Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[sedrf]

Nice to see riot improving himself

 

[juddy96]

Really good weekend for Diddy. Badr 1st (as a secondary) and cyve 2nd at Albion. Zinoto 1st, Ned 4th (as a secondary), LOE1 5th (as a secondary), Ge0 5th at Rebirth. MVD 3rd (beating Marss!) and C3PO 5th at New Fish. JJROCKETS 2nd at Arch Rivals (Midwest Circuit event with 85 entrants, took a set off of Tyroy). Josh 2nd at Chick-Fil-A tourney.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Diddy showing a pretty convincing case for the number one spot in the meta.

This could very well hold true in the long term, as bayo/cloud counterplay is developing at a fast rate while diddy continues to surge. His meta has skyrocketed since the nerfs and has arguably gotten even a little better as a result of 1.1.5. His neutral is nearly as terrifying as sheik's not only because of banana, but his generally safe approaches with fair/bair, solid options out of roll or spotdodge with dtilt and to a lesser extent jab and ftilt. His advantage state is amazing; you see diddys in tournament getting some 22+ percent off of a grab, sometimes more if they can capitalize on non-ideal DI or if they can punish bad landings. His conversions off of grab seem to last forever, uthrow uair still works at like 80 percent on many fighters which allows him to consistently get a reward off of winning the neutral. And that insanely rewarding grab happens to also have an insanely safe confirm that only requires some stage control to be set up.

There are certainly downsides to the primate, some obvious, some not oft discussed. Diddy's about as stable as a jenga tower when recovering with rockets; simple projectiles can screw him over at times. His peanut covers good distance when it arcs and zones decently, but it loses to almost every other projectile in the game, which often leaves diddy susceptible to camping. His dash attack is pretty bad too.

Besides those flaws, he's just a god in the neutral, advantaged state, damage output, OOS options, and even his disadvantaged state is decent. I suppose his raw kill power is pretty unimpressive now, but his pure damage racking ability and his access to an actual kill confirm almost nullify the relatively weak knockback on some of his smashes.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Fox usually has this one weekend each month where a few of his mains attend big tournaments at the same time. Last month had Sodrek, Megafox and Larry winning a tournament each and SH placing well, this time you have Larry winning, Ksev take 3rd and Xzax place well. I think he places pretty consistently as 4th or 5th on these rankings that @Das Koopa works on each month.

Yea I know, he has a lot of players. I can name eight right now:

Larry Lurr, Xzax, Sodrek, SH, Ksev, Snow, Dugan, Charliedaking,

And I'm certain there's more.

But still, Larry Lurr rarely beats Ally (If he even has before that) and Xzax usually doesn't make it to 5 at 2GGT, and that one was the most stacked so far.

 

[Emblem Lord]

As far as Diddy is concerned...


YO FAM **** THAT DTILT LIKE ERRMERHHGERD!!!!!! **** is safe as FUUUUUUUU confirms into ERRRYTHANG and the hitbox beats hella ****.

Move is straight horse**** fam.

 

[juddy96]

Yea I know, he has a lot of players. I can name eight right now:

Larry Lurr, Xzax, Sodrek, SH, Ksev, Snow, Dugan, Charliedaking,

And I'm certain there's more.

But still, Larry Lurr rarely beats Ally (If he even has before that) and Xzax usually doesn't make it to 5 at 2GGT, and that one was the most stacked so far.

Xzax has only attended 4 of the 6 2GGT's, he made top 5 in 3 of them.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Diddy's dtilt is definitely horse**** but so is most of his moveset. Banana Toss, side B, uair, bair, fair, uthrow ...

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Diddy's dtilt is definitely horse**** but so is most of his moveset. Banana Toss, side B, uair, bair, fair, uthrow ...

Three months ago we had people saying he wasn't even top 10

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dtilt definitely takes the cake though. Such a stupid move.

 

[Radical Larry]

Except its not solo Ganon so its not that big of a deal

that and ganon is still bad lol

True, but I think he fits in low tier, still. He's possibly the 3rd lowest low tier, in my opinion.

Dtilt definitely takes the cake though. Such a stupid move.

Don't let Nintendo see this! They will nerf Greninja if that happens!
*snicker*

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I have a feeling as to who the community will move on to after bayo and cloud get neutered ;A;

 

[Vyrnx]

Fox is super good. I had always thought he would drop as the game progressed, but I can really only see him going up from here. He has ridiculous movement options, juggling, ledge coverage, etc... And it seems like he's been doing even better lately than usual, which is saying something. The thread sort of tried establishing a "top four" of Bayo, Sheik, Diddy, and Cloud, and then leaving Fox outside in a separate tier, but I'm not so sure. I feel like Fox may be a top three character.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Fox is super good. I had always thought he would drop as the game progressed, but I can really only see him going up from here. He has ridiculous movement options, juggling, ledge coverage, etc... And it seems like he's been doing even better lately than usual, which is saying something. The thread sort of tried establishing a "top four" of Bayo, Sheik, Diddy, and Cloud, and then leaving Fox outside in a separate tier, but I'm not so sure. I feel like Fox may be a top three character.

Fox is pretty deadly and he could end up placing really high on a tier list in the future. I think his issue was that his archetype as the technical rushdown character was kinda outclassed by sheik, who honestly just did everything he did better. Now that she no longer gatekeeps or outclasses him as much, his meta could advance tremendously.

 

[Megamang]

He has all kinds of crazy confirms and combos (full hop dair autocancels on platforms! the ass hitbox of ftilt, pivoted from a run, confirms into usmash!) and his own set of crazy moves (bair -> utilt is safe and strong pressure... uair is uair). But he has a well-below-average disadvantage, being a light fastfaller with a bad recovery. I could see that being exploited more in the future.

As greninja, I like to shoot little spurts of hydro pump at him when he is at a diagonal above me. No risk for me, but if he presses a bad button or even gets hit directly with the water, it can suddenly be a stock-losing situation for him.


Doesn't shiek still beat him pretty badly? She got her kills on him from edgeguarding, and that hasn't changed. Especially since his recovery screams BouncingFishMe! and his side B gets owned by her new dsmash (lol)

 

[Illuminose]

Really good weekend for Bayonetta. Badr 1st, cyve 2nd (as a secondary), Ho 3rd, and SevereCalamari 5th at Albion. Tyroy 1st at Arch Rivals. Riot 1st at Chick-Fil-A tourney (Florida tour with much of Florida's best in attendance).

...in addition to Aphro 9th at 2GGT.

Diddy's results were miles better than Bayonetta's this weekend, right (not shots at juddy96 he's great, more at everyone else).

 

[juddy96]

Really good weekend for Bayonetta. Badr 1st, cyve 2nd (as a secondary), Ho 3rd, and SevereCalamari 5th at Albion. Tyroy 1st at Arch Rivals. Riot 1st at Chick-Fil-A tourney (Florida tour with much of Florida's best in attendance).

...in addition to Aphro 9th at 2GGT.

Diddy's results were miles better than Bayonetta's this weekend, right (not shots at juddy96 he's great, more at everyone else).

Their results were about even. Never said that Diddy's results were the best this weekend, just that they were very good

 

[Ninety]

Diddy showing a pretty convincing case for the number one spot in the meta.

It's rather interesting that after the nerfs he dropped off severely in most people's estimations, but now this is the case. While there have been some nerfs, and the power level of the top tiers is definitely lower than it's ever been, I'd say that's a good thing. None of them are neutered, just not as brokenly dumb. Nice case study for when people ask for buffs over nerfs strictly as the only good method of balancing, if you ask me. Plus, removal of overtuned options makes meta development a necessity -- 1.1.5 Sheik and Meta Knight are shining examples of this.

Ok so I just got the characters confirmed by Master Raven

1) Riot
2) Josh
3) NickRiddle
4) Dath
5) Myran
5) DJ Jack
7) 8BitMan
7) Master Raven
9) Seibrik
9) True Blue
9) TrueDimentioKirby
9) Snorley
13) Son
13) Leo Heart
13) Yung Zootie
13) Tremendo Dude

Nice showing by Dath here. Any replays available?

 

[Megamang]

I feel like counterplay for Fox and Diddy has as much room to grow as those characters. Fox has specific combos that work on him due to his physics, and ledge sequences that give him headaches. Diddy... people still don't instant airdodge/DA to catch bananas, and again he suffers on the ledge. His airspeed is ****, so you can basically force him to monkey flip and punish.

But yea, they both have insane buttons that definitely make up for the flaws. I'd say Diddy having a safe, grounded poke and a stronger throw game sets him apart, but fox does pretty well vs 'lame' play. Sure, you can shield all you want, but fox in advantage can end the game very very quickly, he has lasers, he has safe aerial pokes and utilt is amazing, especially with an adept PP'er (the backwards slide even helps position this safe-on-shield, combo starting move). Something i'd like to see more from fox is the mixup of PP-dsmash at the ledge, mixed with his already insane coverage of other options, combined with trumping... if you basically have to buffer ledge options (if you get trumped at high % you should always be dead to dsmash) then his coverage gets even scarier.

I might pick up some fox. Oddly enough, I feel Corrin might be an annoying MU for him, her cconfirms probably work for ages, and he doesn't like disjoints so much.

EDIT: Also, fox players don't miss their ledge techs any more. Consider knocking them outwards instead of going for the stage spike.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Who did DKWill lose to?

DKwill lost to Ned in Winner's and Vinnie in loser's. Ned played Cloud. Vinnie played Sheik.

 

[juddy96]

GOML 2016 registration is going to close soon and it's attracted an interesting array of players and characters. iStudying is confirmed now but he won't be alone, as Canada's finest frog user DarkAura has also signed up.

 

[Yonder]

Rebirth VII Top 16

1st Pulse | Zinoto
2nd Vinnie
3rd Ksev
4th UR | Ned
5th Pulse| Loe1
5th Ge0
7th DKWill
7th GG | Nom
9th Mikey Lenetia
9th Adorable Knight
9th D1cks
9th Nero
13th Viev
13th MJG
13th Fatyblob
13th Rickles

Luigi is an interesting case, he is still getting decent results, but never placing 1st. Really he just strikes me as a lower high tier, to which I find this game has a big high tier. On one hand, I found it ridiculous how underrated Luigi was in Brawl, being put in the bottom 10. On the other hand, his MK matchup was actually amongst the worst in the game so he kind of deserved it, MK was the deciding factor on if you were viable or not. I find it impossible to count Luigi out in this game though with no 80-20 match ups like Brawl. His counters actually mostly reside in the mid/upper mid tier (Pac man, Megaman, Greninja) and mid tiers are not as common in the end. Do not forget that Luigi does well against Diddy, Mario, and Fox. These characters are on the rise, and finding a character that goes even with all 3 that's not top tier is damn hard to find. They matter that much. (I don't know how well Luigi fades against Bayo, loses to Cloud, Sheik, Mewtwo Rosa, doesn't lose as badly to ZSS...those are the relevant matchups of note.)

Don't ever count the character with that much combo ability and frame data out. He may never win a tourney, but his counterpick status is still proficient. He may cling to the bottom of the high tier...but he is there. I think he should round off the bottom of the high tier. Or very upper mid if anything with Megaman and Toon Link above him.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I have a feeling as to who the community will move on to after bayo and cloud get neutered ;A;

Prob Ryu. Punish characters never get love in this game.

 

[Asdioh]

Dtilt definitely takes the cake though. Such a stupid move.

My only gripe with Diddy is the Fair. Ignoring its crazy-good autocancel, the invisible cushion-of-air disjoint triggers me every time. If it weren't for that one move walling him out so effectively, my main would have a reasonably good matchup with the character. (as far as bad character VS top tier character matchups are concerned)

Speaking of Dtilt, looking at the frame data:
Kirby Dtilt: 6 damage, frame 4-6, FAF 21
Diddy Dtilt: 5.5 damage, frame 4-5, FAF 19

What is it specifcally about Diddy's Dtilt that makes it so safe, compared to Kirby's? Kirby's is safe-ish, but honestly you can grab him out of it without even perfect shielding. Do the 2 frames make that much of a difference? Is the hitbox that much better? I don't remember how good Diddy's Dtilt hitbox is, but I know he gets the classic case of Giant Hands when using it.

I kind of want to retract my first sentence in this post, because I just remembered that Diddy's roll is inexplicably godlike.That's another thing that can't be explained just by looking at the frame data; Falcon and Diddy have the exact same frame data on rolls, but Falcon's roll never struck me as amazing. I don't know if it's animation, or distance traveled, or what.

Is Diddy #1? Yeah maybe, but Sheik though!

 

[Knife8193]

Just thought I'd share my thoughts on who I believe the current top 10 in the meta are and who they lose to (degree of loss not given, could mean a slight advantage or heavy advantage). Feel free to disagree or ask my justifications if you want.

1. Bayo (loses to no one, evenish with Rosa/Diddy/Sheik/Sonic/few zoners)

2. Rosa (loses to Cloud/MK/ZSS/some swordies)

3. Diddy (loses to Rosa/Mario/Fox/Luigi)

4. Sheik (loses to Diddy/Mario/Lucario?)

5. ZSS (loses to Bayo/Diddy/Greninja?)

6. Fox (loses to Bayo/Rosa/Sheik/Mario/Cloud/Luigi/Ryu?/Kirby?)

7. Mario (loses to Bayo/Rosa/Cloud/Luigi?)

8. Cloud (loses to Bayo/Diddy/Sheik)

9. Sonic (loses to Rosa/Fox/Cloud/Lucario)

10. Ryu (loses to Bayo/Sonic/Pikachu/some zoners)


This game has pretty good balance when each and every character in top 10 is scary. Fox is kinda the odd man out among the top tiers with a bunch of bad/suspect MUs, but yet he still does very well results wise and doesn't lose any matchups that hard.

 

[NairWizard]

I think that the best main+secondary combination right now is Diddy+Mewtwo. Diddy is just generally amazing against all kinds of characters (from Lucario to Yoshi to Ryu), but struggles a bit against zoners like Megaman, Olimar, and Villager, in addition to characters who can play a defensive game with strong reward off of punishes like Rosalina, Luigi and Sonic. These characters all have good ground games and deal well with banana+f-air shenanigans, which forces Diddy to play a mixup-heavy game that is significantly more inconsistent than his preferred defensive/reactive punish style.


To cover Diddy's harder MU's you might think of playing an anti-zoner, but interestingly enough, the strong anti-zoners like Mario, Fox, and Pikachu don't do nearly as well against the second group of Diddy's problem MUs (Pikachu does fine vs. Rosalina and Sonic but has issues with Luigi; Fox might beat Sonic but has issues with both Rosalina and Luigi; and Mario struggles vs. all 3 to some extent). To really beat that second group you probably want a swordsman, since disjoints and range are a pretty nice way of challenging defensive play. None of the swordsmen characters are perfect fits with Diddy either, though; Cloud came the closest but seems to struggle at least a little bit in the Megaman matchup.


Enter Mewtwo. He's got the anti-zoning prowess needed to take on the heavy zoners and the swordsman-esque disjoints necessary to beat down Rosalina/Luigi/Sonic. If flexibility is your thing then he's also just as flexible as Diddy and can switch up his gameplan on the fly when he needs to. It should be a comfortable/familiar fit for Diddy players.


On the Mewtwo side, Diddy's a great partner just because he's Diddy and takes care of so many random troublesome or “evenish but hard” matchups (like Pit, Ryu, Bayonetta, Cloud, ZSS, and Corrin) with his oppressive ground game. Additionally, Mewtwo seems to not like fighting opposing disjoints since trades are rarely in Mewtwo's favor, and Diddy's f-air spacing eats disjointed spacing characters for breakfast.


Overall, the two fit each other quite well and do well against the field.


If you're not into Mewtwo, though, Rosalina is a fine substitute. You'll trade in your arguably winning MU against Rosalina for an even one, but in exchange you probably get to stomp zoners even harder. Mewtwo is probably a better "playstyle" fit though.

Either way, it's a testament to the game's balance that even a character being called "the best" right now appreciates a secondary.

 

[LiL.Will]

Diddy Kong goes even with Fox and Mario. Luigi is debatable.

 

[meleebrawler]

Prob Ryu. Punish characters never get love in this game.

I think it's unwise to label Ryu as such, as it invites misconceptions over his playstyle. It's certainly a very important part of it, but the way he goes about it is different from almost everyone else.

See, in Street Fighter, Ryu is hardly the most efficient combo machine, relying more on the relative power of his hits in short, simple and easily confirmable combos as well as trading or beating out moves. Now put him in Smash, and his combo ability is suddenly strong relative to the cast, but what players need to understand is taking advantage of his ability to combo with and only with grounded hits. Some can do this at low percents, but only Ryu is truly consistent with his ground combos. Jumping in might lead to the biggest damage as it does in Street Fighter, but is super risky for anyone there and doubly so for Ryu in Smash.

His high damage lets him keep up even without long combos, and means that even if he can't land that magic Shoryuken, it won't be too long before the rest of his KOing moves come into play.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

NairWizard Funny you mention this. I dual main both of them with decent success for the exact reasons you mention. I actually made a topic about a secondary alongside Diddy in the Diddy boards, referring to Mewtwo as an effective one.

EDIT: Something else worth noting is that Mewtwo has a very nice and hard to gimp recovery thanks to invincibility frames. If you're playing Diddy, it's nice to have a secondary who isn't so vulnerable offstage.

 

[Ropalme1914]

Just thought I'd share my thoughts on who I believe the current top 10 in the meta are and who they lose to (degree of loss not given, could mean a slight advantage or heavy advantage). Feel free to disagree or ask my justifications if you want.

1. Bayo (loses to no one, evenish with Rosa/Diddy/Sheik/Sonic/few zoners)

2. Rosa (loses to Cloud/MK/ZSS/some swordies)

3. Diddy (loses to Rosa/Mario/Fox/Luigi)

4. Sheik (loses to Diddy/Mario/Lucario?)

5. ZSS (loses to Bayo/Diddy/Greninja?)

6. Fox (loses to Bayo/Rosa/Sheik/Mario/Cloud/Luigi/Ryu?/Kirby?)

7. Mario (loses to Bayo/Rosa/Cloud/Luigi?)

8. Cloud (loses to Bayo/Diddy/Sheik)

9. Sonic (loses to Rosa/Fox/Cloud/Lucario)

10. Ryu (loses to Bayo/Sonic/Pikachu/some zoners)


This game has pretty good balance when each and every character in top 10 is scary. Fox is kinda the odd man out among the top tiers with a bunch of bad/suspect MUs, but yet he still does very well results wise and doesn't lose any matchups that hard.

I don't think that Ryu loses to Pika, he can outrange all of Pikachu moves with few moves like Heavy Jab, HUtilt, Bair and Fair, and he can kill A LOT easier. Hooded also thinks that it's in Ryu's favor actually. Also, i don't know the Ryu vs Bayo record, but i think it's not bad, I see Trela beating Bayos relatively easily and I think that DJ Jack also beat some Bayos.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I think it's unwise to label Ryu as such, as it invites misconceptions over his playstyle. It's certainly a very important part of it, but the way he goes about it is different from almost everyone else.

See, in Street Fighter, Ryu is hardly the most efficient combo machine, relying more on the relative power of his hits in short, simple and easily confirmable combos as well as trading or beating out moves. Now put him in Smash, and his combo ability is suddenly strong relative to the cast, but what players need to understand is taking advantage of his ability to combo with and only with grounded hits. Some can do this at low percents, but only Ryu is truly consistent with his ground combos. Jumping in might lead to the biggest damage as it does in Street Fighter, but is super risky for anyone there and doubly so for Ryu in Smash.

His high damage lets him keep up even without long combos, and means that even if he can't land that magic Shoryuken, it won't be too long before the rest of his KOing moves come into play.

I'm just saying he bodies you really really hard for messing up. You can easily take 30% and over from whiffing or jumping in or w/e. People hate stuff like that.

 

[Megamang]

Ryu also has a trump card in FA, giving him both movement and insane confirms. Lots of characters have to totally change their gameplans, as far as killing goes, when getting FA'd at all means you die at 75% or less.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I don't think that Ryu loses to Pika, he can outrange all of Pikachu moves with few moves like Heavy Jab, HUtilt, Bair and Fair, and he can kill A LOT easier. Hooded also thinks that it's in Ryu's favor actually. Also, i don't know the Ryu vs Bayo record, but i think it's not bad, I see Trela beating Bayos relatively easily and I think that DJ Jack also beat some Bayos.

Uhhhh...newsflash: 75% of the cast outranges and out kills pika

The characters that beat pikachu beat him because they're able to actually win the neutral against him consistently while avoiding his gimps; not by outranging or killing earlier. Mario does this because nair beats quick attack and cape beats tjolt, sheik's nair beats quick attack and most of pika's aerials, ness does ness things to pika.

Unless ryu has the actual tools to overwhelm and limit pika's options the way the aforementioned three do, I don't see how he beats him.

 

[Megamang]

Ryu gets way more chancees to win than lose. Rage Ryu is terrifying for pika, Ryu isn't scared in that MU unless he is offstage

 

[Strong-Arm]

I find it odd how the pits have such little representation despite how good they are. I wonder why so few people play them

 

[Deleted member]

I find it odd how the pits have such little representation despite how good they are. I wonder why so few people play them

Characters like , , and are all just more attractive options really. They're also meant to be all-rounders but being more popular as a character outside Smash (and having that bonkers air mobility along with having a better time killing than the Pits in general) is probably another factor The Pits are still rather solid characters for sure and are capable of placing well at large events and have a good MU spread, but I can understand why their tournament representation is rather lacking even if its not correlated to them being anything less than good. Dark Pit has Electroshock cheese going for him at least, but I'd rather a Pit main answer this question instead. Sorry for my rambling, lol

 

[sedrf]

Pit is too honest I feel.
What I mean is he has alot off tools that are good or decent but lack any real power. Plus he lacks safe kill options outside of foward throw.
He's still really good otherwise,but i feel without buffs or a **** ton of time that he will see much play

 

[Pazx]

Looking at the results from this weekend, it might be fair to say that Diddy only really "beats" Bayonetta at the absolute top level, with Josh, JJ and Cyve who are all absolutely incredible players in their respective regions falling just short. Take that how you will, but it does not bode well for the meta when arguably the best anti-Bayo character still has to outplay the **** out of her just to have a chance at going roughly even. I will say, however, that the more patient Cyve played the better he did in the MU, and I'm sure that holds true for most characters. Abadango has shown interest in the character recently, he was practicing Diddy on-stream and implied he wanted to use Diddy for the Bayonetta matchup (possibly after seeing Zinoto's performance at MM2?).

Albion is interesting to look at because we had a top Ness, Diddy and Sonic all knocked out by Bayonetta. All we needed was a Megaman in attendance and we could have seen Bayo overcoming all of her commonly suggested "losing" MUs.

 

[Browny]

My only gripe with Diddy is the Fair. Ignoring its crazy-good autocancel, the invisible cushion-of-air disjoint triggers me every time. If it weren't for that one move walling him out so effectively, my main would have a reasonably good matchup with the character. (as far as bad character VS top tier character matchups are concerned)

Speaking of Dtilt, looking at the frame data:
Kirby Dtilt: 6 damage, frame 4-6, FAF 21
Diddy Dtilt: 5.5 damage, frame 4-5, FAF 19

What is it specifcally about Diddy's Dtilt that makes it so safe, compared to Kirby's? Kirby's is safe-ish, but honestly you can grab him out of it without even perfect shielding. Do the 2 frames make that much of a difference? Is the hitbox that much better? I don't remember how good Diddy's Dtilt hitbox is, but I know he gets the classic case of Giant Hands when using it.

I kind of want to retract my first sentence in this post, because I just remembered that Diddy's roll is inexplicably godlike.That's another thing that can't be explained just by looking at the frame data; Falcon and Diddy have the exact same frame data on rolls, but Falcon's roll never struck me as amazing. I don't know if it's animation, or distance traveled, or what.

Is Diddy #1? Yeah maybe, but Sheik though!

Theres nothing unique about that disjoint at all, that is fairly standard among characters that fight with their limbs.

Even Jigglypuffs nair has a disjoint of similar size to diddys fair, perhaps even bigger

This is the lingering hitbox of falcons fair

Really, diddys fair does not have a unique disjoint and if anything, it is on the low side.

 

[Radical Larry]

Asdioh I believe it's the range and the hitbox size of Diddy Kong's D-Tilt that makes it so safe. If you think you're out of getting hit by D-Tilt on shield, you get hit by the next one. Kirby's D-Tilt is slightly slower and has less reach, while Ness's is much faster, but has less reach, and Lucas's has the same range, but I just don't know where to put that since it doesn't have a HUGE hitbox.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts on who I believe the current top 10 in the meta are and who they lose to (degree of loss not given, could mean a slight advantage or heavy advantage). Feel free to disagree or ask my justifications if you want.

1. Bayo (loses to no one, evenish with Rosa/Diddy/Sheik/Sonic/few zoners)

2. Rosa (loses to Cloud/MK/ZSS/some swordies)

3. Diddy (loses to Rosa/Mario/Fox/Luigi)

4. Sheik (loses to Diddy/Mario/Lucario?)

5. ZSS (loses to Bayo/Diddy/Greninja?)

6. Fox (loses to Bayo/Rosa/Sheik/Mario/Cloud/Luigi/Ryu?/Kirby?)

7. Mario (loses to Bayo/Rosa/Cloud/Luigi?)

8. Cloud (loses to Bayo/Diddy/Sheik)

9. Sonic (loses to Rosa/Fox/Cloud/Lucario)

10. Ryu (loses to Bayo/Sonic/Pikachu/some zoners)


This game has pretty good balance when each and every character in top 10 is scary. Fox is kinda the odd man out among the top tiers with a bunch of bad/suspect MUs, but yet he still does very well results wise and doesn't lose any matchups that hard.

Okay, where are these "Bayonetta is the best character" people coming from? I swear, there's too much evidence to say otherwise, but no, they keep insisting.

As for Cloud and Ryu's positions, just swap them.

 

[sedrf]

then who is the best character?
honestly idk and who cares