Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

There's a lot of factors contributing to why the Pits aren't played more...

There's a shocking amount of misinformation and confusion about what they actually are and can do, such as being an afterthought at best for the swordsman conversation because their range is somehow bad even though there's things like Pit's jab being like twice as big as Marth's with similar frame data.

People are comparing Pit to other characters and saying they do a better job at being X then Pit does even though that's the point, since he's probably being the best example of an all-arounder in SSB4. Mario isn't really durable, doesn't have a good zoning/antizoning game, and has pretty poor range overall. At worst you're comparing an offensive all-arounder to a defensive one, though I struggle to call Mario an all-arounder in SSB4.

You'd be right if you said he's easy to play, but he's not easy to win with. He has to play the opponents game and respect their tools, and in an overall sense the opponent doesn't have to be near as mindful of his. He's honest, I suppose. If both players have zero MU experience there's a decent chance the Pit is losing, assuming the opponent isn't a god awful character that also lacks anything demanding immediate respect. He's not like Mario where anybody can win with him, leading to my next point....

Probably the biggest problem is the lack of players. Nobody plays them because nobody plays them. Partly because there's not a ton of progress with Pit's meta, partly because there's not much exposure. Even Earth honestly still has a lot of work to do with his Pit, considering there's a lot of big things I haven't seen him implement and he's still way too predictable with his recovery. To most people he's the only notable Pit main.

The flipside to this is that there's legitimately a lot of room for his meta to grow. We've been finding tech, setups, and important raw data steadily since release with no signs of slowing down. Myself I don't see why one player can't just pick him up and pull out a big win out of nowhere like with Greninja or Mewtwo.

 

[Megamang]

Not to nitpick on one point of your post, but Mario is pretty good at anti zoning with an arguably better-than-Pits' reflector, faster airspeed, and a comperable grab game. He is also good at avoiding kill setups, which makes him durable, especially when he is one of the biggest beneficiaries of rage. As soon as Mario breaks 130%ish, you are at kill percents regardless of percentage.

 

[Das Koopa]

Top 20 as of May 8th, Top 16 side

Spoiler

Bayonetta: 239
Diddy Kong: 199.5
Sheik: 180
Cloud: 157
Fox: 127
Zero Suit Samus: 119.5
Mario: 116.5
Sonic: 115.5
Rosalina & Luma: 86.5
Ness: 81
R.O.B: 79.5
Mewtwo: 69.5
Toon Link: 68.5
Luigi: 66.5
Meta Knight: 62
Captain Falcon: 60.5
Mega Man: 56
Ryu: 53.5
Corrin: 52.5
Yoshi: 51.5

 

[Lavani]

What is it specifcally about Diddy's Dtilt that makes it so safe, compared to Kirby's? Kirby's is safe-ish, but honestly you can grab him out of it without even perfect shielding. Do the 2 frames make that much of a difference? Is the hitbox that much better? I don't remember how good Diddy's Dtilt hitbox is, but I know he gets the classic case of Giant Hands when using it.

• Markedly larger range
• Circular disjoint around his hands slightly larger than fair's forward disjoint (which makes sense at least, since it's supposed to match the clap effect instead of just being there for the sake of making the move good)
• Retracts his arms quickly after the active frames, before a shieldgrab even has time to happen. Kirby's leg stays at least partially extended.

Even Jigglypuffs nair has a disjoint of similar size to diddys fair, perhaps even bigger

Not shown is that Jigglypuff's leg actually stretches substantially ingame, eliminating the forward disjoint entirely.

I know everyone's excited about hitbox visualizations, but not all the animations are perfectly accurate to the game and make some things look better than they are. Don't take everything at face value.

 

[Yikarur]

Badr who won Albion placed 17th at Avalon.
Bayonetta is really dumb.
An additional problem was that they played 3 Stock Bo5 for the entire Top8.
We don't play Bo5 except for WF LF and GF for most tournaments because 3 Stock Bo3 is enough. cyve beat badr convincingly in winners final but he got exhausted from the long top8 and you have to play super on-point against Bayonetta. You just lose your patience if a tournaments drags on for such a long time at some point. I don't think cyve would lose again.

 

[HoSmash4]

Badr who won Albion placed 17th at Avalon.
Bayonetta is really dumb.
An additional problem was that they played 3 Stock Bo5 for the entire Top8.
We don't play Bo5 except for WF LF and GF for most tournaments because 3 Stock Bo3 is enough. cyve beat badr convincingly in winners final but he got exhausted from the long top8 and you have to play super on-point against Bayonetta. You just lose your patience if a tournaments drags on for such a long time at some point. I don't think cyve would lose again.

NL best region EU?

 

[Yikarur]

Bayonetta best region EU

 

[Greward]

The more games a set has, the better player is more likely to win.

So cyve just got downloaded, and you don't want that against Bayonetta since she has those nasty punishes.

 

[HoSmash4]

The more games a set has, the better player is more likely to win.

So cyve just got downloaded, and you don't want that against Bayonetta since she has those nasty punishes.

Badr told me Cyve just was predictable as hell and adapted, hence all the witch times

 

[Ninety]

So Bayonetta continues the trend of having the most high-level results, but few actual first place finishes. I wonder if it's just because no real top echelon players main her in the US?

 

[Marcbri]

There's a lot of factors contributing to why the Pits aren't played more...

There's a shocking amount of misinformation and confusion about what they actually are and can do, such as being an afterthought at best for the swordsman conversation because their range is somehow bad even though there's things like Pit's jab being like twice as big as Marth's with similar frame data.

People are comparing Pit to other characters and saying they do a better job at being X then Pit does even though that's the point, since he's probably being the best example of an all-arounder in SSB4. Mario isn't really durable, doesn't have a good zoning/antizoning game, and has pretty poor range overall. At worst you're comparing an offensive all-arounder to a defensive one, though I struggle to call Mario an all-arounder in SSB4.

You'd be right if you said he's easy to play, but he's not easy to win with. He has to play the opponents game and respect their tools, and in an overall sense the opponent doesn't have to be near as mindful of his. He's honest, I suppose. If both players have zero MU experience there's a decent chance the Pit is losing, assuming the opponent isn't a god awful character that also lacks anything demanding immediate respect. He's not like Mario where anybody can win with him, leading to my next point....

Probably the biggest problem is the lack of players. Nobody plays them because nobody plays them. Partly because there's not a ton of progress with Pit's meta, partly because there's not much exposure. Even Earth honestly still has a lot of work to do with his Pit, considering there's a lot of big things I haven't seen him implement and he's still way too predictable with his recovery. To most people he's the only notable Pit main.

The flipside to this is that there's legitimately a lot of room for his meta to grow. We've been finding tech, setups, and important raw data steadily since release with no signs of slowing down. Myself I don't see why one player can't just pick him up and pull out a big win out of nowhere like with Greninja or Mewtwo.

Pit isn't bad but he's not good either as there's hardly any reason to pick him. While he doesn't have hard counters per se, he's always at a disadvantage against most top/high tiers, even if it's a slight one. He lacks kill options, only being able to kill from juggles and fthrow, when you face characters like Sonic, ZSS, Sheik or Bayo, which can easily land most of the times because of air speed/ movement specials, there's very few you can do. Neutral game is pretty good but the punishes just don't cut it when facing strong characters, as you'll only get around 20-30% of guaranteed damage and they'll be able to return to neutral. For this reason, it won't matter if you win neutral more often, you are still likely to lose the match. Rage as well hurts Pit badly, since he will need to rack a lot of damage for most kills while getting killed by confirms he lacks at way lower %.

I've played Pit for about a year (been considered best Pit in EU by most people, although there weren't many of us in the first place lol) and while you could argue that he's solo viable, I find it very unlikely that Pit wins a major as he's always at a disadvantage, even if it's small. The big tournament Earth won, while an amazing accomplishment, is still heavily reliant on bracket luck, running into Pit dittos and Villager made things much easier for him.

Another thing I disagree with is that Pit has a lot of stuff left to discover. Pit is one of the simplest characters in the game. He's extremely straight forward and most of these setups are extremely unlikely to happen in real matches. Honestly I don't think Earth has a lot of improvement left to do with Pit, he can of course improve as a player, as that will get him better neutral and juggle game, but the character itself just lacks complexity.

 

[DungeonMaster]

but the character itself just lacks complexity.

Agreed, you end up playing frame-data-the-character and there's just better out there.

 

[Emblem Lord]

A lot of Pit talk. FYI pits main ground pokes are unsafe as **** on block. He has to play zoning with arrows which isn't scary, or play a high commitment neutral game and the reward isn't there. He has solid neutral options but nothing abusive or oppresive. His counter-play is pretty clear cut. Usually just block a lot and watch out for dash grabs.
Really ask yourself. Why would you play this
character over Cloud, Corrin, or Marth? All safer characters with neutral that is just as solid. Pits strong Edgeguarding doesn't make up that deficit. Results have shown this.

 

[Browny]

So Bayonetta continues the trend of having the most high-level results, but few actual first place finishes. I wonder if it's just because no real top echelon players main her in the US?

That is all there is to it; the obvious logical conclusion.

The USAs top-level soft ban on Bayo continues

 

[Baby_Sneak]

That is all there is to it; the obvious logical conclusion.

The USAs top-level soft ban on Bayo continues

Is this a fact or rumor? Is there a link or something?

Nobody has proven its existence, only assumed it being true for w/e reason.

 

[Browny]

No lol, just stirring people up.

Its true though that the only reason bayo isn't winning so often despite her constantly being far and away #1 in overall tournament placings is because of her lack of a top level rep.

Any other reason is assuming too much. Things like 'top level players learned how to DI her combos' is immediately shut down by the fact that top level players AREN'T USING HER, so you're comparing two different levels of play.

 

[Illuminose]

It's a combination of many players being settled in their mains at this point and the toxic response to Bayonetta. Many (though not all) of the Bayonetta switches are either pre-patch Sheiks or previous non-top tier players, especially in the US. Many top players in the states think that Bayonetta is toxic (this is fact) and/or don't want the toxic backlash of playing the character. Apparently Japan and Europe don't see picking up a video game character as a moral dilemma. That's basically the bottom line. The fact that her results in the US are still really good is almost inexplicable. Other top tiers would falter with this kind of rep and have had varying degrees of droughts, but Bayonetta is succeeding in the US and not faltering without top level players picking her up. It's not even about saying players are "carried", it's just plain true and it's extremely scary, to say the least.

The other part: who does Bayonetta lose to at this point? I think we can rule out Diddy Kong as even by now (as I've been suspecting since anyone thought Diddy won that matchup). Calling losing matchups for her at this point feels like a fool's errand. Diddy loses to Rosa. Sheik loses to Rosa, maybe Sonic. Rosa loses to Cloud and MK. Even Cloud loses to Sheik. Meanwhile the only character that has been able to consistently perform well against Bayonetta is...Mega Man...yeah. We have results, we have matchups at this point too. She's the best, let's not keep denying it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's a combination of many players being settled in their mains at this point and the toxic response to Bayonetta. Many (though not all) of the Bayonetta switches are either pre-patch Sheiks or previous non-top tier players, especially in the US. Many top players in the states think that Bayonetta is toxic (this is fact) and/or don't want the toxic backlash of playing the character. Apparently Japan and Europe don't see picking up a video game character as a moral dilemma. That's basically the bottom line. The fact that her results in the US are still really good is almost inexplicable. Other top tiers would falter with this kind of rep and have had varying degrees of droughts, but Bayonetta is succeeding in the US and not faltering without top level players picking her up. It's not even about saying players are "carried", it's just plain true and it's extremely scary, to say the least.

The other part: who does Bayonetta lose to at this point? I think we can rule out Diddy Kong as even by now (as I've been suspecting since anyone thought Diddy won that matchup). Calling losing matchups for her at this point feels like a fool's errand. Diddy loses to Rosa. Sheik loses to Rosa, maybe Sonic. Rosa loses to Cloud and MK. Even Cloud loses to Sheik. Meanwhile the only character that has been able to consistently perform well against Bayonetta is...Mega Man...yeah. We have results, we have matchups at this point too. She's the best, let's not keep denying it.

Mega Man? I seem to recall someone noting that Bayonetta has always lost that matchup whenever it actually happens in a tournament.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Pit's main problem is that winning with him is dependent on being able to outplay your opponent consistently, and the characters that actually win tourneys most of the time are the ones that can get a little more reward than everyone else, are a little safer than everyone else, and can reset to neutral a little better than everyone else. He's not really good enough to be an optimal pick or specialized enough to be an interesting pick. Still a good character who doesn't really need anything changed, but the reality is that with 50+ chars some of them are going to be overlooked.

 

[LordMix]

Looking at this whole thread is amusing but I have a really big question and blatant statement.....

how can any of you even dare to make a match up chart when you're not even considered the best with you guy's characters and let alone judge your character having a winning match up vs someone elses character when the best person with your character probably thinks otherwise LOL and its also hilarious how you all think you'd have a winning mu vs my character when almost none of you played me.

 

[Nekoo]

Looking at this whole thread is amusing but I have a really big question and blatant statement.....

how can any of you even dare to make a match up chart when you're not even considered the best with you guy's characters and let alone judge your character having a winning match up vs someone elses character when the best person with your character probably thinks otherwise LOL and its also hilarious how you all think you'd have a winning mu vs my character when almost none of you played me.

We have nothing against MU chart. Not at all.

We have something against just posting a MU chart without explication and we have to decrypt in your place your chart.

People had nothing against Dabuz because he explained his Chart. And he didn't just posted it here.

 

[Y2Kay]

Looking at this whole thread is amusing but I have a really big question and blatant statement.....

how can any of you even dare to make a match up chart when you're not even considered the best with you guy's characters and let alone judge your character having a winning match up vs someone elses character when the best person with your character probably thinks otherwise LOL and its also hilarious how you all think you'd have a winning mu vs my character when almost none of you played me.

How dare you say bowser beats greninja when you haven't played Istudying?

How dare you say that bowser beats mewtwo when you haven't played Abadango?

Now do you see why ur argument's dumb?

 

[Jams.]

While it's true that Bayonetta had a long period of consistent results in Japan and looked poised to take over the region with multiple high and top level players swapping to her, she actually fell flat at their last two major events. At Umebura 22, there were no Bayonettas in top 8 with 9B, Shu, and Nyanko in attendance while KVOxTSB only had 9B place 7th and Ikep at 13th (with both players being floated through pools into top 16). I'm not sure whether this is indicative of any long term trends with players learning the MU or just a temporary slump, but at this point I think it's wise to wait for more results before proclaiming a Japanese Bayonetta takeover. (Alternatively, Kamemushi may be keeping this character down almost single-handedly because he's responsible for almost half the losses of the aforementioned Bayoneta players :^) )

@juddy96 do you know if Rain has played Bayonetta at any events, or if he's going solo Bayonetta from this point onward? His awful placing at Umebura was solo Sheik, right?

 

[DblCrest]

We have nothing against MU chart. Not at all.

We have something against just posting a MU chart without explication and we have to decrypt in your place your chart.

People had nothing against Dabuz because he explained his Chart. And he didn't just posted it here.

I dunno some people are pretty passionate when it comes to disagreeing with match ups that aren't in their character's favour. With or without explanation.

 

[Djent]

Jams. Hard to say because he didn't make it on stream LOL. Rain was experimenting with Bayo but is probably sticking with Sheik/Cloud.

 

[Piipp]

Looking at this whole thread is amusing but I have a really big question and blatant statement.....

how can any of you even dare to make a match up chart when you're not even considered the best with you guy's characters and let alone judge your character having a winning match up vs someone elses character when the best person with your character probably thinks otherwise LOL and its also hilarious how you all think you'd have a winning mu vs my character when almost none of you played me.

It isn't a matter of playing the best of one's character. Having knowledge about the game and its meta is what makes people able to make a MU chart as accurately as they can. And even if you can beat iStudying or Abadango (which I highly doubt) that doesn't mean your character wins that MU unless you can prove it by beating more than one good player of that character.

Besides, MU charts are opinionated. Why are you getting so upset?

 

[Trifroze]

Looking at this whole thread is amusing but I have a really big question and blatant statement.....

how can any of you even dare to make a match up chart when you're not even considered the best with you guy's characters and let alone judge your character having a winning match up vs someone elses character when the best person with your character probably thinks otherwise LOL and its also hilarious how you all think you'd have a winning mu vs my character when almost none of you played me.

???????????

MU charts attempt to measure character matchups, not player matchups. Being good with a character doesn't automatically mean you have any idea of how a given matchup works after you remove player skill differences from the picture.

Overrating a character based on experience against players worse than yourself makes a matchup chart just as inaccurate as rating a character inaccurately because you're not a front runner at mastering said character. The latter can in fact often be more accurate if the person making it can separate character related factors from player related factors effectively and if they're good at making accurate conclusions from higher levels of play than where they play at.

Based on your very optimistic Bowser MU chart from a while ago I don't think you fit that description, especially considering that even as the best Bowser in the world you lack the results to support your own chart (which you claim to have merit over others because it was made by the best Bowser in the world).

...And then you face the problem of being suggested to lead by example and fight against the best players of every character you included in your own chart and see how well it holds up after that. It doesn't work that way.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Looking at this whole thread is amusing but I have a really big question and blatant statement.....

how can any of you even dare to make a match up chart when you're not even considered the best with you guy's characters and let alone judge your character having a winning match up vs someone elses character when the best person with your character probably thinks otherwise LOL and its also hilarious how you all think you'd have a winning mu vs my character when almost none of you played me.

So John Madden who was a football genius can't give insight equal too or greater then a current NFL player?

Your logic is flawed as ****.

Also being a top player doesnt mean you can articulate your thoughts well or that you even know all there is to know. It means you execute better and more consistently in a high level environment.

 

[BunbUn129]

In Lordmix's world, ESAM's Pikachu match-up chart makes sense.

 

[Zelder]

Please don't do that thing where everyone dogpiles a person making a mistake, and then they never come back, and then we end up with the same circular firing squad of posters we always have. I think he gets it, at this point.

 

[Nemesis561]

In the NBA for instance, a lot of the top coaches never even played past a high school level of basketball, and some of the best players to ever play failed miserably as coaches. It's not as simple as "I'm a better Bowser player than you, therefore I know more about the character than you."

 

[Nobie]

If top players of the same character can't agree with each other on a match-up chart then surely there is room for criticism and discussion.

To go to a different topic, I've recently been thinking about "mood-based" character selections and the world beyond simple counter picks.

In Melee, both PPMD and Mew2King have mentioned that their mental state affects their character choice. For PP, Marth is better when he's feeling slower and less cheerful, and he goes Falco when feeling more energetic. M2K Marth only works when he's feeling good, and M2K claims his Sheik to resist a poor mental state better.

Is this something that can even be analyzed, or is it just about chalking it up to feel and leaving it at that?

 

[LancerStaff]

Not to nitpick on one point of your post, but Mario is pretty good at anti zoning with an arguably better-than-Pits' reflector, faster airspeed, and a comperable grab game. He is also good at avoiding kill setups, which makes him durable, especially when he is one of the biggest beneficiaries of rage. As soon as Mario breaks 130%ish, you are at kill percents regardless of percentage.

Mmm, I'm pretty sure Mario's cape is better at reflecting in general then Pit's GOs but I don't see either used all that much. I was thinking Pit's anti-zoning was better because he can force most characters to approach rather then weaving around projectiles and such, though I guess you're right about it being up for debate.

Mario's about 30th in gravity and Pit's about 40th, and Mario's recovery is significantly weaker.

Pit isn't bad but he's not good either as there's hardly any reason to pick him. While he doesn't have hard counters per se, he's always at a disadvantage against most top/high tiers, even if it's a slight one. He lacks kill options, only being able to kill from juggles and fthrow, when you face characters like Sonic, ZSS, Sheik or Bayo, which can easily land most of the times because of air speed/ movement specials, there's very few you can do. Neutral game is pretty good but the punishes just don't cut it when facing strong characters, as you'll only get around 20-30% of guaranteed damage and they'll be able to return to neutral. For this reason, it won't matter if you win neutral more often, you are still likely to lose the match. Rage as well hurts Pit badly, since he will need to rack a lot of damage for most kills while getting killed by confirms he lacks at way lower %.

I've played Pit for about a year (been considered best Pit in EU by most people, although there weren't many of us in the first place lol) and while you could argue that he's solo viable, I find it very unlikely that Pit wins a major as he's always at a disadvantage, even if it's small. The big tournament Earth won, while an amazing accomplishment, is still heavily reliant on bracket luck, running into Pit dittos and Villager made things much easier for him.

Another thing I disagree with is that Pit has a lot of stuff left to discover. Pit is one of the simplest characters in the game. He's extremely straight forward and most of these setups are extremely unlikely to happen in real matches. Honestly I don't think Earth has a lot of improvement left to do with Pit, he can of course improve as a player, as that will get him better neutral and juggle game, but the character itself just lacks complexity.

I don't think you're giving Pit enough credit... Arrows may not deal much damage but they cover almost every option somebody could have in disadvantage. If the special used to escape has any notable lag to it then using a side B is an option on reaction. This is especially true against Bayonetta, because the armor stops all her aerials and the Witch Time jank backfires and neither move activates.

Again, I disagree. For one I haven't seen anybody implement Pit's footstool game at a tournament...

A lot of Pit talk. FYI pits main ground pokes are unsafe as **** on block. He has to play zoning with arrows which isn't scary, or play a high commitment neutral game and the reward isn't there. He has solid neutral options but nothing abusive or oppresive. His counter-play is pretty clear cut. Usually just block a lot and watch out for dash grabs.
Really ask yourself. Why would you play this
character over Cloud, Corrin, or Marth? All safer characters with neutral that is just as solid. Pits strong Edgeguarding doesn't make up that deficit. Results have shown this.

That's just wrong. Pit's ground pokes are significantly safer then Corrin's equivalents because Pit's easily have twice as much range and similar damage and frame data. Pit lacks a swordsman Ftilt, but Jab 1 has almost as much range as Cloud and Corrin's Ftilts with actual good Jab frame data behind it.

I'm calling BS on the excuse that Pit isn't played because other swordsmen exist. First of all, if it weren't for me, most people here wouldn't even consider Pit to be a swordsman. Outside of smashboards I've never even heard people call Pit a swordsman. And second, those other options didn't exist until a few months ago, or at least might as well not of.

Honestly, it's rather telling that we have reason to believe Pit goes even or better against the characters you listed. If he's going even against "straight upgrades," they're probably not so.

 

[Nobie]

Mmm, I'm pretty sure Mario's cape is better at reflecting in general then Pit's GOs but I don't see either used all that much. I was thinking Pit's anti-zoning was better because he can force most characters to approach rather then weaving around projectiles and such, though I guess you're right about it being up for debate.

Mario's about 30th in gravity and Pit's about 40th, and Mario's recovery is significantly weaker.



I don't think you're giving Pit enough credit... Arrows may not deal much damage but they cover almost every option somebody could have in disadvantage. If the special used to escape has any notable lag to it then using a side B is an option on reaction. This is especially true against Bayonetta, because the armor stops all her aerials and the Witch Time jank backfires and neither move activates.

Again, I disagree. For one I haven't seen anybody implement Pit's footstool game at a tournament...



That's just wrong. Pit's ground pokes are significantly safer then Corrin's equivalents because Pit's easily have twice as much range and similar damage and frame data. Pit lacks a swordsman Ftilt, but Jab 1 has almost as much range as Cloud and Corrin's Ftilts with actual good Jab frame data behind it.

I'm calling BS on the excuse that Pit isn't played because other swordsmen exist. First of all, if it weren't for me, most people here wouldn't even consider Pit to be a swordsman. Outside of smashboards I've never even heard people call Pit a swordsman. And second, those other options didn't exist until a few months ago, or at least might as well not of.

Honestly, it's rather telling that we have reason to believe Pit goes even or better against the characters you listed. If he's going even against "straight upgrades," they're probably not so.

I think the lack of Pits comes down to not being so good as to be oppressive, nor being so bad that character loyalists will fight tooth and nail to improve his image.

 

[Macedonian]

So I see people in here keep talking about bayo's neutral, and how it's actually nothing special.

However don't her bullet arts kind of make it so she forces people to approach. And not just neural b but doing Jab, Dtilt, and Nair, while holding down the button and tacking on dmg with a projectile that is hard to stop and react to?

 

[ARISTOS]

I'm calling BS on the excuse that Pit isn't played because other swordsmen exist. First of all, if it weren't for me, most people here wouldn't even consider Pit to be a swordsman. Outside of smashboards I've never even heard people call Pit a swordsman. And second, those other options didn't exist until a few months ago, or at least might as well not of.

Honestly, it's rather telling that we have reason to believe Pit goes even or better against the characters you listed. If he's going even against "straight upgrades," they're probably not so.

Pit simply does not exert any natural advantages that encourage people to play him. He has evenish MUs across the board, and when your playstyle is as vanilla as his (and not the bomb kind of vanilla, I'm talking Walmart brand ice cream vanilla), it does not lead to a jumping to play him.

Pit going even or better against fellow swords means nothing if he loses to other popular characters. Pit probably doesn't do too well vs Rosa, as opposed to MK/Marth who do very well.

 

[bc1910]

Please don't do that thing where everyone dogpiles a person making a mistake, and then they never come back, and then we end up with the same circular firing squad of posters we always have. I think he gets it, at this point.

I fully agree with you in spirit, it's just that this particular post was incredibly aggressive so I can understand people piling on. Mistakes are one thing but there's no need for thoughtless aggression.

I think the lack of Pits comes down to not being so good as to be oppressive, nor being so bad that character loyalists will fight tooth and nail to improve his image.

I agree with this as well. Pit's lack of dedicated supporters (and fans in general, outside of Smash) has led to low usage. Combined with the fact that he's good-but-not-great, this is pretty crippling. He's better than many characters of his archetype (Shulk, arguably Ike) but they are more popular and have more loyal playerbases. Those purely looking to win don't have a reason to use Pit when Cloud, Corrin and arguably Marth exist.

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit simply does not exert any natural advantages that encourage people to play him. He has evenish MUs across the board, and when your playstyle is as vanilla as his (and not the bomb kind of vanilla, I'm talking Walmart brand ice cream vanilla), it does not lead to a jumping to play him.

Pit going even or better against fellow swords means nothing if he loses to other popular characters. Pit probably doesn't do too well vs Rosa, as opposed to MK/Marth who do very well.

I don't think vanilla is really a detriment here... I also know there's plenty of people who think Cloud and Corrin are the most boring and anti-hype characters to watch and play.

...Pretty sure Pit wins against Rosa for similar reasons. Disjoint to handle Luma, and every other move launches at the perfect angle to kill Luma. Bad example.

Those purely looking to win don't have a reason to use Pit when Cloud, Corrin and arguably Marth exist.

See, now you guys are losing me. Since when were Corrin and especially Marth considered to be way better then Pit?

 

[Nekoo]

See, now you guys are losing me. Since when were Corrin and especially Marth considered to be way better then Pit?

I don't know. You're losing me. Since when was the last time you played marth post-patch and since when you can consider Corrin worst than Pit A.K.A the most honest Character?

Look. Pit is fine as he his. A solid Mid-High tiers. But he's not a secret top-tiers.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I don't know. You're losing me. Since when was the last time you played marth post-patch and since when you can consider Corrin worst than Pit A.K.A the most honest Character?

Look. Pit is fine as he his. A solid Mid-High tiers. But he's not a secret top-tiers.

Corrin and Pit honestly are about the same imo. Corrin is more dangerous but vulnerable to turtling. He hasn't really won anything big so as to prove he's actually high tier.