Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Ulevo]

Having a quick dash to shield is obviously better, but there doesn't seem to be any correlation between viability and how good your dash to shield is.

I am sure if you accounted for the options out of the initial dash, as well as the length of the dash distance wise, and thus how far along the stage your commitment is, you would be more likely to find said correlation.

 

[sedrf]

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Do you feel people use results too much to judge how good or bad a character is?

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Just thought I'd share my thoughts on who I believe the current top 10 in the meta are and who they lose to (degree of loss not given, could mean a slight advantage or heavy advantage). Feel free to disagree or ask my justifications if you want.

1. Bayo (loses to no one, evenish with Rosa/Diddy/Sheik/Sonic/few zoners)

2. Rosa (loses to Cloud/MK/ZSS/some swordies)

3. Diddy (loses to Rosa/Mario/Fox/Luigi)

4. Sheik (loses to Diddy/Mario/Lucario?)

5. ZSS (loses to Bayo/Diddy/Greninja?)

6. Fox (loses to Bayo/Rosa/Sheik/Mario/Cloud/Luigi/Ryu?/Kirby?)

7. Mario (loses to Bayo/Rosa/Cloud/Luigi?)

8. Cloud (loses to Bayo/Diddy/Sheik)

9. Sonic (loses to Rosa/Fox/Cloud/Lucario)

10. Ryu (loses to Bayo/Sonic/Pikachu/some zoners)


This game has pretty good balance when each and every character in top 10 is scary. Fox is kinda the odd man out among the top tiers with a bunch of bad/suspect MUs, but yet he still does very well results wise and doesn't lose any matchups that hard.

I disagree with Bayo entirely, she does have multiple losing MUs and people need to actually realize that instead of just saying "bayo op"
Ryu for instance has a grounded moveset that destroys her and his kill power is actually consistent. Combine that with his equally devastating combo game, overall better neutral, and his much better frame data and it just feels like it leans more and more into Ryu's favor.

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Do you feel people use results too much to judge how good or bad a character is?

yes

Each time somebody tell us "DUDE! PRESS SHIELD LMAO! 1!" I lose some I.Q point.

people are human. Your opponent is human. Your opponent isn't stupid.

God. It's remind me of when you said Roy f-smash was overrated when in practice it's either you get f-smashed or you get combo'ed.

EDIT: Also using smash attack to say if a character is overated or not.

Same but not same
Some fsmashes you are able to react too including Corrin's fsmash being f18. Something a lot of people don't take into consideration when considering safety is whether or not you're able to react to a move and just power shield it, I wouldn't call Corrin's fsmash safe at any distance because I can just powershield -> dash grab -> upthrow -> followup

 

[Rizen]

Do you feel people use results too much to judge how good or bad a character is?

I'd say people use results too selectively. Joe Middletier or Jane Lowtier places top 8 at a regional and a clamor starts about them being underrated and just needing more representation. Consistent results at high levels are the way to judge viability.

 

[Luco]

Interesting little data collection people might want to see. Be aware, 206* is a typo and it's meant to be 260+.

https://twitter.com/EtikaPopsicle/status/729883179872456705

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Ryo beat K9 using Ike just now 3-1. He's gonna fight Void next. That'll be 3 Sheiks in a row. feelsbadman

Here's the stream: https://www.twitch.tv/2ggaming

EDIT: And Void takes it 3-1.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

And Void SDs last stock at 0 good job void

This makes me wonder though, who is the second best anime swordsman? Its obvious that Cloud is first but whos the second?

 

[Game7a1]

Interesting little data collection people might want to see. Be aware, 206* is a typo and it's meant to be 260+.

https://twitter.com/EtikaPopsicle/status/729883179872456705

Let me expand on this a little bit. I feel as if 260 is a bit too strict, so I set the barrier at 250 since some tournaments cap at 256. (even though looking at the responses on twitter, he did want to do 200+; I think 250 is a good cutoff for the amount of players competing). Tried to do as much research as I could when it's late.

Spoiler: Image

The only thing that changed was that Robin, Corrin, and Duck Hunt were added to the picture. Of the 58 characters, 28 of them have gotten in top 8 in 250+ man tournaments. Almost half.

 

[Charoite]

Results are used to determine if the potential of a character is matched with his theory, that is why Bayonetta lack of results at the highest level of play are pointed when people debate if she is really the undisputed number one and "broken" character that many claim she to be, not only that if she is considered to be banned then results need to back that, soft ban or not, her results in 3 months are not better that pre-patch sheik.

 

[Das Koopa]

i think i might extend my project a bit

I'm already going to create unweighted results (e.g. secondaries get the same value as primaries) but I might take a bunch of American and European tournies and try and find the difference in how Bayonetta does in America and Europe.

bonus: Top 8 results thing (same system as the Top 16 one except it's 7th = 1, 5th = 2, 4th = 3, 3rd = 4, 2nd = 5, and 1st = 6, with it incrementally going up by 2 for each category.)

Spoiler

Bayonetta: 131.5
Diddy Kong: 116.5
Sheik: 106
Cloud: 91.5
Fox: 72.5
Zero Suit Samus: 72.5
Mario: 71.5
Sonic: 59.5
R.O.B: 46.5
Meta Knight: 42
Ness: 41
Mewtwo: 40.5
Rosalina: 37.5
Mega Man: 33
Donkey Kong: 33
Ryu: 29
Toon Link: 25.5
Luigi: 25
Captain Falcon: 24.5
Corrin: 23

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

I think some people are confusing "broken" with "best"
Like yeah Bayo may be broken, but that doesnt mean shes the best character in the game. Kirby in 64 was broken, but no he wasn't the best. ICs in Melee were broken, but no they weren't the best. Just like how Bayo is "broken" in Smash 4, it doesn't necessarily mean shes the best. It just means she has some stupid gimmick/tools that people need to play around, it doesn't mean that her overall kit is the strongest

 

[bc1910]

Interesting little data collection people might want to see. Be aware, 206* is a typo and it's meant to be 260+.

https://twitter.com/EtikaPopsicle/status/729883179872456705

This is a really important list I think. Everyone likes to get bogged down in smaller tourneys and big regionals, and this serves as a reminder of the characters who do and don't drop off at top level.

Could someone refresh my memory - when did DK get 2nd?

 

[KamikazePotato]

Two things: first, special thanks to Lavani for taking the screenshots that showed where Ike's fair hitboxes truly started and ended. I was able to update my hitbox maps with the new information, and even managed to estimate where the extra hitbox at the end was. It's in the album if anyone wants to check. With that, the hitbox maps for Ike's moves should be done.

Second: I decided to take a detour and try something else - making a .gif. We don't seem to have enough of those. This is what I came up with, using Ike's Nair as an example:

http://i.imgur.com/daHbJ0H.gifv

It shows the move at normal speed and 1/4 speed, using interpolated hitboxes. Let me know what you guys think, and if there's anything that could be improved on. Do you guys prefer image maps, or gifs? (I'll probably do both either way, just curious)

I would have done a full hitbox map of Rosalina next because I would have been interested in that, but she doesn't have hitbox data yet, so...any other suggestions? I don't feel like doing a full character map (it's a LOT of work), but if anyone has any specific moves on a character that they think are dumb or are just curious about, I'd be willing to take smaller requests. Looking at the boards, some top characters that we have access to hitbox data for include:

Bayonetta
Mewtwo
ZSS
Meta Knight
Toon Link
Greninja
Sheik
Captain Falcon
Cloud
Pikachu

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Two things: first, special thanks to Lavani for taking the screenshots that showed where Ike's fair hitboxes truly started and ended. I was able to update my hitbox maps with the new information, and even managed to estimate where the extra hitbox at the end was. It's in the album if anyone wants to check. With that, the hitbox maps for Ike's moves should be done.

Second: I decided to take a detour and try something else - making a .gif. We don't seem to have enough of those. This is what I came up with, using Ike's Nair as an example:

http://i.imgur.com/daHbJ0H.gifv

It shows the move at normal speed and 1/4 speed, using interpolated hitboxes. Let me know what you guys think, and if there's anything that could be improved on. Do you guys prefer image maps, or gifs? (I'll probably do both either way, just curious)

I would have done a full hitbox map of Rosalina next because I would have been interested in that, but she doesn't have hitbox data yet, so...any other suggestions? I don't feel like doing a full character map (it's a LOT of work), but if anyone has any specific moves on a character that they think are dumb or are just curious about, I'd be willing to take smaller requests. Looking at the boards, some top characters that we have access to hitbox data for include:

Bayonetta
Mewtwo
ZSS
Meta Knight
Toon Link
Greninja
Sheik
Captain Falcon
Cloud
Pikachu

I kinda want either Bayo or Greninja
Trying to perfect my edgeguarding on her and want to see exactly how close I can get to her during WT/ABK
Greninja nair because the moves hitboxes are kinda weird to me

Also, does anyone have links to walking acceleration? Working on something and cant find it

 

[BunbUn129]

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Do you feel people use results too much to judge how good or bad a character is?

Yes, of course, they do.

They simply look at the character's final placements at tournaments and call it a day. That brings up another thing: people generally put too much weight on a character's placement at a tournament while overlooking important facts like the match-ups they encountered, the players they went up against, how well/poorly they did in the sets they won/lost, whether or not they used secondaries and to what extent, the character's and player's history and track record, match-up in/experience, which players were in attendance etc. It's why you see some who believe Meta Knight is still a top 10 character.

Saying character X got 1st at a tourney and 3-0'd everyone in attendance sounds a lot different than character X winning a tourney after being 3-0'd and sent into losers before going to game 5 in both sets of Grand Finals. Saying character X got 1st and nothing else doesn't give the whole picture. Note, I'm not hinting to anything that really happened, it's just an example.

For the example I know best, 1.1.5 MK has several good placements (1st at the Arena 2016, 2nd at Street Bros. 2, 3rd at Fresh Saga, 1st at MSM 42, etc.). High tier and potential top tier, right? But look past the placements: Tyrant got 6-stocked against Trela, when he beat him 3-2 pre-patch, and had to use his Sheik secondary vs Void. All of a sudden MK's 3rd spot at Fresh Saga is less convincing. Leo now often uses Cloud to get out of tough situations. Both these players could get similar and even better results before with solo MK, and now they're performing worse even with the aid of secondaries. Your views on a character can change drastically when you put their results into the context of theory, match-ups, and player skill.

This also relates to Mewtwo winning Pound 2016. It's an amazing placement, even more so when you mention that Abadango didn't drop a set and only used his secondary once (and not because he needed to). However, when you take into account that ZeRo, the player who usually wins such tournaments, was absent, and that Nairo got sent out early, along with general match-up inexperience against Mewtwo, then Mewtwo's win seems a bit less impressive (still very impressive though).

The problem with going off a purely results based approach is that it doesn't detach a character's own viability from the player skill behind them and all the other factors I mentioned.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

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Characters that have won major tournaments:

That's a bit more than you can count on one hand. And if you include Rosalina for winning Shot's Fired 2 [which *should* qualify due to how stacked it was] then you actually have more characters winning major tournaments than you can count on two hands.

 

[Das Koopa]

random question time

What do you guys think are the best/worst projectiles in the game? (Assuming no customs, 1111 setup)

Best:
-Needle
-Banana
-Lloid Rocket
-Gyro
-Paralyzer
-Shadow Ball
-Water Shuriken
-Bomb (Toon Link)
-Blaster (Fox)
-Palutena Bow

Worst:
-Shot Put
-Clown Cannon
-Blaster (Falco)
-Din's Fire
-Phantom Slash
-PK Flash
-Autoreticle
-Gale Strike

I've been playing around with the idea of a categorical list for them like I did with characters, but most fall into the "average/decent/good" category, making the more interesting subject "which ones are the best/worst". On that subject, is Shot Put used in a way that makes it similar to Gordo (e.g. as a practical trap move that works?) or is it as horrible and predictable and slow as it seems?

*PK Flash is probably the worst projectile overall. I don't think I've ever seen a professional Ness player use it, whereas I've at least seen Tweek use Clown Cannon once or twice off the ledge before.

Best projectile imo is either Banana or Needles.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

random question time

What do you guys think are the best/worst projectiles in the game? (Assuming no customs, 1111 setup)

Best:
-Needle
-Banana
-Lloid Rocket
-Gyro
-Paralyzer
-Shadow Ball
-Water Shuriken
-Bomb (Toon Link)
-Blaster (Fox)
-Palutena Bow

Worst:
-Shot Put
-Clown Cannon
-Blaster (Falco)
-Bomb (Samus)
-Din's Fire
-Phantom Slash
-PK Flash
-Autoreticle
-Gale Strike

I've been playing around with the idea of a categorical list for them like I did with characters, but most fall into the "average/decent/good" category, making the more interesting subject "which ones are the best/worst". On that subject, is Shot Put used in a way that makes it similar to Gordo (e.g. as a practical trap move that works?) or is it as horrible and predictable and slow as it seems?

*PK Flash is probably the worst projectile overall. I don't think I've ever seen a professional Ness player use it, whereas I've at least seen Tweek use Clown Cannon once or twice off the ledge before.

Best projectile imo is either Banana or Needles.

samus bomb is great what are you talking about? sets up for edgeguards, great for keeping people out, helps recovery, etc

 

[Das Koopa]

samus bomb is great what are you talking about? sets up for edgeguards, great for keeping people out, helps recovery, everything about it is good

Hm, must've not seen enough Samus gameplay - I was under the impression that it was a terrible move. Sorry for the mistake.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If Paralyzer is one of the best Projectiles I'd probably add ZSS dsmash as well.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Hm, must've not seen enough Samus gameplay - I was under the impression that it was a terrible move. Sorry for the mistake.

Ahh, that's fine don't worry. She's an underused character so I understand
I'm also inclined to say the Can, Limit Blade Beam, Links Bombs, Gunners Fair, and Yoshis eggs are all great too

 

[Wintermelon43]

random question time

What do you guys think are the best/worst projectiles in the game? (Assuming no customs, 1111 setup)

Best:
-Needle
-Banana
-Lloid Rocket
-Gyro
-Paralyzer
-Shadow Ball
-Water Shuriken
-Bomb (Toon Link)
-Blaster (Fox)
-Palutena Bow

Worst:
-Shot Put
-Clown Cannon
-Blaster (Falco)
-Din's Fire
-Phantom Slash
-PK Flash
-Autoreticle
-Gale Strike

I've been playing around with the idea of a categorical list for them like I did with characters, but most fall into the "average/decent/good" category, making the more interesting subject "which ones are the best/worst". On that subject, is Shot Put used in a way that makes it similar to Gordo (e.g. as a practical trap move that works?) or is it as horrible and predictable and slow as it seems?

*PK Flash is probably the worst projectile overall. I don't think I've ever seen a professional Ness player use it, whereas I've at least seen Tweek use Clown Cannon once or twice off the ledge before.

Best projectile imo is either Banana or Needles.

I think I remember FOW used it uncharged once and actually hit with it at Genesis (I forget who he used it on though). But yea, PK Flash is probably the worst along with clown cannon.

How come Blaster is put at best? It's hard to get damage with it due to there being no hitstun, so it is kinda situational.

Edit: Yoshi's egg and Duck Hunt's can should be on there too, espicially Yoshi's eggs

 

[HoSmash4]

Duck Hunt Can is extremely good.
I'd put Banana as the best projectile by a long shot. The amount of hitstun it has and the fact it can be done out of shield means it is frankly absurd and pretty damn oppressive.

 

[Konneh]

I'd actually put Bayonetta's Bullet Arts way up there, probably not on #1, but I believe they're extremely useful and frankly still underutilised. Bullet Climax is really good, too. I was surprised to see neither of those on Koopas list.
I can't agree on Needles being a contender for #1 after Patch 1.1.5, especially since Banana is bananas.

 

[Megamang]

Pellets! It should say something that they pretty much invalidate the banana in neutral (its still a deadly landing trap, but him chucking it at you without leading in with something is very unlikely to hit if you are up on your pellet game).

Metal blade? Downwards thrown with the b input, it can lead to kill confirms starting ~80% or earlier with rage. OOS its a great option, dealing 5 to 15 percent based on weight and hitbox size. With SGT it confirms horizontally into literally every move Megaman has, though this is very committal (but not to unsafe on block actually). Finally, Zdropped it can gimp, do ridiculous shield damage, and combo into usmash or something like zdrop -bair to pick it up - throw blade after them for a solid 30%+

Then there is air shooter. Totally ruins big bodies, is really safe on block against most characters and especially against tall ones such as Rosa and Bayo. Does stupid damage, a single hit early on can confirm 50%+. Not much to say here except it is a projectile that doesn't clank with dairs, so unless they have something like gpull or cape it will beat anything head on.

Leaf shield... solid gimping tool, pressures people hanging on the ledge with 0 commitment, can be used in tandem with metal blade for higher pressure (metal blade + leaf shield + dashgrab is a solid gameplan against some characters). It plows through a vast majority of projectiles as well, well beyond its individual damage for some reason.


Idk about these as individuals, but together they make one of the best projectile walls you could hope for. You have interactions like your pellet can cancel out a metal blade, so the enemy stealing your blade means nothing really... crash bomber is easily negated in neutral but leads to some gnarly situations/frametraps/block pressure... crash bomber stick makes fsmash safe and can break shields, a shoryuken literally 95% as powerful as Ryu's with a projectile confirming into it... We talk about execution of gameplans, Megaman is projectiles; the character and it works pretty damn well, especially against relevant threats.


And if dsmash from ZSS counts, dair from mega should count. Its meh in some MUs, but really is powerful in others.

 

[UberMadman]

I'd actually put Bayonetta's Bullet Arts way up there, probably not on #1, but I believe they're extremely useful and frankly still underutilised.

The problem is, (if we're arguing purely based off of semantics here,) Bullet Arts technically aren't projectiles, they're just really long disjoints. This means that they don't have the properties that normal projectiles have: they can't be reflected, ignore Link's shield, can't be pocketed by Villager, and can even lead to jank like this:

I guess they could still be counted on the list since they still serve a similar function to projectiles, but I figured I'd use the opportunity to drop a cool knowledge bomb. That said, I wouldn't personally put them on the best projectile list because the Bullet Arts versions of her moves have the same endlag as her normal version and of course the bullets themselves deal no hitstun, so you're oftentimes just extending your window for potential punishment and dropping the opportunity for continued offensive pressure in return for a little chip damage. The only Bullet Arts attacks I would consider really useful are the ones that actually extend the hitbox of her regular attack as well, such as nair and uair.

I will agree with you on Bullet Climax however; that move is quite underutilized as a way to deter short hop pressure from the opponents and is probably one of the tools current Bayonettas are looking over the most in an attempt to maximize her punish game over her neutral.

 

[Teshie U]

random question time

What do you guys think are the best/worst projectiles in the game? (Assuming no customs, 1111 setup)

Best:
-Needle
-Banana
-Lloid Rocket
-Gyro
-Paralyzer
-Shadow Ball
-Water Shuriken
-Bomb (Toon Link)
-Blaster (Fox)
-Palutena Bow

Worst:
-Shot Put
-Clown Cannon
-Blaster (Falco)
-Din's Fire
-Phantom Slash
-PK Flash
-Autoreticle
-Gale Strike

I've been playing around with the idea of a categorical list for them like I did with characters, but most fall into the "average/decent/good" category, making the more interesting subject "which ones are the best/worst". On that subject, is Shot Put used in a way that makes it similar to Gordo (e.g. as a practical trap move that works?) or is it as horrible and predictable and slow as it seems?

*PK Flash is probably the worst projectile overall. I don't think I've ever seen a professional Ness player use it, whereas I've at least seen Tweek use Clown Cannon once or twice off the ledge before.

Best projectile imo is either Banana or Needles.

ZSS dsmash is not a projectile.

Din's fire and Clown cannon are nearly impossible to hit someone with, even when edgeguarding a linear recovery.

I'd say shot put and gale strike are not being given a fair shake here. I'd say they both have specific utility that puts them a tier above Falco laser (which is above all the other "worst"). Gale strike tears through most other projectiles and is also a windbox. Shot Put beats alot of projectiles, can kill and the angle makes it useful for edgeguarding and hitting at angles most projectiles can't.

Pretty much all items are godlike because glide tossing, z dropping and OoS punishing.

 

[outfoxd]

Second the Can. There's a reason it's the crux of DHs gameplan. Defense, offense, option control, edgeguarding, mild puppeteer qualities. If it killed under 150% people would be pissed.

 

[Smog Frog]

does aura sphere charge count as a "projectile"?

 

[Kaiduru Zeta]

random question time

What do you guys think are the best/worst projectiles in the game? (Assuming no customs, 1111 setup)

Best:
-Needle
-Banana
-Lloid Rocket
-Gyro
-Paralyzer
-Shadow Ball
-Water Shuriken
-Bomb (Toon Link)
-Blaster (Fox)
-Palutena Bow

Worst:
-Shot Put
-Clown Cannon
-Blaster (Falco)
-Din's Fire
-Phantom Slash
-PK Flash
-Autoreticle
-Gale Strike

I've been playing around with the idea of a categorical list for them like I did with characters, but most fall into the "average/decent/good" category, making the more interesting subject "which ones are the best/worst". On that subject, is Shot Put used in a way that makes it similar to Gordo (e.g. as a practical trap move that works?) or is it as horrible and predictable and slow as it seems?

*PK Flash is probably the worst projectile overall. I don't think I've ever seen a professional Ness player use it, whereas I've at least seen Tweek use Clown Cannon once or twice off the ledge before.

Best projectile imo is either Banana or Needles.

I'd add Sun Salutation or Header to one of the best projectiles. Both have great uses with Header having so many ways you can use it. It can also gimp pretty well. SS is really good since it's really fast and triumphs a lot of projectiles which is really nice for it. Also it heals Wii Fit Trainer 2%. That's pretty darn good since a projectile actually heals a character just by using it. Best has to definitely be Banana or Needles definitely.

 

[Lag Chan]

Why we dissing Gale Strike? Just cause it has slow start up? It does okay damage, has a windbox for gimping/stopping approaches and destroys projectiles to help Swordfighter's approach/stop them from getting zoned out.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Hm, must've not seen enough Samus gameplay - I was under the impression that it was a terrible move. Sorry for the mistake.

You can't be blamed, at first glance they are terrible but then with much meta they become significant tools.
I recently posted this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtcSc0qPlv0
You can see some additional uses of their very high level of priority here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yo58H3uoWE#t=85
As well the dirty bomb for shield breaks.

All in all bombs are quite good, not melee levels of good, but still respectable. Homing missile is the worst projectile in the game bar none however, it may be the worst *move* in the game.
Anything can cut it out of the air, literally anything, 60 frames of endlag - most projectiles are 45 so you get 2 for every 3 of your opponent, 20 frames of startup, extends hurtbox, unsafe on shield, unsafe on HIT, doesn't home worth a damn. combo window is tight and very distance specific and the list goes on. They are literally raw garbage. I would quite casually skip discussion and move directly to violence against whomever programmed them.

 

[Smog Frog]

i honestly dont know how people can keep saying that stuff like dins fire or homing missiles are the worst moves in the game when **** like aerials exist

 

[ぱみゅ]

They are listing worst PROJECTILES, not worst moves.

Anyway, this topic might leads us nowhere, everyone will want to chime in and say their characters' projectiles are top-10 because reasons, and most people will fight for moves not being bottom 10 despite being clearly worse than the average.

I mean, sure, let's give it a shot (ha, puns), but I personally don't have high hopes for this particular discussion.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

*frantically thinks of something to discuss other than bayonetta, greninja, the next hypothetical patch, character balance circlejerking, or pokemon sun & moon*

Yoshi. He's starting to get results here and there which I think is fair enough to at least warrant some smashboards talk. Thoughts on the character? I saw Yikarur do some pretty scary stuff with yoshi in a set against some zss two weeks ago on twitch. He seems like he has some solid tools but has trouble killing, oh and he's pretty damn heavy.

 

[Jamurai]

I watched @Yikarur obliterate a decent Bayo (Jezo) in person at Albion. It was almost a double 3-stock iirc. If you read this, do you think Yoshi copes well in the matchup, and if so, what about it is partcularly good for Yoshi? Not to draw conclusions off one set of course, but I know Jezo is pretty good first-hand; he wins most monthlies in Portsmouth somewhat emphatically and finished 25th last weekend. He does know the Yoshi MU as well.

Speaking of obliteration, I'm sure glad my doubles pools set vs. cyve & Yika wasn't streamed...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ZSS dsmash is not a projectile.

It is.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Let me expand on this a little bit. I feel as if 260 is a bit too strict, so I set the barrier at 250 since some tournaments cap at 256. (even though looking at the responses on twitter, he did want to do 200+; I think 250 is a good cutoff for the amount of players competing). Tried to do as much research as I could when it's late.

Spoiler: Image

The only thing that changed was that Robin, Corrin, and Duck Hunt were added to the picture. Of the 58 characters, 28 of them have gotten in top 8 in 250+ man tournaments. Almost half.

Can you reupload these to imgur or something? My work internet doesn't like whatever site you're using.

random question time

What do you guys think are the best/worst projectiles in the game? (Assuming no customs, 1111 setup)

Best:
-Needle
-Banana
-Lloid Rocket
-Gyro
-Paralyzer
-Shadow Ball
-Water Shuriken
-Bomb (Toon Link)
-Blaster (Fox)
-Palutena Bow

Worst:
-Shot Put
-Clown Cannon
-Blaster (Falco)
-Din's Fire
-Phantom Slash
-PK Flash
-Autoreticle
-Gale Strike

I've been playing around with the idea of a categorical list for them like I did with characters, but most fall into the "average/decent/good" category, making the more interesting subject "which ones are the best/worst". On that subject, is Shot Put used in a way that makes it similar to Gordo (e.g. as a practical trap move that works?) or is it as horrible and predictable and slow as it seems?

*PK Flash is probably the worst projectile overall. I don't think I've ever seen a professional Ness player use it, whereas I've at least seen Tweek use Clown Cannon once or twice off the ledge before.

Best projectile imo is either Banana or Needles.

Does Luma count as a projectile? Probably not...

I watched @Yikarur obliterate a decent Bayo (Jezo) in person at Albion. It was almost a double 3-stock iirc. If you read this, do you think Yoshi copes well in the matchup, and if so, what about it is partcularly good for Yoshi? Not to draw conclusions off one set of course, but I know Jezo is pretty good first-hand; he wins most monthlies in Portsmouth somewhat emphatically and finished 25th last weekend. He does know the Yoshi MU as well.

Speaking of obliteration, I'm sure glad my doubles pools set vs. cyve & Yika wasn't streamed...

I know the CPU Yoshi is annoyingly good at avoiding stuff with his double jump but that's about it. (Ah, the joys of not having a sparring partner...)

 

[ARISTOS]

random question time

What do you guys think are the best/worst projectiles in the game? (Assuming no customs, 1111 setup)

Best:
-Needle
-Banana
-Lloid Rocket
-Gyro
-Paralyzer
-Shadow Ball
-Water Shuriken
-Bomb (Toon Link)
-Blaster (Fox)
-Palutena Bow

Worst:
-Shot Put
-Clown Cannon
-Blaster (Falco)
-Din's Fire
-Phantom Slash
-PK Flash
-Autoreticle
-Gale Strike

I've been playing around with the idea of a categorical list for them like I did with characters, but most fall into the "average/decent/good" category, making the more interesting subject "which ones are the best/worst". On that subject, is Shot Put used in a way that makes it similar to Gordo (e.g. as a practical trap move that works?) or is it as horrible and predictable and slow as it seems?

*PK Flash is probably the worst projectile overall. I don't think I've ever seen a professional Ness player use it, whereas I've at least seen Tweek use Clown Cannon once or twice off the ledge before.

Best projectile imo is either Banana or Needles.

I think we've had part of this convo before.

Nevertheless, I would argue that Sun Salutation, Arc Thunder, and Metal Blade should be added (I would take out Blaster and Palutena Bow though)

 

[ぱみゅ]

Arcthunder alone is a fantastic projectile.
Too bad it needs to be charged, leaving the negatives:
-While Elthunder is not bad, it doesn't live up to be top tier. Thunder is bad.
-Robin's OOS options are terrible and Cancelling in the air is no good either, leaving charge as a huge commitment.
-Getting hit while charging resets the gauge.
-There is the risk (although not relevant unless you are not paying attention) of charging too much and getting Thoron, a good kill move but not too useful in neutral.