Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[BunbUn129]

I'm sorry but I cannot see a character with as many weaknesses as Bayonetta as the best character in the game. She is a strong character but she reminds me more of how strong jigglypuff was in melee. Not the best but an extremely potent character.
On the other hand I can see either Sheik or Diddy as the best characters, arguably the best 2 neutrals in the game with not many issues besides actually killing and even then they both have amazing edgeguarding and are able to kill well below 100 with a good read

What are these "weaknesses" that are so glaring as to deny Bayonetta being a contender for #1? Bad start-up? Nope, her main combo starter is a frame 4 move. Susceptibility to projectile camping? Only certain characters can exploit this. Slow dodges? Bat Within, and you still have to read her air dodges in order to punish their ending lag. Poor survivability? Bat Within allows her to escape a lot of otherwise guaranteed combos, making it harder to rack up damage and KO confirm on her compared to other fast fallers. And to top that off she's nigh on impossible to touch offstage. Bayonetta has weaknesses, like every character, but the risk-reward is always heavily skewed in her favor.

I'm not trying to argue she is the unquestionable best character, but you have to acknowledge she has a very strong claim to it. And Diddy doesn't have notable trouble killing since the crux of his neutral game allows him to confirm into his KO moves.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Bat within isn't a reliable air dodge every time though

 

[BunbUn129]

Bat within isn't a reliable air dodge every time though

I know, but it's still something that has to be taken into account.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

What are these "weaknesses" that are so glaring as to deny Bayonetta being a contender for #1? Bad start-up? Nope, her main combo starter is a frame 4 move. Susceptibility to projectile camping? Only certain characters can exploit this. Slow dodges? Bat Within, and you still have to read her air dodges in order to punish their ending lag. Poor survivability? Bat Within allows her to escape a lot of otherwise guaranteed combos, making it harder to rack up damage and KO confirm on her compared to other fast fallers. And to top that off she's nigh on impossible to touch offstage. Bayonetta has weaknesses, like every character, but the risk-reward is always heavily skewed in her favor.

I'm not trying to argue she is the unquestionable best character, but you have to acknowledge she has a very strong claim to it. And Diddy doesn't have notable trouble killing since the crux of his neutral game allows him to confirm into his KO moves.

Poor survivability is one. Her low weight gets her killed early and her fast falling speed and tall model makes her easy to combo. Also despite having a long recovery, it is rather slow much like Luigi's making her susceptible to edgeguarding especially from characters with disjoints.
Her bad startup is not fixed by Witch Twist, yes it does help, but that doesn't change the fact that her fastest normal is frame 7 and not safe on block. Witch Twist is frame 4 but she will still be punished on landing.
Her weakness to projectile camping is still an issue, especially when you consider every other top 5 candidate has a projectile that they can effectively camp her with. Overall her neutral is poor.
She also lacks safe kill options outside of fthrow ~180 and her ladder, and because players are just now starting to learn how to DI Bayo that might not even be a thing.

PS: Sorry if this is worded poorly, I'm super tired rn

 

[Rizen]

Poor survivability is one. Her low weight gets her killed early and her fast falling speed and tall model makes her easy to combo. Also despite having a long recovery, it is rather slow much like Luigi's making her susceptible to edgeguarding especially from characters with disjoints.
Her bad startup is not fixed by Witch Twist, yes it does help, but that doesn't change the fact that her fastest normal is frame 7 and not safe on block. Witch Twist is frame 4 but she will still be punished on landing.
Her weakness to projectile camping is still an issue, especially when you consider every other top 5 candidate has a projectile that they can effectively camp her with. Overall her neutral is poor.
She also lacks safe kill options outside of fthrow ~180 and her ladder, and because players are just now starting to learn how to DI Bayo that might not even be a thing.

PS: Sorry if this is worded poorly, I'm super tired rn

Who has a better recovery, safer OoS or better combos than Bayonetta?

 

[BunbUn129]

Weight is not the only factor in survivability. A character's disadvantage state matters as well, and Bayonetta's disadvantage is among the best in the game. Characters like Sheik and ZSS can be surprisingly difficult to KO if you don't have a reliable set-up, because you can't edge-guard them reliably or easily force them into an air dodge read situation or landing trap.
Unlike Luigi's recovery, Bayonetta's recovery moves have massive hitboxes. You simply can't contend with her offstage if your character isn't a sword-wielder.
Witch Twist isn't the most unsafe move; she can side b away and you often won't be able to get to her fast enough for a hard punish. Considering how much reward she can get off a single up b, the risk-reward is in her favor if she throws it out.

Bayonetta's neutral isn't poor, it's just not spectacular. Bair and d tilt can be used to poke, ABK bounces away on shield, Up b isn't too risky to use, and it's a very good OoS punish, and she's helped by a 4-frame jumpsquat and high air acceleration. It's nothing special, but it will get the job done.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Who has a better recovery, safer OoS or better combos than Bayonetta?

There are plenty of better recoveries than Bayo's. Sheik, MK, Pika, ZSS, Greninja, Jigglypuff, sorta GW/Mewtwo, Lucario, Wario, Dedede sorta, Jiggs, the list goes on and on. If you can steal Bayonettas second jump she gets left with a mostly horizontal recovery
Bayo's only good OoS option is Witch Twist and even then that's going to get her punished. She can ABK away but then she's just going to have more lag and get punished harder.
Combos I cant really argue with, only character that can be on par is Ryu and maybe Greninja if they're good at foostool stuff.

Weight is not the only factor in survivability. A character's disadvantage state matters as well, and Bayonetta's disadvantage is among the best in the game. Characters like Sheik and ZSS can be surprisingly difficult to KO if you don't have a reliable set-up, because you can't edge-guard them reliably or easily force them into an air dodge read situation.
Unlike Luigi's recovery, Bayonetta's recovery moves have massive hitboxes. You simply can't contend with her offstage if your character isn't a sword-wielder.
Witch Twist isn't the most unsafe move; she can side b away and you often won't be able to get to her fast enough for a hard punish. Considering how much reward she can get off a single up b, the risk-reward is in her favor if she throws it out.

Bayonetta's neutral isn't poor, it's just not spectacular. Bair and d tilt can be used to poke, ABK bounces away on shield, Up b isn't too risky to use, and it's a very good OoS punish, and she's helped by a 4-frame jumpsquat and high air acceleration. It's nothing special, but it will get the job done.

The main reason Bayo's neutral is rather poor is because she doesn't have many options aside from a frame 12 bair that are actually safe. You shouldn't be shielding ABK either, you should be spot dodging it and then punishing the landing lag. She also has mobility issues so projectiles are going to hurt her a lot. Her up is fast but shes going to be punished for using it on a shield. Don't just run in and hope for things to work against Bayo like you can with other characters, when players start to realize this shes going to start losing even more.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Jigglypuff and dedede? You can challenge them for free.

Chill fam. You talking craziness. And stop talking like Bayo isn't a monster. She's maybe 5th at worst.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Jigglypuff and dedede? You can challenge them for free.

Chill fam. You talking craziness. And stop talking like Bayo isn't a monster. She's maybe 5th at worst.

Thats why I said sorta
Personally I have her as 5th, she may be a monster but considering all the other character contending for top 5 have much better neutrals and can effectively edgeguard her and exploit her very real weaknesses I am a bit iffy on her position

 

[PK Gaming]

Seeing as Bayonetta performed noticeably worse at this tourney than before, what did people do different to counter her?

The overall mindset changed from "this character is stupid, there's no point in learning the matchup" to "this character is stupid, but I have to learn the matchup if I want to win."

Dudes that win major **** lately:




Dudes that do not win major **** lately:

The smash bros scene is goddamn weird now. I love it.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also stop saying witch twist is punishable. There are a handful of characters that can punish her on block of they are frame perfect.

What about the lower and mid tiers? Wtf are they going to do vs this insane attack? Oh yeah.

Hold that L.

 

[BunbUn129]

It isn't easy to time the spot dodge against ABK because of the landing hitbox. Rolling away is actually a safer option to go for in that situation.

The amount of damage she gains from landing her up b is significantly higher than the amount of damage she'll take for it getting punished. You can and will punish Bayonetta, but she will often punish you harder in return.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Also stop saying witch twist is punishable. There are a handful of characters that can punish her on block of they are frame perfect.

What about the lower and mid tiers? Wtf are they going to do vs this insane attack? Oh yeah.

Hold that L.

*cough*iholdr*cough*

How to Punish WT:
step 1. Shield
step 2. Weight for her landing
step 3. Punish

If I can, I will always just play Marth for this MU
He can exploit every one of her weaknesses if you play defensively, aka holding shield

 

[Emblem Lord]

Wait for her lan......

Yo I'm done with this conversation.

 

[BunbUn129]

Anyone can exploit Bayonetta's weaknesses....if you play smart.

Meanwhile she doesn't have to outplay you to win convincingly.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Wait for her lan......

Yo I'm done with this conversation.

well whats she going to do? Side b away and deal with half a second of landing lag? Jump? Airdodge? Nair? Everything she can do is literally just shield and then punish.

 

[BunbUn129]

well whats she going to do? Side b away and deal with half a second of landing lag? Jump? Airdodge? Nair? Everything she can do is literally just shield and then punish.

Bull**** overload.

The world is in debate over the Bayonetta ban. Some regions have already gone forth with the ban.

And the answer all this time was "just shield and then punish."

Time to inform the Spaniards!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Half a second is 30 frames guys. Just fyi. So he is saying if Bayo does up b then dive kicks away, that's a free punish because she has 30 frames of landing recovery.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Half a second is 30 frames guys. Just fyi. So he is saying if Bayo does up b then dive kicks away, that's a free punish because she has 30 frames of landing recovery.

Aren't there normal aerials out there with more landing lag than that?

 

[Smog Frog]

see this is why everyone should have a pocket

30 frames is nothing for 1/3rd of fd for him

 

[Emblem Lord]

A few but the main point is, after she lands and you start running at her, who in the world besides sonic, cf, and little Mac could really punish that. Assuming she lands on the other side of the stage. Btw she has 26 frames of recovery. Just so we are clear. Witch twist to after burner kick is 26 frames after landing.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

A few but the main point is, after she lands and you start running at her, who in the world besides sonic, cf, and little Mac could really punish that. Assuming she lands on the other side of the stage. Btw she has 26 frames of recovery. Just so we are clear. Witch twist to after burner kick is 26 frames after landing.

well you see, she cannot cross FD with just one abk, only about half of FD. You also don't necessarily have to start a combo to punish her, you could just use a strong projectile and get a good 20% if its a charge projectile
why does my b8 always get taken so seriously im just having fun

off topic but is sonic a semi-clone of fox? The similarities between their aerials always had me wondering

 

[TriTails]

well you see, she cannot cross FD with just one abk, only about half of FD. You also don't necessarily have to start a combo to punish her, you could just use a strong projectile and get a good 20% if its a charge shot

Not everybody has an instant release 25% gigantic and killing projectile that goes the entire FD.

Sure, Samus and co. may be able to unish that. But the rest kinda just run for nothing if they decide to chase her.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Not everybody has an instant release 25% gigantic and killing projectile that goes the entire FD.

Sure, Samus and co. may be able to unish that. But the rest kinda just run for nothing if they decide to chase her.

well its obviously MU dependent, nothing applies to every character in the game
There's also a few moves i can think of that can be used to just cross fd and punish her immediatly, ikes quick draw if he starts charging immediately after seeing where shes going, charizard fire blitz

 

[Trifroze]

At least Falcon, ZSS, Sheik, Mac, Sonic and possibly Pikachu all have decent or better punishes that are between 29-32 frames from half an FD across. Not sure about projectiles but I'd imagine Samus' CS for instance isn't fast enough considering the startup in addition to the travel time.

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

At least Falcon, ZSS, Sheik, Mac, Sonic and possibly Pikachu all have decent or better punishes that are between 29-32 frames from half an FD across. Not sure about projectiles but I'd imagine Samus' CS for instance isn't fast enough considering the startup in addition to the travel time.

No mention of Fox? I'm also inclined to say Limit Cloud but I'm not entirely sure

 

[ArikadoSD]

"bayo isn't as good lol people arent automatically winning tournaments with her!!"

meanwhile she's carrying normally irrelevant players into top 16 of nationals or even allowing them to beat top players.

also, 3 bayonettas are in top 8 winner's side in Albion, a UK event with a few notable european talents

https://www.twitch.tv/ambler3isme

 

[Trifroze]

No mention of Fox? I'm also inclined to say Limit Cloud but I'm not entirely sure

Fox has neither the dash grab of Falcon or ZSS, or the dash attack of Little Mac. From what I recall his long distance punishes are a little bit slower despite his running speed being similar to those three.

 

[Scrubtorights]

Man I hope Mr R picks up Bayo so we can finally figure how well Bayo could really do in tourny setting so we can figure out if this endless bickering on both sides is even justified lol. Anyway flare blitz is an okay long distance punish for what it is. At least the first and last time it is used.(Frame 23 but FAF 102)

 

[BSP]

Pac-Man's key travels a bit faster than Sonic running at full speed. Don't forget about it when talking about lethal ranged punishes, although it is quite weak compared to the other charge B projectiles.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

well you see, she cannot cross FD with just one abk, only about half of FD. You also don't necessarily have to start a combo to punish her, you could just use a strong projectile and get a good 20% if its a charge projectile
why does my b8 always get taken so seriously im just having fun

off topic but is sonic a semi-clone of fox? The similarities between their aerials always had me wondering

Seeing this user go on about how much better d3 is at recovering than bayonetta and how garbage she is is starting to give me migranes

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People keep bringing up the "soft-ban" on Bayonetta but that is not entirely accurate. It's true that some [!] top level players refuse to play her but that's only a thing in the USA right now. Not everybody chooses to not pick her up "because she's too good" either, some of these top level players simply wouldn't do as well or better if they played her. Pointing out to the consensual nature of the soft-ban is not a valid argument. Japan doesn't have a soft-ban on Bayonetta and so far she hasn't proven to be a problem there at all. And you can't really argue that she doesn't have top players using her - Shu, Nyanko, 9B and Komorikiri are all arguably top 10 in Japan and 9B is the only one of these players who did better than he used to when he picked up Bayonetta. Shu and Nyanko, in fact, have started to do worse than they used to. Apart from the 4 japanese top level players mentioned above she still has Salem, tyroy and Pink Fresh repping her in the USA and some of the EU's high level players in Germany, France and Spain. Soft-ban or not, she does have the overall strongest playerbase of any character by quite a bit right now and she's not winning major tournaments outside of a local level.

If Bayonetta is supposedly the strongest character in the game then there's currently a lack of empirical evidence to support such a claim [which makes the soft-ban all the more pointless].

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

Seeing this user go on about how much better d3 is at recovering than bayonetta and how garbage she is is starting to give me migranes

i never once said she was garbage, just said she was extremely overrated. Also, I said dedede SORT OF if you actually read the post, mostly because if Bayonetta loses her second jump her recovery is almost entirely horizontal and very predictable. DDD also doesn't have to worry about dying at 40 offstage because Marth got a tipper bair.

 

[Mister M]

Uk major, Albion top 8 is starting if your interested
https://www.twitch.tv/datteamlive/mobile

We have
S1 (Ness)
Cyve (Diddy/Bayonetta/mewtwo...)
severe calamari (Bayonetta)
Ixis nasal (Sonic)
Magi (Bowser Jr)
Badr (Diddy/Bayonetta)
Ho (Bayonetta/Shiek/Rosalina/Rob)
Afro smash (Samus)

Edit: We have an infestation

 

[Pancracio17]

i never once said she was garbage, just said she was extremely overrated. Also, I said dedede SORT OF if you actually read the post, mostly because if Bayonetta loses her second jump her recovery is almost entirely horizontal and very predictable. DDD also doesn't have to worry about dying at 40 offstage because Marth got a tipper bair.

sure, if the character has a disjoint. But if they dont, bayo recover for free, no way to challenge her due to up b being huge, plus she has a wall cling and a wall jump. and even if they have a disjoint, i will probably still say she recovers better than DDD.

 

[my_T]

As far as Japan goes, didn't Komorikiri win a tournament with Bayo despite the fact that he has rarely used the character? 9B has also won at least one or more tournaments with Bayo as well. I can't confidently say Shu and Nyanko are on the same level as Komo, 9B, Earth, Choco, Ranai. There aren't any top level Bayos' in the US. If somebody like Zero, Mr R, Ally or someone of they're caliber were to pick up Bayo I think she would start winning tourneys; probably not alot but at least one or two.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Any match up people are looking forward to at EVO? I'm hoping for a rematch between Ranai and Zero because it was one of the best sets competitive Smash 4 has seen so far. I feel like Ranai would have beat Zero at Genesis if it weren't for Sheik's 50-50's because it felt like most of the matches came down to that. Now that Shiek doesn't have those and is lighter, I think the match up could be in Ranai's favor.

 

[Monete]

As far as Japan goes, didn't Komorikiri win a tournament with Bayo despite the fact that he has rarely used the character? 9B has also won at least one or more tournaments with Bayo as well. I can't confidently say Shu and Nyanko are on the same level as Komo, 9B, Earth, Choco, Ranai. There aren't any top level Bayos' in the US. If somebody like Zero, Mr R, Ally or someone of they're caliber were to pick up Bayo I think she would start winning tourneys; probably not alot but at least one or two.

9B didnt win any tourney with Ryu or any other character untill he mained Bayonetta.

 

[teddystalin]

Any match up people are looking forward to at EVO? I'm hoping for a rematch between Ranai and Zero because it was one of the best sets competitive Smash 4 has seen so far. I feel like Ranai would have beat Zero at Genesis if it weren't for Sheik's 50-50's because it felt like most of the matches came down to that. Now that Shiek doesn't have those and is lighter, I think the match up could be in Ranai's favor.

If Ranai keeps playing the way he's been recently (apparently he's distracted with SFV?), his odds of making it far enough to have a rematch seem slim. Hopefully he can get back into shape by the summer.

 

[my_T]

Yeah I know. The main point of my post was to say that there are no top level Bayos in the US where as Japan has 9B and Komo who have both won a tourney with Bayo.