Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Radical Larry]

Bayonetta's more troublesome MUs would possibly be against any and possibly almost all projectile characters, especially Villager, who can keep her out without having to get close, potentially negating her Witch Time usage since he can pressure her with his projectiles. Then there's Samus, who has homing missiles and a giant, fast projectile at her disposal, as well as a (slow) long reaching tether.

And then there's R.O.B. and Pac-Man, then finally Link and Toon Link, who can space her out with their projectiles without worrying about Witch Time. Ness, Lucas, Robin, Bowser Jr. and Mega Man are the last ones in line for the projectiles, but they're just as equally as dangerous.

 

[DblCrest]

Why not both? Are people really crying about this move? It's pretty awesome to hit with, but it's not "too good" like all of Sheiks or ZSS' moves.

Are you guys really that bored to whine over everything?
Not everything that is good has to be taken away... it's not like the move is anywhere near broken.

It really feels like if people could make a Smash game themselves it would feel like playing a character with no arms and no legs and not be able to do anything (of course only one character would exist otherwise it would be imbalanced).

People have had issues with Brawl Metaknight, Hoo hah, Customs, Ness's backthrow, Luma, Luigi's fireballs, Boost Kick,Flip jump, Sheik .

Seems like these sorts of conversations always return so I'm wondering when is something 'too good' that it needs to be 'taken away'? While we always get someone claiming something is too good and the other side that defends it (usually the mains). One side always get dogpiled depending on the side the majority of the thread has picked.

Initially I was a bit wary of this being the possible final patch but if we'll see less of these sorts of arguments as a result ( since it can no longer be patched) I wouldn't mind at all. =/

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cloud does really well.

Until he gets knocked off. Climhazard is free to Witch Time > Dair/D-smash.

Cloud offstage vs Bayo is like 9/1 situation. Bayo has to either screw up badly or Cloud gets a good guess with a double jump.

 

[LancerStaff]

None of the swordsmen feel particularly good against her but Ike probably fares the best.

Dunno man. Pit and Dark Pit can deal with her Nspecial more effectively with arrows, can actually beat Bat Time since their aerials are multihit, better mobility to get around Bullet Arts, recovery not being easy Witch Time bait... Probably over simplifying things but Ike just hits like a truck.

 

[Mr. Johan]

And then there's R.O.B. and Pac-Man, then finally Link and Toon Link, who can space her out with their projectiles without worrying about Witch Time. Ness, Lucas, Robin, Bowser Jr. and Mega Man are the last ones in line for the projectiles, but they're just as equally as dangerous.

Witch Time operates like an AoE attack. If the projectile thrower was too close and Bayo WT's, they still get affected.

Basically, Link and Tink can't throw Bombs too close (in which case they potentially lose their followup), ROB can't Gyro up close, Robin can't throw Elthunder or Thunder point blank, and Jr. can't chuck Mechakoopas close up. If Bayo recognizes this and goes on the offensive, it can get a bit sticky.

 

[DblCrest]

Regarding Bayo.... I got to play her against a few friends today. I've found her grounded Heelslide would usually get interrupted or outright trade with other attacks and people would literally just jump out of the Witch Twist to two ABKs.

She's not paticularly heavy either and I think ABK actually kills you faster by extending your hitbox if you use it right after getting launched while in the blast zone though I could be wrong. What's the best air action to use to maybe reduce your hitbox before you start recovering?

 

[DavemanCozy]

Fox feels pretty bad, Witch Time is a major deterrent to his standard rushdown tactics. Wario also lacks the damage output to keep up with her.

Oh yeah, she's been out for a few days but I can already tell the MU bad for Fox. Witch Time isn't really a major deterrent to Fox's gameplan though; it's just a matter of being mindful of it, Foxes just need to be patient. Matchup is bad because she kills him quickly. She is damn good at abusing Fox's weight and fall speed, not to mention his poor recovery. This is a problem he has in general but Bayo excels at taking advantage of all of them. The saving grace Fox has in this matchup is having better movement over Bayo.

 

[Locke 06]

Dunno man. Pit and Dark Pit can deal with her Nspecial more effectively with arrows, can actually beat Bat Time since their aerials are multihit, better mobility to get around Bullet Arts, recovery not being easy Witch Time bait... Probably over simplifying things but Ike just hits like a truck.

Bayonetta can shield after witch time to not get hit by multi-hit moves.

Tested Olimar's multi-hit utilt (f4, f6) yesterday and she could shield the 2nd hit after the witch timing the 1st. I don't know of anything that has 1f multi-hits off the top of my head.

I wonder what happens if you witch time during witch time.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

I personally haven't had any problems against Bayo with Ike. Granted, my only experiences against her are from FG and my friends who don't know what they're doing. But, I could see her WT being a problem against Ike's Aether when he's trying to recover, along with her neutral b.

 

[AEMehr]

I'd argue it's almost impossible to gimp Dedede but not entirely edgeguard. Super Dedede Jump is good but it's straight forward, especially if his jumps are gone and Bayo has no problem fair-ing him close to the blast zone. You know he's going to the edge 90% of the time and being on the edge is not a good thing against Bayonetta because lingering is almost not an option for most of the cast thanks to dsmash and dair. Spaced enough and Bullet Climax covers all of Dedede's get up options aside from jumping straight up and we've already gone into gross detail to why Dedede does not want to be in the air against Bayo for very long.

What Dedede player would linger while recovering? Especially with knowledge of what Bayonetta is capable of? Most players I've seen linger above the stage to delay landing attacks and bait out dodges and what not.

If Dedede places himself on the side of the stage and loses his jumps somehow that's on the player, not the character lol. If he recovers low you're not gonna kill him until you throw him into the blast zone. And you should still be able to DI out of those training mode fair combos. So I don't see your point there either.

Bullet Climax remains a problem but that's not what I was talking about. But if you need a response you can probably just let go of the ledge and Super Dedede jump into Bayonetta when she's firing. Seems like a good plan to me.

But I don't play Dedede competitvely, I have some friends that have done so. So I am only speaking from assumptions. But I am pretty certain you are seriously over playing Dedede's inability to recover lol.

 

[bc1910]

I'll be honest, I actually forgot about Cloud. Probably because I don't consider him a true swordsman since he's kind of an easybake brawler with a sword. But yeah, he does fine.

The Pits I don't think do particularly well. They outneutral her, but neutral has never been the problem with the Pits. I don't think they have the damage output or kill options to really keep up with Bayo.

 

[wedl!!]

Can we talk about this glitch for a second

 

[Zannabluke]

they're gonna fix it
there, discussion over

 

[Emblem Lord]

So about that Bayo

https://twitter.com/SSB4_eSR/status/697300415189114881

Ban her.

I love her. I think she's awesome.

This glitch is unacceptable. Ban her until it's fixed.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Cloud does really well.

Until he gets knocked off. Climhazard is free to Witch Time > Dair/D-smash.

Cloud offstage vs Bayo is like 9/1 situation. Bayo has to either screw up badly or Cloud gets a good guess with a double jump.

I'm of this thought too.

It's actually far from a really terrible MU if the Cloud plays neutral good, yeah. It's mostly because Limit Break and Cloud's neutral are things.

If he didn't have LB I'm convinced it would be a really hard counter. Thank u Sakurai

Also in regards to her throw stuff, there's more~

https://twitter.com/MGN_GNN/status/695855852872269825

Mmmmm this looks a little suspect

 

[wedl!!]

we don't even know if there are going to be bug fixes after this, let alone full blown patches

it's actually an issue we should discuss in detail should the worst-case scenario be the real situation

 

[Zannabluke]

apparently the glitch isn't limited to bayo, m2 can't also be dash-grabbed from behind by pika if the distance is they're really close?

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't think it's a glitch so much as it is laughably badly done hurtboxes to the point of where game mechanics just randomly miss up close like that (including from behind in shield)

Uh yeah, if this is actually the case that's basically consistent immunity and I think that's a bit of an issue.

Regardless I still advocate for some sort of decision cause uh, I'm pretty sure Pika can dashgrab M2 from behind. I'll give it a try myself but I'm pretty sure his hurtboxes are fat enough.

If there's no active patching to actually fix what looks like a hurtbox error though....IDK lol GGs or something. Really unfortunate =(

 

[wedl!!]

I find it really funny a week ago Dabuz stopped by the thread to jokingly say "when are we banning Bayonetta"

and then this happens

 

[Aaron1997]

The Glitch also works against Sheik,Mario and Ness. These are the most notable characters.

Edit: here it is with sheik

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Tizio Random]

Well, I think this is enough to assure a patch to fix these glitches (this one, Corrin's side-b and grab on ZSS). If they don't fix these I can pretty much stop playing this game.

 

[wedl!!]

Well.

Is this tested and proven?

 

[Mr. Johan]

If Pika also couldn't grab Mewtwo from behind like that, why the hell wasn't it made known far and wide?

Universal Smash mechanics says that grab > shield in all circumstances. No exceptions. Miss Fit's grab was addressed to correct the oversight, so these should not get a free pass either.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm actually WAY more worried about the Corrin grab glitch, but thats easy to enforce in tournaments. Dont stall with a grab or you instantly forfeit the match.

Online play would be busted though vs Corrin.

The grab stuff is worse then i thought tho. All this needs to be patched.

Oh, well SFV is dropping in a week.

Time to #RiseUp

 

[Y2Kay]

That glitch..........dang

This might be a problem

 

[wedl!!]

Yeah you'd kind of screw a TO over with the Kamui glitch online.

They obviously are going to hard ban it but there's no way to stop it if it happens other than a game reset. And not everyone knows the trick with saving replays on reset matches.

 

[Das Koopa]

If Melee accepts Wobbling I'm pretty sure bad hurtboxes can be justified without banning an entire character

just an fyi

 

[Zannabluke]

might as well ban half of the cast if this glitch is the standard

 

[Fatmanonice]

Maybe it was meant as a placeholder to remind them to do at least one patch after this last one.

From my experience so far, I feel like the characters that do best against Bayo are the ones that can do hit and run tactics. If your kill options practically require a set up or you're regularly hoping for big hits, you're going to have a bad time. Get in and GTFO. Villager and Greninja do this really well and can pepper her with damage from a distance. Greninja can space with water shurikens and run into grab during hit/shield stun if necessary. He can also crawl under Bullet Climax which is nice too. Villager can camp and use the tree and rockets as shields. Probably one of the few characters who can seriously threaten her when it comes to edgeguarding too. Balloon Trip not having a hitbox is nice and makes being offstage against her significantly less panic inducing than it is for a good portion of the cast. Mario can hit and run pretty well too if he isn't overly insistent on always getting strings in. F/u/dthrow, land a hit if you can, back off if the situation is a little too risky. FLUDD is nice too because so many of Bayo's approach options have her blasting right towards you and making an effort to repeatedly throw off her spacing seems like a good idea.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If Melee accepts Wobbling I'm pretty sure bad hurtboxes can be justified without banning an entire character

just an fyi

idk man I just feel like if you and I are fighting and you call my shield and I DO in fact shield, you SHOULD get your grab. There shouldnt be variables or fine print that reads you will only get the grab in certain scenarios.

 

[Fatmanonice]

idk man I just feel like if you and I are fighting and you call my shield and I DO in fact shield, you SHOULD get your grab. There shouldnt be variables or fine print that reads you will only get the grab in certain scenarios.

This. Grabs are meant to trump shields and it's a basic rock-paper-scissors element of competitive Smash that keeps characters on equal ground at the most basic tactical level.

 

[Das Koopa]

idk man I just feel like if you and I are fighting and you call my shield and I DO in fact shield, you SHOULD get your grab. There shouldnt be variables or fine print that reads you will only get the grab in certain scenarios.

It just adds nuances to matchups to consider.

That's how the Melee community operated with new discoveries to the game engine and if they could do it for 15 years I'm pretty sure Sm4sh can too for something that's comparatively minor. This'll probably get fixed if people draw enough attention to it, but if not, I'd say it should be accepted.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It just adds nuances to matchups to consider.

That's how the Melee community operated with new discoveries to the game engine and if they could do it for 15 years I'm pretty sure Sm4sh can too for something that's comparatively minor. This'll probably get fixed if people draw enough attention to it, but if not, I'd say it should be accepted.

There's no nuance to your grab randomly whiffing should the player decide to shield. That's like if Hadoukens randomly phased through people.

Like, I understand what you mean but it does not promote interactivity or good anything, really.

I've also had Doc Dashgrab whiff in front randomly next to Bayo. I don't like this very much. Perhaps I'm testing wrong but yeah.

Also Sheik can't grab her from behind during shield either up close. LOL

Somebody please like, spread the word. I'm in the "Wait till it gets patched" boat right now.

 

[wedl!!]

There's a difference between a character having a broken grab and a character literally removing grabs from the equation

 

[Mr. Johan]

It just adds nuances to matchups to consider.

That's how the Melee community operated with new discoveries to the game engine and if they could do it for 15 years I'm pretty sure Sm4sh can too for something that's comparatively minor. This'll probably get fixed if people draw enough attention to it, but if not, I'd say it should be accepted.

Melee cannot be patched. All Melee players could do is say "okly-dokly" and figure it out from there.

Not to mention that Wobbling is a defined mechanic by virtue of the Melee engine facets. ICs are just the only character that can perform it solo.

Grab is meant to beat shield. If there's something in Sm4sh that ignores that concept, then it should be patched, because it can be patched, "nuances" be damned.

 

[Das Koopa]

There's no nuance to your grab randomly whiffing should the player decide to shield. That's like if Hadoukens randomly phased through people.

Like, I understand what you mean but it does not promote interactivity or good anything, really.

I've also had Doc Dashgrab whiff in front randomly next to Bayo. I don't like this very much. Perhaps I'm testing wrong but yeah.

Also Sheik can't grab her from behind during shield either up close. LOL

Is it actually random? It looks like (based on the video) that there are circumstances for it to occur that can be adequately understood. If not, then it's still nothing that's actually metashaping or gamebreaking.

I agree this should be patched. But we shouldn't be banning characters if it doesn't get patched.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Is it actually random? It looks like (based on the video) that there are circumstances for it to occur that can be adequately understood. If not, then it's still nothing that's actually metashaping or gamebreaking.

It means that if she lands next to Sheik and holds shield she will ignore a grab completely. That's pretty massive considering a lot of Sheik's good stuff comes from grab at High %. Now it only works from behind but this just means either a B reverse or other such things.

Literally just fastfall and hit R if she dashgrabs right next to you (which will happen because there's a good chance they're not going to go for nuanced spacing to catch a landing).

It's pretty applicable. It's pretty nonsense

It's bad. And the fact that it works on more than just like, one character? That's a problem.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It just adds nuances to matchups to consider.

That's how the Melee community operated with new discoveries to the game engine and if they could do it for 15 years I'm pretty sure Sm4sh can too for something that's comparatively minor. This'll probably get fixed if people draw enough attention to it, but if not, I'd say it should be accepted.

This really reminds me of crouching cancelling.

ALOT of melee players hated it then and still hate it to this day.

Cuz it ****ing sucks.

Punished for choosing the correct option.

Utter hogwash.

 

[Flux0r]

Reminds me of this gem right here:

 

[Zannabluke]

you guys are overreacting
yes, sakurai and his gang might be in hawaii enjoying the february sun but the game is still in nintendo's hands
it's gonna be hotfixed