Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Shady Shaymin]

What about marioballs/tjolts? They bounce and are therefore trickier to perfect shield, they can be followed, making approaches easier, and their downwards trajectory leads to offstage pressure which leads to gimps. They're unimpressive speed and damage wise, but at least deserve a spot for their unique attributes that can do scary stuff when used right.

Toon link bombs should be higher. His bombs are absolutely incredible. They're items so they can be used oos, glide tossed, they even work like diddy's banana in that they can confirm into deadly kills. They can even combo break and save from death!

 

[Vyrnx]

Other than needles and banana, the most obvious are the chargeables for sure. CS, SS, Shadowball, Aura Sphere, whichever projectile of Robin/Pac is picked. All significantly better than the majority of projectiles/neutral b moves.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Lol? How could you guys forget Peach clearly has one of the best projectiles in Bob-omb and Mr Saturn :D

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What about marioballs/tjolts? They bounce and are therefore trickier to perfect shield, they can be followed, making approaches easier, and their downwards trajectory leads to offstage pressure which leads to gimps. They're unimpressive speed and damage wise, but at least deserve a spot for their unique attributes that can do scary stuff when used right.

Toon link bombs should be higher. His bombs are absolutely incredible. They're items so they can be used oos, glide tossed, they even work like diddy's banana in that they can confirm into deadly kills. They can even combo break and save from death!

Remember when you tried to change the subject to something more interesting? That was a good idea.

So about Yoshi ... I think he's a really good and underrated character. There was a time when Yoshi-bashing was really fashionable in here, it kind of became a self-fulfilling prophecy. Now that people actually start to get the hang of how to play the character his results actually start to show that there's more to the character than "FG scrubs think he's good because wifi!" - a more accurate statement would be "Yoshi community thinks he's mediocre because they're scrubs!"

Raptor, who has better results than most Yoshi players, is more optimistic about the character than the average Yoshi player.
Yikarur and The Wall who arguably have even better results are even more optimistic about the character thab Raptor is.

Coincidence? Unlikely, just another example that shows how results trump theory when it comes down to it.

 

[HoSmash4]

I watched @Yikarur obliterate a decent Bayo (Jezo) in person at Albion. It was almost a double 3-stock iirc. If you read this, do you think Yoshi copes well in the matchup, and if so, what about it is partcularly good for Yoshi? Not to draw conclusions off one set of course, but I know Jezo is pretty good first-hand; he wins most monthlies in Portsmouth somewhat emphatically and finished 25th last weekend. He does know the Yoshi MU as well.

Speaking of obliteration, I'm sure glad my doubles pools set vs. cyve & Yika wasn't streamed...

You cant read too much into that as Yikarur got double elim'd by Bayos (Me and SevereCalamari)

I think Yoshi does decentlish vs Bayo though. Eggs are a nuisance but having 0 grab grab is a bit of a problem outside of neutral-b being good vs bayo

 

[Game7a1]

Can you reupload these to imgur or something? My work internet doesn't like whatever site you're using.

Your work doesn't like Onedrive? Weird, but I'll just type it out instead (I don't have an imgur).

Spoiler: Typed-out image

Character variety at top eight in 250+ man tournaments in 2016 since 5/10
Has won:
Has gotten second:
Has gotten third of fourth:
Has made top eight:
Note:... those others:

 

[ParanoidDrone]

IMO a good projectile should do one or more of the following things:

Control space
Limit options
Create setups
Kill directly

There are several examples of projectiles that fail miserably at this: Flame Breath/Flamethrower, Final Cutter's shockwave, Clown Cannon, Autoreticle, Din's Fire...I could go on for a bit. Conversely, the best projectiles are probably ones that fulfill many (or all) of those criteria.

Chargeable projectiles () by their nature tend to both control space (when uncharged) and kill directly (when fully charged), and simply having a full charge ready to go can put the opponent on edge and limit their options. When you can punish a bad landing from fullscreen with 20% or a kill, that's a major plus.

Item projectiles () mostly exist to control space, limit options, and create setups. Because they're items and can be picked up, these characters have additional options at their disposal for using them other than simply pressing B.

also have what I would consider "good projectiles" but I've been at this for long enough.

gets honorable mention for PK Thunder but it's not really usable in neutral.

Regarding Yoshi, I'm not really sure what to think of him. I'm pants at using the character myself so I can't really judge from that angle, but fighting against him is either really easy or really hard. His air speed is a major strength that I don't think gets emphasized enough; he's a bit like Jigglypuff in how he can get an aerial in your face with surprisingly little effort. Eggs are massively annoying to deal with as well, and dair is the kiss of death to shields.

Your work doesn't like Onedrive? Weird, but I'll just type it out instead (I don't have an imgur).

Spoiler: Typed-out image

Character variety at top eight in 250+ man tournaments in 2016 since 5/10
Has won:
Has gotten second:
Has gotten third of fourth:
Has made top eight:
Note:... those others:

They blocked Imgur at one point for "pornography", so yeah. (It also got unblocked later that same day, which I think is hilarious.)

 

[Nobie]

A long while back, someone brought up the idea that Marth is purposely designed to play like a Fire Emblem game, where you have to be careful with how you advance, and you have to lure opponents into your range without overextending yourself.

I wonder if Marth's generally bad dash into shields are meant to reflect this.

As for why Corrin has a much shorter one, ???

 

[Shady Shaymin]

It is worth noting that yoshi probably does have one of the worst grabs in the game. It's got good range but it's slow, and has absolutely no follow ups. I've fantasized about yoshi confirming into his godly up air with a throw confirm of some sort, but that would probably send us back to the hoo hah dark ages. Yoshi just has to play safe around shields and capitalize on reads to get kills. He might be more effective if played defensively.

 

[BunbUn129]

Isn't Yoshi's jab cancel -> up smash a semi-reliable KO set-up?

 

[Rizen]

In a void 's bombs are better than 's. The have more damage, can be C4ed, and explode sooner for recoveries. has better bomb follow-ups because his mobility and 5 frame jumpsquat (7 for Link).

 

[Nekoo]

I love how people forget that sonic have the best projectile for edgeuarding safely and as a combo breaker aka his spring.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

In a void 's bombs are better than 's. The have more damage, can be C4ed, and explode sooner for recoveries. has better bomb follow-ups because his mobility and 5 frame jumpsquat (7 for Link).

Why is it that Links bombs are so easy to C4 compared to Tinks? What makes it not explode when thrown at someone's shield and lands on the ground?
And yea people technically can't say Tinks bombs are better when it's CLEARLY not the bombs, but more so the character with the mobility.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Oh man Yoshi discussion, though tbh I'm too tired to get into it too much.

I honestly think Yika's Brawler might be better than Yoshi just a bit though, let's not forget he has that as a secondary.
Raptor has on and off days, even a time where he almost dropped Yoshi to play cloud because of cloud.
Wall there's not really much wrong with him, confident albeit an ego and he gets decent results that matches pretty much Raptor at this point but been getting a lot of random losses lately locally and when he travels if anyone remembers both raptor and Wall at Xanadu.

Short, Yoshi always been a good character but first 10ish months he got next to no results until I think PAX last year or something with Firefly getting 5th place was the start of some Yoshi's doing decent? Partly cause Diddy era + Sheik. Now it's Bayonetta kinda kicking us down, think Yika and one other Yoshi at Albion got double elim by Bayo?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Yoshi's a good but not great character. Aerial mobility is really good, but his spacing options are poor, so he has to outsmart his opponent to get in vs. some characters. He does actually have some kill setups to work with, and a good projectile. He's a B/C tier character, which is always where people have thought he was once the top tier hype died down.

 

[TurboLink]

Why is it that Links bombs are so easy to C4 compared to Tinks? What makes it not explode when thrown at someone's shield and lands on the ground?
And yea people technically can't say Tinks bombs are better when it's CLEARLY not the bombs, but more so the character with the mobility.

Fall speed and/or jump height. That's the only thing I can think of.

 

[TheGlove]

Larry's matchup chart

Will's Match up Chart

Didn't a japanese player named Hikaru also make a Dk matchup Chart?
Edit: Worth noting that on Will's spread -2 = 60/40 and -3 = 70/30

 

[Jams.]

Has Yoshi had any significant metagame advancements in recent months? To my limited knowledge his gameplay hasn't shifted dramatically for a long period of time. Lots of top players seem to believe he has a lot of potential and just needs the right player, but what do the current top Yoshi players need to improve on?

 

[Silthyn]

It is worth noting that yoshi probably does have one of the worst grabs in the game. It's got good range but it's slow, and has absolutely no follow ups. I've fantasized about yoshi confirming into his godly up air with a throw confirm of some sort, but that would probably send us back to the hoo hah dark ages. Yoshi just has to play safe around shields and capitalize on reads to get kills. He might be more effective if played defensively.

I think it's worth noting that he does have a command grab which makes it easier to deal with shields, although it's not exactly the best one around...

 

[Radical Larry]

Larry's matchup chart

Will's Match up Chart

Didn't a japanese player named Hikaru also make a Dk matchup Chart?
Edit: Worth noting that on Will's spread -2 = 60/40 and -3 = 70/30

I wonder if these two have proper MU knowledge of the characters.

Oh wait, I see Sheik is an even for DK. Either DK is confirmed a top tier character or these matchup charts are extremely redundant and shouldn't be taken seriously at all. I say the latter.

 

[Nekoo]

I wonder if these two have proper MU knowledge of the characters.

Oh wait, I see Sheik is an even for DK. Either DK is confirmed a top tier character or these matchup charts are extremely redundant and shouldn't be taken seriously at all. I say the latter.

Like I said. We should stop posting mu chart unless tyere is explanation.

also Ryu even or just -1 against DK?

I wont say anything. This is just ********.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm really, really curious about why DK beats Greninja since it's the second time I've seen a DK MU chart with him having a +1 on frog

 

[C0rvus]

But DK has a notably good Sheik matchup. Maybe not even, but close enough.

 

[BunbUn129]

I wonder if these two have proper MU knowledge of the characters.

Well they are top level players so....

I trust they'd know the Sheik-DK MU better than either of us.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It is worth noting that yoshi probably does have one of the worst grabs in the game.

He also has the best command grab in the game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Like I said. We should stop posting mu chart unless tyere is explanation.

also Ryu even or just -1 against DK?

I wont say anything. This is just ********.

I dont even agree with top DK's on this match.

I told Will to his face that Ryu loses to DK and he laughed. Granted this was months ago.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I wonder if these two have proper MU knowledge of the characters.

Oh wait, I see Sheik is an even for DK. Either DK is confirmed a top tier character or these matchup charts are extremely redundant and shouldn't be taken seriously at all. I say the latter.

Having a close to even or even top tier MU doesn't suddenly push into top tier echelon, it just means you have the right tools under the right conditions. For instance, DK can't fight frame by frame with Sheiks, but DK can space and rack easy % with Bair and utilt. Those moves alone put that MU in check. Once DK is on ledge, that's when Sheik wins, but onstage, it's entirely possible to win. Then there's player to player MU. IIRC Will has never beaten Vinnie going back to Brawl, but he beats other Sheiks. While Larry beats Sheiks for breakfast.

 

[BTVolta]

I wonder if these two have proper MU knowledge of the characters.

Oh wait, I see Sheik is an even for DK. Either DK is confirmed a top tier character or these matchup charts are extremely redundant and shouldn't be taken seriously at all. I say the latter.

Dismissing their opinions because it's different then yours without even trying to analyze why they may think that way isn't productive to discussion and only helps keep the status quo(if there is one). Riot, previous best solo DK in Florida(now Bayo main), also thinks DK does well against Sheik and Ryu(some of the MUs he still uses DK for). Others have already said some input on these so I won't, but please at least try to dissect some thought from these list instead of disrespecting their opinions immediately.

 

[Ninety]

Larry's matchup chart

Will's Match up Chart

Didn't a japanese player named Hikaru also make a Dk matchup Chart?
Edit: Worth noting that on Will's spread -2 = 60/40 and -3 = 70/30

Well, I'll be damned. That's gotta be one of the very few times where other character's top-level mains have said Robin beats them. I agree with this case, mind you, it's just a rare treat to see.

 

[Radical Larry]

Well the whole "DK being top tier" thing was a joke I made.

Regardless, Man Li Gi
Wouldn't it be reasonable to say that it is not Donkey Kong who is making the MU but it's actually the conditioning and training the two players have that make them able to beat Sheik? They could have focused heavily on beating Sheik to the point where it seems redundant to use her now against the two players unless something were applied or changed to make Sheik win the MU more. In all honesty, depending on who the player is, Sheik could win, Sheik could lose.

That can correlate to many characters, too. If the player focuses on one character deeply, they'll eventually make the opponent have to switch characters because the player who uses their character knows how to beat this Sheik or that Bayonetta or those Clouds. While I may not be a good example, I would say my Ganondorf can eat Donkey Kongs at around Intermediate to Semi-Professional levels of skill all day because I know how they, for the most part at least, fight. The same with Sheik or any other character, because I've conditioned myself to know what the opponent will throw out and what the opponent will do.

Now I can't beat a Bayonetta or Cloud that's amazingly good with my Ganondorf as of yet since I haven't focused on them with him, but my Link does decently well with said characters, if not amazing against Cloud players.

So I figure that the reason Sheik could be an even for DK or a slight advantage for DK is the fact that the players have ultimately conditioned themselves to know how Sheik works. Of course, this is all theoretical, but it could be right. Seeing Link as an even or a slight disadvantage for Donkey Kong kind of confirms this notion, or even seeing characters like Peach or the Pits at Even and Advantageous to DK, respectively, proves it too.

 

[C0rvus]

He also has the best command grab in the game.

What makes his better than Wario's? Range? Cuz I think Chomp is the best, but I suppose the distinction matters very little.

To elaborate, Wario's grants him a much needed option to pressure opponents, especially on platforms and at the ledge. It also has lots of active frames and can eat items, some of which restore health. The last bit is especially relevant to his game plan, since he can anti-zone certain characters and eating the Bike rounds out that move's usefulness. Also I'm pretty sure that Chomping and opponent speeds up the Waft as well, which is really good.

Yoshi's fills a hole in his gameplan a bit, has more range, and generally leads into more damage. Its wavebounce and b-reverse are also very good movement mixups.

I guess they are pretty different, but both candidates for the best. Bowser would be up there as well, if his had some more range or active frames.

 

[Trifroze]

Characters like Ryu, DK, Bowser and Lucario are really hard to judge matchups for. There are so many characters that should more or less shut them down when played perfectly (in a humanly realistic sense), yet if you make the slightest mistake at the wrong time or they make one read on you that was practically impossible to foresee, you lose a stock at 50% because you're a top tier character aka very likely a lightweight fastfaller.

I'm personally of the crew who thinks these characters cannot possibly have worse matchups than 30:70 / -2. They're not great because or their inconsistency, yet that inconsistency also includes the kinds of positive spikes that let them win in situations where they "shouldn't", which in turn prevents them from having any close to unwinnable matchups.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I can't believe you lumped Ryu with Lucario.

Lucario literally has no neutral game. His gameplan is get ****ed up then become a huge threat that he in no way earned through effort.

This is the EXACT opposite of Ryu who FORCES you to play the game and earn basically any momentum you get.

 

[Trifroze]

On the other hand Ryu can bop you at 60% when he's at 0% while Lucario can't. He (or DK or Bowser) doesn't have to go through the gauntlet of taking damage and possibly dying while doing it, whereas Lucario does (which balances the "dumb" design).

They're all similar in the sense that they (survive long and then) kill you early with one conversion.

 

[Y2Kay]

lol Lucario does have a neutral just like everyone else. It isn't really good tho.

Aura charge is nice for giving ur opponent incentive to approach. He has a good standing grab and throw combos to punish OOS. Jab, F tilt and up tilt has some good range. And his aerials are all high class. Finally, he has a good command grab to mix it up and pressure shields.

The reason his neutral isn't very good because he has mediocre mobility and doesn't have many safe pokes to throw out against people.

My Lucario, for example, is bait and punish. I mainly use short hops, fox trots (Lucario's is godly btw) and wave bounces, and b reverses to lure my opponent close and punish them for making a move.

Also, any Lucario main worth their salt will be playing to win at all times.

You know, just like everyone else.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Well the whole "DK being top tier" thing was a joke I made.

Regardless, Man Li Gi
Wouldn't it be reasonable to say that it is not Donkey Kong who is making the MU but it's actually the conditioning and training the two players have that make them able to beat Sheik? They could have focused heavily on beating Sheik to the point where it seems redundant to use her now against the two players unless something were applied or changed to make Sheik win the MU more. In all honesty, depending on who the player is, Sheik could win, Sheik could lose.

That can correlate to many characters, too. If the player focuses on one character deeply, they'll eventually make the opponent have to switch characters because the player who uses their character knows how to beat this Sheik or that Bayonetta or those Clouds. While I may not be a good example, I would say my Ganondorf can eat Donkey Kongs at around Intermediate to Semi-Professional levels of skill all day because I know how they, for the most part at least, fight. The same with Sheik or any other character, because I've conditioned myself to know what the opponent will throw out and what the opponent will do.

Now I can't beat a Bayonetta or Cloud that's amazingly good with my Ganondorf as of yet since I haven't focused on them with him, but my Link does decently well with said characters, if not amazing against Cloud players.

So I figure that the reason Sheik could be an even for DK or a slight advantage for DK is the fact that the players have ultimately conditioned themselves to know how Sheik works. Of course, this is all theoretical, but it could be right. Seeing Link as an even or a slight disadvantage for Donkey Kong kind of confirms this notion, or even seeing characters like Peach or the Pits at Even and Advantageous to DK, respectively, proves it too.

What you're saying to me is that if I train against certain characters enough, I will understand the MU at an even level of competition? If so, then yes I agree with you.

P2P MU is way different from raw character MU battles. The whole point of an MU chart is to best predict an outcome of X & Y players of equal skill and playing different characters. Nothing about conditioning is needed for that.

 

[Teshie U]

I love how people forget that sonic have the best projectile for edgeuarding safely and as a combo breaker aka his spring.

Not really, z drop any item for the same effect without skyrocketing yourself so high you can't capitalize. Then you have things like pit's arrows and duck hunt can and pk thunder. Alot of stuff gives you more precision and control.

 

[Y2Kay]

Characters like Ryu, DK, Bowser and Lucario are really hard to judge matchups for. There are so many characters that should more or less shut them down when played perfectly (in a humanly realistic sense), yet if you make the slightest mistake at the wrong time or they make one read on you that was practically impossible to foresee, you lose a stock at 50% because you're a top tier character aka very likely a lightweight fastfaller.

I'm personally of the crew who thinks these characters cannot possibly have worse matchups than 30:70 / -2. They're not great because or their inconsistency, yet that inconsistency also includes the kinds of positive spikes that let them win in situations where they "shouldn't", which in turn prevents them from having any close to unwinnable matchups.

You should add Mewtwo to that list.

Mewtwo's small room for error can cause you to lose MU's you shouldn't, and his raw power allows him to tackle any character in the cast effectively.

 

[ARGHETH]

As for why Corrin has a much shorter one, ???

Because this is Birthright!Corrin, where the general strategy is to run into the enemy and let them kill themselves trying to attack you.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You should add Mewtwo to that list.

Mewtwo's small room for error can cause you to lose MU's you shouldn't, and his raw power allows him to tackle any character in the cast effectively.

Mewtwo is LITERALLY the good non gimmick version of Lucario.

Actual footsies. Actual pokes. Actual anti-air game. Similar zoning game. Better set-ups. Strong containment and landing trap game due to high mobility.

yo....what the ****?