Isn't the argument more like we got sick of 6+ months of people saying Pikachu is top 3 with ultimately abysmal results at all levels of play globally bar ESAM?
Instead of some of these Pikachu fans shifting from the fanatical towards sensibility, they've just gotten even more resounding in their insular rhetoric - "they're denying our truth" "well we need to embrace these
lies TRUTHS EVEN HARDER AND BETTER AND FASTER AND STRONGER AND MORE RELENTLESSLY UNTIL EVERYONE BELIEVES US!!!!"
This doesn't bode well anywhere. However, tough love often works wonders... but that's only works on people who dislike having gaps in their knowledge or understanding. Hopefully with this, at least this annoying chapter may finally come to an end.
When we ask for proof, we get linked a training mode video. (cue eye rolling from any knowledgeable smash player)
Or get told "well our discord BELIEVES THIS" - because such entities are
absolutely authoritative.
Now I'm a
huge fan of discords, because they can so easily be fantastic dens of misinformation and falsities ("zomg true combawz") that more knowledgeable smash players SHOULD be wary of poking a stick at. As is anywhere which cuts itself off from the outside world and doesn't consider reality or even
REAL THEORY (seriously, people in this community give theory crafters a BAD name and I DESPISE THIS).
I'm a little late for this as the main conversation point, so hopefully you can bare with me,
it's time to write some Thank You Notes
Thank you, training mode for being INACCURATE,
Thus making way too many smash players base development on a lie, producing discourse which is practically worthless.
Training mode will be showing combos in situations in which the opponent is already free to air dodge for TEN to FIFTEEN+ FRAMES PRIOR.
Thank you, people who make media content based on training mode discoveries,
Such as the guy who made a video stating Marth from 1.1.4 due to the range increases has "GUARANTEEEEEED" down throw up/back air on many fast fallers (including heavies like falcon: we have a weight based throw fyi) in the cast at "ALL PERCENT" until it kills.
It took over 10,000+ views before anyone stated the reality: "you do realise training mode is bull **** right?" directly to the creator. This person just ignored us/denied the truth (similar to what we see here) while farming more youtube viewers (with it being referenced and unfortunately believed by the likes of ZeRo). We even got Lavani, Foxy and Zapp to confirm this was false; he stopped replying. Video is still up there and I get to see it linked still on a regular basis.
And that's the type of authority people listen to in discord groups~
I believe the same person released a GRENINJA DASH ATTACK COMBO video for 1.1.5 when there is literally no frame advantage difference between patches.
Thank you so much.
This stuff easily spreads around as truth and is not new to Smash4.
This is a significant factor to the general pragmatic standard of the community for prioritizing results over theory!
(because a majority of people SUCK at theory)
Thank you, Pikabunz, for being a Pikachu main and someone who works tirelessly to provide objective data for the community that helps so many,
thus showing further hope that a Pikachu supporter and being a reasonable thinker aren't mutually exclusive or statistical anomalies~
(zealotry exist everywhere, there just seems to be a lot in relation to Pika)
Your work provided an amazing reference for hit stun cancelling being in the game and that the ability to cancel hit stun with air dodges stalls at
40 frames for a significant period of time and should be COMMON KNOWLEDGE AT THIS POINT.
And thank you, A10thehero for having good taste in avatars,
your detailed and down-to-earth Pika insight are pleasant to read and show no abrasion, 5~ stars.
Even if I don't agree with many things, I hope you continue your hard work
---------
I've been receiving a great lecture on twitter from Meshima and DRAFIX about what research had been on hitstun values and got a pretty big spiel with lots of cool tidbits.
It's annoying I can't give a single link to show the entire conversation (grr), but I think I'll have to do a "Hit Stun in Smash 4" thread sometime soon to summarize it all.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CeO9i-MUIAA3cXw.jpg
a graph of values of hit stun for Captain Falcon's dair on Mario
blue line being specials/jumps, red being attacks and green being air dodges. Eventually they converge again
to the same value at around 98 frames./ 245 knockback.
A tad bit later DRAFIX came along to provide a data sheet covering all else I needed to know to be comfortable with the rest here.
https://twitter.com/drafix570/status/712639896851079168
Now going by the verbal description from ESAM's video -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAZJbMo4AmM
"if you jump too early after you hit down and back you'll just miss because you're not going to have the reduced momentum" (1m)
This is the critical part here that will likely prove fatal
And the literal input explanation (1m40s) "forward, and then down back,
and then you run a little bit, then you jump thunder"
So time for some MATHS
Pikachu's up throw releases on frame 16 and it's duration is 35 frames.
This is giving Pikachu a -20 on his throw follow ups.
Now at 100% on Sheik, Pikachu's up throw knockback has not breached the 40 frame air dodge window yet.
At 130% on Sheik, the opponent will be suffering 45 frames of hit stun before they can air dodge.
So at that optimal percent range Pikachu will have between 20 to 25 frames to:
Dash for a varied amount of time but the minimum being the dash dance window [at least
FIVE FRAMES]
Input a turn around [1 frame]
Wait for an indeterminate amount of time during your skid animation (?) [seemingly essential for the air mobility thing]
Start your jump [4 frames]
Start thunder and hit the opponent with the meteor cloud [13-15 frames]
Now, before we even consider dashing and waiting out your turn around skid
at 100% you have a
2 frame leeway to achieve those two things (i.e. impossible)
at 130% you have a
7 frame leeway to "" -
As from what I gather one must wait out the dash dance window to get the skid, this makes it so that it's impossible to be guaranteed at 100%. And at 130% one only has 2 frames to jump during the skid animation but you're still required to perfectly time a turn around after the initial dash dance window.
[Maybe +1 frame leeway as overlapping numbers and air dodges are coming out frame 2, etc]
However, raw hit stun will be 56-60~ frames, meaning that in training mode you're gaining SIXTEEN FRAMES extra leeway to have this register
As even ESAM can seemingly mess up an 18 frame leeway beyond perfect execution to get this to combo, it seems pretty unlikely that with the reality of how long before hand people can air dodge that this is even remotely feasible to be pulled off in tournament play, barely scraping by the theoretical window that exists for it.
"But Shaya, that just means that it's a 50/50 if you assume perfect execution which can even be failed with an extra quarter of a second by the best Pikachu in the world"
Well, yeah, you cannot expect people to react to Pikachu's 13 frame start up of thunder, but seeing as it's his only kill confirm and in a real tournament environment players can undoubtedly achieve 10-ish frame anticipation, this **** just isn't remotely real unless the opponent panics or has below average reaction.
-------
Now time and time again the whole Pikachu RAR thunder thing comes up, and all we hear is "it's guaranteed" over and over again... At the same time we frequently hear that their match up spread is amazing and that they're undoubtedly top tier...
Yet none of these pikachus are able to get themselves to a tournament and start building up a reputation that their players aren't delusional and actually have
real things to worry about?.
So there it is
If you or anyone EVER bring up training mode as proof of things ever again, expect infractions.
YES IT WILL PROBABLY WORK ON WIFI; go to a tournament!
So does it suck that ESAM doesn't even know training mode isn't accurate?
Yes.
It sucks A LOT.
But hopefully we won't be putting the meta behind 6 months+ while people unknowingly or otherwise lie to players about character's abilities to the point at which we get to have this ****ty argument with Pikachus every other week.
