Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nobie]

I feel like there's something odd at work about the expectations people have about characters, and that it's possibly tied to Smash as a history of games where certain options were just incredibly good 9 times out of 10.

In Melee, Fox is considered a glass cannon because he is absurdly powerful but can get combo'd like crazy if he messes up. The catch on top of this is that Fox is the most execution-intense character in Melee. Shine canceling is really tight, even the act of short hopping consistently, something most characters take for granted, requires a good deal of practice, but when you master these tools you have things like a 1-frame invincible instantly cancelable move that can take stocks at low percents when gimping. You get an invincible ledge dash that leads into arguably the best up smash in the game. Essentially, on some level, if you master the extremely difficult tech you have almost removed the need to play rock paper scissors in a fair manner. This is all tied to the whole 20XX thing, because why did Hax abandon Captain Falcon? Because Captain Falcon NEEDS reads to defeat the top characters, but Fox can just do things that only require you to read at a kindergarten level because his tools are just that good (but of course a brilliant mind can make Fox even scarier).

What happens when you master all of Ryu's difficult tech? What happens when you control Ryu perfectly? The answer is that you end up with a large and expansive toolbox that calls on you to find the right tool for the job. However, nothing is a one-size-fits-most shortcut. Mastering execution doesn't obviate the need for reads, it makes you better equipped to make reads.

In other words, I think there is a tendency in Smash (but also in a lot of other fighting games) for players to desire a scenario where sufficient technical skill can eliminate guess work. This is why people concentrate on Ryu's combos, because they want guarantees. This is why people keep trying to find option selects, because why play RPS when you can set it up so that either Rock or Paper appears depending on which one's better? This is also why SFV keeps patching out option selects, because the game is going, "Stop that, you. TAKE A CHANCE."

That's also why a lot of these nerfs happen.

Compare Melee's glass cannon of Fox to Smash 4's glass cannon of Mewtwo. As strong as Mewtwo's become, and as many things he can do, his frame data is such that he always has to worry about making the wrong decision at any given point.

 

[Gawain]

It's pretty pointless to draw arbitrary lines like top 5, top 10 or top 15 when determining the capabilities of a character. It's clear enough that characters can be put into certain clusters in terms of their competitive viability, but within those clusters (some might have like 15 characters) player representation can completely switch things around. (oh right, these "clusters" are called tiers)

Undoubtedly some characters have more potential than others, but any character will absolutely shoot up 10 out of 10 times simply if a really good player picks them up, yet all of that success is often attributed to the character. Yes, there are reasons why a top player decides to pick up a certain character over another, but these people don't have any superhuman ability to see the hidden potential of a character no one else has ever considered before. Often it's most likely just "alright, this character seems capable and interesting to me personally". Consider that, and the fact that there's a relatively limited number of these really good players.

Robin, with no buffs from any patches, was considered top 10-15 early on just because Nairo used her.

Nairo stopped using her in tournaments, and she fell to bottom 15 very quickly. MK was considered to be in the 20-30 range before Leo happened, then he slowly made his way to arguable top 5.

It's completely irrelevant whether Greninja/Pikachu/Mewtwo etc is 15th or 25th. They're all probably in the same rough cluster and the biggest factor why one would rise up above the others is a top player picking them up and developing them really hard, or the meta changing in a really considerable way.



After reading this part I had to go back and check what my first message on the first CCI thread was, turns out it was me ranting about a reaction time of 15 frames or less being unrealistic unless you're already anticipating something. good start(?)

Funnily enough people still occasionally debate about it and will probably keep on debating.

This guy knows what's up. Differentiating tiers and spots outside top 15 or so is pointless: guess what? No one under there has any of your oh so precious "muh results".

Also what's with the combo counter lying thing? How is that still a debate? It has some bugs(Ganons side b to dair is not a combo, game) but it's reliable for the most part. The only thing about airdodging early that commonly pops up is that you get more time to followup if you hit them out of a missed tech( IE stomp into knee true combos at mid percents if you stomp them out of a flop but not otherwise)

As long as you account for those fringe situations its perfectly suitable.

 

[bc1910]

Arbitrary top X rankings are pointless. It's all about the strength of the characters in and around certain groups. For example, I'm pretty convinced that we have a top 6 who are all around the same level (unless Bayo ends up a head above the rest) followed by another 6 or 7 characters depending on the state of MK, followed by Pikachu being the best high tier rather than the worst top tier (still top 14 though) and then the Greninja/Corrin/Mewtwo clan in the same tier. It's far more important to belong to one of these groups than your exact position within it.

I still think Sheik is top 6. But on Sheik - her throw game is so much weaker. Seriously, after 70% her options all become 50/50s and shortly after will stop working altogether. Shielding against this character is actually a good idea now. Whether Sheik will stay on the level of Diddy or fall to the level of Mario will be interesting to observe.

I don't think this patch changed the top 14, though the order did reshuffle. MK and Pikachu's positions within it are the most suspect IMO. The "top 14" label is less meaningful in this patch, and equally looks more crack-able for those outside it.

 

[Browny]

Personally, I am REALLY interested to see how the likes of Zero, Mr.R and Void now fare against other top level players now (provided they stick with sheik).

No one ever doubted that the reason they performed as well as they did was because of their skill and its not like sheik carried them but soon we are going to have measurable evidence of just how much of a gap there was between them and everyone else and how much of it was attributed to Sheik.

 

[Mili]

Personally, I am REALLY interested to see how the likes of Zero, Mr.R and Void now fare against other top level players now (provided they stick with sheik).

No one ever doubted that the reason they performed as well as they did was because of their skill and its not like sheik carried them but soon we are going to have measurable evidence of just how much of a gap there was between them and everyone else and how much of it was attributed to Sheik.

Next minute, they're all playing Bayonetta and we don't see the comparison.

rip

 

[EnhaloTricks]

I get the feeling that ledge play/edge guarding in this game is going to get a lot more prominent at the higher levels. VoiD already edgeguards pretty heavily, but he still has a tendency to sit content with dtilting at the ledge to catch the 2 frames. Tyrant, however, frequently goes FAR offstage and it's very exciting to watch. Hell, just jumping offstage exerts pressure and FORCES the other play to make a decision. It's your game now; not their's.

Recoveries in this game are so good - for the most part - and that is used as the main argument as to reading ledge options rather than going for an edgeguard. To me, the opposite is true for the most part. Because recoveries are so good we need to go offstage more; try and get the early kills. Gimping is still very prominent for most of the cast (typically outside of high/top tier it's more common). As Fox, I tend to conservatively edgeguard: reading their air dodge and catching them with nair or fair drag down -> footstool. As Ness going offstage isn't an issue at all and against Rosa I frequently follow her off. Awestin is really good at this.

As an aside, I find the lack of people challenging Rosa/(D)Pit's/Greninja's/even Pikachu's (among others) recoveries mind boggling. It's their most vulnerable state and can lead to early kills (btw, iStudying's recovery mixups vs ESAM with hydro pumping away and then to ledge is genius).

With the nerfs showing a pattern of getting rid of kill confirms and 50/50's I'm expecting top players to do it more. Sheik has one of, if not the, best recoveries in the game. Why don't we see more Sheik's go offstage? She can go to the blast zone and make it back! That's half the reason I find Karna's Sheik more stressful to play against than Denti's old Sheik (I'm in TX, if you haven't picked up on it ).

The risk/reward is pretty high, and I get most people don't want to deal with an almost uncertain thing, but, to me, it's worth it.

 

[Luco]

Welp, my first post talked about how the game mechanics didn't support SH AD's anymore (before we knew about AD cancelling) and was around the time people thought DHD was top 5 and Pikachu and Luigi were the worst characters in the game.

In any case, edge-guarding is totally hype and should be more of a thing, but it's understandable why it isn't used against certain characters or even much at all - many characters can disrupt or AD through the edge-guard, recover and then suddenly reverse the situation. Going for edge-guards is fundamentally risky, just with huge reward attached to it. Think about all the times someone's tried to edge-guard you but you've made it back and now you're sitting on the ledge waiting for them to recover after you (or going after them yourself).

A lot of people aren't game to try it because it can lose them stage control and even switch advantage / disadvantage states between them and the opponent.

That being said there are edge-guarding cues people need to get better at realising and dealing with. Many character can cover Fox using side-B to recover and STILL be able to go offstage if he decides instead to use upB. People don't challenge Rosa / Greninja / the pits' recoveries in smart ways, whilst some characters can poop right over their recovery options all at once. If a character has been put in a position where they only really have one or two ways to get back on-stage, then you can go out and threaten them with aerials. Sometimes those characters can't afford to AD.

It sounds elementary, but it still happens at high and top level today. When it's done well it changes games in massive ways - remember this set between Mew^2 and M2K (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2LRDAQr6VY ) where you see Mew^2 go offstage on Dream Land, simply being there forces an AD out of M2K because he's scared Fair will push him too far out to recover and Mew^2 waits out the AD and rising Fairs for the stock. Threat is so big and can be used so potently for edge-guarding.

I used Cloud as an example, but for the record I don't think Cloud's recovery is easy to edge-guard, I just think Mew^2 played his offstage exactly right.

 

[Mili]

Browny https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QBEH_9czys, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Crf_PtpMtd0 rip guess i was wrong

2GGaming released two very high-level sets of players who's characters were nerfed in 1.1.5.

I don't know if it just me, but watching both and seems so interesting now. They're doing the same MK and Sheik things but I feel like they're using more options than usual (VoiD even killed with multiple D-Smashes, lol super buff) but they're still both great characters. I definitely think both Sheik and MK are VERY viable, they just got more... fair.

 

[bc1910]

Let's talk in the current patch.

Clearly a solid character. Results are in that good-but-not-amazing bracket. He sat around 18th in 1.1.4, about as good as Toon Link. Still, we're seeing a lot of arguments over who the best Pokemon is out of Pikachu, Greninja and Mewtwo, with no mention of this guy.

This isn't to say that I think Lucario contends for best Pokemon because IMO he doesn't, since nothing should have changed to make him better than Pikachu. My point is that he's not really getting mentioned, when he should still be about as strong as at least Mewtwo.

I don't think the Sheik nerfs help Lucario as much as others. One the one hand, he had a good MU with her prepatch and could well have the advantage now. On the other hand, there are now other characters such as Mario who can go toe-to-toe with/potentially beat Sheik who have better MU spreads elsewhere. Cloud is uttery horrible for Lucario and I can't see ZSS having got much better. Bayo could be bad as well, although since she seems to fluctuate between killing at 0 and 100+ with very little in-between it could be a volatile MU.

I think Greninja is slightly better than him now due to his own buffs and disproportionately high benefit from the Sheik nerf. Mewtwo I feel is around Lucario's level.

Where do you think Lucario sits among the other Pokemon? And more broadly, where do you think he fits on a tier list?

 

[Fatmanonice]

You're using horribly outdated examples (before Dabuz reached the level he is at today), and the burden of proof falls on you, not the other way around. That said, this recent example should tell you everything.

Somethings to note:

-My examples were "horribly outdated" but these "recent" matches are still three months old. Also, Dabuz has pretty much been a monster since this game came out, I don't think he just suddenly "got good." Plus, there seems to be a lot of evidence these two don't play each other very often anyways. One of the best players in the world VS one of the best players of a specific character. Dabuz kind of has a knack of stomping all but the very best players into the mud anyways unless they have decent experience against him specifically. Even if you ignore this, it's still just two sets in the same day. For what evidence is out there, these were the one and only times that John has fought Dabuz's Rosalina.

-Rosalina doesn't just have to crouch behind Luma to pretty much win this match up as people implied. Dabuz had to go full aggro and basically suffocate John Numbers to win. Wii Fit does have options against Rosalina midrange and isn't totally helpless if Rosalina stands still.

-Wii Fit doesn't have an issue knocking Luma away despite what people were saying. For whatever reason, John was even using dash attack to do this so Luma is hardly a stone pillar in this match up. In fact, in these matches, you can see Dabuz running away from John as soon as Luma is dead. Once Luma was back, it was back to full aggro.

-Wii Fit's hitboxes aren't too small to hit Luma or Rosa and this isn't the biggest set back. If these videos pointed out anything, it's that landing is difficult for Wii Fit against Rosalina and that a big part of the game plan is getting Wii Fit off the ground and keeping her there.

-Point blank sun salutation is effective in this match up, so are ftilt and bair.

Also, some reasons why I believed what I did (aside from my own experiences):

Customs Off, I actually believe this matchup is closer to even. Either 0 or +0.5 in Rosa's favor.

The key to this matchup is entirely based around Wii Fit's ability to take Luma out with relative ease. Her Dash Attack, Ftilt, and Uair will all knock Luma away regardless of his current damage and Bair and Sun Salutation will knock Luma away when he has been lightly damaged. Of course, Rosa's ability to space Wii Fit with Luma is always an ever-present threat, but Wii Fit's standard style of spacing with projectiles and pseudo-burst options, I believe, is sufficient to navigate the neutral in this matchup. These three moves are going to be what you see most often:

- Dash Attack, which will knock Luma away and thus reduce the damage of a punish if Rosa shields, regardless of whether or not Luma survives.
- Dash Grab, which leads into Fthrow/Bthrow on Rosa > Ftilt on Luma.
- Sun Salutation, which can negotiate Rosa's spacing game to a degree because she can stay out of range while constantly threatening to knock Luma away. Rosa also has to be careful about Pulling at the wrong time because it might lead into a free grab for Wii Fit which will also spell death for Luma.

That's the neutral for Wii Fit in a nutshell. She definitely has the tools to keep up with Rosa's presence, although I would say Rosa still has a very slight leg up, as long as she's very careful not to allow Luma to get killed too early. Being ready to slap Wii Fit's dash attempts with spaced moves before they reach Rosa, as well as Pulling Sun Salutations with proper timing are going to be paramount here.

As well as:

Also, I would say Wii Fit's worst matchups, in order from worst to not worst, are:

Kirby
Sheik
Ness
Fox
Mario
Villager
Falco

Everyone below Kirby isn't bad enough to warrant secondaries. And I know it's strange that Falco is there, but that little bugger does hit rather hard, and his attacking Reflector does mess with our neutral pretty heavily, that's for sure.

Rosalina isn't even listed and I don't know if John has made a public statement on the match up since or even if his fights with Dabuz significantly changed his opinions.

So, in conclusion, there's more evidence for Dabuz squashing John Numbers (note the tournaments I mentioned in my last post) than Rosalina squashing Wii Fit.

 

[John12346]

Somethings to note:

-My examples were "horribly outdated" but these "recent" matches are still three months old. Also, Dabuz has pretty much been a monster since this game came out, I don't think he just suddenly "got good." Plus, there seems to be a lot of evidence these two don't play each other very often anyways. One of the best players in the world VS one of the best players of a specific character. Dabuz kind of has a knack of stomping all but the very best players into the mud anyways unless they have decent experience against him specifically. Even if you ignore this, it's still just two sets in the same day. For what evidence is out there, these were the one and only times that John has fought Dabuz's Rosalina.

-Rosalina doesn't just have to crouch behind Luma to pretty much win this match up as people implied. Dabuz had to go full aggro and basically suffocate John Numbers to win. Wii Fit does have options against Rosalina midrange and isn't totally helpless if Rosalina stands still.

-Wii Fit doesn't have an issue knocking Luma away despite what people were saying. For whatever reason, John was even using dash attack to do this so Luma is hardly a stone pillar in this match up. In fact, in these matches, you can see Dabuz running away from John as soon as Luma is dead. Once Luma was back, it was back to full aggro.

-Wii Fit's hitboxes aren't too small to hit Luma or Rosa and this isn't the biggest set back. If these videos pointed out anything, it's that landing is difficult for Wii Fit against Rosalina and that a big part of the game plan is getting Wii Fit off the ground and keeping her there.

-Point blank sun salutation is effective in this match up, so are ftilt and bair.

Also, some reasons why I believed what I did (aside from my own experiences):



As well as:



Rosalina isn't even listed and I don't know if John has made a public statement on the match up since or even if his fights with Dabuz significantly changed his opinions.

So, in conclusion, there's more evidence for Dabuz squashing John Numbers (note the tournaments I mentioned in my last post) than Rosalina squashing Wii Fit.

On the Rosa matchup, my stance on the matchup ratio hasn't changed much (I still believe it's close to even, but slightly in Rosa's favor). Dabuz just plays like a crazy person and it's more him than Rosa that bops me.

Of note, my opinions on how the matchup play out HAVE changed a good deal, so I'll just note what's different from the above quoted below:

Here are the revisions:
- When Wii Fit grabs Rosa, she can Uthrow her and have time to get at least two clean hits on Luma, even if Rosa got thrown at 0.
- Bthrow is too slow, and Luma will hit Wii Fit before the animation finishes.
- Fthrow is not recommended because when you start attacking Luma after, you're just going to knock him towards Rosa, making things difficult.
- Even though Dash Attack launches Luma, it's still next to useless because Shield exists.
- Sun Salutation is a lot more important than I initially gave it credit for. In addition to everything I already mentioned, Rosa cannot dash forward, because then the Sun will hit her instead. Sun can also hit Luma if Rosa tries to block with anything other than a full Shield.
- You can also guarantee a kill on Luma if Rosa performs a low recovery, by using an outwards facing Uair from below right as she grabs the edge. You can try following up with this if you attempt and miss your Header spike.
- Wii Fit's ledge attack covers a HUGE amount of horizontal space, and will launch Luma at any percent, meaning that Rosa's punish on you if she blocks it will be trivial at best. If she wants to avoid this happening, she has to stand waaay outside of Jab pressure range which is nice.

 

[Fatmanonice]

John12346

While you're here, I have three questions to ask as a fellow Wii Fit player:

1. What do you think of the Sheik match up now that she got dunked on by nerfs? In my own experience, it's significantly more manageable but I have to reiterate that I'm from Cousinkiss, Midwest and you actually have played (and beaten) some of the best Sheiks in the world even before the patches.

2. What about Cloud? I've heard you say it's surprisingly doable and possibly a winning match up for us shortly after he came out. Have your thoughts changed recently?

3. What about Bayo? I don't know if you've weighed on this publicly yet but I'm curious what your general thoughts are on the B**** Witch and the match up.

 

[nannerham]

Let's talk in the current patch.

Clearly a solid character. Results are in that good-but-not-amazing bracket. He sat around 18th in 1.1.4, about as good as Toon Link. Still, we're seeing a lot of arguments over who the best Pokemon is out of Pikachu, Greninja and Mewtwo, with no mention of this guy.

This isn't to say that I think Lucario contends for best Pokemon because IMO he doesn't, since nothing should have changed to make him better than Pikachu. My point is that he's not really getting mentioned, when he should still be about as strong as at least Mewtwo.

I don't think the Sheik nerfs help Lucario as much as others. One the one hand, he had a good MU with her prepatch and could well have the advantage now. On the other hand, there are now other characters such as Mario who can go toe-to-toe with/potentially beat Sheik who have better MU spreads elsewhere. Cloud is uttery horrible for Lucario and I can't see ZSS having got much better. Bayo could be bad as well, although since she seems to fluctuate between killing at 0 and 100+ with very little in-between it could be a volatile MU.

I think Greninja is slightly better than him now due to his own buffs and disproportionately high benefit from the Sheik nerf. Mewtwo I feel is around Lucario's level.

Where do you think Lucario sits among the other Pokemon? And more broadly, where do you think he fits on a tier list?

I posted my thoughts on the bayo MU in the last page so feel free to give it a read if you'd like, but to answer your question he's a solid hight tier to me. While its true cloud kinda bops him none of the other top/high tier really beat him badly, him having the best shiek MU and debatably the best bayo MU out of all the pokemon is a pretty nice thing to have under your belt, he goes even with rosa, the other characters that do well against him are incredibly easy to execute his kill confirms on (especially diddy) and the threat of aura/rage is there in every MU he plays, the fact that he can end your stock within a mere 3-5 hits while have great kill confirms makes him top 20 at worst imo. To answer your other question he's probably the 3rd best pokemon right now gren and mewtwo are probably better due to having better tools and more consistent MU spreads.

 

[Zult]

I posted my thoughts on the bayo MU in the last page so feel free to give it a read if you'd like, but to answer your question he's a solid hight tier to me. While its true cloud kinda bops him none of the other top/high tier really beat him badly, him having the best shiek MU and debatably the best bayo MU out of all the mons is a pretty nice thing to have under your belt, he goes even with rosa, the other character that do well against him are incredibly easy to execute his kill confirms on (especially diddy) and the threat of aura/rage is there in every MU he plays, the fact that he can end your stock within a mere 3-5 hits while have great kill confirms makes him top 20 at worst imo. To answer your other question he's probably the 3rd best mon right now gren and mewtwo are probably better due to having better tools and more consistent MU spreads.

"Mons"? I assume you mean Pokemons? And I don't think the Bayo Lucario match up is that great for Lucario honestly. Greninja has been giving me the hardest trouble out of all the Pokemon. Next being Mewtwo.

 

[sedrf]

Any tournies of interest happening this weekends besides outfoxx'd

 

[Sonicninja115]

Any tournies of interest happening this weekends besides outfoxx'd

FOW saga is happening. There is an article on the front page.

 

[IsmaR]

2GGT: FOW Saga is tomorrow. Among the confirmed are Nairo, FOW, VoiD, Larry Lurr, Keitaro, falln, K9, SS and Z

 

[sedrf]

thank you also remembered a regional in texas is happening to.
Also is there a european national/regional happening?

 

[Planty]

Why are we addicted to deciding which character is the best in their series?

he goes even with rosa,

I have absolutely no Lucario experience so how does this happen? I just don't see how he deals with Rosalina in footsies and survives long enough to use aura.

 

[John12346]

1. What do you think of the Sheik match up now that she got dunked on by nerfs? In my own experience, it's significantly more manageable but I have to reiterate that I'm from Cousinkiss, Midwest and you actually have played (and beaten) some of the best Sheiks in the world even before the patches.




2. What about Cloud? I've heard you say it's surprisingly doable and possibly a winning match up for us shortly after he came out. Have your thoughts changed recently?




3. What about Bayo? I don't know if you've weighed on this publicly yet but I'm curious what your general thoughts are on the B**** Witch and the match up.

1. Sheik I'm unsure about because I haven't gotten a chance to play a serious one in bracket or even friendlies yet. However, pre-patch, I can affirm that 99% of Sheik's kills on Wii Fit were from Dthrow Uair, because Wii Fit is one of those characters capable of circumventing Sheik edgeguards. Now that she's allowed to just shield while onstage at kill percents, Wii Fit SHOULD in theory be living until well past the 200s on every stock now. I've had plenty of friendlies with Sheik pre-patch, and if I was somehow able to get past the window where the 50/50 of Dthrow Uair was still in effect, then I was generally able to survive up into the mid-high 200% range.

The reduction in Fair and Needle range is pretty big, too. It SHOULD mean that Wii Fit will be able to negotiate her a little better in the neutral with her Bair and Sun spacing.

But again, I'll have to actually fight some Sheiks to confirm all of this, but this MU got a LOT easier for us compared to many other characters, I would say.



2. Cloud is tough and tricky. I don't have a lot of data on him yet, but you're generally just going to be running away from him a lot. If he's stubbornly charging his Limit, do not allow yourself to get baited into approaching, because he'll eat that up for breakfast. Either accept the brief respite and use the time to heal yourself up a little (you should be able to get 8% to 10% back + Deep Breathing buff), or stand in a position where it will be dangerous for Cloud to stay put. But don't get any closer.

If he has Limit, just shield if he gets too close, and run away like crazy if your shield is weak enough to be broken with a Limit Cross Slash. Throw yourself off the stage to get away from him if you need to.

Also, you need to go nuts on edgeguarding this guy. If you knock him further than midway to the blastzone, do not charge Sun or Deep Breathing, just get your butt off the stage as fast as you can and try to finish the job (or make him waste his Limit, if he has it).

Cloud probably wins this MU +1.



3. Bayonetta I also don't have enough data on yet, either. But for now the general strategy of shielding her approaches and trying to punish the landing lag after she uses Specials is what you'll want to keep in mind. Learning how to DI her combo strings is also paramount.

I think Bayonetta is a strong, and maybe dumb character, but I don't think she's broken by any means. My guesstimate is that she wins the MU +1.

 

[ぱみゅ]

As for important tournaments this weekend, Mexico will have a "Large Regional" kind of event: https://www.twitch.tv/ligasmashdf

 

[Radical Larry]

As for important tournaments this weekend, Mexico will have a "Large Regional" kind of event: https://www.twitch.tv/ligasmashdf

Anyone playing a low or bottom tier?

 

[nannerham]

Why are we addicted to deciding which character is the best in their series?

I have absolutely no Lucario experience so how does this happen? I just don't see how he deals with Rosalina in footsies and survives long enough to use aura.

Lucario doesn't need to have much aura to net kills in the MU, 3 of lucario's moves fastest moves (fair, dair, dash attack) can put luma into tumble when he has 0% aura and the number of moves only increases the more aura he has (ftilt, utilt, bair, all of these moves put luma into tumble at 60%) and the hitbox of uthrow flings luma incredibly far away so he doesn't have much of a problem getting rid of luma. The way lucario manuvers his b-reverses and wave bounces is crucial to the MU and thanks to rosa's tall frame catching her in ASC (aura sphere charge) combos and kill confirms is easier than most characters even if lucario has a low-moderate amount of aura she can lose stocks at 90% and with a recent kill confirm it can even be as low as 60%, but its important to not become predicatable with your wavebounces and b-reverses or else you'll eat a hefty punish, the neutral consists of a lot of movement and mixups on lucario's end.

Offstage is a where rosa shines, since lucario's extreme speed doesn't have a hitbox for most of the animtion you can keep swatting him away and if he doesn't recover at the right angle when he aims for onstage then he's a sitting duck and you can do pretty much whatever you want to him, if rosa is offstage there's a 2 things lucario can do: either cover the ledge with dair if rosa recovers low or swat rosa away with nair, but if both of those fail then you lose stage control so covering the ledge with ASC is the best option most of the time so all in all rosa has a much more potent edgeguarding game.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Anyone playing a low or bottom tier?

Not sure if Regi fully switched from Mr. Game and Watch to Corrin.
Or if Addy fully switched from DeDeDe to Cloud.
Or Chota switched from Little Mac.
Or Andy will be there at all.

I only know a local from here is there and he uses Little Mac, though he seems o use Rosalina a lot more recently.

 

[sedrf]

there's pollo who plays bowser.

 

[juddy96]

Not sure if Regi fully switched from Mr. Game and Watch to Corrin.
Or if Addy fully switched from DeDeDe to Cloud.
Or Chota switched from Little Mac.
Or Andy will be there at all.

I only know a local from here is there and he uses Little Mac, though he seems o use Rosalina a lot more recently.

This tourney will be biggest one this weekend entrants wise, except for possibly 2GGT (which is currently at 223) as this one is at 288. There are also 3 European regionals with 100+, Battlegrounds 2 in TX, OUTFOXX'D in IN, another possible 100+ tourney in MN, 1 or 2 possible 100+ tourneys in Australia, a couple Japanese tourneys, and a tourney in 9/10 provinces in Canada. Busy busy weekend.

 

[Aaron1997]

Japanese Tourney going on right now. https://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

Spoiler: Notables

Choco
Kei
Umeki
Songun
Shimatake
Onbu
Mow

 

[Radical Larry]

You know, if people started using Ganondorf's N-Air and jab more often, they'll find his MUs much more bearable.
But sadly, the Ganondorf players would rather use less reliable and unsafe options like F-Air or F-Tilt over them, still.

N-Air is literally the best N-Air of the entirety of the cast, for not what it does in combo ability, but for what it does with damage and with edge-guarding. The attack is frame 7, hits with 19% damage and it's pretty much the best edge-guarding and shield poking hybrid tool in the game. You have an attack that has the range, the damage and the speed that anyone could really want. It's not the absolute best, but it's the best in damage output and might be the best N-Air for edge-guarding, though possibly beaten by Bayonetta, Link and Cloud's.

Jab is just...how can you NOT use his jab? Frame 6 hitbox (7 if you hit with the other hitboxes), great damage scaling, most powerful single jab in the game with 10% damage at best. Great shield poking ability and usability in combos thanks to its angle.

Overall, if people actually started looking at Ganondorf, with all of the buffs he had received, he actually has more combos than meets the eye. There's the misconception that Ganondorf is primarily a no-combo or one-two combo character, but I've found that he can do up to 4 to 6 total hits in combos; D-Throw > Late Dash > N-Air is a prominent thing you would need. Hell, Late Dash > Jab > Dash > U-Air/N-Air is another good combo he can use at some lower damages; the best part is, is that it may be a 50/50, but it's actually very safe to use. The buffs he's received are starting to come full circle as his combo ability has been raised; so if there's one more patch that gives him something better for one of his attacks, it'll be truly full circle.

I really want to see Ganondorf in a major tournament with the updates on him. Because of the buffs, there's no reason as to having Ganondorf be a bottom tier character. I just don't even see it. He's now got a reliable jab and a decent OoS option with jab, better combo ability and kill ability, as well as many get-off-me moves on him now. The only thing that could possibly be slowing him down (pun intended) is his slow speed on certain attacks and slow mobility; those are his biggest problems (pun intended again) other than being a big character and having no projectile, something he doesn't necessarily need with his astonishing power.

 

[C0rvus]

Do you really think Ganon mains are all wrong?
"If only they used nair and jab more, his MUs get better" makes no sense. Good Ganondorfs know how to play Ganondorf.

I am excited to see what Verm, Ganonthebeast, and Pon can do with new Ganon. My guess is not much better than before, but still. High level Ganon is exciting.

 

[Radical Larry]

Do you really think Ganon mains are all wrong?
"If only they used nair and jab more, his MUs get better" makes no sense. Good Ganondorfs know how to play Ganondorf.

I am excited to see what Verm, Ganonthebeast, and Pon can do with new Ganon. My guess is not much better than before, but still. High level Ganon is exciting.

I don't necessarily think all Ganon mains are wrong, but Ganon players fully across the board ought to use these to actually make themselves far better than before, and it makes some of his MUs better overall when more tools are utilized. But I didn't mean that Ganondorf players don't know how to play him; I'm just wondering IF they'll utilize these new buffed aspects of him. But if it sounded like I made it seem like Ganon mains are wrong, sorry.

Secondly, I am excited to see what the high level Ganons can do, but I think it's going to be much better, unlike what you think.

 

[Megamang]

Ganon is more interesting and exciting as an underdog anyways.

But no, nair won't make chars that mollywop him in neutral suddenly have to respect him, or chars that hard wall him suddenly approach. It helps in many mus, but not the unbearable ones.

 

[C0rvus]

Agreed. A high tier Ganon would have to be a fundamentally different character, or have some busted stuff under his belt. Would not be fun to deal with at all.

Sometimes even Bowser is a very hard matchup. He punishes mistakes so hard and kills so consistently. Very frustrating matchup, and he's only mid tier.

 

[Radical Larry]

Ganon is more interesting and exciting as an underdog anyways.

And then one day he gets that one buff no one asked for but everyone will like in the end.
But I do like seeing Ganondorf in competitive play; it gives me some hope if they win an entire tournament.

 

[HeavyLobster]

You know, if people started using Ganondorf's N-Air and jab more often, they'll find his MUs much more bearable.
But sadly, the Ganondorf players would rather use less reliable and unsafe options like F-Air or F-Tilt over them, still.

N-Air is literally the best N-Air of the entirety of the cast, for not what it does in combo ability, but for what it does with damage and with edge-guarding. The attack is frame 7, hits with 19% damage and it's pretty much the best edge-guarding and shield poking hybrid tool in the game. You have an attack that has the range, the damage and the speed that anyone could really want.

Please stop talking. Most Dorf players have been looking to use Jab more over the course of the timespan of a week and a half that it's actually been worth using. Nair has pretty much always been used more often than Fair, and it's not even Ganon's best iteration of the move, much less the best Nair in the game. Fair is actually safer on shield anyways for what it's worth. Believe it or not, most competent Ganon mains do not simply throw out suboptimal moves just for funsies, especially not in his toughest MUs.

 

[wedl!!]

Ganondorf's nair is a great move, but I fail to see how it's better than, say, 's or 's. I also fail to see how it just stops characters from walling him in neutral. Sure it's intimidating to get hit by it but it's not like Ganon has the speed of a truck hurtling down the freeway. He's a snail with a shotgun.

 

[Radical Larry]

Ganondorf's nair is a great move, but I fail to see how it's better than, say, 's or 's. I also fail to see how it just stops characters from walling him in neutral. Sure it's intimidating to get hit by it but it's not like Ganon is a truck hurtling down the freeway. He's a snail with a shotgun.

Well, it's an attack that can challenge certain aerials that come right for him if he jumps at the optimal time; I've managed to block many ZSS Flip Jumps from happening because of that move. Like I said in my first post, it's the power behind the attack for its speed that makes it a very great N-Air.

In Neutral, it's not a good move, but when it's used in mid-air, it becomes a very optimal move that is very great at getting the extra range you need against your opponent. By no means is it a good kill move outside of being close to the horizontal blast zones, but it's a good move to keep opponents off of you due to its speed and a good move to end combos with!

Like you said, he's a snail with a shotgun, but in some situations, he's more like a wrecking ball. It's not the most optimal option, but it's a very decent and reliable option, IMO.

Now against the likes of Corrin or Cloud's N-Airs, he can't hold a candle to them. But to the likes of Charizard, DK and Link's N-Airs, he just wins with that range of his (and with DK, Ganondorf just hits 3 frames before DK). If the attack only AC'd in a shorthop, then he'd be like a steamroller on opponents. (But if the attack has less landing lag, then he'll be like a car hitting you.)

 

[HFlash]

N-Air is literally the best N-Air of the entirety of the cast,

You gonna say Ganon's Nair is better than Nair?

 

[Radical Larry]

You gonna say Ganon's Nair is better than Nair?

And YOU cut out what I named it best at! I literally had to put big, bolded letters where it needed it most now.

 

[ARGHETH]

And YOU cut out what I named it best at! I literally had to put big, bolded letters where it needed it most now.

Your sentence structure implied that it was the best in the game, though. Your post said that it was the best despite not being a combo breaker.

 

[Fatmanonice]

You gonna say Ganon's Nair is better than Nair?

Or or or or or or or or or or or or or . I'd argue that all of these are more functional and more useful than Ganondorf's. This isn't to say that Ganondorf's isn't good but it's down the line from being the absolute best in the game.