Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Pazzo.]

Could Pikachu have been perceived as High-Tier this whole time because of ESAM's former success with the character?

From what I see, the electric rat just doesn't have it to compete with the likes of and

 

[BunbUn129]

Could Pikachu have been perceived as High-Tier this whole time because of ESAM's former success with the character?

From what I see, the electric rat just doesn't have it to compete with the likes of and

Things that are true about virtually every smash 4 tier list that don't make much sense, and for some reason are a recurring theme:

1) Ryu is top 5
2) Pikachu is top 10
3) Yoshi is top 20
4) Roy is higher than half the cast

You also had some traditions (some of which made sense) previously:

1) Sheik must be 1st
2) ZSS must be 2nd (or in ESAM's case, Pikachu)
3) Diddy must be several spots too low
4) Meta Knight must be several spots too low
5) Zelda must be last
6) M2 must be low tier

Traditions will be traditions even if everyone agrees everything is plainly wrong or absurd.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

People seems to forget Pikachu has dtilt that can lead to a usmash, he also has plenty of jab locks and bthrow can kill, while unsafe dash attack can kill early, fsmash is huge and Ive seen it can only be punished when perfect shielded, dash attack can kill early and (not really sure on this one, would love the confirmation of another Pikachu main) I think fair can lead into usmash

 

[Strong-Arm]

Just a heads up on . If you play Zard or plan on playing him then a couple of things to keep in mind.
1. He is no higher than mid, no way is he lower than mid. He is smack in the mid tier. Sorry to anyone who thinks otherwise.
2. He still struggles heavily against characters with insane pressure, he can get away pretty easily dealing with shiek due to her lack of kills moves and in general Zard benefiting from Rage more than anyone else in the game. On that note of the high/top tiers give him a notable hell of a time. He is still combo food with a pretty awful disadvantaged state in the air.
3. I think he is solo mainable at this point in time (I could be, and very well may be wrong on this). Zard has the tools to deal with basically anyone AS long as he remains grounded and in charge of stage control. If he loses that control his life becomes insanely difficult until he gets that control again.
4. I dont think anyone notable is going to pick him up anytime soon at all. Hate to say it but atm all the high/top level players really have no reason to pick him up. Thus I hope some unknown Zard player becomes more notable.
5. I still feel like people dont know how to properly play him. Hes odd, I wont deny it, and has so little info to work off of it hurts. He does his best when he has stage control and holds his ground, his dtilt and jab are godlike for this.
6. Flare Blitz out of throw IS NOT GUARANTEED PLEASE STOP SHARING WRONG INFO. Players can still easily DI or air dodge. Dont do it near the ledge ever cause youre just going to give up a stock.
7. Zard actually (In theory) shouldnt struggle too hard against. Not to say that he wins the MU, no way, Clouds frame data and speed outclass Zard by a huge margin. But off stage and when it comes to stage control Zard can control the pace of the match fairly easily. Cloud is awful against shields and Zard has one of the best grab games in the game as well as pretty large sweeping hitboxes.



Im awful at explaining things so some of this may not make much sense so I apologize in advance.

 

[BunbUn129]

People seems to forget Pikachu has dtilt that can lead to a usmash, he also has plenty of jab locks and bthrow can kill, while unsafe, fsmash is huge and Ive seen it can only be punished when perfect shielded, dash attack can kill early and (not really sure on this one, would love the confirmation of another Pikachu main) I think fair can lead into usmash

Dash attack is unsafe, with 30+ frames of ending lag. A jab lock is never truly reliable because it requires your opponent to miss their tech. B-throw doesn't even work well as a stock cap: with optimal DI, Mario dies at ~190% from the side of FD. D tilt to usmash: why haven't I seen ESAM use this (jab locks don't count because they often require a specific scenario and stop working at KO percents)?


A side note: virtually any move can be punished if perfect shielded, including one as safe as MK's fsmash, which is one reason as to why perfect shielding exists in the first place.

 

[Peppermint1201]

People seems to forget Pikachu has dtilt that can lead to a usmash, he also has plenty of jab locks and bthrow can kill, while unsafe dash attack can kill early, fsmash is huge and Ive seen it can only be punished when perfect shielded, dash attack can kill early and (not really sure on this one, would love the confirmation of another Pikachu main) I think fair can lead into usmash

Pikachu's dtilt does horizontal knockback, and I don't think it will ever launch the opponent close enough or do enough hitstun to be guaranteed into an upsmash or even particularly restrict your opponent's options. That's like saying Fox's dtilt leads to his upsmash. Pikachu does have jab locks, but remember that jab locks rely on the opponent's inability to tech -- if you watch high-level matches chances are low you will see jab locks occur for this reason. Do not mitigate the unsafeness of Pikachu's dash attack, it really is not worth the risk. As Bunbun129 mentioned, it has over 30 frames of endlag. "It can only be punished when perfect shielded" can be said about any strong smash; does that mean it is unpunishable? Of course not, especially considering that perfect shielding is not very technically demanding.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Things that are true about virtually every smash 4 tier list that don't make much sense, and for some reason are a recurring theme:

1) Ryu is top 5
2) Pikachu is top 10
3) Yoshi is top 20
4) Roy is higher than half the cast

Traditions will be traditions even if everyone agrees everything is plainly wrong or absurd.

These largely have to do with optimization theory. On paper, all four of those characters would be scary if they had near perfect players, especially Ryu, but we really haven't seen that. The learning curve to reward ratio of Ryu and Pikachu is discouraging a lot of players (especially when you have characters like Cloud and Mario to consider), Yoshi's basic strategies have run their course just like Captain Falcon's, and Roy is practically wishful thinking and underscoring weaknesses that he has despite using them to regularly trash talk other characters like Link and Shulk.

 

[BunbUn129]

These largely have to do with optimization theory. On paper, all four of those characters would be scary if they had near perfect players, especially Ryu, but we really haven't seen that. The learning curve to reward ratio of Ryu and Pikachu is discouraging a lot of players (especially when you have characters like Cloud and Mario to consider), Yoshi's basic strategies have run their course just like Captain Falcon's, and Roy is practically wishful thinking and underscoring weaknesses that he has despite using them to regularly trash talk other characters like Link and Shulk.

Problem is, it's not consistent with the philosophy of the ranking. Yes, Ryu is scary in theory, but his results never backed up #4. Meanwhile, the majority of the cast was more or less in line with their results. Pikachu, Ryu, Roy, and others are notable outliers and exceptions to this rule, considering the 4BR list was supposedly results based.

I'll be honest, though, even in theory, Pikachu doesn't have what it takes to be top 5, because poor KOing ability is poor KOing ability, while a character like Ryu is held back mostly by technical demands.

 

[T4ylor]

Strong-Arm Some characters that I see being in the middle of the cast are Wario, Robin, and DK. Would you say Charizard is comparable to them, because I can't see it. Whenever I think up a match up spread for him it's pretty bad, because he loses to like every relevant character.

 

[Yikarur]

1. He is no higher than mid, no way is he lower than mid. He is smack in the mid tier. Sorry to anyone who thinks otherwise.
2. [...] in general Zard benefiting from Rage more than anyone else in the game. [...]
3. [...] Zard has the tools to deal with basically anyone AS long as he remains grounded [...]

I picked some sentenced that have basically zero information content. There are just some claims thrown into the thread. If you really want to convince people of your points you need reasoning. (What tools does Charizard have on the ground that makes him good enough? Why does he benefit from rage more than anyone else? Why are you sorry for people who may have a different opinion?
Questions Questions..


Most training mode combos are true btw. There are not that much situations where the combo counter is mistaken. The main problem with training mode is the lack of DI. If you are not convinced by the combo counter you can put the CPU at Lv9, get the grab and switch their behavior to "attack". They will play like a normal LV9 CPU and thus airdodge on reaction.
And the Pikachu Thunder Thing has been proven true on DI-read as well.

 

[Peppermint1201]

And the Pikachu Thunder Thing has been proven true on DI-read as well.

What do you mean by that?

 

[FirewaterDM]

Ok, as a Pikachu main I would love to listen what keeps Pikachu from being top tier? I mean, he can seal stocks way easier than the likes of Sheik (now), Mario, MK, and Sonic with attacks like usmash, fsmash, uthrow/dthrow thunder,offstage gimps etc..., and he has a lot of combos to deal damaga quickly, he has great neutral tools in sh fair, dair, quick attack, when in a good distance tjolt, full hop nair etc...

Also a Pika main- the largest issue is killing. There are no kill confirms that he really owns besides gimps, hard reads or Up/Down Throw to Thunder. Compared to all of the other things that most of the top tiers have in terms of killing potential, he has the worst options.

Usmash - need a read or they don't tech dtilt, and even then no sweetspot = 10-15% later kill.
Fsmash - need a read and sweetspot or you kill 10-15% later.
Uthrow/Dthrow + Thunder - still need to read b/c everyone knows the DI at this point - is prob the least read intensive of his options to kill people but still exist.
Gimps - his most/second best tool - current ledge mechanics makes this hard, certain characters it's very difficult even for Pika (Shiek)

Other than that, like his other aerials/basic attacks (Dair, Nair, Ftilt) won't kill till 130+ w/o rage and/or bad DI. If Pika got a real kill confirm, or if Usmash/Fsmash were slightly stronger, he'd be ok kill wise- but compared to most of the people above him, kill power is kinda atrocious, and at high levels where people don't do dumb things/fall into smashes, makes him hard to be successful.

Other issue is virtually no results outside of Esam.

 

[BunbUn129]

Also a Pika main- the largest issue is killing. There are no kill confirms that he really owns besides gimps, hard reads or Up/Down Throw to Thunder. Compared to all of the other things that most of the top tiers have in terms of killing potential, he has the worst options.

Usmash - need a read or they don't tech dtilt, and even then no sweetspot = 10-15% later kill.
Fsmash - need a read and sweetspot or you kill 10-15% later.
Uthrow/Dthrow + Thunder - still need to read b/c everyone knows the DI at this point - is prob the least read intensive of his options to kill people but still exist.
Gimps - his most/second best tool - current ledge mechanics makes this hard, certain characters it's very difficult even for Pika (Shiek)

Other than that, like his other aerials/basic attacks (Dair, Nair, Ftilt) won't kill till 130+ w/o rage and/or bad DI. If Pika got a real kill confirm, or if Usmash/Fsmash were slightly stronger, he'd be ok kill wise- but compared to most of the people above him, kill power is kinda atrocious, and at high levels where people don't do dumb things/fall into smashes, makes him hard to be successful.

Other issue is virtually no results outside of Esam.

What baffles me is that not only does Pikachu have trouble landing KO moves, but he also requires sweetspots on them.

To sum it up, Pikachu does not have kill moves; Pikachu has kill hitboxes.

 

[Strong-Arm]

I think pre patch it would be the case for sure, but post patch a lot of his core issues were fixed. Zard has a lot of stuff that people seemingly ignore for whatever reason and go with the whole "someone has to be bottom" when they barely know anything or understand anything about the character. Zards jab is fast, can set up for grabs and even kill, bair is basically an aerial smash thats safe on shield if properly spaced and can be set up into with dthrow, Zards grab game is one of the best in the game with a huge grab box, a combo throw and a kill throw that kills really really early. His fire is an extremely underutilized tool that can control the ledge with ease (tho it is limited and thus isnt an indefinite threat). Rock smash is a decent get out of my face card tho its still somewhat slow it can be the difference between death or not death. Fly is a really really good OOS option that kills early and has armor. The flare blitz buff makes the move insanely scary due to how early it kills and its range. Zard also has an insanely good recovery in comparison to the other heavies. Rage benefits him due to the fact that he can give himself rage (flare blitz), and that so many of his moves are kill moves. Rage makes all of his smashes, upthrow, uair, bair, flareblitz, and fly kill even early so seeing people die at around 60 shouldnt be uncommon for him.Zard isnt above mid imo due to how big he is and having a pretty bad disadvantage state in the air. Its hard for him to get out of combos.

 

[sedrf]

To be honest pikachu might of been bettered if off stage coomabt/gimping was stronger.
Such is smash 4

 

[NairWizard]

The top tier in this game have dominant states of gameplay, and generally none of their states are outright bad. Cloud's bonkers neutral, Bayo's everything, Diddy's neutral, etc. Pikachu is pretty average in all three.

At this point I think people using the game states in discussion in this topic is causing more confusion than anything. Pikachu isn't average in disadvantage. He's easily top 10, likely top 5, and arguably #1 in the state. I would rate Pikachu's disadvantage 10/10.

His neutral has some holes in it relative to the top tiers but it's also significantly above average, due to defensive options, mobility/size combo, and his startup on moves. I'd rate Pikachu's neutral 7/10.

His advantage state onstage is significantly below average, would even call it bottom 5 with KO power/reach/damage output in mind; if it weren't for his edgeguarding this would ruin the character, but as it stands this just keeps him from being top or high tier. I'd rate Pikachu's advantage 3/10.

Overall this yields a character who is somewhere in the 15-30th range of the cast. I think Corrin/Ike/Mewtwo/Greninja/the whole "above mid tier" bubble has a case for beating Pikachu on a given tier list, and they certainly have comparable results.

 

[DunnoBro]

Ok, as a Pikachu main I would love to listen what keeps Pikachu from being top tier? I mean, he can seal stocks way easier than the likes of Sheik (now), Mario, MK, and Sonic with attacks like usmash, fsmash, uthrow/dthrow thunder,offstage gimps etc..., and he has a lot of combos to deal damaga quickly, he has great neutral tools in sh fair, dair, quick attack, when in a good distance tjolt, full hop nair etc...

Mario's smashes are way better than pikas, and his edgeguarding is only slightly weaker. He also has a kill throw and unavoidable death combos depending on platform positioning/rage. There's no way pikachu seals stocks "way easier" than mario, I doubt it gets much easier than grabbing and killing someone even if they know how to DI your throws.

Also, speaking of sheik, the dsmash buff actually completed sheik's killing coverage of ledge grabs.

Full charge needles covers Ledge Jump + Hang (Can get Standard but requires a different spacing for true combo into bf)
Nair + BF Gets Standard get up
And now dsmash for roll

Of course, before she could just grab you and go for a 50/50 (if still applicable) But I'm actually enjoying how efficient she is about actually challenging these options. While I don't think she particularly needed more nerfs outside of needles, I'm a little more optimistic about her placing.

Though the issue is how late these come into play and how both inconsistent and scary it is trying to nair short chars like ness and mario who are gonna kill her for not timing it exactly right.

 

[BunbUn129]

And the Pikachu Thunder Thing has been proven true on DI-read as well.

Underline the word read.

Top tiers generally have the luxury of reacting to DI, without the need of predicting it.

It's why Meta Knight's ladder was so damn lenient; you could just follow DI and you were good. You had some 25 frames to adjust to their DI. And that's just one example of reaction vs read.

U-throw > Thunder amounts to nothing more than tossing a triple sided coin.

 

[TurboLink]

These largely have to do with optimization theory. On paper, all four of those characters would be scary if they had near perfect players, especially Ryu, but we really haven't seen that. The learning curve to reward ratio of Ryu and Pikachu is discouraging a lot of players (especially when you have characters like Cloud and Mario to consider), Yoshi's basic strategies have run their course just like Captain Falcon's, and Roy is practically wishful thinking and underscoring weaknesses that he has despite using them to regularly trash talk other characters like Link and Shulk.

Roy has a very delusional fanbase.

What makes me laugh is that Roy's biggest strength his punish game is one of the best if not the best in within this game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Going to war right now!

https://twitter.com/JohnNumbers/status/712995724473069568

Edit: Hmm... how do I make a Tweet appear visibly on a post?


Also, this entire post is amazing. I knew a good deal of this already, but there was stuff in there I didn't know, plus a whole load of intel in general that has a severe publicity issue.

So... nice work leading the charge there.

John thank you for being a voice of reason among the chaos.

This ban talk is bat **** insane. She is nowhere near the level of Brawl MK or IC's. I just don't understand this.

 

[Mario766]

Yet again

ONE BI-MONTHLY TOURNAMENT BANNED BAYONETTA.

It's literally the ****ing equivalent of a small 20 man tournament banning a character because the people decided they didn't want to play vs them. IT DOESN'T ****ING MATTER

Get back to me when Pulse bans it from the Arcadian or some ****, THEN you'll have something to talk about.

People

I'm looking at ****ing you Chicago

are taking this SERIOUSLY way out of proportion right ****ing now.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Problem is, it's not consistent with the philosophy of the ranking. Yes, Ryu is scary in theory, but his results never backed up #4. Meanwhile, the majority of the cast was more or less in line with their results. Pikachu, Ryu, Roy, and others are notable outliers and exceptions to this rule, considering the 4BR list was supposedly results based.

I'll be honest, though, even in theory, Pikachu doesn't have what it takes to be top 5, because poor KOing ability is poor KOing ability, while a character like Ryu is held back mostly by technical demands.

Ryu is held back by people doing things like utilt to RANDOM FOCUS ATTACK MINDGAMES, instead of just going for clean simple stock ending punishes.

Oh OH OOOOOOOOOOOOOOH this one is my fave,

This character has a sword? Cool, imma run around and FULL JUMP NAIR LIKE A ******, get anti-aired all ****ing day then throw out random shoryus and pray to the smash gods that it works.

Then when I dont even make it out of pools imma go watch a combo video by hooded.

Because thats why you lost right? Not enough sexy 1337zors combos.

****ing dumbass Ryu community I swear on my grandmothers grave.

 

[NairWizard]

The anti-Bayonetta talk is absolutely asinine, and, coming from good players, is the equivalent of the a-hole friend who chastises or laughs at you for using a bad character and then whines when you beat him with a good character.

"pick a top tier, man, come on, play to win"

"but don't pick a top tier better than mine, I still want to be able to beat you"

 

[Rikkhan]

Migth be a little off topic but I just want to say that there is a misconception regarding reaction time, usually people just google average reaction time or go to this site and look that the average is 240-260 ms (roughly 16 frames) and say "well anything 16+ frames can be reacted", this is wrong because is only considering a binary response (green/red screen) something that in no way reprensent a fighting game.

A better example of this is the millia blocker by teyah, which puts a more complex scenario, high, lows and different attack moves, my reaction time is 230-250 ms (15-16 frames) on the milla blocker is 22-24 frames (352-380) which is the average, as you could see there is a huge difference, also is interesting that in this test you have to block two types of overhead moves (6K and Bad Moon), I have 3-4 frames difference between these two thats because Bad Moon is visually easier to recognize so visual cues do matter.

So in smash 4 a example would be ZSS grab (16 frames), It may be able to dodge the grab on pure reaction but this implies you only expect the grab (green/red screen) if she do another action you will not react to it because you give no time to process the action in you brain. In reality dodging ZSS grabs are entirely based on prediction.

This lead me to believe that unless you have a horrible reaction time it barely matters, even at pro level (m2k has average reaction time something like 240 I forgot the number), anything below 20 frames is usually not reactable unless you already expect that move. Muscle memory, a good mixup game and be able to predict habits (a.k.a reads) are much more important for dodging/landing attacks.

 

[deepseadiva]

Luma largely negating bayo's combos, witch time, divekicks, and taking advantage of her general propensity for being a big light body often in the air with issues getting in/landing means if Rosa of all characters doesn't win that matchup then I doubt anyone does.

Is one move really enough to make this a bad matchup for Rosalina?

Luma cannot shield or dodge Dive Kick. If Rosalina doesn't anticipate the 8 frame move, Luma has to eat it. I do think it's a matchup changing move, since Dunnobro is right: Rosalina + Luma shreds up Bayonetta. But a single pathway to Luma deletion changes that entirely.

 

[DunnoBro]

I don't like bayonetta, but I do find it weird that the most vocal players in support of her ban were against banning MK (and to my knowledge still retain that stance)

I think it's less about actually wanting her banned and more wanting the speedy nerfing for her that just widespread complaining wouldn't accomplish quite as well as removing incentive for TOs to purchase her.

Luma cannot shield or dodge Dive Kick. If Rosalina doesn't anticipate the 8 frame move, Luma has to eat it. I do think it's a matchup changing move, since Dunnobro is right: Rosalina + Luma shreds up Bayonetta. But a single pathway to Luma deletion changes that entirely.

By "Divekicks" I mean the actual aerial downward angle downb that makes landing bayonetta such a threat. It almost never kills Luma or sends it offstage due to the positions, so it's really just a situation other characters would die where rosa loses next to nothing.

I will admit Bayo is pretty good at getting rid of Luma, though.

 

[Fatmanonice]

The bar for "jank" for this game keeps getting lower and lower and, by summer's end, the only real jank in the game could possibly be the Expand Dong combo (which, given DK's weaknesses, is perfectly fine for him to have). Think about everything that's been corrected:

-ladder combos becoming a lot harder to pull (aside from Bayo)
-every top/high tier losing their "hoo-hah"
-shield locks going away
-Cloud's aerial Finishing Touch and Corrin's counter surge being downright neutered
-Sheik and ZSS getting BTFO
-Witch Time and Bayo's dair getting nerfed some

There's not too much left that could be described as "unfair". Honestly, maybe take away some of Bayo's uair kill power, increase the ending/landing lag for some of Cloud's aerials (uair and dair mostly), maybe decrease the kill power of Limit Cross Slash, and I think we'd be pretty well squared away. Fighting Rosalina is still like sneezing with a mouthful of oatmeal while wearing a diver's helmet but I'm not even really sure where to begin with her so I'm holding off my suggestions there.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Yet again

ONE BI-MONTHLY TOURNAMENT BANNED BAYONETTA.

It's literally the ****ing equivalent of a small 20 man tournament banning a character because the people decided they didn't want to play vs them. IT DOESN'T ****ING MATTER

Get back to me when Pulse bans it from the Arcadian or some ****, THEN you'll have something to talk about.

People

I'm looking at ****ing you Chicago

are taking this SERIOUSLY way out of proportion right ****ing now.

Slow your roll Lil home boy. Considering I know the Bayonetta in Chicago, Tyroy, that beat Hyuga and nearly beat both Mr. R and Ally, I may be biased in this entire spiel.

Chicago is a salt mine and a place that until recently ran 6 stages (FD, SV, BF, TC, DH). What I'm getting at, is that I know we are weird, but we won't go that crazy and salty to ban Bayo.

Others may do as they please, but cmon, using JJRockets or Dan as your reference as to how salt levels in Chicago means you're gonna have a bad time and be confused as to how the scene actually feels.

I personally feel Bayonetta is stupid, but a lot of thinks are stupid in this game, like how sometimes flicking the cstick could result in an unwanted Nair or just easy grab confirm kills instead of trying to buff the actual character;etc. Stupid things shouldn't be banned, but just be known as being stupid.

Plus Tyroy plays mainly in Urbana Champaign cuz he's in school with me ( I highly recommend to watch House of Paign 10 April 2nd when Pound is on break). The competition is always strong there but Tyroy is just a tier above people there and even proving to be Illinois's best bet against invaders.

 

[deepseadiva]

By "Divekicks" I mean the actual aerial downward angle downb that makes landing bayonetta such a threat. It almost never kills Luma or sends it offstage due to the positions, so it's really just a situation other characters would die where rosa loses next to nothing.

I will admit Bayo is pretty good at getting rid of Luma, though.

Optimally, if Bayonettas can configure a Luma killing combo from a Dive Kick start... but I just looked up Luma's HP and holy s**** 52 points that is so much OMG that is not fair wtffff

Dive Kick + Dive Kick + Witch Twist does about 17%. And Dair, which does have a very good Luma killing angle, adds another 8%.

I would recommend Bayonettas trying to solve the Rosalina matchup to start there.

 

[DunnoBro]

Optimally, if Bayonettas can configure a Luma killing combo from a Dive Kick start... but I just looked up Luma's HP and holy s**** 52 points that is so much OMG that is not fair wtffff

Dive Kick + Dive Kick + Witch Twist does about 17%. And Dair, which does have a very good Luma killing angle, adds another 8%.

I would recommend Bayonettas trying to solve the Rosalina matchup to start there.

Actually, I just tested it. Since luma has no di/air dodging to worry about, dk + dk + witch twist + nair sends a fresh Luma almost 4/5th across f/d. That's... Well, when I said "If Rosalina doesn't beat her, no one does" I should mention I meant that in a "She's our only hope" sort of way.

 

[DanGR]

Luma has 50hp- not 52.

---

Luma interrupting Bayo combos isn't so cut and dry. I'm still in the process of labbing it all, but I'll suffice to say that interrupting her combos is less about if Luma is directly below Bayo on a platform (this is rarely ever a recipe for Luma combo breakers against her, in my experience), and much more focused around whether or not Luma is taking hits and against witch specials at witch times. Yes, that happened.

Not to mention Rosalina seems to have a more difficult time escaping her combos (ignoring Luma) in general, givin her large frame and floaty* nature.

*I don't like the word "floaty," but it fits here and people understand what I mean.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Strong-Arm Some characters that I see being in the middle of the cast are Wario, Robin, and DK. Would you say Charizard is comparable to them, because I can't see it. Whenever I think up a match up spread for him it's pretty bad, because he loses to like every relevant character.

Post-patch I could see him holding his own against . Maybe a couple of others, but he still likely loses 40-60 or worse against roughly half of high tier, even if those are more winnable now. Not likely better than low-mid. For comparison, Ganondorf I think is probably still bottom 15 and he should be able to hold his own against and maaaybe depending on how relevant their buffs/nerfs are to the MU. Granted none of Zard's bad MUs are likely as bad as Dorf-Bayo, but his MU spread against the relevant cast is still decidedly uphill. Most mid-to-high-mid chars have better high tier MU spreads. I might be underestimating Zard's buffs, and admit that I'm not as familiar with his MUs as Dorf's, but there are a lot of characters out there with solid tools, and the only way to really sort out the mid-tier muddle is to look at high tier MU spreads.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Yeah it's true the bar has been lowered, but can you blame the people? They've been getting spoiled with patches and even on Zero's prank call to Nintendo, we've found out that the more people complain, the more likely things will be addressed.

Brawl was my favorite even with KD3 invalidating my characters, even with pika ruining my Wolf, even with Snake and disjoints on dtilt and dtilt, with Ganon being bad, with MK and ICs too. Why was it my favorite? The community was fresh and wasn't riding the coattails of Melee as it was dropped pretty quickly from their community and Brawl players quickly learned to be independent and smart. They knew the game was busted, but IT WAS THEIR BUSTED GAME AND THEY LOVED IT! Not repeating the sentiment of git gud and adapt, but what I'm saying is people need to get self reliant and not hope for things to go their way all time. It usually doesn't work that way. I mean the patch dropped randomly, so if people keep striving forward for anti Bayo strats and then a Nerf patch comes her way, then it won't be a problem. Right now having a moping party won't help. I dunno about you, but I get motivated whenever I feel like I got punched in the mouth as next time I will punch back harder.

Fighting Rosalina is still like sneezing with a mouthful of oatmeal while wearing a diver's helmet

This got me rolling as I was really trying to imagine that scenario.

 

[LancerStaff]

Most training mode combos are true btw. There are not that much situations where the combo counter is mistaken. The main problem with training mode is the lack of DI. If you are not convinced by the combo counter you can put the CPU at Lv9, get the grab and switch their behavior to "attack". They will play like a normal LV9 CPU and thus airdodge on reaction.
And the Pikachu Thunder Thing has been proven true on DI-read as well.

Actually, no. CPUs refuse to cancel hitstun with an airdodge. Pit's Dthrow > Uair works to the point where it's a kill combo on CPUs when that's definitely not the case. From my experience labbing the Pits I can safely say most training combos are fake because most people assume one of many things is correct when it isn't.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I don't like bayonetta, but I do find it weird that the most vocal players in support of her ban were against banning MK

That's actually interesting. Is it true though? Who specifically was against banning MK in Brawl and is in favor of banning Bayonetta now?

 

[Pazzo.]

Yeah it's true the bar has been lowered, but can you blame the people? They've been getting spoiled with patches and even on Zero's prank call to Nintendo, we've found out that the more people complain, the more likely things will be addressed.

Brawl was my favorite even with KD3 invalidating my characters, even with pika ruining my Wolf, even with Snake and disjoints on dtilt and dtilt, with Ganon being bad, with MK and ICs too. Why was it my favorite? The community was fresh and wasn't riding the coattails of Melee as it was dropped pretty quickly from their community and Brawl players quickly learned to be independent and smart. They knew the game was busted, but IT WAS THEIR BUSTED GAME AND THEY LOVED IT! Not repeating the sentiment of git gud and adapt, but what I'm saying is people need to get self reliant and not hope for things to go their way all time. It usually doesn't work that way. I mean the patch dropped randomly, so if people keep striving forward for anti Bayo strats and then a Nerf patch comes her way, then it won't be a problem. Right now having a moping party won't help. I dunno about you, but I get motivated whenever I feel like I got punched in the mouth as next time I will punch back harder.


This got me rolling as I was really trying to imagine that scenario.

This. I'd wager that having a "it's here for good" mindset is more healthy and productive.

While it's true that just saying "adapt" can't solve every problem, it's a whole lot better than this sophomoric whine fest over Bayonetta.

 

[DunnoBro]

That's actually interesting. Is it true though? Who specifically was against banning MK in Brawl and is in favor of banning Bayonetta now?

Ally, Anti. Dunno about ZeRo though considering his main I doubt he was crazy about it.

 

[ARISTOS]

The anti-Bayonetta brigading going on right now is annoying as **** and has been stoked by top players using their positions to give legitimacy to what would normally be put down as low level ********.

Bayonetta has been out for a whole 50 DAYS. The players doing well with her on a national level have been historically strong players who either didn't play a lot last year (Salem) or were stuck using midtiers (Pink Fresh). It makes sense then that they would start doing better!

Luckily I think calmer heads will prevail and this **** flinging will end but this is pretty dumb. 50 days is not a long amount of time at all (there are work out programs longer than that), and jump straight to banning her when we haven't had the tournament data to prove she's abnormally strong at a mid-to-high level (unlike our spiky haired friend ) is beyond stupid.

 

[Fatmanonice]

One of the reasons I'm holding my tongue when it comes to Rosalina is because people claim that, with Sheik and ZSS getting nerfed, more characters that do alright against her have a chance to grow. I've heard arguments for doing well against her but I only really have experience with (probably even at worst) and (pretty much a battle of who can be more annoying). Anyone else want to weigh in on these?

 

[Pancracio17]

Man all that bayonetta salt just feeds me, lol.
Hope she doesnt get nerfed too hard.