

I'm a bowser main (I also play DK as a second), I'm getting great results with him in my region and I can completely see where you are coming from.
Bowser upthrow is stupid good and completely overcentralizes his game around it. Basically you are getting 27-31% damage per grab and killing around 70-90%. This pretty much means that in 3-4 grabs you can get a stock (even less if you are fighting super lightweights like Rosalina that I remember killing as early as 55%).
I don't think it's bad for a character like Bowser to be killing in 4 reads (he can actually do that without any grab), it's just that the fact that the other tools aren't as good as grab that makes you fish for it. And the fact that the window is limited makes the gameplan idiotic.

So you basically get him to 80% when you can kill with the grab, so you fish for it, because otherwise you're going to wait 30 more % to kill off side B, which is slightly worse. Even if you lose neutral a few times it's usually worth it. So yeah, this isn't much healthy, and it's even more of a problem with DK that got worse killing options than bowser and usually has to rely on uptilt and bair to kill.

Besides the grab combo is actually very close to being the strongest damage racking combo (bowser does have landing nair into bair but it's unreliable as hell, DK might have some spike into stuff ****), so you want to do it for both damage and killing.
This basically leaves all other options as "gimmicky super early kill move" (bowser Fsmash) or "i have to do this because i can't grab".

I'm pretty sure Bowser will become as hated as Luigi was in not much time (he already is in my region lol). He's actually very good, lordmix results aren't a fluke and they will happen again. He will be kept in check by a few awful matchups, but he's definitely stronger than DK imo in most matchups. He's also super easy to play so we'll see.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Similar to when ZSS gets rage and ends a stock with upair, upair, upb. Or when Sheik uses the smashville platform to fair, fair, and bfish. Or when rage Mario gets up air, up air, to up b. Or rage Falcon killing with rapid jab at the edge of the stage. I can go on about how every character has tools that destroy their opponent when they have rage.

It's just that heavies are heavier, get more rage, and have the tools to utilize it better (especially with something as easy as grab combos, smash read)

And I think that's what Trifroze is frustrated about.

EDIT: By heavies I mostly mean DK and Bowser

EDIT 2: Although I agree that grapplers in this game need ridiculous things like this to help round out their gameplan better and to keep up with everyone else in the game, I can see where he's coming from as a player

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Think I'm going to pull back from posting here for a while.

I don't think that it's really necessary to exit a discussion page because your points are met with disagreement and rebuttal. I, for one, find your comments insightful and worth reading, even if I sometimes disagree with them. You seem to have a better technical understanding of this game than a lot of people in this thread, which we need.

That said, I am heavily late (no pun intended) to this discussion and I have my own thoughts on grappling and heavyweights.

First, let's get this out of the way: smash, being a celebration of Nintendo history and characters, is going to always, always, always have a diverse roster where light, fast waifus and animals will be put in a stage against fat, sluggish bosses. There will always be heavies in smash. So for some people in this thread to say "heavies are inherently bad game design" is just unproductive, and contributes nothing to the discussion of game balance because this franchise will have heavies forever.

Now that we have established that heavies and their polarizing designs, for better and for worse, will ALWAYS be in smash, we are free to make a decision. We can choose to have BAD heavies as we have had throughout history, who are compensated in almost no way for their competitively unusable archetype, or we can have GOOD heavies, who are volatile, get a lot off of reads, and have extreme strengths (survivability, kill power) in exchange for crippling weaknesses (frame data, landing).

There are pros and cons to both. A smash game with bad heavies means you don't have to worry about dying at 60, you don't have to adjust your playstyle as much, and you have less matchups to learn. The cons to this are you have a significantly less diverse roster, characters that objectively suck, and basically a single dominant playstyle of fast, safe aggression. With good heavies, you have more options as a player, there is more comeback potential as a spectator sport, and you have an infinitely more diverse metagame.

I personally prefer the latter, but it's clear that this notion is not shared by some of you, including Trifroze, and that's perfectly fine because there's always room for dissent in discussion.

 

[jespoke]

Jr.'s placements can possibly give insight on how imperative it is to know how to play matchup before you go into it.

How many people know how to properly fight Clown Kart and the jump mixups therein? How many know when to pick up the Mechakoopa? Do they know about Fsmash's usefulness as a ledge counter option and the fantastically low endlag it has? Do they know Uair is probably the fastest juggle move in the game? Or that sweetspot Dsmash is ungodly strong so their rolling has to be immaculately spaced?

Absolutely no credit taken away from these Jr.s for getting as high a placing as they got. Now let's see if each one can replicate it.

I can say i didn't know half of these, and got rekt harder than i ever have before or since when i met the local (regional?) Bowser Jr player in bracket.

 

[Nobie]

I think there are two major differences between Pre-Patch Luigi and Donkey Kong/Bowser.

First, as someone mentioned, the window for Luigi down throw into whatever was much larger than the Ding Dong or the Bowser Thing of a Million Names. For DK and Bowser, it's on them to know when their throws stop comboing due to damage and rage. Maybe I'm selling the old Luigi a little short, but to me it looked like once the opponent reached kill percent Luigi could fish for grab without worry of them falling out of effective kill range. The DK/Bowser users have the edge because they're more likely to have labbed these percentages, so it also becomes something for the opponent to learn as well.

Second, and I think this is the more important one, Bowser and DK don't have a go-to tactic to fish for grabs. They both have good grabs in and of themselves, and they're both pretty quick on the ground in certain ways, but they have nothing that compares to fireball -> grab. Luigi's fireball controls the ground very well, and it's only against those who can thwart that basic gameplay that he starts to really fall apart. When Bowser and DK fish for grabs, it's with the awareness that they don't have the best frame data (unlike Luigi), don't have a reliable safe projectile to approach, and are giant meaty punching bags that (again) don't have the kind of moves or frame data that can save them like a safe neutral air.

 

[Trifroze]

Disagreement is expected, rebuttals or attempts of such are necessary and misunderstandings are fine, but passive-aggressively or offensively calling someone out on something isn't, especially if there really isn't any basis for it.

Also, sometimes even misunderstandings get out of hand when parts of your posts are picked off out of context by multiple people at once without most of them really checking the entire string of posts behind it, or sometimes even trying to understand the point. The reason I'll pull back for now is that it'll keep on going for as long as I don't, I've said all there really is to say (and more).

 

[Jams.]

I think I have a better understanding of Trifroze's argument now, and I think his position is reasonable. It just comes down to a difference of opinion where most of us find the current design of DK and Bowser acceptable.

Here's a summary of what I think his main points are, since his posts are kind of long and people might just skim them and miss the main ideas.

• DK and Bowser are overcentralized around their grabs. This means that they have to think less about option select or choosing sub-optimal options. Smart option select in a dynamic situation is one of the fundamentals of Smash, and DK and Bowser undermine this principle.
  
• DK and Bowser are able to win or lose games off fewer interactions in neutral on average than anyone else. This means that players have less time to adapt and read the other player, another fundamental skill, and games will more often be decided based on "guesses."

Basically, their design is bad design because it reduces the importance of some fundamental skills in Smash.

 

[Thinkaman]

The way to contest grabs is fast(er) moves.

Throwing out fast moves against heavies is par for the course in many situations.

Luigi, on the other hand, has the lowest average moveset frame startup in the game. You want to get into a War of Buttons with Luigi? Good luck.

Add in fireballs, and you have a totally different context.

 

[Mario766]

Luigi wasn't just about the grab plus conversions. He still had the lowest start-up in the game but had other very annoying aspects.

Fireballs were plus on shield, making it useless to shield unless you could PS. A bad approach with a non-PS could get you grabbed. Pre-Patch, this would mean upwards to 30-40 percent depending on your fall speed/weight, which was just obnoxious to play against. Most characters just had to play super passive vs Luigi to do anything because getting grabbed was almost half your stock. Luigi could kill you off 3-4 grabs just like a Heavy, BUT still having the lowest start-up in the game on average.

Compare that to DK or Bowser, who have nowhere near as good start-up on moves, a smaller window to kill confirm, one doesn't even have a projectile so there goes the anti-shield option, Bowser on the other hand has neutral B which is...ok? Still isn't anywhere near what pre-patch fireball was for Luigi.

Trying to compare pre-patch Luigi to what Bowser/DK is now is a really bad comparsion, they are nothing like what pre-patch Luigi was in terms of stupidity.

 

[LancerStaff]

If the jab lock isn't feasible to perform on a consistent basis (since would be most likely performed in FFA), that doesn't seem like a strong reason to add an unnecessary tech.....plus jab locks with Ganon aren't too strong and jab locks only hit 3 times. In other words, that's not a strong enough reason to Nerf one of his few true moves that put the heat on the opponent to react.

Also, the argument was why untechable is better, not the binary response of will they or won't. They probably won't, but they did make his aerial version unteachable in a patch.

It's OK to back out arguments if you're wrong, but persistence until you get to the point of saying "Aha, I got you!" While making strawmans along the way isn't all to wise IMO.

See, this is what I mean about putting FFA balance before everything else... They considered the jab lock to be more of a problem then Dorf tanking in 1v1s. They didn't even bother with a work around.

The argument never was about wether or not being techable was better. You made that assumption somewhere.

...What strawman? There wasn't any "gotcha" either. We've been on different planets since this conversation started.

 

[san.]

I disagree that Bowser/DK are overcentralized by their grabs, since they have a workable set of jabs, tilts, and aerials with some situational specials & smashes. Every character fishes for kill confirms at kill %, it just happens to be grab for Bowser and DK.

I do think that it would be nicer for Bowser/DK to have a wider array of kill confirms if the grab confirms were bumped up by 10-15%. It's unfortunate because the low rage grab confirms are neat, but with rage you can get some really early stuff that can be annoying.

The lack of shields sliding off the edge reduced a lot of creativity in heavy character setups, though with the shieldstun we have now, I'm not sure how good a mechanic it would be if it was included. I think what we have now is overall OK.

 

[Man Li Gi]

See, this is what I mean about putting FFA balance before everything else... They considered the jab lock to be more of a problem then Dorf tanking in 1v1s. They didn't even bother with a work around.

The argument never was about wether or not being techable was better. You made that assumption somewhere.

...What strawman? There wasn't any "gotcha" either. We've been on different planets since this conversation started.

I made the "assumption" when I started this saying that Ganon should have an untechable Flame Choke. I didn't suddenly mince my own words for the sake of arguments.

Your "gotcha", was when you said they won't, which wasn't a part of the argument. I was arguing how silly or nonsensical that they took it out. In other words, I am just confused on the sudden loss of it and still discussing something that may or may not happen.

I really don't want to get into a subject that I don't feel comfortable talking about in the form of FFA. IIRC, you're the user that's mad obsessed with it and were the reason it became a red subject. All I can say about it is that I feel whenever there's a core problem with characters and there's a feasible solution to it, suddenly people say stuff like "it would be broken in X mode".…..... and then in one fell swoop the conversation dies. Saying "FFA reasons" isn't always true too. Many doubles starts were nerfed, those ding dongs/shell shocks (very hard to do in FFAs); and Peach infinites were nerfed.

Also, Ganon really can't jab lock even if he wanted to since just has too much knock back.

 

[PK Gaming]

Yeah, not sure I agree with either DK or Bowser being overcentralized around their grabs. If anything, LordMix was the first player to really show us what Bowser could really do by making use out of all of Bowser's options (coupled with some clutch recovering skills). The fact that he could keep up with Ally's Mario of all characters (a matchup that was traditionally thought to be free as a **** for Mario) is a testament to his skill as a player and Bowser's value in a competitive setting. Like, you can harp on his ridiculous kill set ups, but Bowser has to contend with his abysmal disadvantage state. This is a character that can eat like 60-70% just from trying to land.

So it's lopsided on both ends, but it's part of the Smash Bros charm. I love the fact that Bowser actually feels like Bowser from his source games. He's got power for days, but his weaknesses will spell disaster. It adds some personality to the character, even if it introduces some jank. Even though I hate fighting him, i'm satisfied with how he turned out.

 

[Ninety]

Did it seem to anyone else that Ally, unlike Vinnie, never seemed to shield and punish LordMix's dair landings? Maybe he was intimidated by the prospect of down B shield breaks?

 

[Nobie]

The way to contest grabs is fast(er) moves.

Throwing out fast moves against heavies is par for the course in many situations.

Luigi, on the other hand, has the lowest average moveset frame startup in the game. You want to get into a War of Buttons with Luigi? Good luck.

Add in fireballs, and you have a totally different context.

Speaking of, how is the Little Mac vs. Luigi matchup?

 

[LancerStaff]

I made the "assumption" when I started this saying that Ganon should have an untechable Flame Choke. I didn't suddenly mince my own words for the sake of arguments.

Your "gotcha", was when you said they won't, which wasn't a part of the argument. I was arguing how silly or nonsensical that they took it out. In other words, I am just confused on the sudden loss of it and still discussing something that may or may not happen.

I really don't want to get into a subject that I don't feel comfortable talking about in the form of FFA. IIRC, you're the user that's mad obsessed with it and were the reason it became a red subject. All I can say about it is that I feel whenever there's a core problem with characters and there's a feasible solution to it, suddenly people say stuff like "it would be broken in X mode".…..... and then in one fell swoop the conversation dies. Saying "FFA reasons" isn't always true too. Many doubles starts were nerfed, those ding dongs/shell shocks (very hard to do in FFAs); and Peach infinites were nerfed.

Also, Ganon really can't jab lock even if he wanted to since just has too much knock back.

And I never said he should or shouldn't. I never even disagreed. I just said he wouldn't, and that was the first thing I said on the matter. Who'd I "get?"

FFAs aren't even a red topic, unless there's an amendment buried somewhere on page 216 or something... Here, I grabbed the only mentions.

Green Topics are central topics that are explicitly okay to discuss as much as you want:
Comparisons of Gameplay in Different Environments
>1v1 vs 2v2 vs 3v3 vs 4v4 vs FFA

Red Topics are explicitly banned. Any post that focuses on them is grounds for a spam infraction.
Game Preference Discussion
Includes how much you don't respect/like FFAs or online play.

"FFA reasons" still very much stands with those examples. Most doubles strats were strong for quite a long time, remember, and it wasn't until they came up with a solution that specifically only applied to doubles that we got it. Ding dong being hard to perform in FFAs is why they could add it to begin with, and changing a hitbox that's useless in any other situation to remove an infinite wasn't some giant undertaking either. One or two 1v1 oriented changes does not debunk the notion that FFAs are the primary way the game is balanced and developed.

 

[Mecakoto]

FFAs aren't even a red topic, unless there's an amendment buried somewhere on page 216 or something.

I lurk a lot. I'm going to try to be more active, but bro. You make me wish it was a red topic.

And really, what does the "why" of balance add to competitive discussion? Who cares if there is a focus on FFA? (There isn't. I've seen people give you links of interviews disproving you. More then once.) How does the focus of balance affect how we play the game? How does it affect the metagame at this moment, right now. It doesn't. The why of the balance has no effect on the here and now. It's a fruitless discussion. It's of no value in the scheme of competitive play and discussion.

We've got our game. We have our tools. We can guess how our tools may, or may not, change. But, at the end of the day, you're asking why they make so many black George Foreman Grills instead of using the damn thing.

 

[DunnoBro]

Yeah, not sure I agree with either DK or Bowser being overcentralized around their grabs. If anything, LordMix was the first player to really show us what Bowser could really do by making use out of all of Bowser's options (coupled with some clutch recovering skills). The fact that he could keep up with Ally's Mario of all characters (a matchup that was traditionally thought to be free as a **** for Mario) is a testament to his skill as a player and Bowser's value in a competitive setting. Like, you can harp on his ridiculous kill set ups, but Bowser has to contend with his abysmal disadvantage state. This is a character that can eat like 60-70% just from trying to land.

So it's lopsided on both ends, but it's part of the Smash Bros charm. I love the fact that Bowser actually feels like Bowser from his source games. He's got power for days, but his weaknesses will spell disaster. It adds some personality to the character, even if it introduces some jank. Even though I hate fighting him, i'm satisfied with how he turned out.

No mario thought of the bowser mu as free if they actually played it lol

Ally almost lost to KingKong's bowser recently too

 

[Das Koopa]

two weekend's worth of tournies of results, don't take this too seriously because it'll likely drastically change

(Combo Breaker excluded because some idiot decided it shouldn't be 1.1.6 making it irrelevant as a tourney outside of showing that ESAM has powered up and that MVD is good at Diddy dittos, rip Zinoto)

Spoiler

Sheik: 69
Cloud: 66
Mario: 49.5
Fox: 42
Diddy Kong: 41
Sonic: 39
Zero Suit Samus: 35.5
Captain Falcon: 28.5
Meta Knight: 27
Pikachu: 19
Lucas: 18
Rosalina & Luma: 16
Ryu: 15
Duck Hunt: 14
Donkey Kong: 14
Ike: 13
Mega Man: 12
Bayonetta: 12
Pit: 12
Marth: 11
Lucario: 11
Robin: 11
Toon Link: 11
Little Mac: 10
Peach: 9
Mewtwo: 8
Luigi: 8
Wario: 7
Bowser: 7
Corrin: 6.5
King Dedede: 6.5
Shulk: 5
Greninja: 5
Villager: 5
Bowser Jr.: 4
Palutena: 3
Link: 3
Kirby: 2
Yoshi: 1
R.O.B: 1

 

[ARGHETH]

I lurk a lot. I'm going to try to be more active, but bro. You make me wish it was a red topic.

And really, what does the "why" of balance add to competitive discussion? Who cares if there is a focus on FFA? (There isn't. I've seen people give you links of interviews disproving you. More then once.) How does the focus of balance affect how we play the game? How does it affect the metagame at this moment, right now. It doesn't. The why of the balance has no effect on the here and now. It's a fruitless discussion. It's of no value in the scheme of competitive play and discussion.

We've got our game. We have our tools. We can guess how our tools may, or may not, change. But, at the end of the day, you're asking why they make so many black George Foreman Grills instead of using the damn thing.

Normally I'd agree that Lancer talks about FFAs way too much and that balance is in no way FFA-concentrated...but I'm pretty sure Flame Choke was made untechable because of Brawl item infinites (I remember seeing a video with the Beam Sword).
They've been talking about completely different things ever since this thing started... the general conversation was talking about how Flame Choke should be techable, while Lancer was saying it won't be because infinites. (If he was talking about doing it with jab, he's mistaken. iirc, it's only with certain items).

 

[LancerStaff]

I lurk a lot. I'm going to try to be more active, but bro. You make me wish it was a red topic.

And really, what does the "why" of balance add to competitive discussion? Who cares if there is a focus on FFA? (There isn't. I've seen people give you links of interviews disproving you. More then once.) How does the focus of balance affect how we play the game? How does it affect the metagame at this moment, right now. It doesn't. The why of the balance has no effect on the here and now. It's a fruitless discussion. It's of no value in the scheme of competitive play and discussion.

We've got our game. We have our tools. We can guess how our tools may, or may not, change. But, at the end of the day, you're asking why they make so many black George Foreman Grills instead of using the damn thing.

Ever consider that it hasn't been made a red topic for a reason? For real, I don't think I've even been given a spam warning for bringing it up.

Well for starters when people complain about why XYZ is so good and 123 is so bad it's a pretty reasonable explanation. Characters, moves, whatever... When discussing potential changes, not exactly uncommon considering we got a patch less then a month ago, it's also quite relevant.

Generally people want to know the how and why and not just simply exist. Seems to be a reoccurring thing in humanity and not just children's video games.

Normally I'd agree that Lancer talks about FFAs way too much and that balance is in no way FFA-concentrated...but I'm pretty sure Flame Choke was made untechable because of Brawl item infinites (I remember seeing a video with the Beam Sword).
They've been talking about completely different things ever since this thing started... the general conversation was talking about how Flame Choke should be techable, while Lancer was saying it won't be because infinites. (If he was talking about doing it with jab, he's mistaken. iirc, it's only with certain items).

...I never said Dorf could jab lock (significantly?) without items. Maybe I forgot to mention he couldn't without items, but that's it.

 

[Fatmanonice]

When *can* you pick up mechakoopa? Sorry if this is the wrong place - just curious.

When? I don't know the frame specifics but you can pick it up by simply pushing A (timing's kind of strict and you risk jabbing it) or short hopping and immediately air dodging if it's close enough. You can also pick it up by dash attacking into it by the timing can be tricky for some characters. For some characters like , the timing is pretty generous but for characters like (ironically), the timing is more strict. Picking up the mecha koopa doesn't necessarily mean you have the advantage though because you have to get rid of it or it'll explode on you. It can also be kind of an inconvenience because it greatly limits what you can do while holding it. I play Iggy in tournaments and I'd argue that it's a great tool for manipulating your opponent's actions because 90% of your opponents will either try to avoid it like the plague or try grabbing it and throwing it at you. A lot of people don't mix it up so you can quickly pick up on bad habits by letting it derp about in a lot of match ups.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Ever consider that it hasn't been made a red topic for a reason? For real, I don't think I've even been given a spam warning for bringing it up.

Well for starters when people complain about why XYZ is so good and 123 is so bad it's a pretty reasonable explanation. Characters, moves, whatever... When discussing potential changes, not exactly uncommon considering we got a patch less then a month ago, it's also quite relevant.

Generally people want to know the how and why and not just simply exist. Seems to be a reoccurring thing in humanity and not just children's video games.



...I never said Dorf could jab lock (significantly?) without items. Maybe I forgot to mention he couldn't without items, but that's it.

People seem to forget his dair -> footstool -> tipman upair
this is a jab lock combo for him that could lead to a huge amount of damage

 

[Charoite]

The best bowser made more kills with reads with smashes against top players, he only got kills of the grab combo like 2 times, i have seen more cookie cutter stuff from the likes of at top play, if the whole " grab combo overshadow half of it moveset were true dont you think the considered best player of said character would abuse the set up knowing that is so good at getting "free kills".

Lord mix used the grab setup less times than a top diddy uses down tilt to up smash, god forbid characters uses their kill set up.

About Heavyweight design in smash, is good thing that the weakness of combo oriented speedy lightweight characters is finally showing in a smash game against other non-speedy character, is at most like there was others archetype of character in smash but they were too bad to fight against the top, if you dont like this you can use a different character, that work for zoners.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Jr.'s placements can possibly give insight on how imperative it is to know how to play matchup before you go into it.

How many people know how to properly fight Clown Kart and the jump mixups therein? How many know when to pick up the Mechakoopa? Do they know about Fsmash's usefulness as a ledge counter option and the fantastically low endlag it has? Do they know Uair is probably the fastest juggle move in the game? Or that sweetspot Dsmash is ungodly strong so their rolling has to be immaculately spaced?

Absolutely no credit taken away from these Jr.s for getting as high a placing as they got. Now let's see if each one can replicate it.

It's true. Bowser Jr is a lot like Little Mac and Dedede in that they only excel when people don't know the match up. I'd argue that Bowser Jr is a little more capable though because there's a lot about the character that can easily throw people off.

1. Fsmash/ bair/ bthrow/ the Ban Hammer can kill surprisingly early, especially by the edge.

2. He's the most capable combo heavyweight in the game aside from Ryu.

3. Many of Bowser Jrs attacks' end lag can quickly be cancelled into dtilt and ftilt. Both moves are capable of killing at higher percentages too. Also good for purposely whiffing attacks to get people to approach only be knocked away by how fast those two attacks are.

4. The mecha koopa is basically a walking version of Snake's grenades.

5. The Koopa Kart can combo into a uair even at unusually high percentages (think 150-170% high) if your reactions are fast enough.

6. Lots of lingering hit boxes. Fsmash/fair/dair/dtilt/usmash/abandon ship.

7. The Ban Hammer has a hitbox the entire duration of the swing, meaning it can hit you (and kill you) right as it comes out. This means that a Bowser Jr player can recover low, deliberately miss the edge and then hit you with the backswing right before they land.

8. Bowser Jr is one of the few characters that can angle their Fsmash.

9. If Bowser Jr. regrabs his mecha koopa, it can explode and not injure him. Like the Links, he can also hang onto it and then shield to damage people in the ensuing explosion.

10. The Koopa cannonball sinks as it travels, great for "ball taps" against low recovering characters.

11. Damage and knockback is slightly different if a person hits the Koopa Kart or Bowser Jr himself.

12. Bowser Jr can ledge cancel the landing of Abandon Ship/Ban Hammer.

This all being said, there's a lot that the character can get away with if they're not used to fighting him.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Oh, you call it the Ban Hammer? I've just been calling it Knick Knack Hammer Whack.

Also I think Jr. Fair actively triggers me with how long it stays out.


Can't Jr. also use Usmash OoS for the quick 105% kill? What frame does it come out? It's pretty damn fast for how strong it is.

 

[Shaya]

They gave Marth a relatively safe, fast start up, follow up or 50/50s able jab over giving him a combo throw.
Closest thing to that among the heavies is DK's jab or Ryu's entire move set (lol).
Tools like those which can be used as anti airs/pokes with low scaling knockback that give consistent damage but at the same time consistent options to an opponent to avoid the deadliest follow ups.

Meanwhile all such moves that could fit the bill animation wise are usually sending horizontally and may give you a follow up at 0% and may trip/force a tech slightly later and then nothing.

And I feel quite bad for Trifroze here as just about everything he has said is agreeable; having characters that are completely polarized towards one move is awful, and if it's with grab it's not only awful it's incredibly daunting to compete against because of the sheer universal strength of shield and grab in this game, if beating someone who only needs to shield and dash grab wasn't so obscenely difficult (unless you have insane grab follow ups yourself; a consistent theme of smash4) these characters wouldn't be seen as problematic.

We have this tendency to think anything silly is fine until a top level player shows up and wins with it, or the they themselves actually have to experience it in tournament (or otherwise) frequently enough because as tough as it is for a heavy to win neutral, it's just as tough for 90% of the cast to deal with shield unless they have skewed/above average grab reward or their opponent has very very skewed attack reward and mobility (Fox is a good example). Game play stagnates when characters don't have a reason to take risk because two out of three main [RPS] options do all the work for them.

While we're talking about this notion, I've had this on my mind brewing recently, especially after Trela's success at 2g fresh saga where afterwards he has made it quite obvious he believes Ryu is absurdly over rewarded and that "input difficulty" is a joke for letting him be that strong (love this guy so much). With most top tiers losing the grab rewards (and them remaining competitive with the rest of the cast for the most part), Ryu must legitimately have the scariest shield in the game with his exceptionally low cool downs, start up and obscene damage output and weight. And although it isn't grab, him being close range to you is essentially already an advantageous situation for him (that no one is safe against), and I can't help but wonder... why?
He abuses the defensive options of Smash (because SF chars aren't designed to have an omnipotent shield) better than everyone else because there's close to no risk in his moveset, and there's almost no one who gets more out of grabbing him then he gets out of hitting you ... with anything.

DK/Bowser/etc wouldn't need their grab rewards as they were if they had tilts with half the start up and half the cooldown like Ryu has (obviously half or less damage too). But who wants multiple Ryus running about ? I have not-fond memories of Bowser in PM in which essentially every move he had was very early start up super armor and nothing was low enough knockback to crouch cancel grab him, equating to your character either having a chance to deal damage without challenging him or zero chance at all.
People don't seem to want another Luigi either (who infamously has that shield advantage fire ball and had the insane reward for grabs).

The issue to me comes down to shield being too good in Smash Bros, particularly the 4th edition on the Wiiu & 3DS -
Remember when angling shield was an important skill to avoid being poked in Brawl?
Grab armor ironically making the risk of engaging someone shielding safer because shield drop Ryu down/up tilt into your stock's gone wouldn't be beating every universal option this game has like it does now? (I hope Trela's domination of at least two major top level players; VoID and Larry recently, can be adapted to, but it's looking mighty difficult).
And while shield is this good, whoever can avoid direct confrontation the most due to weighted risk/reward will be at a significant advantage over others, and the only thing that makes heavies more note-worthy here is that the length of time they can hold on to their stock while still making the same play over and over again. But heck, we saw this weekend that a good ol fashion Sonic spin dash cancel camping is just as, if not significantly more bull **** then what DK/Bowser can do. [Sheik being able to slow down the pace of a game and continually go for dthrow 50/50s is what we tend to agree upon as what made her most problematic as a character]

Can Smash have defense and offense balanced in such a way so that the continually shifting poster-child for problems aren't always the character's who can rely on defense the most? While at the same time not being "hard core" like Melee? (although once tech barriers are overcome still tends towards extremely defensive play?)
People complain about Diddy's down tilt but for it to combo like it does,it requires to space towards the tip of it, and with away DI doesn't tend to combo into anything at kill percent (not until aerials start killing towards like 180%). Banana is giving strong guaranteed follow ups but limits Diddy's options at the same time too.

I don't mind defensive play, I think defensive play is great, but not when it only comes down to single option reliance at every stage of a game. Brawl despite it's flaws in balance and the 2 frame cool down spot dodges had a rich defensive game that people still love and fondly remember, and the degree at which players were punished for being sloppy with them is almost as extreme as Nairo's ZSS catching you on platforms with bad DI.

Anyway... probably a lot more incoherent a rant than I would hope.

But either way, have no real problems with DK (he doesn't have good oos/frontal options and hence heavily telegraphs his grab), maybe Bowser's risk/reward is a little cheesy but let's wait and see. I have serious issues contemplating what's actually stopping Trela from winning CEO or EVO right now. ZSS, Cloud, Megaman maybe?
Venom vs ZeRo has me doubt Diddy, ZeRo required too many risky reads to get through his shield and Diddy can't out button him without max range aerials - he had to edge guard Ryu to win, that doesn't bode well for Diddy whatsoever. He still probably does better than Sheik, Fox, Mario / every other character we think is good.
Can't discredit Sheik's chances either, Ramin's style is different to VoIDs and that could be able to push Ryu into awkward edge guard situations more often, which seems to be the only way this character can actually die without killing you with safe link into buffered true shoryu first at half or 1/3rd of the percent you've put him to.

 

[teluoborg]

It's why I personally stopped playing Falcon, his neutral ultimately became boring to play with his effortless, low risk dash grab game. ZSS' grab on the other hand is high risk, so you have to condition your opponent to be scared and sit in shield instead of just going for it all the time, then when they get used to it, condition them again.

ZSS mains, ladies and gentlemen. At this point it's becoming a trope.

Trifroze I agree with most of what you say but you can't affirm that Falcon's dash grab is effortless when it relies on a sub par version of MK's dash grab/attack mixup (subpar begause it has higher risks and lower rewards) and then simultaneously compare it to ZSS' grab game who has guaranteed, safe setups and very strong frame traps to land it, coupled to an insane reward.
Youu've played both characters, you should know better.

 

[Megamang]

ZSS has frame traps to grab? I can think of landing traps, but I can't think of any real 'frame traps' with a f16 grab.


Anyways, regarding Shaya's post on Ryu and perhaps Megaman being a stumbling block for him, a huge reason Megaman does well in the MU became apparent for me. With the biggest discrepancy in the game in air acceleration + a multi hit, killing bair, Edgeguarding Ryu is pretty plausible in each game. Then, he abuses Ryu's lack of strong approach options/burst speed with pellets, and if you are sufficiently agile with your pellet game you can convert a pellet string into a nair into a possible ledge situation, the whole 'force him to the ledge or die to shoryuken' thing makes a lot of sense why Mega is particularly adept at this.

Perhaps Pikachu might also be a stumbling block, with a consistent ledgeguard game also based around multi-hitting aerials. But his air mobility is not nearly as good.

Also, maybe a spindash-camping sonic? His confirms hurt, his uair can kill you early at the roof (Wrath really used this to great effect), his grab sets up painful juggle situations again with multihits, and we saw from Wrath that spindash charge is the single most lopsided button in the game.

DK was supposed to be bad, and it makes sense to me on paper... But Lurr's DK got annihilated. I can believe he doesn't know the MU, but that bad? I guess not knowing your Ryu MU can let you lose in seconds.

 

[Charoite]

So he was complaining that the character he uses who is lightweight and is prone to hard punish if he messed up, can be killed in a read by character that especially in inflicting fear and punish you if you messed up, makes sense.

And the problem are not shields, is mobility and the how movement works in smash, moving in smash isn't committal as in other fighting games, example put smash 4 in street fighter IV or V, he would be busted as hell, not because of power or frame data but movement, imagine ryu focus dashing like it was blazblue, in fact the majority of smash character would be busted in other fighting games with her mobility imagine on a close environment you dont like that.

 

[Emblem Lord]

ZSS has frame traps to grab? I can think of landing traps, but I can't think of any real 'frame traps' with a f16 grab.


Anyways, regarding Shaya's post on Ryu and perhaps Megaman being a stumbling block for him, a huge reason Megaman does well in the MU became apparent for me. With the biggest discrepancy in the game in air acceleration + a multi hit, killing bair, Edgeguarding Ryu is pretty plausible in each game. Then, he abuses Ryu's lack of strong approach options/burst speed with pellets, and if you are sufficiently agile with your pellet game you can convert a pellet string into a nair into a possible ledge situation, the whole 'force him to the ledge or die to shoryuken' thing makes a lot of sense why Mega is particularly adept at this.

Perhaps Pikachu might also be a stumbling block, with a consistent ledgeguard game also based around multi-hitting aerials. But his air mobility is not nearly as good.

Also, maybe a spindash-camping sonic? His confirms hurt, his uair can kill you early at the roof (Wrath really used this to great effect), his grab sets up painful juggle situations again with multihits, and we saw from Wrath that spindash charge is the single most lopsided button in the game.

DK was supposed to be bad, and it makes sense to me on paper... But Lurr's DK got annihilated. I can believe he doesn't know the MU, but that bad? I guess not knowing your Ryu MU can let you lose in seconds.

Pika has like...no ACTUAL neutral vs Ryu besides try to run all day and use QAC. Which is not scary at all and Ryu has several buttons that beat it.

idk about Sonic anymore. Hooded recently beat 6wx, showing that a Ryu that is willing to close the gap and not give Sonic THE ENTIRE STAGE to breath makes things way closer. He prolly wins, but very slightly imo.

also.....Ryu is meta now?

No, he is not. Nor will he ever be. Most regions dont even have a strong Ryu.

 

[Megamang]

You know when you think about stuff, and then you see a top player do it, and you're like... damn, I wish I was good.


https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/4lq57w/anti_implementing_perfect_pivots_pp_rolls_into/


I will admit, the rolling aspect out of PP is pretty new and interesting to me. Pls don't learn this Diddy players.

 

[Trifroze]

ZSS mains, ladies and gentlemen. At this point it's becoming a trope.

Trifroze I agree with most of what you say but you can't affirm that Falcon's dash grab is effortless when it relies on a sub par version of MK's dash grab/attack mixup (subpar begause it has higher risks and lower rewards) and then simultaneously compare it to ZSS' grab game who has guaranteed, safe setups and very strong frame traps to land it, coupled to an insane reward.
Youu've played both characters, you should know better.

You should try playing both characters as well. Switching from Falcon to ZSS made burst feel absolutely helpless despite both being high mobility characters. It's the one thing Falcon does leaps better, and you really shouldn't expect anyone experienced with both characters to say otherwise.

Falcon has as many viable setups (falling bair, nair) and mixups (jab 2) into grab as ZSS does, yet Falcon's grab has almost 50% faster startup and less than half the endlag when thrown out raw. Don't underestimate the ways in which 52-62 frames of endlag can be punished compared to 23-28. Their dash grabs also cover roughly the same distance, and if you mention ZSS having additional disjointed range, you also have to bring up the fact that the startup extends to 24 frames as you move towards the tip of the tether. It becomes borderline reactable and a lot easier to miss just because the opponent might have done something that got them out of the way during those extra 8 frames.

MK has nothing to do with the fact that Falcon's dash grab and dash attack are nothing less than amazing. And to be fair, Falcon's dash grab is safer and more rewarding than MK's.

What comes to grab reward between Falcon and ZSS, no. Falcon's reward is just as insane as ZSS'. He doesn't get occasional rage kills off of his, but he gets considerably more damage all the way from 0% until the percents where uair stops connecting. ZSS also gets bad platform DI kills, but if you're going to account for those, I'll go ahead and account for Falcon's dash grab into knee kills at 50% that are a similar result of bad DI.

In the grand scheme of things AFTER PEOPLE HAVE STOPPED DOING THIS, I think they'll be about even in terms of their reward off of grabs. ZSS gets occasional rage jank kills, Falcon gets more consistent damage. Yet, Falcon doesn't get hard punished for whiffing his.

 

[Rizen]

Food for thought: Bowser's frame data is worse than Link's.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Bowser
Bowser however does have better mobility, OoS and less strict grab follow ups.

Make what you will of it :/

 

[Das Koopa]

After Momocon, I really hope the next grassroots major Smash tourney has Georgia in regional crew battles. Wrath, LordMix, TheReflexWonder, Scatt, and Fatality would probably do pretty well. SAme with Canada, instead of making Ally midwest (lol?) make him the head of a team with Holy, Alphicans, Kels, and Venom.

 

[Nobie]

Rich Brown won this week's Mega Smash Monday. I know this doesn't seem like that big of a deal now that we're in a world where Mewtwo is considered very viable, but I think he's been aiming for the Weekly crown for a while.

It's one thing to talk about Abadango, but all of the other Mewtwos seem to be steadily improving (Mew^2, Dekillsage using M2 as well), and this is leading to a greater prominence of diverse Mewtwo play styles.

Mr. Concon also got second. Luigi's one of those characters that were heavily affected by the Mewtwo buffs and it shows in this set. It used to be that even a small mistake from Mewtwo could get easily punished by Luigi but that's not really the case anymore. Once Luigi actually gets in things can get rough for M2, but it has so much mobility now that it's easier said than done.