Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[EnhaloTricks]

Still waiting for the videos of the Tournament where Trela beat Larry.
Any streamlink?

GF's - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nRNaAJjz0k
WF's - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lqapKa-j7E

 

[Emblem Lord]

Still waiting for the videos of the Tournament where Trela beat Larry.
Any streamlink?

Here you go fam, but be warned.

Seeing this will just make you hate Ryu and be sad for Larry.

You don't want to see this. It's really ugly and really stupid.

You have been warned.

 

[PK Gaming]

In my quiet moments, I wonder what Smash would be like if it was all original characters did not hail from disparate series. I think about this because fundamentally I'm a very boring person, but also because it's an interesting thought experiment. If there were no preestablished history for these characters, would the amount of character loyalists significantly dwindle? Would it cut down on the number of people insisting to me that <insert mediocre character of your choice here> is actually totally viable, and we just don't see it yet? Would we see higher rates of top tier character usage? Would people be more ready to agree on who is and isn't viable? I don't know, possibly.

On the other hand, I feel like if there was no/diminished character loyalty, we'd lose more of those electrifing tournament moments when someone takes a low tier character to a packed top 8. Personally, those are some of my favorite Smash tournament moments. Additionally, the dedication that people show to some of the lower tier heroes, either out of love/nostalgia/self hatred, is fascinating. In a weird way, it's one of the things I kind of associate with Smash*.

Ultimately, I think that it would be a wash, either way. We'd lose some of the thing that, to me, make Smash Smash, but perhaps we'd gain others. This got a little rambly and navel-gazey at the end (and the beginning and middle), so I'll just sum it up by saying that Smash is a land of contrasts. Thank you.


*I am very aware that low tier heroes/people sticking with characters that are "bad" is nothing unique to Smash. However, purely going off of gut instinct, I feel like the phenomenon is more common to Smash's tournament life than other competive fighting games.

Heck no

People would just get attached to the "new" characters.

"Like, there's just no way that Anna Zeta is low tier, I won't accept it"

"Yo, did you just see that match? That Anna Zeta player almost beat TTG!!!"

It probably wouldn't be that different

 

[Lavani]

When did Spin Dash get invincibility?

At release.

It's invincible from 1f until the apex of the little hop at the start.

 

[R3D3MON]

lol the salt is real. Jokes aside I thought this thread liked and promoted patient play because just "randomly pressing buttons" is not smart or effective at higher levels of play. Also Megaman might as well be the poster child for patient, projectile-camping, lame gameplay (BS pellets...). I thought Megamang's post was a bit ironic (nothing personal against Megamang, just noting an observation).

Also sakurai, nerfs for ryu, diddy, and mewtwo when? ****ing seriously these characters do not deserve kill confirms (especially diddy, **** that character lol).

 

[Ninety]

Still waiting for the videos of the Tournament where Trela beat Larry.
Any streamlink?

Already uploaded, I think. Here's that match.

 

[BunbUn129]

Still waiting for the videos of the Tournament where Trela beat Larry.
Any streamlink?

https://www.twitch.tv/smashunited/v/69212586

Edit: Ninja'd.

 

[LancerStaff]

Why does this thread periodically end up being steered towards free for all's? Who cares? I can guarantee the guys writing these super long FFA posts that most people are not gonna read them.. if you care or not, not sure but I'm just saying. I can only speak for myself but whenever I spot the phrase FFA in a post I'll probably move to the next post and I bet I'm not the only one

Obviously people read them because everybody has point out how obviously wrong I am and I usually get a bunch of childish insults, lmao. If you guys hate it so much you could stop bringing it up.

 

[TurboLink]

lol the salt is real. Jokes aside I thought this thread liked and promoted patient play because just "randomly pressing buttons" is not smart or effective at higher levels of play. Also Megaman might as well be the poster child for patient, projectile-camping, lame gameplay (BS pellets...). I thought Megamang's post was a bit ironic (nothing personal against Megamang, just noting an observation).

Also sakurai, nerfs for ryu, diddy, and mewtwo when? ****ing seriously these characters do not deserve kill confirms (especially diddy, **** that character lol).

Sorry to tell you but Ryu will always have kill confirms. It's something he brought in with him from Street Fighter. Besides, there's nothing wrong with kill confirms.

At release.

It's invincible from 1f until the apex of the little hop at the start.

Thanks. I didn't see that on Kurogane Hammer.

 

[R3D3MON]

TurboLink

This is smash 4, not street fighter.

 

[Emblem Lord]

TurboLink

This is smash 4, not street fighter.

Bruh break it down for me. please.

Why shouldnt Ryu have kill confirms?

I can only pray this will even be half as amazing as I think it will be.

 

[soniczx123]

Its not that anyone cares about FFA, its that someone cares a lot.


While we're on stupid *** design decisions, why is spindash shield cancellable? Why is it invincible?

I'm just glad Sonic play actively discourages others from playing him. But im baffled at his design choice. They know heavies have to have weaknesses to offset certain things, yet they just throw all that balance to the wind and design the perfect runaway and be lame character. Do whatever it takes to win, but I really hope they gore sonic in s5 and make him unplayable, because he drastically decreases the quality of every game he is in.

So we just screw over his entire playerbase instead of redesigning him?

Sure bro.

 

[Y2Kay]

lol the salt is real. Jokes aside I thought this thread liked and promoted patient play because just "randomly pressing buttons" is not smart or effective at higher levels of play. Also Megaman might as well be the poster child for patient, projectile-camping, lame gameplay (BS pellets...). I thought Megamang's post was a bit ironic (nothing personal against Megamang, just noting an observation).

Also sakurai, nerfs for ryu, diddy, and mewtwo when? ****ing seriously these characters do not deserve kill confirms (especially diddy, **** that character lol).

Are you still whining about Mewtwo's foot stool combos?

Your salt knows no bounds.

 

[Dre89]

So where does everyone think Bayo is post-nerfs

She looks mid to me, but I think about 30 characters are mid

lol the salt is real. Jokes aside I thought this thread liked and promoted patient play because just "randomly pressing buttons" is not smart or effective at higher levels of play. Also Megaman might as well be the poster child for patient, projectile-camping, lame gameplay (BS pellets...). I thought Megamang's post was a bit ironic (nothing personal against Megamang, just noting an observation).

Also sakurai, nerfs for ryu, diddy, and mewtwo when? ****ing seriously these characters do not deserve kill confirms (especially diddy, **** that character lol).

Diddy doesn't kill until about 130% with dtilt-usmash.

You shouldn't really ever die to banana-fsmash by the ledge at 80. You should always chose to avoid that option because he can't kill you any other way at that %.

 

[TDK]

When did you stop paying attention to it?

Right after Corrin and Bayonetta came out, I think.

 

[Yikarur]

Here you go fam, but be warned.

Seeing this will just make you hate Ryu and be sad for Larry.

You don't want to see this. It's really ugly and really stupid.

You have been warned.

I love it so much. Thank you ! @both

 

[R3D3MON]

Because every character that functioned like Ryu has been nerfed heavily in their overall punish game. Biggest example is Luigi. Another example (but less relevant) is Bayo (this is debatable because many of her combo starters did not exactly suffer from range issues). Ryu should not be taking stocks at below 100% from one or two mistakes, even without rage. Also I won't make this into a whole text wall of arguments, but basically my reasoning is the same as Trifroze's argument about why heavy characters like DK and bowser should not have kill confirms that kill extremely early. Although for heavy characters their frame data and lack of a projectile somewhat offsets their ridiculous kill confirms, Ryu has a projectile, super OP up-b and plenty of movement mixups from his down-b, along with the best frame data in the whole game (those tilts and aerials are disgusting). Also beacuse of Ryu's frame data (and easy-access shield-breaking moves from his tilts), he can reliable pressure shields all day so avoiding his tilts for the duration of a whole set is impossible. Furthermore Ryu's kill confirms work for a wide range of %s unlike DK and Bowser's kill confirms.

I have seen all of the pro-Ryu arguments, and they sound awfully similar to what me and other Luigi mains have said regarding Luigi's own punish game. Regardless Luigi's punish game was patched out, and similarly Ryu should have his punish game patched out should rely on reads for his kills instead of dumb "insert light tilt/jab" > true shoryu or dair.

The only other arguments from pro-Ryu people have been that his inputs are hard to do, but the best Trela has stated that this really isn't the case (look for his "inspiring" post a few pages back). Also unless Ryu's technical barrier is in a similar level to melee multi-shines and wave-shine confirms, I do not see this "technical barrier" argument holding ground. Furthermore pro-Ryu people state that Ryu's aerial mobility limits his ability to use his punish game, but this did not stop Luigi from getting nerfed as well.

Hope I have made my case clear. BTW I do not explicitly think Ryu as a character is OP but that his confirms are and should be toned down or removed so that he requires smart mindgames from Focus attack and smashes for kills, just like most of the other characters in this game's roster.

Dre89

The issue with Diddy is not the fact that he kills early (although he still can kill light fastfallers very early with a bit of rage and staled d-throw/u-throw into up-air), but the fact that he has a consistent kill setup that is hard to DI properly due to his mobility and how quick d-tilt comes out (frame 4) Also at higher % he has a stock cap kill throw and aerials like fair or bair to confirm from d-tilt (bair in particularly scales very well with rage due to its KB growth). This is also compounded by his abusive neutral game and his banana, which wrecks low-mid and sometimes high level players. Kill confirms that work for a variety of % range have all been toned down or removed from the game, so considering Diddy's neutral and his overall very powerful and versatile moveset diddy really should not have the kill confirms that he does atm.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Right after Corrin and Bayonetta came out, I think.

Well.......... that's gonna he hard to come back from

A few stuff though:

• , , and nerfed
• Is now top 15 and potentially top 10 because Abadango won Pound using almsot solo Mewtwo. Nairo and Dabuz got upset before top 8 in that same tourney
  
• is MUCH better because Kamemushi is dominating japan and being the only consistant player.
  
• is being majorly overhyped and overrated because Pugwest and Mr E are getting results.
  
• Is now bottom 15 and most think he is bottom 10

Along with a TON more

 

[Dre89]

Because every character that functioned like Ryu has been nerfed heavily in their overall punish game. Biggest example is Luigi. Another example (but less relevant) is Bayo (this is debatable because many of her combo starters did not exactly suffer from range issues). Ryu should not be taking stocks at below 100% from one or two mistakes, even without rage. Also I won't make this into a whole text wall of arguments, but basically my reasoning is the same as Trifroze's argument about why heavy characters like DK and bowser should not have kill confirms that kill extremely early. Although for heavy characters their frame data and lack of a projectile somewhat offsets their ridiculous kill confirms, Ryu has a projectile, super OP up-b and plenty of movement mixups from his down-b, along with the best frame data in the whole game (those tilts and aerials are disgusting). Also beacuse of Ryu's frame data (and easy-access shield-breaking moves from his tilts), he can reliable pressure shields all day so avoiding his tilts for the duration of a whole set is impossible. Furthermore Ryu's kill confirms work for a wide range of %s unlike DK and Bowser's kill confirms.

I have seen all of the pro-Ryu arguments, and they sound awfully similar to what me and other Luigi mains have said regarding Luigi's own punish game. Regardless Luigi's punish game was patched out, and similarly Ryu should have his punish game patched out should rely on reads for his kills instead of dumb "insert light tilt/jab" > true shoryu or dair.

The only other arguments from pro-Ryu people have been that his inputs are hard to do, but the best Trela has stated that this really isn't the case (look for his "inspiring" post a few pages back). Also unless Ryu's technical barrier is in a similar level to melee multi-shines and wave-shine confirms, I do not see this "technical barrier" argument holding ground. Furthermore pro-Ryu people state that Ryu's aerial mobility limits his ability to use his punish game, but this did not stop Luigi from getting nerfed as well.

Hope I have made my case clear. BTW I do not explicitly think Ryu as a character is OP but that his confirms are and should be toned down or removed so that he requires smart mindgames from Focus attack and smashes for kills, just like most of the other characters in this game's roster.

Dre89

The issue with Diddy is not the fact that he kills early (although he still can kill light fastfallers very early with a bit of rage and staled d-throw/u-throw into up-air), but the fact that he has a consistent kill setup that is hard to DI properly due to his mobility and how quick d-tilt comes out (frame 4) Also at higher % he has a stock cap kill throw and aerials like fair or bair to confirm from d-tilt (bair in particularly scales very well with rage due to its KB growth). This is also compounded by his abusive neutral game and his banana, which wrecks low-mid and sometimes high level players. Kill confirms that work for a variety of % range have all been toned down or removed from the game, so considering Diddy's neutral and his overall very powerful and versatile moveset diddy really should not have the kill confirms that he does atm.

No one is denying Diddy is a good character. But the fact that on average he shouldn't be killing until 130 makes it ok for him to have a good neutral.

Banana is obviously great but not as oppressive as a lot of people make it out to be. It loses to hitboxes, which means you can simultaneously space or agress on Diddy whilst defending yourself against the nana. Obviously Diddy can mix it up but it's not like you're instantly restricted to just sitting in shield when he pulls one.

 

[Y2Kay]

Ryu's confirms are NOT the same as either bayo's or Luigi's

Getting the grab with Luigi is relatively easily with fire ball, and bayo's death combos an kill you much earlier than Ryu's.

I guess this game can't have any powerful characters.

 

[R3D3MON]

Dre89

But the mixup potential from banana is just too good. Also this ignores the rest of his moveset, like bair/fair shield pressure, d-tilt, and side-b. Also his damage racking game is top-tier material. Combined with an abusive neutral, he has very easy ways to force his gameplan on others and quickly get kills by constant pressure that many players often cannot deal with properly. Adding a kill confirm to this mix does not sound very balanced to me.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Well.......... that's gonna he hard to come back from

A few stuff though:

• , , and nerfed
• Is now top 15 and potentially top 10 because Abadango won Pound using almsot solo Mewtwo. Nairo and Dabuz got upset before top 8 in that same tourney
  
• is somewhat better because Kamemushi is dominating japan and being the only consistant player.
  
• is being properly hyped and rated because Pugwest and Mr E are getting results among various others
  
• Is now bottom 15 and most think he is bottom 10
• is slowly being recognized as the mid tier counter pick character they are

Along with a TON more

Fixed that up for ya.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Fixed that up for ya.

If Marth was properly hyped, people woudn't be saying he's top 30 even though everything suggests otherwise.

Also while I agree with the Corrin thing, he was asking for stuff right after they were released, so he wouldn't have heard much about Corrin's viability.

 

[L9999]

Are you still whining about Mewtwo's foot stool combos?

Your salt knows no bounds.

Are people STILL complaining about that? Man, I miss broken Sheik so much, people complained about the truly broken things instead of complaining about freaking .

Dre89

But the mixup potential from banana is just too good. Also this ignores the rest of his moveset, like bair/fair shield pressure, d-tilt, and side-b. Also his damage racking game is top-tier material. Combined with an abusive material, he has very easy ways to force his gameplan on others and quickly get kills by constant pressure that many players often cannot deal with properly. Adding a kill confirm to this mix does not sound very balanced to me.

What to expect, is top tier. God forbid this game have characters that are strong. Be grateful he doesn't have double banana, Brawl banana, or Hoo-hah. Diddy cannot suck by design, period.

 

[TurboLink]

along with the best frame data in the whole game (those tilts and aerials are disgusting).

Ryu having the best frame data in the whole game? Better than characters like Sheik, Luigi, Zero Suit Samus, Mario, Diddy Kong, Fox, and whoever else? All of those characters? I need to see some kind of evidence to back that up. Or is that an exaggeration?

I have seen all of the pro-Ryu arguments, and they sound awfully similar to what me and other Luigi mains have said regarding Luigi's own punish game. Regardless Luigi's punish game was patched out, and similarly Ryu should have his punish game patched out should rely on reads for his kills instead of dumb "insert light tilt/jab" > true shoryu or dair.

The only problem with Luigi's past punish game was that his grab reward/game was so good that his game plan centered around it. He could've easily kept his kill confirm if they had toned down his grab combos at lower percents.

Also, Ryu, Diddy Kong, and Mewtwo are not the only characters with kill confirms. Link, Toon Link, Bowser, and Donkey Kong have them as well.

 

[TDK]

Well.......... that's gonna he hard to come back from

A few stuff though:

• , , and nerfed
• Is now top 15 and potentially top 10 because Abadango won Pound using almsot solo Mewtwo. Nairo and Dabuz got upset before top 8 in that same tourney
  
• is MUCH better because Kamemushi is dominating japan and being the only consistant player.
  
• is being majorly overhyped and overrated because Pugwest and Mr E are getting results.
  
• Is now bottom 15 and most think he is bottom 10

Along with a TON more

Fixed that up for ya.

Huh, thanks. Last I checked, Bayo and Corrin weren't even ranked. Did Abadango really win pound with Solo Mewtwo? I guess I'll have to look that up.

One more question: Based on what I've heard, is Rosalina the best character?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Huh, thanks. Last I checked, Bayo and Corrin weren't even ranked. Did Abadango really win pound with Solo Mewtwo? I guess I'll have to look that up.

One more question: Based on what I've heard, is Rosalina the best character?

No, she's 4-6. Top 3 is clearly and

 

[Illuminose]

I feel like the vast majority of people who watch Sonic and complain just don't get it. I mean yeah, it is optimal for Sonic to play lame depending on mu/what have you. But it's not an anti-competitive scenario where you're fighting it and just don't have options. The thing Sonic does really well is frustrate people by punishing bad habits because spin dash tends to eat those apart...bad rolls, bad spot dodges, bad jumps, all these things that maybe don't get exposed in other matchups are taken advantage of by Sonic. The character is not flawed by design, in fact his play centers around the type of neutral mindgames and scenarios that people claim to like. The endless vitriol Sonic players get for a character that many seem to think is easy for whatever reason is pretty unnecessary. Maybe it's not "easy on the eyes", but that's no excuse for the type of behavior recently with Sonic players.
--
To touch on Ryu from R3D3MON 's post...Ryu's confirms are balanced out by the fact that his neutral isn't all that great. Low air mobility and limited dash options (although his dash grab is pretty good) mean that Ryu often has to work pretty hard to get stuff going. This is very matchup-dependent, but there are definitely characters that can make neutral difficult for Ryu and play consistent to beat him unless he is getting good reads on his opponent's options. Some characters that come to mind: Mega Man, Villager, Toon Link, Diddy Kong, Rosa, Sheik, Cloud, Yoshi, Pac Man...I'm not actually saying necessarily that all of these characters beat Ryu (though most do), but the point is that Ryu does not have a top neutral like say Sheik or Diddy Kong or Cloud. He actually probably has one of the weakest overall neutrals for a top tier character. This is where the character is balanced out.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Huh, thanks. Last I checked, Bayo and Corrin weren't even ranked. Did Abadango really win pound with Solo Mewtwo? I guess I'll have to look that up.

One more question: Based on what I've heard, is Rosalina the best character?

Losing to MK/Cloud and even losing MUs to random high midtiers like Falcon and Pikachu, along with Dabuz being the only top level rep for her, I don't think she is. While it isn't unfeasible to have the best character have losing MUs, her results are lacking to be the best.

EDIT: Can we talk about spot dodging and SHAD and how underutilized they are as a defensive option? I almost always see it for an approach, moves like Bfish/ greninja dair,/ ZSS flipkick/ Bayo divekick/etc. are not challenged enough and they almost always get away scot-free.

What other moves are beaten by spotdodge or SHAD?

 

[R3D3MON]

L9999

Good design doesn't mean a character is OP. Most of the top tiers today have very few/unreliable kill confirms and often have to make smart guesses to get kills (i.e. sheik). Even ZSS requires a good read or two for her ladder combo to actually kill because of the nerf on her d-throw, nair, and up-b's KB.

TurboLink

All the evidence is in KuroganeHammer.com. Like I said just looking at his tilts and aerials he might as well have the best frame data, along with many of his aerials having gigantic hitboxes.

Also it seems rather clear to me that Ryu also has an over-centralized gameplan with his kill confirms. Trela often plays a deficit and then requires very few setups to go from 0-80 % and then a guranteed kill confirm from true shoryu or dair. And regardless of whether or not he has an over-centralized gameplan, his kill confirms are way too effective and have a big range where they work. This should be patched out, just like it was for other characters.

Also Ryu's neutral does not seem below average to me. He has a multi-hit projectile to force approaches or to approach himself and mixups from down-b and very very dangerous CQC abilities with very good shield pressure tools. He loses to zoners, but this was the same case for Luigi and it didn't stop the character from being nerfed.

From a balance standpoint it makes complete sense to nerf Ryu, Diddy, and Mewtwo because some of their tools are currently overtuned and stands out from the rest of the top tier/high tier cast.

 

[TDK]

Fun Fact: Ryu cannot reach the bottom platforms of Dream Land (64) with a single full hop.

 

[Gawain]

Well.......... that's gonna he hard to come back from

A few stuff though:

• , , and nerfed
• Is now top 15 and potentially top 10 because Abadango won Pound using almsot solo Mewtwo. Nairo and Dabuz got upset before top 8 in that same tourney
  
• is MUCH better because Kamemushi is dominating japan and being the only consistant player.
  
• is being majorly overhyped and overrated because Pugwest and Mr E are getting results.
  
• Is now bottom 15 and most think he is bottom 10

Along with a TON more

This post is hilarious. So Aba's M2 results mean M2 is top 15 but Marths are "overrated"? Same thing with your mega man and Roy statements. This community is a bunch of bandwagoning hiveminders.

 

[TurboLink]

Even ZSS requires a good read or two for her ladder combo to actually kill because of the nerf on her d-throw, nair, and up-b's KB.

Zero Suit Samus doesn't have kill confirms?!

Doesn't her neutral special combo into forward smash/up special depending on how long you charge it?

Also, doesn't down smash still combo into down special and possibly other moves?

 

[Aaron1997]

TDK Some more things.

• ZeRo loses his 2nd tourney losing to Ally
• Is Picking up steam because of Istudying
• Is falling down the Tier list because the only top level Rep ESAM is not doing that great for player of his caliber.
• Is finally starting to get Results.
• Is not doing as well because Ranai is not been going to stuff.
• LordMix beating Void and Vinnie and going last stock game 5 vs Ally

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yall just determined to remove all kill confirms even though Ryu becomes mid tier at best without them.

smh.

 

[L9999]

TDK

MK Leo played outside Mexico for the first time, got 5th, beating Nairo and took ZeRo to game 5, but lost. He got wrecked by Ally.
has turned into a meme.
had good performances.
has been on the rise, courtesy of Taheita placing well in Jp tournaments.
Disappeared after Genesis 3 and finally did something in a long time.
got a lot of hype and they aren't around much this days.
is on life support, carried by his lesser known players.
still not buffed.
is finally getting respect after Trela beated up everyone at Pink Fresh saga.

 

[R3D3MON]

Zero Suit Samus doesn't have kill confirms?!

Doesn't her neutral special combo into forward smash/up special depending on how long you charge it?

Also, doesn't down smash still combo into down special and possibly other moves?

You can look at the changes done on ZSS for the 1.1.5 patch notes, but I'll try to summarize the changes as best as I can regarding ZSS's punish game:
Her setup into the ladder combo was nerfed (her d-throw was Luigi-ed and up air has less damage but more KB growth). So nowadays she relies more on platform pressure and airdodge reads with her up air (which was also nerfed) instead of a guaranteed setup from d-throw for early kills and also players messing up proper DI for boostkick, which was also nerfed in power so it kills later. Her setups from nair still works, but the % ranges are tighter and overall less reliable due to the nerfs on ZSS nair's damage, KB growth, base KB, and decreases in both her normal and late hitboxes (they were shrunken in size). Overall a lot of her combo moves/setup moves were nerfed in power and utility to tone down her punish game. I'm sure Trifroze can elaborate more on this matter.


Emblem Lord

Luigi mains now have to deal with being a mid tier, but everybody tells us to shut-up and just be happy. Same goes for Ryu because there really is no reason why Ryu should get special treatment from daddy Sakurai.

 

[Nu~]

Gawain
Can you please explain your thoughts on Roy? I wasn't around the first time you talked about him, but I think it would do a lot more help than harm if you just explained why people are wrong about him being weak.

Arguments such as "he is weak offstage", "can't touch a shield safely outside of Nair", and "is under-rewarded" make sense to me

 

[Emblem Lord]

You can look at the changes done on ZSS for the 1.1.5 patch notes, but I'll try to summarize the changes as best as I can regarding ZSS's punish game:
Her setup into the ladder combo was nerfed (her d-throw was Luigi-ed and up air has less damage but more KB growth). So nowadays she relies more on platform pressure and airdodge reads with her up air (which was also nerfed) instead of a guaranteed setup from d-throw for early kills and also players messing up proper DI for boostkick, which was also nerfed in power so it kills later. Her setups from nair still works, but the % ranges are tighter and overall less reliable due to the nerfs on ZSS nair's damage, KB growth, base KB, and decreases in both her normal and late hitboxes (they were shrunken in size). Overall a lot of her combo moves/setup moves were nerfed in power and utility to tone down her punish game. I'm sure Trifroze can elaborate more on this matter.


Emblem Lord

Luigi mains now have to deal with being a mid tier, but everybody tells us to shut-up and just be happy. Same goes for Ryu because there really is no reason why Ryu should get special treatment from daddy Sakurai.

Thing is though, and really think about it because this is huge.

Ryu's confirms are not grab confirms.

Anyone wanna break down why this is SUPER relevant to how the game is played at high level and what that means for his interactions with other characters specifically how it does or actually DOES NOT improve his burst options?

 

[FallofBrawl]

Some people try to make assumptions and "analysis" by just looking at results posted here, patch notes, and some reddit videos. A lot of people don't watch full tourneys to see the character's true strengths and weaknesses and that's really sad.