Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Yonder]

Say there are two people who challenge eachother in a back alley to a knife...err sword fight. These people are Pit and Bayonetta.

Pit obliges to the conditions , bringing his sword. He is honest, fufills the conditions, and does not falter in any particular area. He offers no significant advantage in the fight and relies purely on his own skill in order to succeed. He isn't flashy, and doesn't have any trump card that would make audiences bet on him to win the fight from no where when losing. He stays in a steady course the entire time.

Bayonetta brings a minigun to the fight, unbeknownst to Pit. Her advantage here is incredibly higher, and people complain because she is dishonest and basically cheated. Her weaknesses are minimal, with the most notable one being the startup on the minigun before firing away. She can carry the fight much better due to her more broken tools in this case that offer her a better advantage that basically mitigates her disadvantage of startup and maybe sluggish dodging holding it. Audiences complain to eachother that she cheated, but secretly they are betting for her to win the fight. She even freezes time with her trump card when Pit is upclose with his honest sword should things go wrong.

That's how I wanted to analyse them. I've got a good metaphor/analogy for Mewtwo vs Mario too that I'll post later after watching Pound 2016.

 

[Y2Kay]

Say there are two people who challenge eachother in a back alley to a knife...err sword fight. These people are Pit and Bayonetta.

Pit obliges to the conditions , bringing his sword. He is honest, fufills the conditions, and does not falter in any particular area. He offers no significant advantage in the fight and relies purely on his own skill in order to succeed. He isn't flashy, and doesn't have any trump card that would make audiences bet on him to win the fight from no where when losing. He stays in a steady course the entire time.

Bayonetta brings a minigun to the fight, unbeknownst to Pit. Her advantage here is incredibly higher, and people complain because she is dishonest and basically cheated. Her weaknesses are minimal, with the most notable one being the startup on the minigun before firing away. She can carry the fight much better due to her more broken tools in this case that offer her a better advantage that basically mitigates her disadvantage of startup and maybe sluggish dodging holding it. Audiences complain to eachother that she cheated, but secretly they are betting for her to win the fight. She even freezes time with her trump card when Pit is upclose with his honest sword should things go wrong.

That's how I wanted to analyse them. I've got a good metaphor/analogy for Mewtwo vs Mario too that I'll post later after watching Pound 2016.

That is one whack street fight lol

 

[Luco]

I dunno man, I'm a bit skeptical of the idea that you have to win something 'big' to be high tier. Let's go back to Koopa's results list for a sec:

Top 20 as of May 8th, Top 16 side

Spoiler

Bayonetta: 239
Diddy Kong: 199.5
Sheik: 180
Cloud: 157
Fox: 127
Zero Suit Samus: 119.5
Mario: 116.5
Sonic: 115.5
Rosalina & Luma: 86.5
Ness: 81
R.O.B: 79.5
Mewtwo: 69.5
Toon Link: 68.5
Luigi: 66.5
Meta Knight: 62
Captain Falcon: 60.5
Mega Man: 56
Ryu: 53.5
Corrin: 52.5
Yoshi: 51.5

Bayo isn't winning big events and we all consider her a big candidate for number 1 just based off her results bar first places regardless. Obviously the case is more skewed, she has more theory strengths that we can pull out of a hat and talk about but I don't think it's unrealistic at this stage to make a case for Corrin being a solid high tier contender with semi-oppressive strengths and some positive MUs versus others around their level.

Speaking of Koopa's chart, funny to see Diddy Kong and Sheik sitting together there again. Barring Bayonetta, it's remeniscent of pre-1.0.4 days just... nicer. <3

 

[BunbUn129]

Corrin is simply too oppressive to not be a high tier.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Corrin is simply too oppressive to not be a high tier.

Doesn't his/her slow run speed make this easier to deal with though?

Also, regarding the Pit discussion, doesn't he have insanely small startup for his Smashes (Frame 5 for DSmash, frame 6 for USmash)? I'm not too familiar with Pit's Smash attacks, but it seems like the startup at least should be advantage (those beat out grabs in terms of starting frames lol).

 

[Planty]

Corrin is more dangerous but vulnerable to turtling.

How vulnerable are you to turtling when you have a 7 frame dash to shield? Or an F-smash that is safe on shield and hits further than anything except like... projectiles. Or IP to beat nearly any button press in midrange. She's not super amazing against turtles, but she's definitely not vulnerable.

Doesn't his/her slow run speed make this easier to deal with though?

(Regarding Corrin) Not really. Initial dash and dash to shield are godlike. She has very nice "bursts" of movement on the ground. Her short hop movement is pretty scary too. Other than that, she's kinda slow. However, she's a bit like Villager; Her buttons are so good and cover so much space that her movement matters less than you might think. She really is one of the best characters in a midrange situation.

 

[BunbUn129]

Corrin's slow run speed and air acceleration are some of the only things that hold her back from being a top tier. Her advantages in her huge threat-zone (disjoints, side b, f smash), damage output and combos are good enough for her to be a high tier.

The argument against Corrin being high tier amounts to her not winning anything "big." But, honestly, what is defined as "big?" Winning a major? Getting top 8? Top 16?

She has enough usage and results as a character to justify her being a definitive high tier.

I honestly find it strange we're debating whether Corrin, of all characters, is or is not high tier. Right now (IMO) the suspect high tier is Meta Knight.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Hey guys, finished making the hitbox maps of Ike's aerials. Made some for both non-interpolated and interpolated hitboxes, with the exception of dair (interpolation changes nothing) and uair (everything overlaps so much that the map would be even more of an unreadable mess than it already is). I might go back and do uair interpolated if it's requested though.

Ike Air Hitboxes (Non-Interpolated)
http://imgur.com/a/l2hcA

Ike Air Hitboxes (Interpolated)
http://imgur.com/a/2pmjt

Going to take a break before I tackle any other characters.

Also:

Fair is good stuff.

 

[DanGR]

The more games a set has, the better player is more likely to win.

So cyve just got downloaded, and you don't want that against Bayonetta since she has those nasty punishes.

I think longer sets simply reward different skills than shorter sets.

Longer sets have the [positive?] effect of minimizing variance, but there are other skills to take into account. Longer sets stress one's ability to adapt over time, and to deal with fatigue.

Shorter sets stress strong pre-game gameplans and matchup knowledge because you don't have as much time to adapt. Going in with a strong gameplan is necessary because you can't learn matchups on the fly as easily with less game time. I'd say shorter sets also emphasize one's ability to manage risk:reward. When variance is higher, the more skilled player at "fundamentals" needs to think more conservatively.

For example. Even though I play Rosa in tournament, I ban Town and City every time I play against someone with less of a grasp on fundamentals than me who plays a character who also benefits greatly from low ceilings for low percent kills. At stage selection, I think it's best to minimize variance when you're up against someone you can rely on outplaying through most other means.

 

[LancerStaff]

Corrin's Fsmash is overrated. Just hold forwards before pressing shield and the size of the zone where it's safe goes from being reasonable to unreasonable. The lower attack power hitboxes take priority over the stronger ones if they both hit a target at the same time, and naturally if you shield something sooner then later it will be less safe.

Even if it were a minor difference... Why don't I see anybody try this? There's no downsides. Try it and see how much of an effect it has.

 

[Lavani]

Hey guys, finished making the hitbox maps of Ike's aerials. Made some for both non-interpolated and interpolated hitboxes, with the exception of dair (interpolation changes nothing) and uair (everything overlaps so much that the map would be even more of an unreadable mess than it already is). I might go back and do uair interpolated if it's requested though.

Ike Air Hitboxes (Non-Interpolated)
http://imgur.com/a/l2hcA

Ike Air Hitboxes (Interpolated)
http://imgur.com/a/2pmjt

Going to take a break before I tackle any other characters.

Also:

Fair is good stuff.

Love these heatmaps. Some stuff on Ike's fair, though. I'm trying it in training right now and the first frame it'll hit with his sword inside something is frame 12, which has the sword sticking straight up in the air (basically straight below where you have the 3 in your image):

You are however right about it having more active frames; it's actually active 12-16f (confirmed via ingame testing, sixriver also supports this). The 16f hitbox also reaches lower and further back than what's shown here, even hitting behind Ike:

At any rate, there's your first and last active frames on the move for you, so everything between is also active.

Also, while dair's own animation isn't affected by interpolation, your own aerial movement will still cause it. Minor nitpick about the "interpolation has no effect" comment, doesn't affect the image.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Thanks for clarifying on fair - I was extremely confused when looking through the hitbox/frame data comparisons, heh. I'll update the text on that image later to reflect that information (and dair's too).

 

[Nah]

Corrin tipper Fsmash is -21 on shield, so even with its range that's not what I'd call safe on shield vs the majority of the cast, projectiles or no. If you want actually safe (on shield) Corrin moves you'll wanna look at her aerials.

Is her dash to shield frame 7 or frame 8 though, I've seen both numbers

 

[DanGR]

Corrin tipper Fsmash is -21 on shield, so even with its range that's not what I'd call safe on shield vs the majority of the cast, projectiles or no. If you want actually safe (on shield) Corrin moves you'll wanna look at her aerials.

Is her dash to shield frame 7 or frame 8 though, I've seen both numbers

It's f8, which is tied with Sheik (!) for fastest in the game. It's ridiculously good for a sword character.
Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...O18BmHhvIBMzZLWBpLFyNsi14c/edit#gid=550638974

 

[Nekoo]

Corrin's Fsmash is overrated. Just hold forwards before pressing shield and the size of the zone where it's safe goes from being reasonable to unreasonable. The lower attack power hitboxes take priority over the stronger ones if they both hit a target at the same time, and naturally if you shield something sooner then later it will be less safe.

Even if it were a minor difference... Why don't I see anybody try this? There's no downsides. Try it and see how much of an effect it has.

Each time somebody tell us "DUDE! PRESS SHIELD LMAO! 1!" I lose some I.Q point.

people are human. Your opponent is human. Your opponent isn't stupid.

God. It's remind me of when you said Roy f-smash was overrated when in practice it's either you get f-smashed or you get combo'ed.

EDIT: Also using smash attack to say if a character is overated or not.

 

[LancerStaff]

Each time somebody tell us "DUDE! PRESS SHIELD LMAO! 1!" I lose some I.Q point.

people are human. Your opponent is human. Your opponent isn't stupid.

God. It's remind me of when you said Roy f-smash was overrated when in practice it's either you get f-smashed or you get combo'ed.

EDIT: Also using smash attack to say if a character is overated or not.

This is not a good neutral move against most characters, even though that's why most people value it.... Roy Fsmash still isn't anything special because of the terrible hitbox placement.

And I never said Corrin was overrated because of one move.

 

[Megamang]

Its a good neutral move because you can skewer someone at 60% near the ledge and kill them (charged to throw off shield timing + punish roll). And if you don't kill them, they get a running usmash or maybe a grab BnB, but not the same reward. And they have to respect that, they HAVE to, or else you can win the game by pressing a button at the right moment. And Corrin isn't lacking safety, so her smashes being unsafe is fine as long as they carry a huge reward and relative safety.

Its also beastly in advantage. Stabbing their landing is really, really tough to deal with for most characters. And if they drift away to outrange it, and you happened to walk forward or even Kara-Smash it forward you get tippered, further back, while DIing away... its isn't pretty.


These heatmaps are actually exactly what im talking about. While she isn't safe wherever she can reach, the fsmash adds a dark red heat signature at the further end of her range that says 'oh yea, she can kill you for a slight misstake or even bad guess here, so be careful and never land here'. The low priority is a necessity so corrin doesn't just dominate you by charging a fsmash when you wanna press buttons, not a big disadvantage.

 

[Hero_2_All]

Corrin's Fsmash is overrated. Just hold forwards before pressing shield and the size of the zone where it's safe goes from being reasonable to unreasonable. The lower attack power hitboxes take priority over the stronger ones if they both hit a target at the same time, and naturally if you shield something sooner then later it will be less safe.

Even if it were a minor difference... Why don't I see anybody try this? There's no downsides. Try it and see how much of an effect it has.

I wouldn't call it overrated. Its good for bait's (both setting up for , and punishing for other baits), punishing landings, and for edge-guarding. It shouldn't be thrown out in nuetral unless for a bait (like pretty much any other smash in the game). Another good thing about F-smash is that your opponent must always respect it. As you know, to do so you must shield while entering its range (this holds true for side-b as well). This forces Corrin's opponent into shield regardless of Corrin throwing out a move or not. Really the ability to throw out unreachable, long range, high dmg, and killing disjoints is really something that should not be underestimated. This is partially due to its base power, but mostly for the mental game respecting such moves creates. The ability to make your opponent shield without any direct action is one of Corrin's greatest strengths. I would say however, that the greatest counter to this is high speed characters like fox. They have the ability to run in and out of that range, and punish any whiffs/most blocks that occur.

 

[Pookum Gamer]

Overall, I really do agree with this list.

Except for the Fire Emblem characters.

All of them are too low, especially Marth, Lucina, and Roy. All three of these sword characters have to much speed, to much power, too many good results, and too many combos to be in goddamn low tier.

Marth and Lucina are very good at spacing and have good recoveries, but they don't have as much power or as many combos. Nevertheless, they consistently place well in tournaments. They can't be comboed very hard due to their weight.

But my main complaint is about Roy.

Roy obviously has insane power. You can tell that just by watching his gameplay. Not only that, but almost all of his killing moves can be set up one way or another. His powerful moves may not be as devastating as Ike, Ganon, Dedede or Charizard, but his moves are much faster than theirs. Almost every single one of roy's moves kill, including his up throw, and they are easy to land most of the time.

Roy is also insanely fast. He has one of, if not the top run speeds of any other swordsman in the game. His jab, aerials (besides Dair), f-smash, d-smash, side b, and up b are also very quick. Also, considering his power, all these moves are both very fast and very powerful as well (except for Uair and jab, of course).

Combos. Roy has many, many very damaging combos off of his D throw, F throw, jab, and even some combos with his D tilt. At 0%, most of the combos he can pull off easily do more than 40% with DI, thanks to his power as well. His Nair and Fair can both lead into his throw combos, and if his opponent shields them, he can spot dodge, jab, or grab them now due to his frame data buff on his aerials. Plus, his throws and jab both lead to airdodge reads, tech chases, and just straight up smash attacks, depending on the percent.

He, despite common belief, does get good results. StaticManny, Neo, and sethlon are all great roy mains, and Ryo and M2K use him sometimes, maybe as a secondary. And they all do very, very well in tournaments they go to when using Roy.

He has an average recovery. He has slightly below average vertical recovery, but above average horizontal. He also has oe of the fastest air speeds in the game.

Roy's only major downside is that, being a fastfaller, he gets comboed easily. But, his Uair, Up b, and sometimes counter can break him out of most combos.

 

[san.]

Thanks for clarifying on fair - I was extremely confused when looking through the hitbox/frame data comparisons, heh. I'll update the text on that image later to reflect that information (and dair's too).

The frame speed multiplier messes up some things. I wish Ike had that earliest hitbox location for instance.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Corrin tipper Fsmash is -21 on shield, so even with its range that's not what I'd call safe on shield vs the majority of the cast, projectiles or no. If you want actually safe (on shield) Corrin moves you'll wanna look at her aerials.

Is her dash to shield frame 7 or frame 8 though, I've seen both numbers

Hm, Link's tipper FSmash is about the same safety (-19, but I assume Corrin's has a bit more range).

 

[ARGHETH]

First: The tier list on the first page is pre-Bayo/Corrin patch.

Roy is also insanely fast. He has one of, if not the top run speeds of any other swordsman in the game.

His run speed is good, yes, but his walk speed's the same as Corrin's and he has one of the worst air accelerations in the game.

He, despite common belief, does get good results. StaticManny, Neo, and sethlon are all great roy mains, and Ryo and M2K use him sometimes, maybe as a secondary. And they all do very, very well in tournaments they go to when using Roy.

What do they do with Roy, though? Ryo, as far as I can tell, only uses him in Pools and against Ryu. Does M2K even use Roy seriously? I'm also having a really hard time finding any notable results for him (with Roy) or Sethlon...is there anything past local level?

Roy's only major downside is that, being a fastfaller, he gets comboed easily. But, his Uair, Up b, and sometimes counter can break him out of most combos.

It's a really big downside, though. Roy gets comboed and edgeguarded easily, and there's not much he can do about it. Counter is a counter, so it can get baited out and punished hard; it's F8 anyways. UpB is F9, it's not breaking you out of anything.

 

[ZSaberLink]

First: The tier list on the first page is pre-Bayo/Corrin patch.

His run speed is good, yes, but his walk speed's the same as Corrin's and he has one of the worst air accelerations in the game.

It's a really big downside, though. Roy gets comboed and edgeguarded easily, and there's not much he can do about it. Counter is a counter, so it can get baited out and punished hard; it's F8 anyways. UpB is F9, it's not breaking you out of anything.

Roy's UpB looks like it has super armor from frame 4-10 though? I'd assume that'd help as a combo breaker.

 

[Planty]

Corrin tipper Fsmash is -21 on shield, so even with its range that's not what I'd call safe on shield vs the majority of the cast, projectiles or no. If you want actually safe (on shield) Corrin moves you'll wanna look at her aerials.

Is her dash to shield frame 7 or frame 8 though, I've seen both numbers

But it is safe vs quite a few characters, and most characters that can punish just get a weak projectile anyway.
It's -21, okay.

How many projectiles cover that much space in 21 frames? Needles, laser, and item throws from certain characters like Diddy. All low reward except for banana.

What about a dash-in? Well you'll have to add minimum 1 frame, so now F-smash is -20 at worst. Who can cover that much distance and use an attack within 20 frames (Would it be within 19 frames because Corin will shield on that 20th frame?) You only have a few fast characters like Falcon or Sonic who can punish it, and not many could get any real reward off their punishes.

The counter play to this move is what LancerStaff was saying; stay out of the tipper range. Luckily for Corrin, the tipper hitbox is stupid big, reaching almost a full square on omega Coliseum. Even so, with Corrin's terrible walk, spacing it is often difficult. However, as soon as you get out of the F-smash tipper range, you open yourself up to other options like IP. By trying to avoid these options, you leave yourself open to others. There's nothing your character can do that Corrin has no answer to. There's very rarely any options Corrin can choose that other characters cannot realistically and/or literally deal with. It's just easier to guess right with Corin.

 

[BananaBake]

I have a (somewhat silly) question: What do you guys define as a kill move? For me, it's anything that kills a midweight at about 130% or below, and is somewhat fast. Otherwise, it's not very practical, IMO. What are some kill moves that fit this criteria? (Don't say LCS, we all know that one) Also, what moves lead in to them?

 

[ARGHETH]

Roy's UpB looks like it has super armor from frame 4-10 though? I'd assume that'd help as a combo breaker.

That's grounded Blazer. The aerial version doesn't have it.

 

[Deleted member]

Overall, I really do agree with this list.

Except for the Fire Emblem characters.

All of them are too low, especially Marth, Lucina, and Roy. All three of these sword characters have to much speed, to much power, too many good results, and too many combos to be in goddamn low tier.

Marth and Lucina are very good at spacing and have good recoveries, but they don't have as much power or as many combos. Nevertheless, they consistently place well in tournaments. They can't be comboed very hard due to their weight.

But my main complaint is about Roy.

Roy obviously has insane power. You can tell that just by watching his gameplay. Not only that, but almost all of his killing moves can be set up one way or another. His powerful moves may not be as devastating as Ike, Ganon, Dedede or Charizard, but his moves are much faster than theirs. Almost every single one of roy's moves kill, including his up throw, and they are easy to land most of the time.

Roy is also insanely fast. He has one of, if not the top run speeds of any other swordsman in the game. His jab, aerials (besides Dair), f-smash, d-smash, side b, and up b are also very quick. Also, considering his power, all these moves are both very fast and very powerful as well (except for Uair and jab, of course).

Combos. Roy has many, many very damaging combos off of his D throw, F throw, jab, and even some combos with his D tilt. At 0%, most of the combos he can pull off easily do more than 40% with DI, thanks to his power as well. His Nair and Fair can both lead into his throw combos, and if his opponent shields them, he can spot dodge, jab, or grab them now due to his frame data buff on his aerials. Plus, his throws and jab both lead to airdodge reads, tech chases, and just straight up smash attacks, depending on the percent.

He, despite common belief, does get good results. StaticManny, Neo, and sethlon are all great roy mains, and Ryo and M2K use him sometimes, maybe as a secondary. And they all do very, very well in tournaments they go to when using Roy.

He has an average recovery. He has slightly below average vertical recovery, but above average horizontal. He also has oe of the fastest air speeds in the game.

Roy's only major downside is that, being a fastfaller, he gets comboed easily. But, his Uair, Up b, and sometimes counter can break him out of most combos.

I don't necessarily agree with what you said for the most part, but I wanna point out something.

@Katakiri has been playing as Roy more recently, and he's ranked fairly high on Ohio PR (I think he's #1?). Here are some recent sets he has played using Roy.

Ryo doesn't main Roy, but he has said in the past he loves the character as much as he does Ike and Corrin and wants to push him as far as he can. Whether this means him possibly breaking out this anytime soon or not, it's nice to see him getting some somewhat more notable representation.

 

[ARGHETH]

@Katakiri has been playing as Roy more recently, and he's ranked fairly high on Ohio PR (I think he's #1?). Here are some recent sets he has played using Roy.

He's #2, according to the PR thread.
Also, the link links to the post you quoted...

 

[Deleted member]

He's #2, according to the PR thread.
Also, the link links to the post you quoted...

Fixed, my bad. ._."

Thanks for the heads up, anyhow.

 

[Asdioh]

...why can't I find dashing shield frame data anywhere? help!

And if your dashing shield frame data is bad, should more people be using 'perfect' pivot shields instead, assuming your character has decent options with their back turned, such as a fast uptilt out of a powerhsield, or fast Bair? I never see it used, but pivot shield frame data should be universal for every character.

 

[BTVolta]

Should just be dash length which can be found here.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

you could always check the great http://kuroganehammer.com for all you frame data needs

something something

alakazam

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/DashLength


Edit: F***

 

[Emblem Lord]

Zelda is 16 frames initial dash.

Holy mother****in **** on a ****tard sandwich drenched in your moms ***** milk with a **** pickle on the side.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Zelda is 16 frames initial dash.

Holy mother****in **** on a ****tard sandwich drenched in your moms ***** milk with a **** pickle on the side.

Well... On the bright side her foxtrot is really easy and pretty good!

 

[Eugene Wang]

Roy's only major downside is that, being a fastfaller, he gets comboed easily. But, his Uair, Up b, and sometimes counter can break him out of most combos.

Also, his trouble with shields. His best option against shields is, paradoxically, to space with nairs. Not to get in the opponent's face and deal damage. That's unsafe. Not to grab. His reward on grab is pitiful. It's to space with nairs. And given Roy's intended rushdown design, this puts a big dent in his ability to actually get the damage he wants.

 

[Ninety]

I, and others that are significantly more knowledgeable than me, have spoken at great length at how... Well, not trash, but definitely not good Roy is. I've yet to see any convincing counterarguments that aren't along the lines of "fastfall point blank upair combos into fsmash on Training Mode dummies".

Hyperbole, yeah, but Ryo pulling him out for messing around in pools is basically the biggest point for his viability lately, which isn't saying much given that I'm pretty sure Ryo picks secondaries on a d20 roll.

 

[Das Koopa]

He, despite common belief, does get good results. StaticManny, Neo, and sethlon are all great roy mains, and Ryo and M2K use him sometimes, maybe as a secondary. And they all do very, very well in tournaments they go to when using Roy.

If we change the meaning of "good results" to "I did ok at this sub-80 attended weekly using this character as a secondary", then every character in the game gets "good results".

 

[Kofu]

...why can't I find dashing shield frame data anywhere? help!

And if your dashing shield frame data is bad, should more people be using 'perfect' pivot shields instead, assuming your character has decent options with their back turned, such as a fast uptilt out of a powerhsield, or fast Bair? I never see it used, but pivot shield frame data should be universal for every character.

This is how quickly you can shield out of dash, not run, right? For some reason I feel like I've gotten confused on how all these things interact.

If it's not how soon you can shield out of a run, when is the timing for that?

 

[HLN_Midas]

To my knowledge, Roy's inherit issue is that he's best when on top of the opponent. However, a lot of his attacks aren't necessarily safe on shield, so he gets punished for trying to stay on top of a smart opponent. His intended playstyle doesn't necessarily work out with the safety of most of his attacks

 

[Nobie]

Having a quick dash to shield is obviously better, but there doesn't seem to be any correlation between viability and how good your dash to shield is.