Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[meleebrawler]

It seems that contrary to popular belief, a perfectly (or at least as close as it gets to be) balanced game actually doesn't really have much of a metagame: since everyone has an equal shot of winning vs. everyone there's not a whole lot to discuss, as MUs mostly just boil down to whoever's the better player.

Why are people complaining about a frame 18 move that doesn't kill if you tech it and is terrible to throw out in the neutral due to having nearly 30 frames of landing lag?

People are just used to landing hitboxes being weak.

 

[suarsuar]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I experimented a bit with holding the control stick in one direction and tapping the C-stick in the same direction, but I still couldn't get anything close to what I manage with single stick, quarter circle SDI. I was looking at some Japanese wikis earlier today and they suggest single stick quarter circle SDI too.

If this is the Ryu utilt thing you're talking about, that's also quarter circle SDI. He mentions it in the main tweet as well as in the replies, mentioned this as his method (demonstration on N64 controller), and also says C-stick isn't usable for SDI in 4.

Can you pretty please expand on this?

If I understand correctly, they're sliding the analog stick in a quarter circle away THEN resetting it to neutral and THEN sliding it in a quarter circle again or are they just basically going around and around?

 

[Big-Cat]

Low tier or superheavy with very useful move/combo: "It's OK, they need broken stuff to compete".

Top tier: "I hate everything that makes this character top tier".

You can't look at a move/combo by itself. You have to look at the entire design of the character. Heavies need moves like Showtime and Ding Dong, not characters like Diddy or Sheik that can easily get in.

 

[outfoxd]

You can't look at a move/combo by itself. You have to look at the entire design of the character. Heavies need moves like Showtime and Ding Dong, not characters like Diddy or Sheik that can easily get in.

Basically. If you only get in like two times you should be getting monstrous reward for it.

 

[Mario766]

Can you pretty please expand on this?

If I understand correctly, they're sliding the analog stick in a quarter circle away THEN resetting it to neutral and THEN sliding it in a quarter circle again or are they just basically going around and around?

Wiggle again and again. You don't have to reset to neutral because Smash 4 reads inputs for the controller stick on every directional press, it's why you can rotate the stick to mash out of grabs.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It seems that contrary to popular belief, a perfectly (or at least as close as it gets to be) balanced game actually doesn't really have much of a metagame: since everyone has an equal shot of winning vs. everyone there's not a whole lot to discuss, as MUs mostly just boil down to whoever's the better player.

Perfectly balanced doesn't necessarily mean that all matchups are even. It'd be enough for all characters to have a roughly equal matchup spread overall.

 

[suarsuar]

Wiggle again and again. You don't have to reset to neutral because Smash 4 reads inputs for the controller stick on every directional press, it's why you can rotate the stick to mash out of grabs.

This should be in the loading screen tips instead of

"DO U KNOW WHO SHEIK REALLY IS?

SHE'S ACTUALLY ZE------ OOPS."

Thank you based god.

 

[Mario766]

This should be in the loading screen tips instead of

"DO U KNOW WHO SHEIK REALLY IS?

SHE'S ACTUALLY ZE------ OOPS."

Thank you based god.

Sakurai pretty much made SDI not a factor, because it only is useful when you're dealing with multi-hits, and that varies based on the multi-hit, and in specific MUs like...DLC characters. Technically it's IN but the way to do it is not.

Hitstun shuffling. What a terrible name.

 

[Fatmanonice]

You ever try to edgeguard a D3? Super Dedede Jump armors through literally everything lol, and you can't witch time the Penguin on the way up due to the lack of a hitbox until he begins the descent. So essentially Dedede is practically untouchable until the apex of the Jump's height, but if he's not grabbing the ledge before then for some reason the Dedede is not really doing something right. :U

I'd argue it's almost impossible to gimp Dedede but not entirely edgeguard. Super Dedede Jump is good but it's straight forward, especially if his jumps are gone and Bayo has no problem fair-ing him close to the blast zone. You know he's going to the edge 90% of the time and being on the edge is not a good thing against Bayonetta because lingering is almost not an option for most of the cast thanks to dsmash and dair. Spaced enough and Bullet Climax covers all of Dedede's get up options aside from jumping straight up and we've already gone into gross detail to why Dedede does not want to be in the air against Bayo for very long.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Why are people complaining about a frame 18 move that doesn't kill if you tech it and is terrible to throw out in the neutral due to having nearly 30 frames of landing lag?

Well I mean, it's also amazing offstage. Witch time their recovery into d-air spike is INSANELY good because you because you badically get a free kill.

 

[JediLink]

It seems that contrary to popular belief, a perfectly (or at least as close as it gets to be) balanced game actually doesn't really have much of a metagame: since everyone has an equal shot of winning vs. everyone there's not a whole lot to discuss, as MUs mostly just boil down to whoever's the better player.

This doesn't make any sense. In Melee, Fox/Falco, Fox/Marth and Falco/Marth are all considered basically close to even, yet all play differently from each other and have tons going on. A matchup being even doesn't mean there's nothing to discuss, and don't confuse a balanced game for a symmetrical one. But speaking of symmetrical, even dittos have their own unique strategy to them. Even if you're better at every other matchup, you can still lose the ditto to someone who is only better at the ditto than you. And is a matchup boiling down to whoever's the better player supposed to be a bad thing anyway?

 

[Fatmanonice]

This doesn't make any sense. In Melee, Fox/Falco, Fox/Marth and Falco/Marth are all considered basically close to even, yet all play differently from each other and have tons going on. A matchup being even doesn't mean there's nothing to discuss, and don't confuse a balanced game for a symmetrical one. But speaking of symmetrical, even dittos have their own unique strategy to them. Even if you're better at every other matchup, you can still lose the ditto to someone who is only better at the ditto than you. And is a matchup boiling down to whoever's the better player supposed to be a bad thing anyway?

This. Not to mention that unless it's dittos, the tactics are entirely different and you have to have a good understanding of both characters to even really begin the discussion of how close the match up is.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I just want a game where I have tons of options to do stuff, wherever it's the game mechanics, or the character

I just want some freedom.

 

[Browny]

Witch time recovery + spike is literally the most broken thing in all of smash brothers history

IC's chaingrabs, nade counters, melee sheiks dthrow and brawl metaknight were not as broken as that combination. At least metaknight involved having to do more than 2 actions to take a stock at low %.

 

[Bobert]

Well I mean, it's also amazing offstage. Witch time their recovery into d-air spike is INSANELY good because you because you badically get a free kill.

D-air is good offstage but the only reason the Witch Time>Witch Twist>D-air combo is good is because of Witch Time.

Witch time recovery + spike is literally the most broken thing in all of smash brothers history

IC's chaingrabs, nade counters, melee sheiks dthrow and brawl metaknight were not as broken as that combination. At least metaknight involved having to do more than 2 actions to take a stock at low %.

Uh..I didn't follow Brawl competitively, but couldn't the Ice Climbers grab you at 0 and it's over?

Also,

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with it being more broken than the God of Brawl himself considering the fact Bayonetta actually has get you offstage.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Witch time recovery + spike is literally the most broken thing in all of smash brothers history

IC's chaingrabs, nade counters, melee sheiks dthrow and brawl metaknight were not as broken as that combination. At least metaknight involved having to do more than 2 actions to take a stock at low %.

Are you serious? It's hard to read people's meanings on the Internet

 

[meleebrawler]

This doesn't make any sense. In Melee, Fox/Falco, Fox/Marth and Falco/Marth are all considered basically close to even, yet all play differently from each other and have tons going on. A matchup being even doesn't mean there's nothing to discuss, and don't confuse a balanced game for a symmetrical one. But speaking of symmetrical, even dittos have their own unique strategy to them. Even if you're better at every other matchup, you can still lose the ditto to someone who is only better at the ditto than you. And is a matchup boiling down to whoever's the better player supposed to be a bad thing anyway?

There's two extremes to avoid when balancing a game. The first and more obvious is making certain characters overwhelmingly good to the point of making all other obsolete, like . Melee is less severe in that the top tiers do have some exploitable weaknesses but most of the other characters are severely undertuned compared to them.

But then if a game is so balanced such that there are no character(s) which are a cut above the rest, there isn't as much of a drive to improve. Not as much incentive to develop counterplay, no mountain for the playerbase to overcome. I'm not saying that discussion doesn't exist on a MU-by-MU basis in such a game, but it's mostly just separate groups of mains doing their own thing.

Basically, balance has to be such where skill isn't rendered mostly irrelevant in any MU, but not to the point where no character has a discernible advantage in the grand scheme of things. I know the latter sounds counter-intuitive, but the more work a community has to put in winning, the more it prospers. The trick for developers, though, is to not force a character to be the best, or try to make every matchup as close to even as possible. Just make sure none are trivially easy for the winner, let better characters emerge naturally and players will always have the choice of counterpicking or training harder.

 

[MF Viewtiful]

I just want a game where I have tons of options to do stuff, wherever it's the game mechanics, or the character

I just want some freedom.

Play Guilty Gear. It's the type of game you want. Trust me.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Play Guilty Gear. It's the type of game you want. Trust me.

I only have wii u fam too broke for that.

 

[Browny]

Are you serious? It's hard to read people's meanings on the Internet

Metaknight had weaknesses, he could counter literally every option but it still required effort. You couldn't just pick MK and do one thing and beat good people.

Bayo literally gets KO's for free and it can be at 0% if they're offstage as long as you have any sort of skill in timing.

I mean it is without a doubt, the easiest way to get kills at any %'s in the game. Landing that is far easier than doing an IC's chaingrab.

I say broken in the sense that it completely invalidates certain characters recoveries and is extremely easy to do. Have you seen what it does to WFT?

 

[Fatmanonice]

Bayo's design philosophy is kind of weird because it feels like she was built from the ground up to be a top tier character. Nobody else in the cast feels like this. Shiek, ZSS, Metaknight, Pikachu, and Fox pretty much have the same philosophy as being light, speedy characters who can quickly rack up damage but may not have the easiest time getting kills in without proper set ups. Rosa is meant to have a living shield that can die and leave her somewhat vulnerable for a little while. Mario, Diddy, and Cloud are fairly balanced design wise with more of an emphasis on rewarding offensive play. Villager and Ness are fairly balanced design wise with more of an emphasis on rewarding defensive play. Ryu rewards patience and good spacing. Sonic is literally hit and run. It's like if someone made a house of cards and then Sakurai was like "you know what? This is so sturdy that I bet I could balance an apple on top. OOPS!" Maybe this is an exaggeration but it does feel like she was made the way she was for the sake of stirring things up.

 

[outfoxd]

Bayo's design philosophy is kind of weird because it feels like she was built from the ground up to be a top tier character. Nobody else in the cast feels like this. Shiek, ZSS, Metaknight, Pikachu, and Fox pretty much have the same philosophy as being light, speedy characters who can quickly rack up damage but may not have the easiest time getting kills in without proper set ups. Rosa is meant to have a living shield that can die and leave her somewhat vulnerable for a little while. Mario, Diddy, and Cloud are fairly balanced design wise with more of an emphasis on rewarding offensive play. Villager and Ness are fairly balanced design wise with more of an emphasis on rewarding defensive play. Ryu rewards patience and good spacing. It's like if someone made a house of cards and then Sakurai was like "you know what? This is so sturdy that I bet I could balance an apple on top. OOPS!" Maybe this is an exaggeration but it does feel like she was made the way she was for the sake of stirring things up.

She feels like a capcom developer got bored and wished he was working on MVC4 instead.

 

[Amadeus9]

People need to learn how to counterplay, it's that simple. She's about a week old I mean give it a rest a little. You can discuss how "broken" or "bannable" she is once the counterplay matures and we figure out exactly how effective it is. So instead of complaining, why not be a little constructive, guys.

If she ends up being to smash what Kokonoe was to BBCP then yeah a ban would be the most healthy choice but we are nowhere near knowing if that is the case.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Or she follows sakurais philosophy of trying to stay true to the characters series. And Bayonetta is probably top ten most powerful videogame protagonist to ever exist.

Sooooooo in conclusion......

I love her.

She is my waifu.

 

[Fatmanonice]

She's not bannable good, it's just I'm wondering what the developers were thinking because she's so good right out of the box. There's a side of me that also thinks she was made the way she was to create a legitimate counterpick for Shiek and especially ZSS and Rosa but we'll see how things develop.

Emblem Lord : You'd figure Samus and Ganondorf would be better too based on that philosophy but it feels like something got lost in translation with those two. Everybody else kind of feels like how they're "supposed to" I guess you could say.

 

[Amadeus9]

She's not bannable good, it's just I'm wondering what the developers were thinking because she's so good right out of the box. There's a side of me that also thinks she was made the way she was to create a legitimate counterpick for Shiek and especially ZSS and Rosa but we'll see how things develop.

Emblem Lord : You'd figure Samus and Ganondorf would be better too based on that philosophy but it feels like something got lost in translation with those two. Everybody else kind of feels like how they're "supposed to" I guess you could say.

Browny's implication was that Bayonetta is too strong to exist in this competitive metagame, which is something that is definitely way too early to call.

 

[Big-Cat]

Metaknight had weaknesses, he could counter literally every option but it still required effort. You couldn't just pick MK and do one thing and beat good people.

Bayo literally gets KO's for free and it can be at 0% if they're offstage as long as you have any sort of skill in timing.

I mean it is without a doubt, the easiest way to get kills at any %'s in the game. Landing that is far easier than doing an IC's chaingrab.

I say broken in the sense that it completely invalidates certain characters recoveries and is extremely easy to do. Have you seen what it does to WFT?

Learn to DI and position.

 

[bc1910]

Bayo is the way she is because the developers have tried their best to make everyone faithful to their original games. It's been suggested that even just playing Bayonetta 2 is a good way to learn how Bayo should play the neutral and advantage, because of how faithfully she's been recreated. I wouldn't say she's been intentionally designed to stir things up, that's a very "tinfoil hat" assertion. I doubt the devs even considered whether she'd be good against Sheik in 1v1. I'm not saying they didn't recognise they were making a very good singles character (Sakurai has said before that it becomes clear during the development process that some characters will be stronger than others) but that's not the same as going in thinking "let's shake things up with this one".

I think Ganondorf is plagued by being a Falcon clone and will be until he receives a complete overhaul. If he were added to the game in Brawl as a unique character, especially with Twilight Princess influences, he could have been monstrous.

I'd say the problems with Samus stem from how true she's remained to her 64 incarnation. She was the worst or second worst character in a game full of insanely powerful characters, and her basic mechanics haven't changed at all since then. She "feels" pretty true to the Metroid games IMO, at least in terms of mobility.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I dunno. We got a character that can literally jab lock a majority of the cast in the air to the blast zone, can do 40/50% combos with a degree of ease that embarrasses Mario and Sheik, and who DGAF about weight or fall speed and can 0-death people off the top. I feel like these are things that would have been really hard to sneak in under the radar and I feel like it had to be intentional to a degree. When Diddy and Greninja were super good, it was just the overtuning of a few moves and Bayo doesn't feel like that. Nerf Witch Time and she still has all her aerials and tilts. She's a lot like Rosalina in the sense that it would take a lot of changes to make her bad. Still, it's going to be interesting to see how things develop. Personally, I do hope she develops into a ZSS and Rosalina counter because it would definitely spice things up.

On the neverending topic of Bayo, who do you guys think "feels good" against Bayo. Mario, Villager, and Greninja feel alright in my eyes while Fox, Ike, and Wario feel problematic.

 

[Nabbitnator]

If you get upset about dying from witch twist stuff... you can SDI you know.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I guess Rosalina, Villager, and Sonic will have a niche against WT-on-recovery interceptions. They don't have hitboxes on their UpBs to activate it.

Peach, Falcon, Robin, and the Pits also get by with their unorthodox recoveries, thought the latter three will have to be wary about that crazy ass Dair. Peach just has to play a perpetual RPS with Parasol dropping.

 

[deepseadiva]

Bayo's design philosophy is kind of weird because it feels like she was built from the ground up to be a top tier character. Nobody else in the cast feels like this. Shiek, ZSS, Metaknight, Pikachu, and Fox pretty much have the same philosophy as being light, speedy characters who can quickly rack up damage but may not have the easiest time getting kills in without proper set ups. Rosa is meant to have a living shield that can die and leave her somewhat vulnerable for a little while. Mario, Diddy, and Cloud are fairly balanced design wise with more of an emphasis on rewarding offensive play. Villager and Ness are fairly balanced design wise with more of an emphasis on rewarding defensive play. Ryu rewards patience and good spacing. Sonic is literally hit and run. It's like if someone made a house of cards and then Sakurai was like "you know what? This is so sturdy that I bet I could balance an apple on top. OOPS!" Maybe this is an exaggeration but it does feel like she was made the way she was for the sake of stirring things up.

Is she the only character to come from the hack and slash genre...?

I feel like the translation is easiest and plays a part.

 

[outfoxd]

Is she the only character to come from the hack and slash genre...?

I feel like the translation is easiest and plays a part.

Specifically from the Spectacle Fighter subgenre. DMC, God of War, Madworld. Games where the point is the flashiest combos and to look like a god of death.

 

[Zionaze]

I can't think of any other character that could win the smash ballot that fits into the "top tier" criteria of smash.
Beat em gameplay with combos? Check.
Somewhat mobile ingame? Check
Good projectile? Check
In game gimmicks that allows you to slow down time? BAT WITHIN?!? Check

I voted for her because she was the most perfect fit for smash and it came out exactly how I imagined it to be. A top tier.
Like from a design perspective, no other candidate can possibly top bayo

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Except, you know, a lot of people have made fitting movesets for other characters that could also have been top tier. Not trying to **** on Bayo or anything, but she won basically just because Nintendo narrowed their critera into a bottleneck where she was the only one to fit through it.

Again, King K.Rool, Dixie, Ridley...friggin' Wolf...all of those were just as requested or even moreso than Bayonetta, so obviously people think other canidates can top her.

 

[Zionaze]

Except, you know, a lot of people have made fitting movesets for other characters that could also have been top tier. Not trying to **** on Bayo or anything, but she won basically just because Nintendo narrowed their critera into a bottleneck where she was the only one to fit through it.

Again, King K.Rool, Dixie, Ridley...friggin' Wolf...all of those were just as requested or even moreso than Bayonetta, so obviously people think other canidates can top her.

I mean yeah they can win the smash ballot but if even if they did, can their design possibly be better or equal to bayo?

 

[Chuva]

I think that's too much speculating on a subject that doesn't really pertain to this thread.

Bayonetta is who she is, now it's up for the competitive community to work with that character's design: be it by developing the character's strengths or finding potential counterplay.

 

[bc1910]

I dunno. We got a character that can literally jab lock a majority of the cast in the air to the blast zone, can do 40/50% combos with a degree of ease that embarrasses Mario and Sheik, and who DGAF about weight or fall speed and can 0-death people off the top. I feel like these are things that would have been really hard to sneak in under the radar and I feel like it had to be intentional to a degree. When Diddy and Greninja were super good, it was just the overtuning of a few moves and Bayo doesn't feel like that. Nerf Witch Time and she still has all her aerials and tilts. She's a lot like Rosalina in the sense that it would take a lot of changes to make her bad. Still, it's going to be interesting to see how things develop. Personally, I do hope she develops into a ZSS and Rosalina counter because it would definitely spice things up.

On the neverending topic of Bayo, who do you guys think "feels good" against Bayo. Mario, Villager, and Greninja feel alright in my eyes while Fox, Ike, and Wario feel problematic.

Greninja and Luigi feel like her worst MUs to me. Greninja is the most natural counter to her in terms of raw tools (short + mobile, outcamps her, high damage output, has a hitstun cancel) and Luigi gives her the most trouble up close. His highly damaging grab combos alleviate the threat of Witch Time. Diddy and Pikachu also feel good.

Mario and Sheik feel alright but they wish they had Luigi's damage output. Fox feels pretty bad, Witch Time is a major deterrent to his standard rushdown tactics. Wario also lacks the damage output to keep up with her.

None of the swordsmen including Corrin feel particularly good against her but Ike probably fares the best. I don't think ZSS feels good either, Bat Within allows Bayo a little more freedom in escaping Uair chains since it activates on f1 of her airdodge and ZSS' neutral doesn't lend itself well to this MU because Bullet Climax shuts down excessive short hopping.

 

[MF Viewtiful]

I find it really funny how all the third party dlc characters are amazing. I swear playing non-Nintendo characters is the one of the best ways to go in Smash 4 with maybe the exception of Megaman and Pacman. Don't forget how Snake was dope in Brawl too.

Baby_Sneak If your computer isn't complete butt, Xrd should run fine. The PC version seems solid as far as I know.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

None of the swordsmen including Corrin feel particularly good against her but Ike probably fares the best. I don't think ZSS feels good either, Bat Within allows Bayo a little more freedom in escaping Uair chains since it activates on f1 of her airdodge and ZSS' neutral doesn't lend itself well to this MU because Bullet Climax shuts down excessive short hopping.

What about Cloud?