Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[meticulousboy]

Thank god for Shaya, I swear I was about to lose it. I'm certain that a vast majority of the users in this thread lack a lot of knowledge about Ryu. Once anyone fights a high level Ryu, then they will begin to understand the problems with him.

Anyone who thinks he has a bad neutral is simply insane. Look at his frame data. Look at his hitboxes. He has a button for anything you can do to him. Do he have one overpowered option that can stuff out everything? No. But he does have tools for every situation, and those tools are often really good.

A lot of people here love to point out his low air mobility, then conveniently forget that he has an ARMORED air dash to shift him momentum. You can't just dance around him in the air, as he has the mobility to catch you and his aerials have absurd hitboxes.

Shoryuken is quite possibly the move overtuned move in the game (even if you disagree with it being the best, you know it's up there). Frames 1-6 invincibility, 18% damage, 18 frames of landing lag, a generous hitbox, and has frame 2/3 confirms into it. This move straight up kills you at 70-80% WITHOUT rage. When Ryu has rage (which he will because he is heavy and has a really good recovery), you can die at absurd percents. I saw a Falcon die at 50% from a max rage Shoryu on T&C. That is simply not ok.

Also, no one can look at the up tilt lock and think that's it's ok. Of all the things about Ryu, that is the most absurd. A frame 3 moves with no cooldown and more range than you think (it also hits behind him) that just destroy's fast fallers. I don't really care if anything else gets changed about Ryu, this crap needs to go.

This is coming from a guy who mains Cloud and Sheik. I'm very aware of how powerful my characters are and the jank they have (Limit Cross Slash is unforgivable). I just don't understand why Ryu is commonly excused from the grief that other top tiers receive. Sure, you can argue his MU spread isn't completely dominant, and trust me, I know there is counterplay to him. But playing against a character who gets the reward of a super heavy without any of the disadvantages is unreasonable.

Excuse me, sir. You do know that Town & City has the lowest ceiling of all the legal stages, right? I would love to see this same situation play out on Smashville. What percent would C. Falcon die at from that?

 

[Emblem Lord]

When Ryu gets nuked to hell by Nnintendo everyone in the smash community will once again be crying foul at Nintendo. Telling them it was too much and how Ryu didnt deserve such harsh nerfs, no different then Greninja or Bayonetta.

Disgusting.

 

[Gawain]

Isn't it you who's looking at things in a vacuum?
Have a confirm into grab, just like you have confirms into all of your aerials bar fair/dair?

Where I'm arguing from beyond that, is how there is no variance of those proceeding options that lead into grab. They're safe, but so is Link throwing a bomb at you from half a stage away. Positional and set up requirements exist, they all require jumping and landing or charge timing.

Oh and your character is -2 on landing with up air and can be up to -1 on AC bair.
Let's just throw out some numbers~

The fact is that a 16 frame grab is not something that stays guaranteed for long on that -4 move you infer, and that the counter play to all those moves you listed that lead into said grab are quite significant.
But I'm the one looking at things in a vacuum... kk.
I love buzzwords.

Ninja'd by the tribroze.

You're just memeing if you're talking about Falcons bair consistently being -1 on autocancel. Maybe against a really tall character.

Falling up air is up to -1.Falling bair is -2.

 

[R3D3MON]

meticulousboy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz4W5xPw2Kc Also this: http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-stage-blastzone-data.408643/#post-21121559 (more people should check this out, thank you Ulevo)

Emblem Lord

More likely that we will see more people being optimistic about all the "new" things Ryu can do after the nerf because somehow nerfs give more options rather than less options, lol. Shoutouts to many people in this thread and elsewhere in the Smash 4 community ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Emblem Lord]

meticulousboy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz4W5xPw2Kc Also this: http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-stage-blastzone-data.408643/#post-21121559 (more people should check this out, thank you Ulevo)

Emblem Lord

More likely that we will see more people being optimistic about all the "new" things Ryu can do after the nerf because somehow nerfs give more options rather than less options, lol. Shoutouts to many people in this thread and elsewhere in the Smash 4 community ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I know you are being playful, but when Diddy got nerfed it forced players to explore other options.

Ryu players are all ALREADY pushing him hard and coming up with new stuff and tactics. So its not like Ryu players are lazy and rely on a crutch.

 

[PK Gaming]

Shaya, the inspirational guy.

Kill confirms are perfectly fine.
When they come from grabs it's dangerous.

I have less issue with Ryu's kill confirms and more so how early they kill. I also think that a 1.8x hit lag modifier benefits the Ryu player more than the opponent for reactively getting confirms and a bit of an SDI modifier on some of the tilts [or everything?] would be appropriate (better this than say, making the moves have more end lag either naturally or through some sort of SF-esque mechanic). Would it make Ryu worthless if double dtilting someone may give the opponent enough time to move up and away to avoid sweetspot shoryu? Probably not (heck, that may not be possible anyway, I'm not sure how large the hitbox of Shoryu is, wouldn't be surprised if it's xbox-huge).

When kill confirms come from attacks, there's usually a lot more DI, spacing and timing variance available - from grabs they tend to just be "your life is over". Ryu's confirms kinda dodge this by having no knockback, which is maybe a problem but that's how his kit works.

But hey, if anything, people recognising Ryu exists and is an extremely scary threat with looming "biggest tournaments of the year" on the horizon was a lot of my intention of that original post.

There's no way I'm not going to be studying Trela and other Ryus to the point where the match up and possible counter strategies exist; it's good for the game and for Trela too - he has faith in his main and is wanting to prove it. I have vested interest in not seeing it go so easily for him. My eye's are on him for a reason.

The good thing is, is that it's going to take most people at least 2-3 months before they can even walk as Ryu, the meta shifting towards him is very very unlikely in the short term no matter what happens over the season.

WELCOME TO THE SUMMER OF SMASH
... part 2

Also wild Xyro appeared? That's more hype than 95% of the inhabitants of this thread could possibly comprehend.
Shout outs to the oldgens <3

Did you just casually drop Bloody Stream and have it make complete sense within the context of your post?

Spoiler

Seriously, the Smash meta is Battle Tendency atm. Everyone's reaching out for that #1 position...

 

[Megamang]

Of course every neutral situation has counterplay. The thing with ZSS, is a ton of it overlaps. She is very prone to shielding on reaction, and if you try for a powershield often and have good timing you can make her regret it.


I think more ground game needs to be implemented, but I'm far from a ZSS expert. It is pathetically low reward when you compare it to SH ZSS, but utilt is legitimately a great button. But, it is really high risk.

 

[Shaya]

Thank god for Shaya, I swear I was about to lose it. I'm certain that a vast majority of the users in this thread lack a lot of knowledge about Ryu. Once anyone fights a high level Ryu, then they will begin to understand the problems with him.

Anyone who thinks he has a bad neutral is simply insane. Look at his frame data. Look at his hitboxes. He has a button for anything you can do to him. Do he have one overpowered option that can stuff out everything? No. But he does have tools for every situation, and those tools are often really good.

A lot of people here love to point out his low air mobility, then conveniently forget that he has an ARMORED air dash to shift him momentum. You can't just dance around him in the air, as he has the mobility to catch you and his aerials have absurd hitboxes.

Shoryuken is quite possibly the move overtuned move in the game (even if you disagree with it being the best, you know it's up there). Frames 1-6 invincibility, 18% damage, 18 frames of landing lag, a generous hitbox, and has frame 2/3 confirms into it. This move straight up kills you at 70-80% WITHOUT rage. When Ryu has rage (which he will because he is heavy and has a really good recovery), you can die at absurd percents. I saw a Falcon die at 50% from a max rage Shoryu on T&C. That is simply not ok.

Also, no one can look at the up tilt lock and think that's it's ok. Of all the things about Ryu, that is the most absurd. A frame 3 moves with no cooldown and more range than you think (it also hits behind him) that just destroy's fast fallers. I don't really care if anything else gets changed about Ryu, this crap needs to go.

This is coming from a guy who mains Cloud and Sheik. I'm very aware of how powerful my characters are and the jank they have (Limit Cross Slash is unforgivable). I just don't understand why Ryu is commonly excused from the grief that other top tiers receive. Sure, you can argue his MU spread isn't completely dominant, and trust me, I know there is counterplay to him. But playing against a character who gets the reward of a super heavy without any of the disadvantages is unreasonable.

I appreciate the compliment, but let's chill a bit here.
He's solid and competent like most characters should want to be, there's just two major skewed areas that you pointed out. His hitboxes are kinda obnoxious to me too, it does give him inherent advantages against a lot of characters for "free" but it's also what's likely propping him up at lower levels of play from being a complete push over, stuff like that is common in Smash. To me that's the part that makes him unique to fight against, "smash's freedom of movement (and spacing) vs moves designed to always hit in the right position"

But it's not a scenario of him being inherently "broken" (assuming we feel Bayonetta was), just very gross overtuning and a tad bit of oversight. The super heavy reward without the typical disadvantages could be an argument as such though, but I have years of experiencing Snake to compare to.

You're just memeing if you're talking about Falcons bair consistently being -1 on autocancel. Maybe against a really tall character.

Falling up air is up to -1.Falling bair is -2.

My spreadsheets have his up air as -2, but the 1 off number scenarios are quite common in frame data interpretations.
And I didn't say consistently, the point of throwing out numbers like that was something that must've gone over your head.
Unless I'm mistaken though, the elbow/arm comes out and stays out, it having such a low AC possibility is not like Cloud's nair, so it achieving such safety is more about your (and their) spacing and landing timings.
Edit: Mild misunderstanding, but hitting with such a late hitbox and immediately landing may not be reliable on certain height of characters. The AC window starts 4 frames after the hitbox ends.

Would that be his staple shff ac? Probably not. But I do aim/time for sour spot ACs on his bair, personally, which are -4 at worst.

 

[meticulousboy]

meticulousboy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz4W5xPw2Kc Also this: http://smashboards.com/threads/wii-u-stage-blastzone-data.408643/#post-21121559 (more people should check this out, thank you Ulevo)

Emblem Lord

More likely that we will see more people being optimistic about all the "new" things Ryu can do after the nerf because somehow nerfs give more options rather than less options, lol. Shoutouts to many people in this thread and elsewhere in the Smash 4 community ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I already saw that thread. Thank you. BTW, I wasn't including stages that transform when I said "lowest ceiling."

 

[R3D3MON]

Emblem Lord

It's probably should have happened naturally as the meta progressed, not because of a patch. However Diddy is a pretty special case because basically every aspect of him initially was really borked one way or another. The amount of kill power that he had from grabs did not make sense for someone with that strong of a neutral and mobility along with very useful specials.

BTW sorry if I made it sound like Ryu players are lazy, I know how hard people like Hooded and False work on developing the character's meta (I should know because False developed so much new combo options from utilizing PP from luigi's d-throw pre-nerf). I was just making fun of the fact that some people in this thread and elsewhere think nerfing is a buff to the character's overall potential because it opens "new" options...somehow. This is often times followed up by terribly made For Glory montages of players doing unsafe mixups or combos that already existed prior to the nerf and calling it "new". For instance, check out some of the posts made right after MK nerfs in this MK boards thread (especially page 3): http://smashboards.com/threads/patch-1-1-5-lets-discuss-the-new-mk.433182/page-3

EDIT: meticulousboy Oh sorry about that. Stages like Delfino Plaza is there because the thread is kinda old, but I'm pretty sure none of the tourney-legal stages have changed much from the patches (someone can correct me on this).

 

[meticulousboy]

People. Just think of Ryu as...Ike without Ragnell. Ryu and Ike are strong hitters, are they not?

 

[Amadeus9]

People. Just think of Ryu as...Ike without Ragnell. Ryu and Ike are strong hitters, are they not?

Why on earth would you think of Ryu that way. That makes no sense. The two characters are nothing alike.

 

[TurboLink]

People. Just think of Ryu as...Ike without Ragnell. Ryu and Ike are strong hitters, are they not?

Just think of Ryu as a heavyweight, because that's what he is. I guess people just aren't used to a heavyweight that doesn't have sub-par/trash frame data.

 

[ARGHETH]

People. Just think of Ryu as...Ike without Ragnell. Ryu and Ike are strong hitters, are they not?

Uhh...
Ike without Ragnell isn't Ike.

 

[meticulousboy]

Why on earth would you think of Ryu that way. That makes no sense. The two characters are nothing alike.

They are so centered on crazy reads.

 

[Mario766]

I wish Ike could KO people quicker without ragnell than with ragnell.

That swords REALLY holding him back guys.

 

[Megamang]

I think in a game where players aren't reading eachother at all, Ryu is going to win. You can start doing pivot actions to prevent his aerial approaches, then he starts chasing further to get the reads... etc etc. Ryu having huge reward for a successful read shouldn't be interpreted as him relying on reads. Same with Ike being so powerful with his grab and spacing game, though you could argue he needs to hard read in certain MUs to even return to the stage.

 

[ARGHETH]

They are so centered on crazy reads.

TIL confirms into aerials are considered "crazy reads".

 

[Megamang]

I know i was a big participant in this and am probably therefor a hypocrite for saying this, but can we be done with the complaining and start talking substance? I really really liked Baby_sneak suggesting match analysis. MUs to watch for this summer would also be great.


I'd love to see who can take the new super Trela. I wanna see Megaman vs Trela, be it Scatt or Kamemushi, to see how he copes with a solid zoning character. Him beating Larry really makes me realize how much he has evolved.

 

[Illuminose]

I would say that zss is risky in a few ways, probably the biggest being her ground options. most things ZSS can do in close quarters scenarios are unsafe. if she's in shield she basically just has up b oos, jab oos, utilt oos all of which are highly punishable options on whiff or shield. even normal cqc situations -- both jab and ftilt are unsafe. her burst options out of dash are both high commitment (laggy dash grab and laggy/unsafe) dash attack. the only thing that ZSS has on the ground that she doesn't really have to commit to is dsmash. as for her aerials, she is generally vulnerable for the first half of her jump bc she pretty much doesn't have rising aerials and thus doing basic spacing nairs/bairs can be risky -- your opponent can just run under you and anti-air (up smashes usually do this effectively) or air-air with an immediate sh aerial. predictable timing also makes the aerials relatively easy to powershield, which good players can and will do to get punishes on zss's 'safe' aerials. as a result of all these things, zss is more committal and risky in neutral than pretty much every other character around her caliber, thus the moniker of 'one of the worst top tier neutrals'.

also ryu's neutral can definitely be read and adaptation reliant; he doesn't really have any particular option or two for all matchups and scenarios that you can just get into your opponent's range with easily/safely. all I have to say on that topic.

 

[Y2Kay]

OK R3D3MON I'm just going to call out your argument.

It seems like the nerfs you ask for have nothing to do with actually making the meta healthier, but more has to do with this agenda you have to make sure no other characters can have kill confirms since Luigi had his taken away.

You keep using this loaded language, such as describing Mewtwo's neutral as "oppresive", even though that isn't true considering he has weaknesses in the neutral state such as poor CQC options.

The way you tell it, you make it sound like people are helplessly falling into Ryu's light up tilt and dying at 60 to true shoryuken. But you conveniently leave out how Ryu players have to work to get their opponents into a position to even land the confirm.

And Banana confirms do not kill people super early, they just kill consistently. that's a big difference.

You don't seem to even understand the characters you complain about, which leads me to believe what you actually are trying to say is "If Luigi can't have kill confirms, than NOBODY can."

And that's petty and lame. Just sayin' . . .

 

[R3D3MON]

@Mew -2Chainz

You might want to read what about said about Diddy a few pages back. I never said that his problem was killing early. In fact the biggest problem is that he has an easy-bake kill confirm that is consistent coming from a character that has an oppressive neutral. You might want to maybe actually read before making blind personal attacks...

 

[Y2Kay]

@Mew -2Chainz

You might want to read what about said about Diddy a few pages back. I never said that his problem was killing early. In fact the biggest problem is that he has an easy-bake kill confirm that is consistent coming from a character that has an oppressive neutral. You might want to maybe actually read before making blind personal attacks...

How is this a blind personal attack? No need to get all up in your feelings.

***** please, I know how to read. You nitpicked that one piece of my entire argument so you could make some lame insult to my intelligence. But you have no response to all the other points I made? That's what I thought.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

@Mew -2Chainz

You might want to read what about said about Diddy a few pages back. I never said that his problem was killing early. In fact the biggest problem is that he has an easy-bake kill confirm that is consistent coming from a character that has an oppressive neutral. You might want to maybe actually read before making blind personal attacks...

So if you have a good neutral, you can't have kill confirms?

Sounds like you want everyone in this game to be Sheik. There's a lot more to a character than their neutral and their safety landing kills.

 

[R3D3MON]

Shady Shaymin

Well that is what people seem to want. All the nerfs have been towards toning down punish games for various top tiers. And if you have a great neutral it really should not be a problem to set up someone through conditioning to get kills since you have all the tools in the neutral set it up. Am I wrong about this?

EDIT: To put this into perspective, imagine if Bowser and DK had great neutral tools and options including a projectile like a banana or shadow ball. Would you be fine with letting DK and Bowser still keeping their kill confirms?

Of course, the difference between the kill confirms from the heavies is that it is one of their best comeback factors and the % range for their kill confirms is rather tight (esp. for DK). But putting that aside, would you be fine with these characters having great mobility and neutral and also having a consistent kill confirm?

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Shady Shaymin

Well that is what people seem to want. All the nerfs have been towards toning down punish games for various top tiers. And if you have a great neutral it really should not be a problem to set up someone through conditioning to get kills since you have all the tools in the neutral set it up. Am I wrong about this?

Diddy's punish game is nowhere near what pre-patch Luigi, ZSS, or MK's punishes were. There is no reason to compare the current iteration of Diddy to those previous balance choices.

 

[R3D3MON]

Diddy's punish game is nowhere near what pre-patch Luigi, ZSS, or MK's punishes were. There is no reason to compare the current iteration of Diddy to those previous balance choices.

Many would disagree. Also, look at sheik after the nerfs. She is still a very popular pick precisely because she is neutral-dominating character. Like I said before in this thread, the real "OP" characters always end up being the ones with most dominant neutral. The fact that Diddy also has various working kill confirms seems rather ridiculous to me on top of his neutral tools.

 

[ARISTOS]

Anyone who thinks he has a bad neutral is simply insane. Look at his frame data. Look at his hitboxes. He has a button for anything you can do to him. Do he have one overpowered option that can stuff out everything? No. But he does have tools for every situation, and those tools are often really good.

I'm nitpicking.

This, IMO, is an example of a well designed character. Characters SHOULD have answers, in some way, to what is being thrown at them. When characters don't have good options to respond to the opponent's buttons, what you end up with is a weak character. On the other hand, if a character ends up having one button that dominates proceedings, you have a broken move. Smash has tended too far towards both ends of the spectrum, so I'm glad to see a character like Ryu with simultaneously strong buttons while at the same time not having any straight go-to options.

Shoryu stuff is spot on though

 

[DblCrest]

a single attack that it's beatable by most jabs or projectiles. Is blockable and leaves Sonic wide open for a counter attack.

Was waiting for someone to actually point out what counterplay there was so there was less complaining honestly. Like MikeKirby holding the jab button while Sonic charges (Not sure if that's still effective or not) But I'm open to hearing more ways to deal with it. o3o

Also regarding Luigi what does the dude still have after being nerfed. Are his kill confirms just harder? Like what happened with Bayonetta? I hear lots here about what Luigi lost but what does he actually have now that makes people still use him and stops him from being at the bottom.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

W/e with this current topic, I've seen something on the MK discord that I wanted to show you guys:

Agree or disagree?

 

[R3D3MON]

Baby_Sneak

I agree but many people in this thread will disagree with most or many parts of that statement from the MK discord. People will probably give reasons like: Balance can be achieved without making everybody being weak or "not fun" and someone will probably say how tough of a job the Devs have and state that buffing characters are inherently more difficult to do than nerfing characters because they can easily become too "OP".

 

[Eugene Wang]

If you keep buffing and buffing and don't eventually start nerfing characters, eventually you brawl minus syndrome. It's not necessarily bad (brawl minus is actually fun and fairly well balanced), but it's kinda hard to make a competitive game out of characters that can manage zero-to-deaths on soft reads.

 

[C0rvus]

My stance on buffs/nerfs is pretty simple. Stop. The game is fine right now. If the devs listen to people who complain, then you get a Battlefield 3(?) situation. People complained about the best guns and they got nerfed. Then they complained about the next strongest guns, and those got nerfed. The cycle continued until every gun was weak, and the game was a lot less fun or so the story goes.

The meta needs to develop and settle. Patch culture is bad for games, especially among the community. I wasn't around for competitive Brawl, but was the amount of whining and asking for balance this bad? I don't know. I wish it wasn't the bulk of the conversation all the time. I wish the game was done changing and we had confirmation of the fact, but I think the Smash devs are incapable of that.

This thread is for discussing competitive impressions. We should be analyzing high level sets, trying to hone in on characters, develop the meta, all that rot. There is some merit to making known what stands out as over-powered or potentially abusive, but the tone maybe ought to be more like, "hey, Ryu can kill you early off of his dtilt into tsrk. How can we play around this? Who excels at denying him from this range long enough to matter?" And there is some of that, and it's good.

Just think the salt levels are getting a bit out there. That's to be expected, people put a lot of emotions into this game. They can't always be positive.

 

[meticulousboy]

Was waiting for someone to actually point out what counterplay there was so there was less complaining honestly. Like MikeKirby holding the jab button while Sonic charges (Not sure if that's still effective or not) But I'm open to hearing more ways to deal with it. o3o

Also regarding Luigi what does the dude still have after being nerfed. Are his kill confirms just harder? Like what happened with Bayonetta? I hear lots here about what Luigi lost but what does he actually have now that makes people still use him and stops him from being at the bottom.

Um, Up tilt into Up B at low percents.

 

[Mario766]

Powercreep is a horrible way to balance a game.

You want the game to be fun, not make it overbearing because everyone is stupidly insane. Melee is fun because of the options given, but when less than half the cast is actually viable in tournament play that isn't a good balance point.

You can't buff everyone when the core problem still needs to be fixed, the Diddy nerf was right on point, you remove the stupid part, which was Diddy being able to grab someone at 70-80 and kill the entire cast with a frame 3 move, with bananas that lead into free grabs. What did this do for the Diddy metagame? Well, he also got buffs to his F-Smash and Up Smash making them link, so why not do bananas into Up Smash?

Fast Forward to now, and you have a character who is good at damage racking, has amazing neutral, and has consistent kill set-ups, BUT ISN'T OVERBEARING for the ENTIRE CAST.

Anyone who wants to praise Melee because it's unbalanced needs to think of how absurd some of Melee is, let's just look at Fox.

Best mobility in the game
High damage on hits
Not a terrible recovery in a game where recoveries are pretty awful in general.
Absurd kill power
Kill set-ups
Frame 1 move which can be jump cancelled into anything he wants
Less than 10 frames of landing lag with L cancel
and a projectile which auto cancels on landing.

This is actually just absurd for ANY fighting game, not just Melee, and I haven't even touched half of what the character has.

Most of the nerfs that the dev team has done have done nothing but good for the game, the only nerfs that I still don't understand why are the Mac and D3 nerfs, other than that a lot of the nerfs were very well targeted. (I could be missing some, don't shoot me)

 

[Baby_Sneak]

If you keep buffing and buffing and don't eventually start nerfing characters, eventually you brawl minus syndrome. It's not necessarily bad (brawl minus is actually fun and fairly well balanced), but it's kinda hard to make a competitive game out of characters that can manage zero-to-deaths on soft reads.

Here's a really unforgiving game that has near 0-to-deaths that's growing in numbers accordion to kerokeroppi's Twitter posts.

 

[Mario766]

and there's a reason the 64 scene is small.

That and having only ONE stage makes things stale fast.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Powercreep is a horrible way to balance a game.

You want the game to be fun, not make it overbearing because everyone is stupidly insane. Melee is fun because of the options given, but when less than half the cast is actually viable in tournament play that isn't a good balance point.

You can't buff everyone when the core problem still needs to be fixed, the Diddy nerf was right on point, you remove the stupid part, which was Diddy being able to grab someone at 70-80 and kill the entire cast with a frame 3 move, with bananas that lead into free grabs. What did this do for the Diddy metagame? Well, he also got buffs to his F-Smash and Up Smash making them link, so why not do bananas into Up Smash?

Fast Forward to now, and you have a character who is good at damage racking, has amazing neutral, and has consistent kill set-ups, BUT ISN'T OVERBEARING for the ENTIRE CAST.

Anyone who wants to praise Melee because it's unbalanced needs to think of how absurd some of Melee is, let's just look at Fox.

Best mobility in the game
High damage on hits
Not a terrible recovery in a game where recoveries are pretty awful in general.
Absurd kill power
Kill set-ups
Frame 1 move which can be jump cancelled into anything he wants
Less than 10 frames of landing lag with L cancel
and a projectile which auto cancels on landing.

This is actually just absurd for ANY fighting game, not just Melee, and I haven't even touched half of what the character has.

Most of the nerfs that the dev team has done have done nothing but good for the game, the only nerfs that I still don't understand why are the Mac and D3 nerfs, other than that a lot of the nerfs were very well targeted. (I could be missing some, don't shoot me)

Power diminish is worse because you're making already good characters worse because you think you're fixing the core issue when you're just making it even worse and not to mention making the game less fun anyway.

and there's a reason the 64 scene is small.

That and having only ONE stage makes things stale fast.

Except it's growing.

 

[ARISTOS]

Let's please stop this from turning back into a meta discussion on patches.

 

[Mr. Johan]

People cried foul over Bayonetta because she was nerfed in ways that devalued her charm as a combo-oriented character, instead of ways that kept that charm intact by going for other things she had that made it overbearing.

I doubt the hearts of millions would be soul-crushingly shattered if TSRK killed no earlier than 95%. He would still have three confirms into it at the end of the day.

I'm personally more questioning on Ryu having Frame 7 15% Seattle-sized Fair and Bair with the shield pushback of a bullet train that makes landing Fair and Bair free, but I digress.