Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Radical Larry]

Your sentence structure implied that it was the best in the game, though. Your post said that it was the best despite not being a combo breaker.

Well I fixed up the sentence and paragraph overall to hopefully fix it. Also, the attack could be able to disrupt certain combos, it's not a true combo breaker. The best it could do to break combos is if the attack was purely physical and had less range than his N-Air at about the same speed.

Or or or or or or or or or or or or or . I'd argue that all of these are more functional and more useful than Ganondorf's. This isn't to say that Ganondorf's isn't good but it's down the line from being the absolute best in the game.

Most of these I can see, but Olimar? How did his extremely short range and unconventional-looking N-Air pop out?
And you forgot to mention Link and Falco's N-Air...and Samus's.

 

[HFlash]

not what it does in combo ability,

Using that to filter the criteria for "best nair" is kinda limiting since most of the nairs in the game combo. Technically, the only other Nair in the game that does the kind of damage Ganon's does in a single input is . Ganon doesn't have the best anything in this game. Surprise, surprise, he's bottom 15 for a reason. Not that a Ganon player can't be competitively successful, but it's alot harder to do so with him than the majority of the cast.

Also, the attack could be able to disrupt certain combos, it's not a true combo breaker.

and nair easily out class Ganon's as a combo breaker.

 

[Solfiner]

Shulk's Nair is also fantastic.

 

[Radical Larry]

Luigi and Yoshi do that because they have faster N-Airs. If Ganondorf was blessed with a faster N-Air, like a frame 5 N-Air, then it's over for a lot of characters. If he was given a frame 3 N-Air, then no character could even touch him unless they have a disjoint. That's literally the fastest an N-Air can be (correct me if I'm wrong) and characters like Falco own it (and Falco's is not even a good combo breaker).

Combo breaker N-Airs are very confusing, since Link's can be considered one, but Falco's is very unreliable for breaking combos, even though there is a 4 frame difference to their attacks. It has to be positioning or range that does the trick.

Shulk's Nair is also fantastic.

Until your opponent shields, then you're just ****ed.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Radical Larry's point about Nair is actually somewhat true. While I don't agree with his point about it being the best Nair in the game (that goes to either Marth or Roy), it is pretty good in the air due to it being able to cover a lot of the foe's options (particulary airdodge). The move is also pretty good at breaking SOME combos such as ZSS's Uair strings at lower percents. That being said, I've found Ganon's Uair to be an overall better combo breaker since it can immediately send the opponent away, while Ganon's Nair can be interrupted and punished if he lands before the second hitbox comes out or if the two hits of Nair do not properly connect. Its also slightly faster which is pretty useful.

As for Ganon's Jab, I'm finding that its still pretty crappy as an OOS option since its still pretty slow for a jab (frame 6 / 7). That being said, the changes to its endlag and Startup make it one of Ganon's best Pokes since its his fastest move and has really good range. Its also pretty good at getting Foes off of Ganon now since its safer and faster, although it still isn't fast enough to break out of combos like some other Jabs are.

All that out of the way, I don't think the issue with Ganon's current performance stem from Ganon players playing the character incorrectly, but rather his bad speed and grabs. His poor speed means that he will be struggling greatly with camping against characters with good mobility / rolls. His bad grab only exacerbates this issue since he can't deal with Shields and Shield camping (particularly against Zelda, who can Sheild camp Ganon at kill percents and KO him w/ Up B). The buffs to Flame Choke and Wizkick help mitigate these issues, but they still aren't enough since Wizkick is still horribly unsafe if the opponent doesn't roll, while Flame choke is still really slow. The developers really need to address Ganon's grab and slightly buff his speed for him to make an impact at tournaments.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Most of these I can see, but Olimar? How did his extremely short range and unconventional-looking N-Air pop out?
And you forgot to mention Link and Falco's N-Air...and Samus's.

Fast fall nair is pretty safe and can combo into other moves close to the ground. If timed right, it can drag aerial characters down to the stage in a similar fashion to Greninja's, Samus's, and Dedede's uair.

 

[Aaron1997]

After a Bracket Reset Choco takes it over Songun 2-1 >

Spoiler: Top 8

1. Choco
2.Songun
3.Kisha
4.Teppei
5.Umeki
5. Tamanyaso
7. Nukunuku
7. Hikari

 

[HFlash]

After a Bracket Reset Choco beats Songun 2-1 >

Spoiler: Top 8

1. Choco
2.Songun
3.Kisha
4.Teppei
5.Umeki
5. Tamanyaso
7. Nukunuku
7. Hikari

I'm guessing Ranai and Komo didn't participate.

 

[TheMiSP]

Thanks @juddy96 and Trifroze for telling me.

Just remember this tourney happened in a bar and that Choco wasn't going for guaranteed brutal ladder kills on Songn/Songun at around 20%. Nice to see G&W in a Grand Finals (for real aside from Trolltono lmao), but still.

This does shed light on G&W vs ZSS being even or slight disadvantage for G&W though. I saw Songun punish Flip Kick many times and I saw him limit ZSS's options with up air windboxes. He punished a Boost Kick recovery with the up air windbox and got a free up smash kill off of it.

However Songun was being punished for attempting to land a rapid jab with ZSS's own jab, oh well.

Dunno if the set will be uploaded to Youtube. I guess it most likely will.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Alright, maybe we're approaching this conversation in the wrong way because there's a lot of qualifiers for what can make a nair good or bad. I'd definitely award the best all around nair to Cloud though:

-Super safe with virtually no landing lag and very quick.
-Can combo into other moves.
-Can easily be used off stage to edgeguard.
-Great range and coverage.
-High priority.

Cloud's is pretty much the gold standard for nairs in this game and determines where others fall in comparison.

 

[ぱみゅ]

This stream really showed me how much of a moderate-risk-highish-reward ZSS is, instead of the moderate-risk-insane-reward before the patch.
If she goes for grabs and looks for extending her combos she might get a lot of mileage, but the risk of not landing all those moves is real. She can play safe but the reward is not as much.

EDIT: What I meant with the extensions is that she doesn't want to go for them all the time, since the reward for landing them is not taking a stock ridiculously early anymore. The Risk-Reward is a lot more reasonable.

I really like the direction she is going to, specially since she gained a new tool in neutral thanks to the Plasma Whip changes.

 

[Trifroze]

A combo generally means that even though your hitstun is theoretically over, you'll still get hit by another attack even if you try to airdodge or jump out because you'll still be vulnerable for 1-3 more frames when you commit to those actions. You're usually more vulnerable when jumping, but airdodges can be punished harder. That's where attacks come into play, and if an attack isn't any faster than jumping away then it's not going to be breaking any combos because this "practical combo window" will already be over by the time your attack hitbox comes out.

You're literally better off just jumping out of combos in most cases because the window between attacking and jumping out of hitstun generally isn't anything more than a few frames, and at percents where combos generally happen (0-50%) there is no difference at all. As such, unless an aerial hits on frame 3 or at most 4 and hits either in front of you and/or under you with a decent hitbox it's not really a combo breaker, and Link's or Ganondorf's 7 frame nairs certainly aren't going to break any combos.

Sure, if you've lost your jump it's better to have a 7 frame lingering aerial than a 14 frame meteor, but at that point they're not actual combo breakers, rather landing options.

Best *insert move* doesn't really exist, but in a vacuum there are objectively better moves for certain purposes. Yoshi and Luigi probably have the best actual combo breaker nairs, Villager has the best lingering hitbox nair, ZSS has arguably the best combo setup nair and so on. Obviously not every nair falls in a clear category like Falcon's "combo into itself 3 times and also sort of kill" nair or Ganondorf's "you better not run into me while I'm throwing this **** out" nair, and in those cases it's even more obscure to call them simply "the best".

and a change of subject back to my own character (although its relevant)

I think ZSS is now the only perceived top tier character who's dthrow directly leads into kills anymore. Her previous 120-150% hoo ha got turned into a 50:50 which makes things surprisingly hard for her at high percents, as you now have to essentially take twice the risk to remove the opponent's stock via a grab.

When looking at other tether characters and how they deal with shields or force approaches so they don't have to, Toon Link and Link have projectiles and stock cap kill throws, Samus essentially has charge shot and Lucas has a pretty godlike tether grab with like 6 different kill throws. As for non-tether characters with bad grabs, Pacman has his items and other props to give his opponent the incentive to approach, Villager has projectiles and a functional combo throw and kill throw, while Yoshi has strong pressure tools due to his mobility, jab & nair, heavy hitting combo game, a decent command grab and a workable projectile.

Having no grab follow-ups doesn't exactly doom you if you're otherwise very solid as characters like Fox, Cloud and Ryu have been attempting to showcase (and Cloud definitely has showcased), but they still have safe, ~30 frame grabs that put the opponent into disadvantage. What about when you don't have a strong zoning game, no grab follow ups and your grab is 70 frames total instead of 30?

If ZSS completely lost her grab follow ups, she'd probably become pretty similar to Yoshi in terms of her viability. She has many relatively strong tools that more or less secure her viability, but she is a tether grab character and her dthrow and what she gets out of it is what makes her a top tier. Losing that would make shields simply too effective vs her, though luckily not a single combo throw in the game has been bopped so far. The most realistic thing to happen is that ZSS loses her current 50:50s with another KBG increase to dthrow, which would still kinda suck and probably lower her to the whole Fox/Mario/Ryu crew.

Shields recharge way too fast in this game.

Also I have no idea what the purpose of this is, I guess I'm just analyzing for its own sake.

 

[Radical Larry]

Radical Larry's point about Nair is actually somewhat true. While I don't agree with his point about it being the best Nair in the game (that goes to either Marth or Roy), it is pretty good in the air due to it being able to cover a lot of the foe's options (particulary airdodge). The move is also pretty good at breaking SOME combos such as ZSS's Uair strings at lower percents. That being said, I've found Ganon's Uair to be an overall better combo breaker since it can immediately send the opponent away, while Ganon's Nair can be interrupted and punished if he lands before the second hitbox comes out or if the two hits of Nair do not properly connect. Its also slightly faster which is pretty useful.

As for Ganon's Jab, I'm finding that its still pretty crappy as an OOS option since its still pretty slow for a jab (frame 6 / 7). That being said, the changes to its endlag and Startup make it one of Ganon's best Pokes since its his fastest move and has really good range. Its also pretty good at getting Foes off of Ganon now since its safer and faster, although it still isn't fast enough to break out of combos like some other Jabs are.

All that out of the way, I don't think the issue with Ganon's current performance stem from Ganon players playing the character incorrectly, but rather his bad speed and grabs. His poor speed means that he will be struggling greatly with camping against characters with good mobility / rolls. His bad grab only exacerbates this issue since he can't deal with Shields and Shield camping (particularly against Zelda, who can Sheild camp Ganon at kill percents and KO him w/ Up B). The buffs to Flame Choke and Wizkick help mitigate these issues, but they still aren't enough since Wizkick is still horribly unsafe if the opponent doesn't roll, while Flame choke is still really slow. The developers really need to address Ganon's grab and slightly buff his speed for him to make an impact at tournaments.

You had me until you said Ganon's jab was still pretty slow. Proportionally for many other characters, yes, it's indeed slow, but for its massive damage output, it's relatively fast. Compare the single hit of this attack to all three hits of characters like Link and ZSS, and you'll find that his jab is exceptionally faster than all three inputs for the characters. As for it not being fast enough to break out of combos like other jabs, again, other characters do have faster jabs, but these are often characters that have a jab that sets up into another jab (unless you're Roy, but he doesn't matter). So say you use ZSS and to get out of combos (or shield pokes), you use both of your jabs or a single jab and they do hit. That opponent isn't going away and you've landed yourself into a punish.

As for Ganondorf, however, he doesn't have a fast jab, but one jab is all he needs to send the opponent away and actually give them the hurtstun to give him some distance or ability to combo into another attack, which is prominently Dash Attack.

Now I agree on you with his speed, but he has this for a reason, so that he doesn't get unbalanced. But I digress and tell you that his grab isn't primarily his normal, dash and pivot grabs, as you're forgetting that he has the longest ranged grab in the game via Flame Choke; you do mention it helping mitigate some issues and that Flame Choke is slow, but its start up is more than made up with its high range.

And you do say that the developers need to address his grab? Well, it is a frame 7 grab and the only thing needing fixing for it is dash grab's recovery time, standing grab's range (even though Falcon suffers the same) and B-Throw being a kill move. As for his speed, I wouldn't disagree that he could have some better speed on him, maybe to make him faster than Villager, but if the developers don't do it, I think we have at least one thing that can...

I'm...kind of pointing to the...uh...thing the competitive scene kind of hates the most.
...it's Equipment.

But then again, who wants to make a community-accepted patching made by the community?

 

[Trifroze]

Compare the single hit of this attack to all three hits of characters like Link and ZSS, and you'll find that his jab is exceptionally faster than all three inputs for the characters.

As for it not being fast enough to break out of combos like other jabs, again, other characters do have faster jabs, but these are often characters that have a jab that sets up into another jab (unless you're Roy, but he doesn't matter). So say you use ZSS and to get out of combos (or shield pokes), you use both of your jabs or a single jab and they do hit. That opponent isn't going away and you've landed yourself into a punish. As for Ganondorf, however, he doesn't have a fast jab, but one jab is all he needs to send the opponent away and actually give them the hurtstun to give him some distance

I know it's not my place but I'm gonna take this as the appropriate moment to say that firstly, as a founder and administrator of a moderately active forum, I'm absolutely baffled at the mods by the fact that you haven't been banned for trolling yet. Secondly, at the same time posts like these at least really make me appreciate your creativity and commitment to that role.

 

[Shaya]

Thanks for reminding me~
Not that he's permanently banned from this section, but the 3 point system here gets pretty intense for those sitting on 2 at all times.

We (smashboards) tend to not keel peeps for non-malicious trolling; but they do find themselves disappearing eventually - somethingsomething bureaucracy
Most of his gaps in posting have been due to him being hit by 3point=compsectionban.

 

[bc1910]

Or or or or or or or or or or or or or . I'd argue that all of these are more functional and more useful than Ganondorf's. This isn't to say that Ganondorf's isn't good but it's down the line from being the absolute best in the game.

Not sure what Olimar's doing here (or arguably Wii Fit) but you can also add in and and and literally all the other Pokemon.

Ganon's Nair is barely in top half of the cast IMO. In a vacuum it's very good, but I'm not sure that's a sensible way to compare these things.

I know it's not my place but I'm gonna take this as the appropriate moment to say that firstly, as a founder and administrator of a moderately active forum, I'm absolutely baffled at the mods by the fact that you haven't been banned for trolling yet. Secondly, at the same time posts like these at least really make me appreciate your creativity and commitment to that role.

Something something Ganon's 20 frame Usmash. His commitment to the cause is frightening.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

ZSS no longer has the strongest advantaged state in the game. I wonder how that'll affect Nairo's performance with the character in the future. He seems to almost have a sixth sense of creating openings and maximalizing the damage he inflicts upon his opponent in the process. That's what he did with MK in Brawl and that's what he's doing with ZSS in Smash 4. That's his brilliance as a player. But as solid a character as ZSS still is I can't help but wonder if she's still the character that caters to Nairo's playstyle the most and if he's gonna stick to her. I hate saying this but despite how good she is ... it seems like Bayonetta as a character has covered her on all fronts at the moment - equally non-existent disadvantaged state, better neutral state [thanks to Witch Twist, mainly] and a better advantaged state now as well. I really don't wanna use the word 'invalidate' here but at the moment I fail to see anything ZSS is better at than Bayonetta. If there's any matchup ZSS does legitimately better in than Bayonetta it'd have to be through something very specific [such as interaction vs Luma or something].

[I hope I'm wrong about this, it'd really suck to have a character as viable as ZSS become essentially superfluous, especially if she turns out to be still ~top 5].

It doesn't surprise me that Choco still does very well with ZSS though. His playstyle has always been much more conservative than that of other ZSS players so the nerfs probably don't really change much about how he plays the character. But I can definitely see ZSS dropping down a handful of spots regardless of how well her players can work around her nerfs. She even got a buff, being able to hit low characters with nair now but I still have a feeling that she'll be perceived as a weaker character overall. Probably weaker than she should be but I see it as somewhat plausible that the next the next tier list could have her below Fox, Rosalina or even Sonic [which I'd consider a mistake] depending on her future results.

 

[Shaya]

You're probably right Gheb.
Man if ZSS had a non-crap down tilt!
I've thought about this a while too, that as good as ZSS is, DLC having no shortcomings in their move sets [hence less real weaknesses / more options] with similar reward to what ZSS can achieve isn't going to bode well for her in the long term.

We'll see how things go with Nairo, I guess.

At the least ZSS has various amounts of disjoints and still a better off stage game and recovery (imo, at least). While Bay can roofie you off the top at nearly any percent from a lot of her move set, ZSS can kill you out right with the best spike in the game by far and gets more out of rage and stage diversity (again, imo).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Some other random thought: I think people overrate how much Rosalina benefits from the patch. The introduction of Cloud alone probably negates all of the indirect buffs she received. Sheik, ZSS and MK may have been nerfed but that doesn't mean that Rosalina beats these characters now, I think it's pretty plausible that at least MK still has a slight edge against her.

Diddy Kong on the other hand doesn't look like he's losing to just about anybody now. Only a few very slight disadvantages like against Cloud or some other characters but his neutral game alone makes it borderline impossible for him to have any big disadvantages imo. If anybody should be considered top 3 alongside Cloud any Bayonetta it's Diddy, not Rosalina.

 

[bc1910]

Shogun's Fox MU spread. I was told that he only spent 5 minutes on it but I don't know if that's true (he may have said it in the actual tweet here; I don't read Japanese).



Again, I don't read Japanese, but I was surprised to see Greninja in what I assume is the slight disadvantage group, especially over Sheik and Rosa. Unclog the Frog indeed.

I still think the MU is in Fox's favour, could be even, but it's interesting to see this opinion. Pump can really screw with Fox's recovery and Greninja can actually shieldgrab Utilt on block now, so I guess it's not totally out there.

 

[Nobie]

Shogun's Fox MU spread. I was told that he only spent 5 minutes on it but I don't know if that's true (he may have said it in the actual tweet here; I don't read Japanese).

View attachment 101464

Again, I don't read Japanese, but I was surprised to see Greninja in what I assume is the slight disadvantage group, especially over Sheik and Rosa. Unclog the Frog indeed.

I still think the MU is in Fox's favour, could be even, but it's interesting to see this opinion. Pump can really screw with Fox's recovery and Greninja can actually shieldgrab Utilt on block now, so I guess it's not totally out there.

五分 here doesn't mean 5 minutes (though it can), it means 50:50.

Oddly enough that means he's calling not only Greninja an EDIT: SLIGHTLY DISADVANTAGEOUS matchup but also Mewtwo (??) and Mega Man (??!!) as even.

 

[Yikarur]

but Diddy beats Cloud because his playing style is basically the opposite of what Cloud wants.. I don't understand where Cloud has an advantage here.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Shogun's matchup spread is extremely weird.

Oddly enough that means he's calling not only Greninja an even match but also Mewtwo (??) and Mega Man (??!!).

I wouldn't call them even but Mega Man has never been a big advantage for Fox. It's honestly about 55:45 in Fox favor or so. Mewtwo isn't even either but again, it's not a big advantage for Fox. Not after the last two patches that is. It used to be a massacre but not anymore.

Shulk, DK, G&W and Lucario are certainly not even though. Not sure what he bases his stuff on.

 

[Dre89]

I think Bowser is being criminally underrated because of heavyweight stigma and the fact he's one-dimensional. His neutral may only be jab and grab, but it's still good because he has burst to cover every defensive option.

It's kind of disheartening playing DK knowing I could just play Bowser and do the same thing with less effort. I'm struggling to think of an MU that DK does better in.

 

[Shaya]

Diddy has negative options to not get juggled by Cloud (remember, 0 aerial ac~or~de-celeration). Gets edge guarded very hard by Cloud.
the size of cloud's nair keeps him safe from banana oos. Doesn't struggle against diddy's forward air spacing LIKE EVERY OTHER CHARACTER IN THE CAST DOES. Diddy doesn't edge guard Cloud much at all - a hard banana throw off stage may get in his way but he has little else.

Diddy doesn't really like swords, it's just for the most part swords in this game have been crap for a long time.
Not a blow out match up by any means.... but Cloud's game plan seems a lot more relevant in this match up than vice versa.

Could change in time - Angel Cortes beat Tweek recently somewhat convincingly, but M2K's records against MVD are even more convincing - he also has forced ZeRo off of Diddy.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Diddy has negative options to not get juggled by Cloud (remember, 0 aerial ac~or~de-celeration). Gets edge guarded very hard by Cloud.
the size of cloud's nair keeps him safe from banana oos. Doesn't struggle against diddy's forward air spacing LIKE EVERY OTHER CHARACTER IN THE CAST DOES. Diddy doesn't edge guard Cloud much at all - a hard banana throw off stage may get in his way but he has little else.

Diddy doesn't really like swords, it's just for the most part swords in this game have been crap for a long time.
Not a blow out match up by any means.... but Cloud's game plan seems a lot more relevant in this match up than vice versa.

Could change in time - Angel Cortes beat Tweek recently somewhat convincingly, but M2K's records against MVD are even more convincing - he also has forced ZeRo off of Diddy.

Mii Gunner doesn't really struggle with Diddy's forward air spacing since Gunner's fair has much more range. Since Gunner's fair is a transcendent projectile, it will hit Diddy Kong before he can get in the range of his fair. In fact, this is one of the reasons why Gunner does well against Diddy. Currently the only results of this matchup are between ROM and Sean in Genesis 3, and they are tied in games 2-2 (sean beat ROM 2-0 in one of the earlier rounds of the first pool, but ROM beat sean 2-0 in the final round of the first pool). It seems like a pretty even matchup right now.

 

[Ulevo]

I haven't labbed the numbers yet but Rosalina dies to Meta Knight like, 10% later than before. It is basically the same as prepatch. Actually, it is arguably worse because forward air is one of his best tools for Luma, and this is one instance where the landing lag change is rather important.

 

[Trifroze]

ZSS no longer has the strongest advantaged state in the game. I wonder how that'll affect Nairo's performance with the character in the future. He seems to almost have a sixth sense of creating openings and maximalizing the damage he inflicts upon his opponent in the process. That's what he did with MK in Brawl and that's what he's doing with ZSS in Smash 4. That's his brilliance as a player. But as solid a character as ZSS still is I can't help but wonder if she's still the character that caters to Nairo's playstyle the most and if he's gonna stick to her. I hate saying this but despite how good she is ... it seems like Bayonetta as a character has covered her on all fronts at the moment - equally non-existent disadvantaged state, better neutral state [thanks to Witch Twist, mainly] and a better advantaged state now as well. I really don't wanna use the word 'invalidate' here but at the moment I fail to see anything ZSS is better at than Bayonetta.

ZSS' mobility, rolls/dodges, jab, zair, nair, dsmash and flip jump/kick are likely enough to give ZSS advantages in several areas, such as dealing with pressure, creating mixups, the capability to wall characters out and convert that into advantage, and offstage/ledge play in general. The two are still vastly different characters despite sharing some similarities.

Then again if you simply mean that if ZSS' main top tier niche was being the most punishing character and someone else has taken that spot now, that's certainly true, although that spot was already in serious contention by MK (and arguably Ryu).

I'm still doubtful about Bayo's neutral though with grounded side b shieldgrabs, aerial side b spotdodges and characters walling her out before she can run into them and use witch twist combined with the RCO lag she gets from using it.

It'll be interesting to see how everything plays out.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Diddy has negative options to not get juggled by Cloud (remember, 0 aerial ac~or~de-celeration). Gets edge guarded very hard by Cloud.
the size of cloud's nair keeps him safe from banana oos. Doesn't struggle against diddy's forward air spacing LIKE EVERY OTHER CHARACTER IN THE CAST DOES. Diddy doesn't edge guard Cloud much at all - a hard banana throw off stage may get in his way but he has little else.

Diddy doesn't really like swords, it's just for the most part swords in this game have been crap for a long time.
Not a blow out match up by any means.... but Cloud's game plan seems a lot more relevant in this match up than vice versa.

Could change in time - Angel Cortes beat Tweek recently somewhat convincingly, but M2K's records against MVD are even more convincing - he also has forced ZeRo off of Diddy.

Told them already. Nice to see you saying the same stuff.

 

[williamsga555]

Late to nair discussings, but don't neglect Dedede's. A bit slow at just under 10 frames, but it's still a large sexkick on the fastest faller in the game, does 12% sweetspotted, and the sourspot leads into followups very late (including sour nair→uair, which can reliably finish a stock around 110% or so).

It's a wee bit too slow to be a candidate for best-in-class material (at least for nairs), but it's still a really important move in his arsenal and a tool that has to be respected (unfortunately that respect is just holding shield, but if nothing else that can open up to ff grab).

 

[bc1910]

五分 here doesn't mean 5 minutes (though it can), it means 50:50.

Oddly enough that means he's calling not only Greninja an even match but also Mewtwo (??) and Mega Man (??!!).

Okay thanks.

On the one hand I'm concerned that he thinks Fox has no losing MUs when the character has a losing record to at least Rosalina in tournament. On the other, those MUs being even makes more sense, though I agree Mewtwo is a strange choice.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox vs Mewtwo really isn't that far off even anymore tbh.

 

[Nobie]

Okay thanks.

On the one hand I'm concerned that he thinks Fox has no losing MUs when the character has a losing record to at least Rosalina in tournament. On the other, those MUs being even makes more sense, though I agree Mewtwo is a strange choice.

Wait I made a mistake there, I think I just didn't look at the chart properly or confused Greninja for Lucario. He has Greninja as slight disadvantage.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Wait I made a mistake there, I think I just didn't look at the chart properly or confused Greninja for Lucario. He has Greninja as slight disadvantage.

That's probably the 'element of surprise' Greninja brings. Seeing as Greninja doesn't hold the popularity he should have, and actually should go about even vs Fox, it feels worse for the Fox main because of match up inexperience. It's a whole lot different when you have matchup inexperience vs a character you are actually GOOD against.

Which is why up till now, I haven't experienced the Bayonetta hate everyone experiences because I play Diddy. I do hate Cloud though, again, because I play Diddy.

 

[Deleted member]

Late to nair discussings, but don't neglect Dedede's. A bit slow at just under 10 frames, but it's still a large sexkick on the fastest faller in the game, does 12% sweetspotted, and the sourspot leads into followups very late (including sour nair→uair, which can reliably finish a stock around 110% or so).

It's a wee bit too slow to be a candidate for best-in-class material (at least for nairs), but it's still a really important move in his arsenal and a tool that has to be respected (unfortunately that respect is just holding shield, but if nothing else that can open up to ff grab).

For as much **** I give Dedede nowadays, his nair is pretty good. It even has killing potential at higher percents. Sour nair also leads into a few utilts at low percents, or potentially a grab. The only thing about the move that bites is that it's never safe on shield.

 

[bc1910]

Oh, then his chart IS weird. Whether Mewtwo is even or not, it certainly shouldn't be in his favour.

I think Shogun has a reasonable amount of Greninja experience through fighting Some, though I could be wrong. To be honest I think people should be learning the Greninja MU now anyway, or at least making themselves aware of his more dangerous options. iStudy showed us what the character can do, he's just been buffed and had his worst MU severely nerfed, and Dabuz has already namechecked him as a tournament threat that people should start to watch out for. You can't expect to go in blind and easily beat this character any more.

 

[Vyrnx]

ZSS no longer has the strongest advantaged state in the game.

Which characters you think have stronger advantaged states besides Bayonetta? I agree with your statement but am just curious.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Which characters you think have stronger advantaged states besides Bayonetta? I agree with your statement but am just curious.

Bayonetta's is stronger. Cloud, Fox, MK and probably Ryu give her a run for her money now, each of them in their own wy.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I think Bowser is being criminally underrated because of heavyweight stigma and the fact he's one-dimensional. His neutral may only be jab and grab, but it's still good because he has burst to cover every defensive option.

It's kind of disheartening playing DK knowing I could just play Bowser and do the same thing with less effort. I'm struggling to think of an MU that DK does better in.

Disclaimer: I don't play Bowser, so I'm only going off observations of some Bowsers I watch like Rafa, Ash, Le Troof, Ho3King (something like that) and a few others.

Heavyweight stigma? As if people inherently hate fat boys just to hate?

I assume you mean the fact that the heavies get to ride the combo train and ultimately have poor vertical anti juggling strats? That's true.

Admitting to a character's "flatness" means that if put in situation where your tools aren't as important as usual or nulled, means doom and gloom. I often times see Bowsers go for jab or wait for rolls to do an up b punish in neutral and I say, is there more? Now I'm no Bowser expert nor will I claim to ever be one, but having one plan and one plan only seems a bit narrow minded for a character.

What do you mean playing DK and Bowser is kinda disheartening? DK with his larger air mobility and less ending lag on key moves (uair, bair, dtilt, utilt, giant punch) means he has more at his disposal to rack percents and kill while if Bowser gets out of Shell Shock percents, fthrow and bthrow becomes life (probably more options, but I don't really notice them cuz you know, not my type of dude).

Some MUs that DK does better:

Mario and Luigi as DK has just as an easy time racking percent and killing them and his tilts really can void landing aerials and DK up b really screws with Mario dair.

Ness. Boy this MU can be stupid easy if love to capitalize on being greedy. If they go for dthrow fair to uair, you can up b the uair and get 36 free percent. DK has enough in his arsenal to make Ness play less of his game with bair and utilt royally hurting his air game. While Ness's big dome hurts people, don't forget that DK has one too. FOW even thought it was a rough MU.

Sheik. I ain't saying he wins the MU, that's ludicrous, but what I'm saying he does better than Bowser in the MU. On stage, DK has strong options to cover Sheik tactics with his impressive tilt range and bair. Where the MU turns to poop and may go into Bowser favor is the ledge. DK has easily the WORST options off ledge. Exposed hurt box, slow roll, slow ledge attack, slow jump, no aerials and only ledge getup is OK, but it predictable. Otherwise, still a closer than expected MU.

Cloud. This may be personal experience speaking volumes over the masses, but I don't think this MU is cancer, in fact is hella fun. Having 4 Clouds in my region and almost beating Ally's cloud at Landlocked makes me confident that this MU is even at worst. Sure DK gets juggled by uair, but who doesn't? DK can also make landing as cloud tough as utilt outranges dair and his hands are intangible too. Ding Dong is flexible and he has no trouble killing without it.

There are more MU that come to mind, but I would rather see retort before I decide to go farther. Plus typing all this at once is kinda annoying on a phone.

 

[Game7a1]

Shogun's matchup spread is extremely weird.
Shulk, DK, G&W and Lucario are certainly not even though. Not sure what he bases his stuff on.

I can mainly speak for G&W, but considering Larry Lurr put Fox:G&W as slightly advantageous (same for Fox:DK, but I don't know how DKs and Foxes view that matchup), and aside from the differences in West Coast and Japanese Meta, what makes these two players think G&W is closer to even than say very rough. Most G&W mains say it's very much in the favor of Fox.

(Here to compare Shogun's Matchup chart)
I'm also interested to see way Shogun thinks Kirby loses to Fox instead of wins.