• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

Status
Not open for further replies.

Nidtendofreak

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Messages
7,265
Location
Belleville, Ontario
NNID
TheNiddo
3DS FC
3668-7651-8940
Me thinks the talk about the tier list having Ryu drastically too high may stop now.

At least temporarily. I mean Ryu is dropping at least 1 still because Bayonetta. Probably 2 with Diddy. Beyond that though? idk, going to depend on how much work Trela puts in.

EDIT: Who got the closest to beating Trela this tournament?
 
Last edited:

Kofu

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
4,609
Location
The caffeine-free state
NNID
Atoyont
3DS FC
1521-4492-7542
Also can we talk about how :4palutena: just missed out on a top 8 finish?

With so many strong players in attendance I think that's really, really respectable.
A few of Palutena's moves are pretty iffy but the good ones are really good. FAir, BAir, grab/DThrow, and Jab are all pretty nuts. Dash Attack, NAir, and Warp deserve honorable mentions (maybe deserve to be with the others honestly).

Not sure where she should stand on the tier list but she's not bad.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Also can we talk about how :4palutena: just missed out on a top 8 finish?

With so many strong players in attendance I think that's really, really respectable.
Very same thing happened at FOW Saga. TLTC ended up getting 9th.

I've said for a while that Palutena gets too strong of results to be a bottom 5 or whatever label people wanna come up with, but this further solidifies it. I'm surprised at how well TLTC did against Tyrant first game of their set too.
 

FallofBrawl

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
631
No one doubted Ryu's punish game wasn't strong. And arguably, prepatch MK and ZSS had more lethal (but a less consistent) punishes.

We just haven't seen high level Ryu for a looong time until now. Surprised he hasn't been touched yet.
 
Last edited:

Ninety

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 4, 2015
Messages
350
So guys....who has the best punish game now?

Imma just sit here and let yall think it over.
Being smug about your main being proven underrated is a privilege we mid/low tier mains claim exclusive rights to ya know
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
Nah I get a freebie.

Some of you people thought Mario was better then Ryu for crying out loud.
 
Last edited:

Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
3,728
Location
Texas
NNID
NebulaMan
3DS FC
2938-7117-6800
I'll be counting New Fish and Rebirth VII alongside 2GGT Fresh. Anything on Sunday?
 

ARISTOS

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 1, 2016
Messages
741
Location
The Empire
Reminder

Nah we're just at that point where everyone is like "Yeah we beat Ryu" except not really at all lol.

Same thing happened with :4falcon: earlier
We should really be careful with how quickly we put characters down after a period of absence.
 

Illuminose

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2015
Messages
671
Different perspective: Trela's individual performance was very impressive, but it doesn't really prove anything we didn't already know about Ryu. He beat Ryo's Roy and Corrin (ok?), Aphro's Bayonetta (barely at that), FOW's Ness, Tyrant's MK, and Void's Sheik. So what did we find out? That Ryu beats Sheik when the Sheik doesn't camp at all? I'm impressed by Trela, but I'll be more impressed with Ryu as a whole when Trela is winning matchups like Mega Man, Rosa, Diddy, Villager, Sonic, and Pikachu that Ryu y'know...is seen to lose in...or simply beats a Sheik that actually camps.
 

juddy96

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
Messages
1,133
Location
Canada
Different perspective: Trela's individual performance was very impressive, but it doesn't really prove anything we didn't already know about Ryu. He beat Ryo's Roy and Corrin (ok?), Aphro's Bayonetta (barely at that), FOW's Ness, Tyrant's MK, and Void's Sheik. So what did we find out? That Ryu beats Sheik when the Sheik doesn't camp at all? I'm impressed by Trela, but I'll be more impressed with Ryu as a whole when Trela is winning matchups like Mega Man, Rosa, Diddy, Villager, Sonic, and Pikachu that Ryu y'know...is seen to lose in...or simply beats a Sheik that actually camps.
Trela has a good record against Diddy's iirc. DJ Fliphop is a strong Diddy in his city and he normally beats him. Also Venom has a decent record vs. SuperGirlKels' Sonic. I believe DJ Jack has taken sets off of Xaltis before too.
 

ZSaberLink

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 19, 2006
Messages
393
I guess I have to ask, does anyone feel like Shoryu kills just a bit too early? I'm pretty sure I saw it kill at 70, which is kind of insane, even with rage *shrugs*. Kind of reminds me of rage/aura lucario, which I'm not a huge fan of either.

Yeh as Void went in, I really was thinking "a different type of Sheik would have been needle camping by now".

Also to the Bayo argument, outside of Japan, I still don't feel like anywhere near the best players picked up Bayo anyways. Pink Fresh was decent before, but I don't think he was ever near winning a Xanadu before picking up Bayo. I know his Pit/Lucas had gotten beaten by both Scizor & Izaw's Links among other characters (Izaw beat him in Gen 3, Scizor I'm not sure where). Kind of like Cloud, Bayo is pretty easy to pick up at mid-level and has a LOT of reward for doing so.
 
Last edited:

Radical Larry

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
1,994
Location
The Pocket Dimension
NNID
Crimson-Vulcan
3DS FC
1822-3761-9326
I think Bayonetta's going to end up out of top 5 by the rate she's going; while she has the good theory and in-paper ability, her tournament results are truly speaking otherwise. I think she will become in the 6th spot very soon if people know how to fight her.

As for Ryu, I think he can be a solid 8th spot on the tier list, but this is due to his problematic MUs like what Illuminose Illuminose said, plus Bayonetta. That and the lack of representation and results are going to harm him, and I won't be surprised if Ryu drops below top 10 due to this. He's an extremely hard character to use overall and really needs dedication, like Trela.

With Cloud, seeing his most recent results at 2GGT, it's safe to say he's clearly not the best character in the game. The only Cloud to make it to top 32 and he is in the low end of it. That and people are starting to really get used to fighting him, so if he were the absolute best, he'd have results that are better than this.

Then we go down to Little Mac and Palutena; those two are obscure, but if they can make the results they made, then they'll likely stay out of bottom tier for now. And as for Samus and Link, there's no doubt that they're both middle tier, at least for Link's case. I'd like you to think; this is a super regional, a major with 338 total entrants. If you stack this with all of Link's results as of recently this year, Link just cannot be counted as a low tier at this point. There is something that Scizor is doing that is making Link a middle tier. In Samus's case, she seems to have gotten out of bottom tier and into middle tier at least. She has so much going for her and I'll be happy when the usage of her spikes high.
 

ArnoldPalmer

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2016
Messages
116
Honestly Ryu's punish game is AT LEAST on par with Bayonetta's
Yes her combos are easier but that doesn't make them better. Shes also much more punishable on landing because of the way her specials work, Ryu doesn't have to deal with that. They can both 0 - death you efficiently, but Ryu also has a semi-infinite with sourspot fair -> footstool that can also be followed up on with a jab reset for an even stronger punish. That's something you cannot say about Bayo.

Another thing to note about Ryu is his ability to break out of combos. Not one, not two, but THREE moves that can be used as combo breakers, two of which are frame 1. His frame data is also noticeably better than Bayo's in terms of startup and overall his aerial landing lag is less than Bayo's, something not even Sheik can say. Ryu has an insane amount of potential but because of how hard he is to play in comparison to the rest of the class a lot of players are scared of actually learning him. If he were to consistently be played at his full potential I can safely say he would be the best character in the game.
 

ARGHETH

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 9, 2015
Messages
1,395
With Cloud, seeing his most recent results at 2GGT, it's safe to say he's clearly not the best character in the game. The only Cloud to make it to top 32 and he is in the low end of it. That and people are starting to really get used to fighting him, so if he were the absolute best, he'd have results that are better than this.
:rolleyes:
Larry, you know there's a reason for this.
 

Radical Larry

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
1,994
Location
The Pocket Dimension
NNID
Crimson-Vulcan
3DS FC
1822-3761-9326
:rolleyes:
Larry, you know there's a reason for this.
Now you left that very vague; are you talking about my remark on my thoughts that Cloud isn't the best or the fact that people are just getting to know how to fight him so well that he shouldn't be considered top 5? (I mean, seriously, I don't know why people consider him top 5 still; he is slowly losing his best results as people are figuring him out more and more.)
 

KamikazePotato

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
217
I guess I have to ask, does anyone feel like Shoryu kills just a bit too early?
Not that I disagree with this (it's prob too good of a kill move), but I will say it's truly amazing how this is the first real Ryu complaint I've heard in months. Results affects perception (and discussion) by so much.


I think Bayonetta's going to end up out of top 5 by the rate she's going; while she has the good theory and in-paper ability, her tournament results are truly speaking otherwise. I think she will become in the 6th spot very soon if people know how to fight her.
Yeah, it looks like the people pushing for Bayonetta to be banned were jumping the gun.



We obviously should've been pushing to ban Ryu instead. I hear his Shoryuken kills way too early!
 
Last edited:

Radical Larry

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
1,994
Location
The Pocket Dimension
NNID
Crimson-Vulcan
3DS FC
1822-3761-9326
Not that I disagree with this (it's prob too good of a kill move), but I will say it's truly amazing how this is the first real Ryu complaint I've heard in months. Results affects perception (and discussion) by so much.




Yeah, it looks like the people pushing for Bayonetta to be banned were jumping the gun.



We obviously should've been pushing to ban Ryu instead. I hear his Shoryuken kills way too early!
Yeah, I heard that too...when he released. LOL. (But then again, Sakurai nerfs a lot of stuff, so...)

But really, in all truth, Ryu's still in top 10, just in the lower portions of it so far. He's got a long way to go until he can get up to top 5 characters again. He's currently sitting at 7 or 8 with me and that's only due to his low amount of tournament representation, some bad MUs against projectile-oriented or based characters and the fact that he's one of the hardest characters to master. In placement terms, he's beaten by Sheik, Diddy, Bayo, Sonic, ZSS, Rosalina, Pikachu and possibly Cloud.

As for Bayonetta, seriously, I just don't see her going back into top 5 currently; she's strong, yes, but she sure as hell isn't a top 5 character with all of the results she has been having at majors. I'll change my mind about her when she wins 3 to 5 majors after this. I think Sheik, Diddy, Sonic, ZSS and Rosalina are better than her right now.

That's what I think about those two. Their representatives have to REALLY do something great to make them go higher than what I believe they are.

Anyone else have opinions on the twos' placements?
 

Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
3,728
Location
Texas
NNID
NebulaMan
3DS FC
2938-7117-6800
Southern California is not a strong 5.99 region at all so I don't think a large regional tourney (i.e. every 2GGT tourney) really has huge implications on much of anything. Pink Fresh was the only super-notable Bayonetta who's done a lot at the event, and he went out at 17th - does this speak to Bayonetta's quality as a character, or does it perhaps speak to Pink Fresh possibly being inconsistent as a player?

We really don't know, which is why data collection and interpreting data is an extremely slow process and why majors are extremely important. This wasn't a major, though we did learn that Ryu is pretty good. Top 10 good? Again, too small a sample size to properly judge.
 

UberMadman

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 26, 2013
Messages
1,275
Location
NorCal
NNID
Psychotic_Forces
As for Bayonetta, seriously, I just don't see her going back into top 5 currently; she's strong, yes, but she sure as hell isn't a top 5 character with all of the results she has been having at majors. I'll change my mind about her when she wins 3 to 5 majors after this.
I'm glad that people are willing to question the concepts that the community has taken to be guaranteed, but I think you're setting your standards a bit too high here, Larry. (I guess it really does go to show how well the game is balanced that our perception of who is top 5 seems to change every single time there's another major though!) I don't believe Bayonetta is the best character in the game at the moment, but I don't doubt for a second that she's a top 5 threat. Simply put, she skews the risk/reward ratio too greatly in her favor at all times to not be a constantly terrifying presence, but the fact of the matter is she does have legitimate flaws which have been keeping people from dominating events with her. While her punish game is absurd and her disadvantage oftentimes does not truly exist, her neutral game still has a lot of holes in it, and so she had difficult matchups with characters like Diddy, Toon Link, and others who can choose to simply disengage with her and not challenge her on her bull****, and at this time most Bayonetta players have not really learned how to adapt to that. Players in the Smash community are used to pressing buttons and getting away with it, and now that players are learning to play smart, Bayonetta players need to return in kind. Instead of focusing on how to maximize her absurd punishes, I think Bayonetta players need to devote a lot of time learning how to play the neutral game well in her bad matchups so that they can actually more consistently land the insane punishes she is know for.

...You know, like Trela did?
 
Last edited:

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
1,915
Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
Trela had a really good bracket for Ryu.

Nice shot in the arm for Ryu mains though. Happy for them. Maybe people will stop pretending Sheik still beats him.
 
Last edited:

BunbUn129

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 20, 2015
Messages
614
Location
Abu Dhabi, UAE
Watching Tyrant at Fresh Saga, especially in that painful set vs Trela (great job to Trela, though), Tyrant keeps making questionable decisions and reads. Up smashing right on Ryu's shield and going for a Shuttle Loop read when he's sitting at death percents against rage Ryu, both times being a full stock down. Oh, and, Tyrant kept on dair camping against a character who has some of the best anti-airs in the game (why?!). And against Void, Tyrant went for a Shuttle Loop read when Sheik was below 40% (?!?).

Tyrant going for unnecessary reads and being impatient at times is nothing new, but with the inability to cheese most top and high tiers to death, his issues as a player are really showing. I wonder if Trela is well-practiced in the MU because he really was playing it nicely: being defensive and campy with Hadokens to exploit MK's lack of a projectile and in turn forcing him into footsies range where Ryu shines. What helped was Tyrant was being overly aggressive and mindless with his approaches, especially in the first game. In their set at False Awakens pre patch, they were pretty close already (3-2), and the stark contrast yesterday shows how much the nerf has affected MK's match-ups.

Yeah, and the Ryu MU is pretty bad, of course. Rage-less Ryu kills MK at 76%, and Ryu has little trouble bringing him to that percent since MK is a fast-faller who lacks a frame 3 aerial. MK's footsies are outmatched by Ryu's, and laming out Ryu is not an option for MK due to his lack of a projectile. The offstage game is in MK's favor, but it comes at a risk since if he fails and Ryu gets back before him, Ryu can easily cover his ledge options with his tilts. And MK's love to ledge jump predictably so this will get them murdered by Ryu at the ledge. Overall: Ryu wins footsies, racks up damage more reliably, lives longer, and kills much earlier than MK can.

Despite some good placements, Meta Knight is continuing with his downward trend, and the way the Ryu MU plays now is one of the best ways to show how much the nerf has hit him. He traded a -3 with Sheik and an amazing MU spread with the rest of the cast for a list of -1's vs Fox, Ryu, Mario, Diddy (already losing pre patch tho), Cloud, Bayonetta, and Sheik herself (debatably even now but i don't think so) along with much harder MU's vs half the cast, and Mario and Ryu may very well be -2's. The only relevant character he dominates now is Rosalina, but she isn't a common tourney pick so that means a lot less than it should. His losing MU's against Mario, Diddy, Bayonetta, and Cloud are all a significant hindrance due to how common these characters are, and at this point he absolutely needs a secondary for consistent results.

Look past his results and just watch top MK's play and even his high tier position that he's commonly perceived to have comes into question. Leo and Tyrant are amazing players with solid fundamentals and they're struggling with the character. I honestly think Meta Knight is mid-tier: on the upper half, but to me, mid tier is just mid tier, just a batch of mostly uninteresting and boringly average characters. He stands as an outlier because of his performances coming from Leo and Tyrant, not because he is a definitively high tier character.

I'm happy for Ryu mains, though. Good stuff and great plays from Trela. :)
 
Last edited:

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
Felt really bad for Tyrant. MK just has to outplay Ryu on EVERY level.

It really sucks.

Kofu Kofu To be fair Dedede DOES maul scrubs thanks to insane grab range and never dying.
 

Kofu

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Messages
4,609
Location
The caffeine-free state
NNID
Atoyont
3DS FC
1521-4492-7542
Kofu Kofu To be fair Dedede DOES maul scrubs thanks to insane grab range and never dying.
He definitely does. Add in huge, disjointed hitboxes and Gordos and he's great at messing with weak players.

But at the same time, when they nerf the air speed of the character who already had the worst air speed in the game... I have to wonder what they're thinking.
 

Nekoo

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 19, 2014
Messages
4,825
Location
Behind you !
NNID
Almazu
3DS FC
0259-0278-5162
While I don't give a **** about the Bayonetta argument. Why people suddenly say that she's not broken or not
Top 5?
We already know that she have a lot of issues and that she have A LOT AND A LOT of top 8 result (we even had data if I'm not wrong) The only gatekeeper that don't let her win major are the habitual top player. And even them have some problem to beat her.

Also for anybody asking "why ryo play Roui th3 ph1r3?" He did say in the roy social that he will play roy seriously, that he love roy like ike and corrin and that we will see nore from him.

which lead to my next question.

Anybody know if he used Roy/corrin until trela or not?
 

bc1910

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 26, 2013
Messages
1,915
Location
London
NNID
bc1910
3DS FC
1478-6611-0182
While I don't give a **** about the Bayonetta argument. Why people suddenly say that she's not broken or not
Top 5?
We already know that she have a lot of issues and that she have A LOT AND A LOT of top 8 result (we even had data if I'm not wrong) The only gatekeeper that don't let her win major are the habitual top player. And even them have some problem to beat her.

Also for anybody asking "why ryo play Roui th3 ph1r3?" He did say in the roy social that he will play roy seriously, that he love roy like ike and corrin and that we will see nore from him.

which lead to my next question.

Anybody know if he used Roy/corrin until trela or not?
People tend to draw rash conclusions from single tournaments, sets or even games. CIP - expect people to be calling Ryu top 5 again before the day is out.

Anyone denying Bayo's strength as a character is not appreciating the fact that she still has a staggering amount of top 8 appearances and is number 1 on various results rankings. In my opinion it is extremely short sighted to suggest that she's not top 5 and it's still highly likely that she's currently the best character (just not in a tier of her own).

The fact remains, though, that Bayo generally isn't winning tournaments. Despite having the best overall record she is not displaying the dominance shown by pre-patch Diddy, Brawl MK or even Melee Fox. This argument can be used to cast reasonable doubt on her overall strength. Though it's worth noting that the "soft ban" mentioned by Browny is a real thing, and top players aren't really switching to her. The best player who's using her is probably 9B.
 

Baby_Sneak

Smash Champion
Joined
May 28, 2014
Messages
2,029
Location
Middletown, Ohio
NNID
sneak_diss
Though it's worth noting that the "soft ban" mentioned by Browny is a real thing, and top players aren't really switching to her.
Was this ever proven to be true or is this just gossip? I've heard this statement before in the past and I don't think it's truly valid.
 

ArnoldPalmer

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 3, 2016
Messages
116
People tend to draw rash conclusions from single tournaments, sets or even games. CIP - expect people to be calling Ryu top 5 again before the day is out.

Anyone denying Bayo's strength as a character is not appreciating the fact that she still has a staggering amount of top 8 appearances and is number 1 on various results rankings. In my opinion it is extremely short sighted to suggest that she's not top 5 and it's still highly likely that she's currently the best character (just not in a tier of her own).

The fact remains, though, that Bayo generally isn't winning tournaments. Despite having the best overall record she is not displaying the dominance shown by pre-patch Diddy, Brawl MK or even Melee Fox. This argument can be used to cast reasonable doubt on her overall strength. Though it's worth noting that the "soft ban" mentioned by Browny is a real thing, and top players aren't really switching to her. The best player who's using her is probably 9B.
I'm sorry but I cannot see a character with as many weaknesses as Bayonetta as the best character in the game. She is a strong character but she reminds me more of how strong jigglypuff was in melee. Not the best but an extremely potent character.
On the other hand I can see either Sheik or Diddy as the best characters, arguably the best 2 neutrals in the game with not many issues besides actually killing and even then they both have amazing edgeguarding and are able to kill well below 100 with a good read
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom