Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

Bayonetta's is stronger. Cloud, Fox, MK and probably Ryu give her a run for her money now, each of them in their own wy.

Eh.

Clouds advantage is more about converting strong positional advantage into stock enders. ZSS has real kill confirms. Cloud does too but thats not generally what makes him scary at high level.

 

[bc1910]

Cloud doesn't need kill confirms when he's essentially a walking kill confirm with Limit.

He's similar to Diddy and Sheik in that he has a stellar neutral which feeds directly into advantage, but his advantage isn't horribly strong on its own. It's stronger than both of theirs, mind, but he's not getting kills at ludicrous percents off simple conversions (though he can in doubles hence best dubs character bar none).

I'd argue only Bayo and Ryu have better advantage than ZSS. Potentially MK, but having seen how much SDI messes up his ladders because of the new Uair multiplier, I'm not sure.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Larry's matchup spread is partly outdated because it covers the previous patch. You'd have to ask him about it, I'm not even sure if he agrees with it himself anymore. For reference here's how I view Fox' matchups at the moment:

Spoiler: Matchups

 

[Trunks159]

Someone please define advantage state. It doesn't really make much sense to me to say pre-patch or or have ridiculous advantage states when really they just have/had ridiculous reward right out of neutral.

(at least pre-patch) was a character who I thought had a ridiculous advantage state. If she had stage control or was defending the ledge she could cover all of your options. also.

 

[Justinian]

Someone please define advantage state. It doesn't really make much sense to me to say pre-patch or or have ridiculous advantage states when really they just have/had ridiculous reward right out of neutral.

(at least pre-patch) was a character who I thought had a ridiculous advantage state. If she had stage control or was defending the ledge she could cover all of your options. also.

A character enters the advantage state when they win the neutral by punishing an overextension in the opponent's gameplay or creating/exploiting a flaw in their defense. The strength of a character's advantage state refers to how much damage they can cause before their enemy can return to neutral. In other words, their punish and combo games. For example, if prepatch Metaknight punished one whiffed attack with a dash attack or grab, he could convert that into a ladder combo (leading to death) or an edgeguard (also leading to death) at almost any percent. When a person says that they think ZSS has the best advantage, they mean that once ZSS starts a string, she will get extremely high reward off of it, being huge damage, positional advantage, or in some cases, the stock.

Sheik's advantage was very good, but not oppressive like ZSS/Bayonetta/Prepatch MK etc. Her best trait was her incredibly powerful neutral, which allowed her to enter the advantage state more often than any of those characters. ZSS and Bayonetta on the other hand will win neutral less often, but will get much more off of it when they do.

 

[Yikarur]

Diddy has negative options to not get juggled by Cloud (remember, 0 aerial ac~or~de-celeration). Gets edge guarded very hard by Cloud.

Smash Monkey Flip let Diddy gain basically the highest air speed in the game and he has a non-commital momentum-reverse tool. "Negative options" is just wrong. One of the most flexibel and long-ranged recoveries in the game against a character that cannot afford to go too far off-stage. I don't see where Cloud edge guards Diddy harder than the average character.

the size of cloud's nair keeps him safe from banana oos. Doesn't struggle against diddy's forward air spacing LIKE EVERY OTHER CHARACTER IN THE CAST DOES.

I don't understand this point. How does nair keep Cloud safe from banana? Short Hop nair leaves Cloud pretty open for a punish an. And why does Cloud not struggle against fair "like every other character" ? I don't see what is so special about Cloud. When I'm watching matches of Diddy vs. Cloud fair seems as viable as always.

Diddy doesn't edge guard Cloud much at all - a hard banana throw off stage may get in his way but he has little else.

Diddy has very strong tools to put Cloud off-stage. While this may not result in a KO most of the time Diddy gets rid of Clouds limit very easily. (Banana ->) Throw -> Fair/Banana/NeutralB can easily force Cloud off-stage and interrupt his DJ to force him using his limit upB and Cloud with no limit is not scary at all.

Diddy doesn't really like swords, it's just for the most part swords in this game have been crap for a long time.

Concepts like these have never worked out... it's like the good old "Pikachu loses to swords" in Brawl that a lot of people have thought. Things are not that shallow and Diddy most likely doesn't lose a single sword MU.

Not a blow out match up by any means.... but Cloud's game plan seems a lot more relevant in this match up than vice versa.

I think its the opposite. Diddys gameplan works exactly how he wants while Cloud struggles getting in. Cloud loses the neutral and gets tons of damage if he's disadvantaged, because he falls fast, gets comboed pretty easily and doesn't have any strong tool (like a "third jump") to get back to the ground reliably and Diddy is one of the best character to punish landings.
The only things that are negative is that Diddy gets juggled pretty well, if he doesn't have his sideB or the room to use it effectively and Clouds high reward.

Could change in time - Angel Cortes beat Tweek recently somewhat convincingly, but M2K's records against MVD are even more convincing - he also has forced ZeRo off of Diddy.

Zinoto beat m2k 3-1 very convincingly as well. And I don't find that set where "m2k forced Zero off of Diddy"
The only set I've found is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8a-M-OHENA this one. And "forcing off of Diddy" didn't happen here, in fact Zero bodied m2k pretty hard overall.

The facts and most recent results show that the MU is even at worst. I'm still convinced that Diddy beats Cloud +1 though.

 

[Kofu]

After a Bracket Reset Choco takes it over Songun 2-1 >

Spoiler: Top 8

1. Choco
2.Songun
3.Kisha
4.Teppei
5.Umeki
5. Tamanyaso
7. Nukunuku
7. Hikari

Aside from Choco, Songun, and Umeki, I don't recognize the names in the top 8. How big was this tournament?

Additionally, did Songun happen to play Umeki? That MU is one I struggle in. It feels like Game & Watch should win, but Peach's aerial mobility, FAir, and KO power makes it kind of hard.

 

[HFlash]

Sheik. I ain't saying he wins the MU, that's ludicrous, but what I'm saying he does better than Bowser in the MU. On stage, DK has strong options to cover Sheik tactics with his impressive tilt range and bair. Where the MU turns to poop and may go into Bowser favor is the ledge. DK has easily the WORST options off ledge. Exposed hurt box, slow roll, slow ledge attack, slow jump, no aerials and only ledge getup is OK, but it predictable. Otherwise, still a closer than expected MU.

I completely agree with this. Since results speak louder than theory, Larry Lurr recently took a set off of Void's Shiek by switching to DK (losing the first 2 with Fox) and winning 3 in a row. To add to what Man Li said, I'd add that though Bowser and DK have similar damage on their normals, DK's overall framedata is markedly superior to Bowser's giving him enough tools to do well enough to combat's Shiek's neutral.

Here's the video for those that haven't seen it:

 

[Man Li Gi]

I completely agree with this. Since results speak louder than theory, Larry Lurr recently took a set off of Void's Shiek by switching to DK (losing the first 2 with Fox) and winning 3 in a row. To add to what Man Li said, I'd add that though Bowser and DK have similar damage on their normals, the overall framedata is markedly superior to Bowser's giving him enough tools to do well enough to combat's Shiek's neutral.

Here's the video for those that haven't seen it:

You should also link GFs where ZeRos sheik took advantage of DKs horrible ledge options.

He did he the same at PAX Prime to M2K. M2K really was looking to take out ZeRo but then DK ledge options coming in clutch to ruin M2Ks hopes.

I swear, if DK had a real fair or Nair (his Nair ain't the worst, but its just the hitboxes are pea sized, it frame 10, unsafe on hit, and badish landing lag), his ledge options would be alleviated and you would have a more competent design, but alas Sakurai.

 

[warionumbah2]

MKs advantage is heavily based on who he's facing.



There's possibly more, without rage heavy weights are less likely to die due to the horizontal KB and lower damage on the Uairs. Its possible for the MK to scoop you back in the combo by doing FF Uair quickly but FF Uairs can lower the chance of the combo killing since you want to gain as much height as possible. Falln for example knows to SDI MKs Uairs he labs with Ito, plays him every week and yet he got Uair combo'd frequently a few days ago. I hate this SDI increase it makes labbing more of a pain. As Ulevo said the MU is even worse for Rosa, the Fair buff makes the Rosalina's MK counter strategy less effective. Instead of dying at like 10% with no rage she dies at around 20%. More MKs need to lab this **** instead of doing Training mode combo's that won't ever work on a human and talking about his tier placements!

 

[HFlash]

You should also link GFs where ZeRos sheik took advantage of DKs horrible ledge options.

He did he the same at PAX Prime to M2K. M2K really was looking to take out ZeRo but then DK ledge options coming in clutch to ruin M2Ks hopes.

I swear, if DK had a real fair or Nair (his Nair ain't the worst, but its just the hitboxes are pea sized, it frame 10, unsafe on hit, and badish landing lag), his ledge options would be alleviated and you would have a more competent design, but alas Sakurai.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying DK does great, I'm just saying that he has more to work with in the MU when comparing to the Bowser/Shiek MU. Also, I wouldn't use Zero as evidence just because he still is an outlier when it comes to talent compared to everyone else. Maybe with the Diddy and Shiek nerfs things will change, but he still, by a large margin, has had the most success in Smash. Maybe when someone wins 10 major tourneys in a row or something along those lines, then you can use that person vs Zero as MU evidence to validate/invalidate MU theory.

 

[Aaron1997]

Additionally, did Songun happen to play Umeki? That MU is one I struggle in. It feels like Game & Watch should win, but Peach's aerial mobility, FAir, and KO power makes it kind of hard.

Umeki got sent to losers before it can happen by a Random / cant remember his name so I'll look up the bracket later.

Edit: Kofu He lost some guy named Reomarusu.

 

[Jamurai]

A lot of players seem to think G&W has a rather good matchup with their character considering his general placement in tier lists / viability spreads. Either G&W is severely underrated, or players think he is scarier than he actually is, probably because of matchup ignorance; he is certainly a character who has the capability to wreck you if you don't know how to play it out. Not 100% sure, but I'm falling on the side of the latter, considering Regi gets beaten often by the other players in his region who know the matchup well. Although Songun does well in Japan fairly often iirc.

 

[bc1910]

I completely agree with this. Since results speak louder than theory, Larry Lurr recently took a set off of Void's Shiek by switching to DK (losing the first 2 with Fox) and winning 3 in a row. To add to what Man Li said, I'd add that though Bowser and DK have similar damage on their normals, DK's overall framedata is markedly superior to Bowser's giving him enough tools to do well enough to combat's Shiek's neutral.

Here's the video for those that haven't seen it:

Bear in mind this is prepatch. What's also notable about this set is how few kills VoiD got off Sheik's 50/50. ZeRo got very few in the grand finals set, as well. Her throw game has been significantly weakened but this character is still content to keep slapping you away at high percent until you die to Bouncing Fish.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

A lot of players seem to think G&W has a rather good matchup with their character considering his general placement in tier lists / viability spreads. Either G&W is severely underrated, or players think he is scarier than he actually is, probably because of matchup ignorance; he is certainly a character who has the capability to wreck you if you don't know how to play it out. Not 100% sure, but I'm falling on the side of the latter, considering Regi gets beaten often by the other players in his region who know the matchup well. Although Songun does well in Japan fairly often iirc.

G&W just has a very polarizing design. If a character gets G&W beaten in neutral he loses pretty decisively. But if he manages to hold his own he suddenly becomes this terrifying edgeguarding machine with powerful stuff. He generally does quite poorly against a lot top tiers [excluding ZSS and maybe Sheik now] but does fine against everybody else. I think he has winning matchups against a few good characters like the Mario bros and Pikachu.

 

[Das Koopa]

Keitaro got completely destroyed by Larry Lurr. It just didn't look like Falco could do much of anything.

 

[Flux0r]

Did anyone expect anything else? It's Larry you're dealing with, plus the burden of playing Falco.

 

[New_Dumal]

Diddy has very strong tools to put Cloud off-stage. While this may not result in a KO most of the time Diddy gets rid of Clouds limit very easily. (Banana ->) Throw -> Fair/Banana/NeutralB can easily force Cloud off-stage and interrupt his DJ to force him using his limit upB and Cloud with no limit is not scary at all.

Zinoto beat m2k 3-1 very convincingly as well. And I don't find that set where "m2k forced Zero off of Diddy"
The only set I've found is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8a-M-OHENA this one. And "forcing off of Diddy" didn't happen here, in fact Zero bodied m2k pretty hard overall.

The facts and most recent results show that the MU is even at worst. I'm still convinced that Diddy beats Cloud +1 though.

Let's not forget that Mew2King used to main Diddy Kong.
M2K completely knows the character, arguably is one of the best 10 players of the game right now, and don't completely destroy Diddy Kong players. That's because the MU is not that good for Cloud. I agree with everything Yikarur wrote about the subject.
I've got a bit of experience in this MU since the player I'm most used to play is a Diddy main, and everything in his post happens a lot.

Cloud's best option to edgeguard diddy offstage that is not read based (is a great area coverage) is falling nair if the Diddy player tries to use their UpB close to the ledge, after a monkey flip, or directly a monkey flip.
Monkey flip is tough to directly challenge, and Dair is Cloud's best option because of the hitbox duration and size, but it will frequently makes him go higher and giving only a bit damage, while you're now in a horrible spot.
I have avoid this MU and played with MK against Diddy instead.
Diddy edgeguad Cloud much better than the other way around. They force you to use limit and then a Fair offstage end your stock, since you can't stop your momentum to react if you want to go back to the stage as Cloud.
I think is at least even (possible) or positive do Diddy.

 

[Yikarur]

https://www.twitch.tv/geekygoonsquad
Top8 of a german 150 man tournament with a great overall representation of the country.
And it's on geekygoonsquad which is the very best stream you could find!

The commentators are not native english so please take that into account

 

[Das Koopa]

Not a good showing from S2H; missed a lot of punishes that would've changed the flow of the game against Vash. S2H has apparently described Meta Knight as "mid-tier" post patch, which leads me to believe he might've been overly reliant on ladder kills pre-patch.

Johnny Westside vs. TLTC right now. Samus vs. Palutena :O

 

[Ulevo]

Not a good showing from S2H; missed a lot of punishes that would've changed the flow of the game against Vash. S2H has apparently described Meta Knight as "mid-tier" post patch, which leads me to believe he might've been overly reliant on ladder kills pre-patch.

Johnny Westside vs. TLTC right now. Samus vs. Palutena :O

It isn't the ladder kills. Again, against decent players or against a lot of top tier characters the ladder was not super consistent. Its the ability to transfer the up air links into damage or read situations for damage or kills. It isn't just the kill opportunities that are gone, his combos are different per character now and his kill potential is very inconsistent. Just finished playing at my locals and I have missed Shuttle Loop confirms many times today that pre-patch I could do in my sleep because of the position the up air puts you in. Characters fly out of Shuttle Loop 1 too easily because it is hard to avoid the sweet spot when they are placed 45 degrees in front of you rather than directly above you.

 

[Das Koopa]

It isn't the ladder kills. Again, against decent players or against a lot of top tier characters the ladder was not super consistent. Its the ability to transfer the up air links into damage or read situations for damage or kills. It isn't just the kill opportunities that are gone, his combos are different per character now and his kill potential is very inconsistent. Just finished playing at my locals and I have missed Shuttle Loop confirms many times today that pre-patch I could do in my sleep because of the position the up air puts you in. Characters fly out of Shuttle Loop 1 too easily because it is hard to avoid the sweet spot when they are placed 45 degrees in front of you rather than directly above you.

I'm off on the point about ladder kills, but it's pretty clear that if Tyrant can beat VoiD, it speaks to Meta Knight's viability and staying power in the metagame. My point still stands on S2H - he had a bad punish game, and my point on him using pre-patch MK was that maybe he just has a bad grasp of post-patch MK or a bad mindset for the character in general.

Johnny Westside clutches it 2-1 vs. TLTC.

 

[Kofu]

G&W just has a very polarizing design. If a character gets G&W beaten in neutral he loses pretty decisively. But if he manages to hold his own he suddenly becomes this terrifying edgeguarding machine with powerful stuff. He generally does quite poorly against a lot top tiers [excluding ZSS and maybe Sheik now] but does fine against everybody else. I think he has winning matchups against a few good characters like the Mario bros and Pikachu.

He also tends to struggle more against characters with KO power on bread-and-butter attacks since he's so light and has very few safe poking options. Heavies get comboed/edgeguarded hard but trades with them are usually not favorable at all.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Keitaro got completely destroyed by Larry Lurr. It just didn't look like Falco could do much of anything.

Cuz Falco is not a real ****ing character.

Gotta curse Richard out next time I see his dumbass.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

https://youtu.be/Gilsv3c4-7I

"only scrubs hate bayonetta"-every bayo-maining john

 

[Ulevo]

I'm off on the point about ladder kills, but it's pretty clear that if Tyrant can beat VoiD, it speaks to Meta Knight's viability and staying power in the metagame. My point still stands on S2H - he had a bad punish game, and my point on him using pre-patch MK was that maybe he just has a bad grasp of post-patch MK or a bad mindset for the character in general.

Johnny Westside clutches it 2-1 vs. TLTC.

You're using VoiD as an example when Sheik was wrecked this patch.

 

[Das Koopa]

You're using VoiD as an example when Sheik was wrecked this patch.

Yeah, I'm using VoiD as an example because he's probably a top 5 player worldwide.

 

[Ulevo]

Yeah, I'm using VoiD as an example because he's probably a top 5 player worldwide.

Good for the player. I am talking about characters.

 

[Das Koopa]

Good for the player. I am talking about characters.

You can't separate the player and the character.

But what's your point, anyway? I made my point clear once it diverged from S2H - Meta Knight's not a bad character and the fact that Tyrant can beat a Top 5 WW player with Meta Knight should be indicative that Meta Knight hasn't plummeted. Sheik's nerfs are relevant, sure, but she was hardly "wrecked", and there's no evidence to suggest she's out of the top 10 when top-level Sheik mains continue to do really well at tournies.

 

[ReroRero]

https://youtu.be/Gilsv3c4-7I

"only scrubs hate bayonetta"-every bayo-maining john

I love that ZeRo says that even though during Sheik dominance on the meta, he was almost saying that people are making Sheik too much of a big deal than she was. But actually, pre-patch Sheik was centralizing to the meta, she was toxic to a lot of characters only because of needles.

And in this video, you see complaining about Bayonetta making the game too toxic, haha.

(But he got a point about the "pick up and play" ability of Bayo and I think that's why she's so great at the moment, she is easy to play but the match up against her is hard to learn. We just need more time to see if she is that broken, complaining this early is a little bittt too much)

 

[Justinian]

I love that ZeRo says that even though during Sheik dominance on the meta, he was almost saying that people are making Sheik too much of a big deal than she was. But actually, pre-patch Sheik was centralizing to the meta, she was toxic to a lot of characters only because of needles.

And in this video, you see complaining about Bayonetta making the game too toxic, haha.

(But he got a point about the "pick up and play" ability of Bayo and I think that's why she's so great at the moment, she is easy to play but the match up against her is hard to learn. We just need more time to see if she is that broken, complaining this early is a little bittt too much)

Honestly, I don't even feel like the MU is that hard to learn. It's just that the MU, when played optimally by any character, is boring. She's similar to Luigi in that respect: both lose hard to zoning and camping (i.e, being "lamed out") and a lot of players who enjoy faster-paced gameplay are going to complain and have a problem with it because the MU forces them to play radically differently than they want to. I don't think the MU is a problem to learn (unless you don't have Bayos in your region) or even that she's overcentralizing yet; my biggest problem with it is that, unlike a lot of matchups in this game, it's just not fun to learn.

 

[NotLiquid]

https://youtu.be/Gilsv3c4-7I

"only scrubs hate bayonetta"-every bayo-maining john

Much like most of ZeRo's videos I find myself agreeing with a deal of things while disagreeing with others. Bayonetta carrying players is still something I find something of a mixed statement since I can't think of many notable players going Bayonetta that weren't already either really good and/or were held back by an odd choice of character (Pink Fresh comes to mind and for players like Tweek and M2K, Cloud holds the same distinction for them). He even mentions several names that are good players despite her and as far as I'm aware those are the only ones who have been getting major results.

In terms of talking about Sheik, I dunno, I feel like ZeRo kinda has a habit of underselling his own characters. Granted I think the Bayonetta issues can be considered a little more justified after Sheik became a lot less dumb, but as much as an optimized pre-patch Sheik might take more work than an optimized Bayonetta, there were figuratively no downsides for a pre-patch Sheik. She had a decent disadvantage game, a stupidly good neutral game, and a ridiculously stupidly good advantage game, coupled with the most reliable 50/50 kill set up. Fighting an optimized Sheik was soul-draining and watching one was equally so. Hell I'm pretty sure plenty of regulars here argued she was just as dominant to the meta as Brawl MK was. That's all in the past however, but bringing Sheik up again in that capacity was somewhat of a narrow view since he only really dug into how much effort it took to play as her.

Other than that I'd say it's mostly fair. I don't doubt that Bayonetta is easily the best character in the game in terms of a "wild card" kind of angle. To be honest she makes me think of Jigglypuff from Melee. That might sound like a daft comparison but much like Jigglypuff in that game she's a character who refuses to die (at least as far as off-stage gimping is concerned), can use the disadvantage state to their gain and can secure a stock from just one solid read that they might not even have to put much work in for, something which practically turned Hungrybox into the John Cena of Melee. That said with that Witch Time nerf I feel that she's not going to have as much leeway in the form of early stocks since those gambles will come at the concession of potential late stocks. She deserved the nerfs she got. But beyond that you have a character who's fundamental design is incredibly tricky to work with.

 

[Ulevo]

You can't separate the player and the character.

But what's your point, anyway? I made my point clear once it diverged from S2H - Meta Knight's not a bad character and the fact that Tyrant can beat a Top 5 WW player with Meta Knight should be indicative that Meta Knight hasn't plummeted. Sheik's nerfs are relevant, sure, but she was hardly "wrecked", and there's no evidence to suggest she's out of the top 10 when top-level Sheik mains continue to do really well at tournies.

My point is that your conclusions are bad because it is based on a minimal, biased sample size. It does not matter that Tyrant beat top 5 player. Meta Knight was nerfed this patch, Sheik was nerfed much harder. On top of this, the match up changed significantly. To assess the character you would need to see how it performs against the relevent top tiers and in the rest of the meta.

You're trying to sell me on how Tyrant beat an amazing marksmen when he went from holding a pistol to a nerf gun. I'm not buying.

 

[Djent]

FWIW, Zinoto just beat M2K again (probably Diddy vs. Cloud). Unfortunately I didn't catch the set, so I can't offer analysis.

Also, lol @ the ZeRo video. "Bayonetta caries players, except 9B, Pink Fresh, Komorikiri, tyroy, Salem, and a bunch of other people." These folks are a large part of the reason everyone is complaining about her. So who's left to justify the salt?

 

[ReroRero]

Honestly, I don't even feel like the MU is that hard to learn. It's just that the MU, when played optimally by any character, is boring. She's similar to Luigi in that respect: both lose hard to zoning and camping (i.e, being "lamed out") and a lot of players who enjoy faster-paced gameplay are going to complain and have a problem with it because the MU forces them to play radically differently than they want to. I don't think the MU is a problem to learn (unless you don't have Bayos in your region) or even that she's overcentralizing yet; my biggest problem with it is that, unlike a lot of matchups in this game, it's just not fun to learn.

You can't have a roster of 58 characters and have a "fast-paced experience" with all the match-up. It's common within all fighting games to have a character that punish you so hard that you want to be careful about every little thing you done. It's not fun but it's normal if it exists.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I love that ZeRo says that even though during Sheik dominance on the meta, he was almost saying that people are making Sheik too much of a big deal than she was. But actually, pre-patch Sheik was centralizing to the meta, she was toxic to a lot of characters only because of needles.

And in this video, you see complaining about Bayonetta making the game too toxic, haha.

(But he got a point about the "pick up and play" ability of Bayo and I think that's why she's so great at the moment, she is easy to play but the match up against her is hard to learn. We just need more time to see if she is that broken, complaining this early is a little bittt too much)

Okay no pun intended here, but I don't think that's quite fair. Sheik having an extremely potent tool in the neutral does not equate to having a set up that can be achieved from nearly any phase in the game while also having an S tier disadvantaged state. Sheik and bayonetta are on different levels entirely.

No one, not even zero, is attempting to argue that needles weren't problematic, but to imply that they were "toxic" in the same way that bayonetta's witch twist/witch time are is absolutely absurd. This is all coming from someone who mained DK for months; I know needles were a pain more than any high tier mains.

 

[Das Koopa]

My point is that your conclusions are bad because it is based on a minimal, biased sample size. It does not matter that Tyrant beat top 5 player. Meta Knight was nerfed this patch, Sheik was nerfed much harder. On top of this, the match up changed significantly. To assess the character you would need to see how it performs against the relevent top tiers and in the rest of the meta.

You're trying to sell me on how Tyrant beat an amazing marksmen when he went from holding a pistol to a nerf gun. I'm not buying.

This all stems from S2H playing badly and accusing Meta Knight of being mid-tier so I still don't get your point

I'm contesting that

A: S2H played in-optimally against Vash by missing punishes against Mac
B: S2H's mindset is wrong if he's calling Meta Knight mid-tier when there's no evidence establishing this
C: You're oveselling Sheik's nerfs even though she does only marginally worse in actual tournaments post-patch
D: You're overselling Meta Knight's nerfs even though he still very clearly does well in-tournies. VoiD vs. Tyrany wasn't in a vacuum, and Tyrant still won an entire tourney with at least some talent in attendance.

 

[bc1910]

Tyroy is the player who really kicked off this latest Bayo drama (because of Ally's reactions) and you could see how simplistic his play was, I'm not entirely sure he should be namechecked alongside players like 9B.

And regardless of how good Salem and Pink Fresh are as players, the fact remains that they weren't doing anything until they picked up Bayo. Whilst they're not carried, they're still proving the potential of this powerhouse character.

I don't think "toxic" is a healthy word and I don't think ZeRo of all people should be putting it out there, but I can see his point. Whenever anything's considered anti-fun, it hurts the game. Although ultimately the players, not the game itself, will be the ones killing their own game.

EDIT: Apparently I need to make this painfully obvious: I do not think that 9B, Salem or Pink Fresh are carried by Bayo. They are, however, proving how powerful she is.

 

[UberMadman]

Has Bayonetta won a major yet? Suddenly everyone including ZeRo is ******** about her and calling her "toxic" but as far as I know she hasn't taken first at any notable events outside Japan. Am I wrong? I might be. I feel like I'm going crazy to be honest, suddenly everyone is complaining about a character that I have not yet seen prove to be broken.

 

[Ulevo]

S2H has been known to be a little steep with his conclusions, but he has a much better basis for his conclusions then you do given that he mains the character and does okay in tournament. All I am telling you is that suggesting that S2H is wrong, when he could be quite accurate, just because you think he was reliant on a powerful gimmick he can no longer utilize, which as I said is not the actual problem, is short sighted. There is more at work to these changes that you're not appreciating and giving me results like Tyrant beating VoiD, who just got his character patched, means very little.

We need to wait.