Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Luco]

BAM 8 is set to begin tomorrow evening (closer to 2 days but eh it's 1:30 AM Thursday and it starts Friday night with crews and the like soooo), we've got 253 entrants (JUST below the 260 line we were talking about before, sadness ;_; ) and the internationals are set to be Mr R, Umeki, 9B and Abadango. We can thank the US government for Nairo and ESAM not being able to make it. That being said it's gonna be hype, I wish the front page would report on it gosh.

Notable Aussie players to look out for would include:

Waveguider (ACT #1)
Ghostbone (SA #1)
Con (SA #2)
Nikes (SA #3)
Earl (VIC #1)
Bigboss (VIC #2)
V (VIC HMs)
Kira (NSW #3)
MM (NSW #4)
Jezmo (QLD #1)
Jaice (QLD #2)
Poppt1 (WA #1)

And plenty more. Lots of talent. I'll update you guys when pools get released (probably today at some point).

 

[Emblem Lord]

it must mean something if im a top player and your not LOL you're not even the best ryu wtf plz die

Quite a talent you have for saying nothing of importance.

 

[Y2Kay]

Quite a talent you have for saying nothing of importance.

Of all the people in this thread I wonder why he decided to pick a fight with you lol.

 

[C0rvus]

Nevermind, this was an immature post. I refuse to take the bait. Plus, the thread's really piling onto this guy now. Kinda a waste of time, especially when he could just be pulling our leg.

I didn't know Waveguider had a Greninja. I'll have to tune in to BAM, it's been too long since I've watched Australian Smash 4.

 

[Piipp]

I'm pretty sure LordMix is just baiting us now. If he's not, then I feel bad for the players in Georgia and Bowser Mains that have to be around him or recognize him as best Bowser. I'm glad I don't live in Georgia anymore...

 

[Radical Larry]

@LordMix Hey, you kind of had to get me off track on a previous topic. Well, judging by what you posted though, let me ask you something, why did ZeRo consider you the best Bowser player when you act like an immature person? Out of all of the things you could have said on this board, you had to go ahead to insult someone, didn't you? It was Emblem Lord that you insulted from your post yes?

Look man, just because you're called the best Bowser player by opinion doesn't mean a damn thing. First of all, there could be people out there with Bowsers that would cream you. Secondly, don't think that there aren't people out there, and in this thread especially, who can beat your Bowser with any relative ease because they're significantly better than you. Again, let me tell you something; out of anything that would have come to your mind in a post, you had to go with an insult on the dude because of nothing. You could have easily spread the knowledge of Bowser instead of going on some flame topic.

Now personally, I'd like to see how good or bad your Bowser is, and we're not that far apart either state-wise or region-wise.

But at the end of the day, you should have posted something different instead of flaming someone. That isn't a good thing to start out with, man. And like Piipp said, if you're not just baiting us, then even I feel bad for the same people who have to be around you. But dude, LordMix, please don't insult people. It's unsportsmanlike and unprofessional to do.

 

[sedrf]

How the hell is bowser fraudalent.
Anyway,Is their any character in smash that's incredibly footsie based?
Comparing all games(including PM) which is the more footsie/neutral based?

 

[FallofBrawl]

How the hell is bowser fraudalent.
Anyway,Is their any character in smash that's incredibly footsie based?
Comparing all games(including PM) which is the more footsie/neutral based?

Ryu, Mewtwo, Little Mac
To a lesser extent, Falco/Marth

Most neutral based game is probably 64, very long and winding neutral game and crazy punishes.

Although, this game is nerfing advantageous states and shifting to a healthy dose of all 3 states.

Melee is also very neutral based as the amount of tools to control your character to control their space is immense. Although it's not as punishable as 64, and L-canceling/movement options help create openings (through executing right and poorly), this gives a fairly good/healthy 50/50 balance of offense/defense in Melee.

But in the end it isn't easy to make a comparison of neutrals in these games, they all are vastly different from one another, with their own definitions of neutrals etc.

 

[sedrf]

For any of you brawl/pm players, can you describe the neutral of brawl/pm

 

[Ulevo]

Emblem Lord you mentioned previously Meta Knight versus Ryu is 4:6. Can you elaborate on how you feel this match up goes and why Ryu has the favor.

 

[C0rvus]

I would imagine it boils down to reward from neutral. Meta Knight's neutral isn't bad at all, but Ryu definitely seems capable of keeping the pace, if not outright dictating it. When Ryu gets in, he could end your stock in 2-3 interactions. Regardless of ratios, I can see it being one of Ryu's less stressful MUs simply because Meta Knight has a largely ground based neutral and no way of really keeping away from his opponent. He has to go in at some point.

 

[BunbUn129]

Neutral, damage racking, and KOing--Meta Knight loses in these three aspects. His frame data is worse and he can't exploit Ryu's short range due to his own short range. Ryu's tilts can deal handily with MK's grounded approach, but then MK can't safely approach from the air either with his above average landing lag and Ryu's anti-airs. All of MK's multi-hits come with some level of commitment so Focus Attack can be another issue.

Ryu has consistent reward across most percents, while MK struggles to get good reward past 50% without repeatedly using Shuttle Loop and staling it, which further compounds the fact that he KO's significantly later than Ryu regardless. Ryu thus lives longer and gets to abuse rage which makes TSRK an even bigger issue.

MK's saving grace is supposedly the offstage game, but even that comes at a price because if he fails and Ryu returns before him, he can easily cover MK's get-up options with his tilts, which will often lead to a KO.

But Ryu isn't a common match-up so it shouldn't be highly detrimental to MK in practice. Tyrant was also making awful decisions against Trela so it seemed worse than it should be (granted it's still a pretty bad MU).

 

[Man Li Gi]

How to be that "guy":
1. *insert inflammatory statement with some easy bait
2. Watch bait get taken
3. Multiple Choice time!:
A. And punish accordingly
B. Watch the Fire Grow
C. Get dogpiled
Easily the dumbest option and has to be false:
D. Ignore and proceed with life.

In all seriousness, if one of us falters and replies to simple bait while being a veteran on this thread, I have to wonder why you are still on this thread.

 

[Megamang]

Is mewtwo really 'playing footsies' when he just dominates the ground around him with his absurd dtilt?

I like greninja's footsies, there is a decent use for each tilt, and the mixup provides some shield safety. His huge PP, and overall solid mobility, lets him burst around really well.

I'd argue that Cloud actually has to play footsies, against someone who knows the MU. He doesn't have a great grounded poke, so its mostly him jockying for position while trying to end up somewhere where he can start some aerial stuff. Again, huge PP and foxtrot gives him this ability above most others.

Ryu is an obvious one, he has more pokes than anyone else.

MK...

Basically, anyone without a stupid button that ends up being the go to every time (Mario dair ughghghgh) has to play footsies. Those with these buttons can elect to play footsies to increase the efficacy of their tools, but otherwise can just 'press buttons' and try and overwhelm your worse button presses.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

In all seriousness, if one of us falters and replies to simple bait while being a veteran on this thread, I have to wonder why you are still on this thread.

Because replying to bait can be entertainment in of itself at times. Certainly a break in the flow of "How's Greninja/Ryu/Pikachu"

 

[Megamang]

I mean, its not like its a brand new account just spraying toxicity. Its a known player.

This is why Zero's videos are hated outside less skilled circles. This ego swell is honestly probably the best way to improve as Bowser though. Ive thought about switching to Bow after some stressful tournament sets. There is something to be said about just going for it. If they are shielding your sheer aggression, you have a command grab that does a ****ton of damage. Otherwise, you just gotta get that grab at like 65%(?) and end it. Less stressful than giving Ryu rage with 150 pellets.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Is mewtwo really 'playing footsies' when he just dominates the ground around him with his absurd dtilt?

I like greninja's footsies, there is a decent use for each tilt, and the mixup provides some shield safety. His huge PP, and overall solid mobility, lets him burst around really well.

I'd argue that Cloud actually has to play footsies, against someone who knows the MU. He doesn't have a great grounded poke, so its mostly him jockying for position while trying to end up somewhere where he can start some aerial stuff. Again, huge PP and foxtrot gives him this ability above most others.

Ryu is an obvious one, he has more pokes than anyone else.

MK...

Basically, anyone without a stupid button that ends up being the go to every time (Mario dair ughghghgh) has to play footsies. Those with these buttons can elect to play footsies to increase the efficacy of their tools, but otherwise can just 'press buttons' and try and overwhelm your worse button presses.

Just because a tool is dumb doesn't mean they can do w/e in the neutral lol. If they misuse these tools (provided your character is able), they'll get smacked

 

[Emblem Lord]

Emblem Lord you mentioned previously Meta Knight versus Ryu is 4:6. Can you elaborate on how you feel this match up goes and why Ryu has the favor.

Yeah sure.

Neutral

Both characters tend to rely on a ground based neutral. Meta has strong burst movement with dash attack and dash grab which leads to solid conversions. Ryu is more based on a mix of diff options, playing around what his opponent does then going for grabs or closing in when his opponent hesitates. MK cant really challenge Ryu air to ground. Its not really worth it in terms of risk vs reward, especially when Ryu has strong AA options. MK's tilts can lead to grabs or solid advantage by popping him in the air, but Ryu generally outranges and outdamages MKs pokes with his own. Since MK doesnt hae reliable death conversions off single strat hits or grabs he has to play that much more cautious. Hitting a random Focus with dash attack could spell his demise as Ryu has some easy 0 to death conversions on MK, as shown by Trela vs Tyrant recently. This aspect of the match definitely favors Ryu. He hits harder and attacks nearly as fast and is just as safe overall. Playing a ground game plays into Ryu's hands and MK doesnt have the airspeed or range to really juke Ryu with an aeriel based footsie gameplan.

Advantage

Ryu is absolutely deadly when he gets a conversion. Ryu has low percent to death conversions from not just FA, but also falling fair which is a common space control tactic of Ryu players. Utilt lock is also very deadly vs MK as well. Even if it doesnt lead to a kill, its an easy way to rack up damage. Add in MK's light weight and fast faller speed, and you have a recipe for a character that can be taken out quickly if they make a mistake or their opponent guess right in the neutral. MK generally has an easier time converting thanks to burst options with dash attack and dash grab, but his conversion is generally not deadly. MK is going to get more out of trap situations namely edgegaurding and landing traps. So MK has less direct reward then Ryu, but his trap game and edgeguarding are top notch.

Disadvantage

Ryu is solid in dealing with this thanks to wavebounce and b-reverse FA, but not anywhere near MK's level on terms of getting out of bad non-combo situations. Ryu also has linear recovery and can intercepted if the opponent plays it right. MK has far better and trickier recovery. MK also has his down b to act as a kind of teleport which can quickly move him out of harms way and onto the ground or ledge. But the trade off is that due to his weight he will die early and as a fast faller he is subject to much more heinous and deadly combos. This kind of mitigates the strong options he has in non-combo situations, especially since his neutral is a bit linear and can be risky vs Ryu. This means MK is generally going to get hit more so then Ryu. Which means Ryu is going to be getting REAL combos and MK's solid disadvantage matters alot less.


Everything comes back to the neutral and the fact that MK can only threaten with options that are actually riskier for HIMSELF, more so than they are for Ryu. MK has strong edgegaurding, but he has to get Ryu offstage first. Besides that Ryu generally takes it. Hits harder, better combos, takes more punishment, better, safer and far more consistent kill confirms. Before MK could bank on a stray hit turning into a kill. He cant do that anymore. Instead he has to play perfect and then still worry about dying at 50% to raged Ryu.

Ulevo did you disagree because....I don't see how this isn't Ryu's fight now.

 

[warionumbah2]

The day MK got deleted from the roster Ulevo already commented on the MU being crap.

 

[Blobface]

Something I'd really like to see looked into more is frame trapping getup options out of ledge trumps. You can see Nairo do this a fair bit.

Spoiler

4:00 and 18:30

What really makes this effective is that you're ready to respond to whatever happens. If they get trumped, you're ready to abuse their lack of ledge invincibility. If they buffer a getup, you're in a perfect position to punish it.

Even Ganon has options to frame trap getup options by ledgehopping with B-air. If the character with the worst mobility stats in the game can do it, anyone can.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

@LordMix While I don't always agree with Emblem Lord, he made a great point, take the damn L

On topic, while Bayo doesn't get the results at the top level, her mid to high level dominance isn't something to scoff at. She reminds me of prepatch Luigi, but stronger and more relevant.

BTW, which zoners do have a good Bayo MU? Besides Megaman

Toon Link does great, he has all of the benefits of Megaman, he has his backthrow, and he can edgeguard her extremely well. I can consistently beat her low recovery with dair at the ledge and mid/high recovery can be messed with using a combination of projectiles, fair, nair, and zair

On the topic of footsies, Ike's neutral is a mix of footsies and grappling. He can space on the ground with dtilt and ftilt and in the air with nair, fair, and bair. If he needs to get in he can consistently get 20-30% off of grabs/nair and then go right back to spacing and baiting out an approach with his great pokes

 

[Megamang]

TL's projectiles aren't near as strong at making a wall as pellets. Also, metal blade eats all her specials alive and grounded MB confirms into utilt kills at like 70% on her.


Both are very susceptible to Witch Time, which will probably get more cruel as time goes on and Bayonettas learn gimp combos.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

TL's projectiles aren't near as strong at making a wall as pellets. Also, metal blade eats all her specials alive and grounded MB confirms into utilt kills at like 70% on her.


Both are very susceptible to Witch Time, which will probably get more cruel as time goes on and Bayonettas learn gimp combos.

well no, obviously nothing is going to be as effective as pellets at projectile walling but Toon Link still excels at it. He also has better mobility so theres that too

I also feel like Rob is worth mentioning because good god Gryo eats Bayo alive

 

[Kirbyoshi]

So, not trying to be inflammatory, but does anyone know when are going to be added to the tier list? Is there a generally accepted place to insert them?

 

[Megamang]

Mega has better (in my opinion, which values air accel a lot) mobility. And is significantly heavier, which is a godsend when your deaths are all uairs near the top

 

[wedl!!]

After the summer majors are over and patches are confirmed to be done, so we have a good outlook of what the game should look like from here onwards.

So like July-August.

 

[LancerStaff]

So... Where's MK at right now? I've been hearing opinions ranging from just outside top 5 to not even being top 25.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Mega has better (in my opinion, which values air accel a lot) mobility. And is significantly heavier, which is a godsend when your deaths are all uairs near the top

You forgot that TL also has very high air accel, a fast running speed, and a good walk too. Megaman does have better aerial mobility but overall I would give mobility to TL. I will give you weight though,a high weight along with a fast falling speed helps you against Bayo while Toon Links floaty midweight status gets him killed by Bayos latter much faster

So... Where's MK at right now? I've been hearing opinions ranging from just outside top 5 to not even being top 25.

He's still a strong character, he just isn't top tier anymore. He has a good combo game, great frame data, godlike edgeguarding, an amazing recovery, and still kills early with dash attack/downthrow/fthrow (with bad di) -> shuttle loop or fsmash. Imo 19 - 22ish, people need to actually lab him out a bit more instead of saying "oh no nevermind this characters dead lol"

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Back to the whole operational definitions thing; no point in discussing footsies if we can't first define the term.

I've always come to understand footsies as the in-between of the neutral and the advantaged/disadvantaged state. Here, the approaching has already been done, but still a commitment is yet to be made by either player, as they play just outside of each others ideal ranges. I imagine good midrange characters such as mewtwo and swordies excel at footsies because of the respect they demand when in that state. The fact that the opposing marth has a relatively safe, relatively large hitbox that he can throw out forces you to respect his space and play his game.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So... Where's MK at right now? I've been hearing opinions ranging from just outside top 5 to not even being top 25.

People crazily overrate his nerfs. Even without his ladder combos, he could still play really good. Most of the time, MKLeo, Tyrant, and Ito averaged 1-2 of them per set, and probably could still have won without using it once. IMO he's 11th and almost top 10.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Back to the whole operational definitions thing; no point in discussing footsies if we can't first define the term.

I've always come to understand footsies as the in-between of the neutral and the advantaged/disadvantaged state. Here, the approaching has already been done, but still a commitment is yet to be made by either player, as they play just outside of each others ideal ranges. I imagine good midrange characters such as mewtwo and swordies excel at footsies because of the respect they demand when in that state. The fact that the opposing marth has a relatively safe, relatively large hitbox that he can throw out forces you to respect his space and play his game.

See, I thought footsies was just part of neutral, perhaps narrowly defined as the part where you're actually throwing out hitboxes and dodging the enemy's but no one's really committed or gotten punished too hard. Maybe a stray hit with no conversions but that's it.

 

[Pancracio17]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/dabuz18-201605111826982
Apparently there is a realiable way to get out of bayos combos with SDI up. provided she doesnt have a jump, and since she needs jump side b to catch follow ups this means bayo combos have been cut short big time. idk if fastfallers can do this though. I also think rage bayo makes this deadly but im not sure.

EDIT: pika, diddy, rosa and olimar were the ones tested fyi

 

[BunbUn129]

So... Where's MK at right now? I've been hearing opinions ranging from just outside top 5 to not even being top 25.

I don't think rating characters on top 5/10/15/20 is the best way to express their viability. The real question is are they top/high/mid tier.

To put things in context, the reason views on MK's viability after the patch vary so much in comparison to other nerfed top tiers is that he simply wasn't as well established as them. He wasn't firmly entrenched in the top tier in the manner of Sheik and ZSS.

1.1.5 MK is not a top 5/10 character or a top tier character, and no Wintermelon43 , people generally underrate Meta Knight's nerf. Sheik got hit the hardest in 1.1.5, but MK suffered the most. Sheik's play style revolved around her neutral game and that is mostly intact. Losing her 50/50 was a blow but not a fatal one, because it was never the main reason behind her success as a character. MK's success as a character hinged on that combo and he lost that option in most of his relevant match-ups. It seems people never fully understood how lethal that punish was. Losing a death combo that worked reliably on the entire cast was a massive blow no matter how optimistic you try to be.

MK fell much harder than Sheik, ZSS, Corrin, Bayonetta, and Cloud because his base tools and options simply were not as good as theirs. They're much more well-rounded than he is and were not overly centered on a single punish or move, so they didn't suffer as much despite receiving technically heavier nerfs.

MK is generally perceived as a high tier character, but I disagree. He is a mid tier character in theory and in his match-up spread. The only top/high-tier characters he beats are Villager, Rosalina, Ness and Luigi, and the former 2 are uncommon. The rest of his relevant match-ups are either even (Greninja, Ike, Corrin, Pikachu) or losing (Sheik, Ryu, ZSS, Fox, Diddy, Mario, Mewtwo, Sonic, Bayonetta, Cloud, and others I may forget).

He only stands as a outlier from other mid-tiers because he still has exceptional talent backing him. People put too much weight in results and placements and then conclude MK is a high or even top tier character.

 

[Y2Kay]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/dabuz18-201605111826982
Apparently there is a realiable way to get out of bayos combos with SDI up. provided she doesnt have a jump, and since she needs jump side b to catch follow ups this means bayo combos have been cut short big time. idk if fastfallers can do this though. I also think rage bayo makes this deadly but im not sure.

I know this is an important tech, but all I'm thinking about is that thick bear on Dabuz's face >_>

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Metaknight...is in a weird place right now and I can only see this getting worse.

Metaknight mains are gonna have to start accepting that their boy got luigi'd. Hard.

What did metaknight have going for him besides his win condition? All of his tools were mid tier material in 1.1.4 and arguably still are. His mobility is good and he has properties of "rushdown" in the sense that he has good options out of dash, amazing spotdodge and run to shield. But what reward does he get for landing a dash attack now? His raw damage output is pathetically low, but other characters that suffer this like Sheik compensate by stringing moves together and racking up damage well. What does MK get by winning interactions? Stage control? His new win condition is getting gimps and hard fsmash reads, and to be fair his kill power is still great. The question is, do his damage racking potential and neutral allow him to put himself in positions where he can consistently kill? I don't think so, not to the extent that a high tier should be able to. People who want good rushdown potential have infinitely better picks, even falcon arguably takes MK's strengths and does so much more with them. If you want kill power and punishing potential, mewtwo, zss, ryu...are all objectively better in that regard.

#middleknight1.1.XX

 

[Wintermelon43]

I don't think rating characters on top 5/10/15/20 is the best way to express their viability. The real question is are they top/high/mid tier.

To put things in context, the reason views on MK's viability after the patch vary so much in comparison to other nerfed top tiers is that he simply wasn't as well established as them. He wasn't firmly entrenched in the top tier in the manner of Sheik and ZSS.

1.1.5 MK is not a top 5/10 character or a top tier character, and no Wintermelon43 , people generally underrate Meta Knight's nerf. Sheik got hit the hardest in 1.1.5, but MK suffered the most. Sheik's play style revolved around her neutral game and that is mostly intact. Losing her 50/50 was a blow but not a fatal one, because it was never the main reason behind her success as a character. MK's success as a character hinged on that combo and he lost that option in most of his relevant match-ups. It seems people never fully understood how lethal that punish was. Losing a death combo that worked reliably on the entire cast was a massive blow no matter how optimistic you try to be.

MK fell much harder than Sheik, ZSS, Corrin, Bayonetta, and Cloud because his base tools and options simply were not as good as theirs. They're much more well-rounded than he is and were not overly centered on a single punish or move, so they didn't suffer as much despite receiving technically heavier nerfs.

MK is generally perceived as a high tier character, but I disagree. He is a mid tier character in theory and in his match-up spread. The only top/high-tier characters he beats are Villager, Rosalina, Ness and Luigi, and the former 2 are uncommon. The rest of his relevant match-ups are either even (Greninja, Ike, Corrin, Pikachu) or losing (Sheik, Ryu, ZSS, Fox, Diddy, Mario, Mewtwo, Sonic, Bayonetta, Cloud, and others I may forget).

He only stands as a outlier from other mid-tiers because he still has exceptional talent backing him. People put too much weight in results and placements and then conclude MK is a high or even top tier character.

I'm assuming you use the 4br tiering for tier lists, in which case I would put him as high tier, if you want that used.

He DEFITENLY fell way more than the others nerfed characters and it turned out the ladder was more important than we thought, but he still has other good options. Him losing his bad Sheik matchup due to her nerfs is well too.

imo he still beats Ike and probably Corrin slightly, and he probably goes even or beats Mewtwo too. I highly doubt he loses to some of those others top tiers too but whatever.

 

[bc1910]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/dabuz18-201605111826982
Apparently there is a realiable way to get out of bayos combos with SDI up. provided she doesnt have a jump, and since she needs jump side b to catch follow ups this means bayo combos have been cut short big time. idk if fastfallers can do this though. I also think rage bayo makes this deadly but im not sure.

Greninja can Shadow Sneak out of anything involving Up B 2 and can't be punished (unlike with ABK where SS is a 50/50 escape option) so he's safe from these combos anyway. I don't know about other fast fallers though.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't think rating characters on top 5/10/15/20 is the best way to express their viability. The real question is are they top/high/mid tier.

To put things in context, the reason views on MK's viability after the patch vary so much in comparison to other nerfed top tiers is that he simply wasn't as well established as them. He wasn't firmly entrenched in the top tier in the manner of Sheik and ZSS.

1.1.5 MK is not a top 5/10 character or a top tier character, and no Wintermelon43 , people generally underrate Meta Knight's nerf. Sheik got hit the hardest in 1.1.5, but MK suffered the most. Sheik's play style revolved around her neutral game and that is mostly intact. Losing her 50/50 was a blow but not a fatal one, because it was never the main reason behind her success as a character. MK's success as a character hinged on that combo and he lost that option in most of his relevant match-ups. It seems people never fully understood how lethal that punish was. Losing a death combo that worked reliably on the entire cast was a massive blow no matter how optimistic you try to be.

MK fell much harder than Sheik, ZSS, Corrin, Bayonetta, and Cloud because his base tools and options simply were not as good as theirs. They're much more well-rounded than he is and were not overly centered on a single punish or move, so they didn't suffer as much despite receiving technically heavier nerfs.

MK is generally perceived as a high tier character, but I disagree. He is a mid tier character in theory and in his match-up spread. He only stands as a outlier from other mid-tiers because he still has exceptional talent backing him. People put too much weight in results and placements and then conclude MK is a high or even top tier character.

Whatever works... Though I don't think there's really a proper definition of mid tier so it's kind of a moot point. After Sheik and ZSS's nerfs I've seen people either keep top tier as a top 3, or broaden it to include characters like Fox and then bring mid tiers into high tier. Right now I find it easier to just use numbers because top, mid and high tier can mean just about anything.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I keep seeing "footsies" and I know what they are, but I think people have different definitions of it.

What is your definition of "footsies?"

 

[Illuminose]

Please don't underrate Meta Knight. The character is still damn good. His matchup spread is not bad and I'm not sure where this notion is coming from either. He loses to Diddy, Sheik, Ryu, Mario, maybe 1 more...where's the extensive list. He loses fewer matchups than ZSS or Ryu lol. Cut the hypberole; MK still has good matchup spread and he still has many of the tools that made him good in the first place. The worst top MK at the combos is placing the best after the patch, which isn't a coincidence. MK still has combos, he still has his really good edgeguarding, he still has great mixups and decent neutral options. Leo is still placing just as well in Mexico. Some MK mains were hit harder than others, but MK was not just a one-dimensional combo machine. This exaggeration and lamentation of Meta Knight as a 'mid tier' or 'barely scraping high tier' is hilarious. He was a legitimate contender for top 3 in the game before the patch. The character is still in the #10-15 range because you aren't a top 3 contender just with one limited percent death combo (Bayo's death combo percent is like 0-80, which is kinda the difference here) -- you have to possess real options and tools to succeed in a harsh top tier climate.