Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[LRodC]

Okay, there's one thing about this tier list that I question. How has Roy even earned being as high as he is on this list? What has he done lately over Marth, and hell, even Samus, to get that high?

 

[Kofu]

Oh.
Thank you for teaching me, I thought it was unchanged.

Commenting on this, one of the biggest shocks to me playing the demo was how weak SDI was. It's still usable in some situations (rapid jabs, Kirby's dash attack, Witch Twist) but in Brawl most multi-hit attacks were escapable with SDI. Pikachu's DSmash, Game & Watch's BAir, Ice Climber's Blizzard. With inhuman reaction time and inputs you could SDI single hits extraordinarily well, too.

About the Bayonetta grand finals... is that because everybody picked Bayonetta, or because she's actually solid? Inclined the think it's the latter.

 

[R3D3MON]

Commenting on this, one of the biggest shocks to me playing the demo was how weak SDI was. It's still usable in some situations (rapid jabs, Kirby's dash attack, Witch Twist) but in Brawl most multi-hit attacks were escapable with SDI. Pikachu's DSmash, Game & Watch's BAir, Ice Climber's Blizzard. With inhuman reaction time and inputs you could SDI single hits extraordinarily well, too.

About the Bayonetta grand finals... is that because everybody picked Bayonetta, or because she's actually solid? Inclined the think it's the latter.

You gotta also remember that SDI isn't just for escaping. It can also be used so that once the move ends your character goes a certain direction, and if it is towards the stage/ground, you can tech and punish accordingly. Or if you are at high percents use proper SDI to aim for the corners and then use survival DI to live. There's so many applications of SDI that I have yet to see actually being applied in-game at a consistent rate, even at the highest level of SM4SH. I think it will eventually become much more prominent, but I think it would be great if people started learning the full applications of SDI right now since it is a legitimate defensive counter-play to many kill combos/setups, such as Bayo kill setups and Boost Kick shenanigans, which was covered by Trifroze (video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQD6fPQXYwE)

 

[Kofu]

You gotta also remember that SDI isn't just for escaping. It can also be used so that once the move ends your character goes a certain direction, and if it is towards the stage/ground, you can tech and punish accordingly. Or if you are at high percents use proper SDI to aim for the corners and then use survival DI to live. There's so many applications of SDI that I have yet to see actually being applied in-game at a consistent rate, even at the highest level of SM4SH. I think it will eventually become much more prominent, but I think it would be great if people started learning the full applications of SDI right now since it is a legitimate defensive counter-play to many kill combos/setups, such as Bayo kill setups and Boost Kick shenanigans, which was covered by Trifroze (video link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQD6fPQXYwE)

True, it's just often impractical to do all that from single hits in a real match. SDI has always been in the game (you could potentially SDI a KO Punch at the ledge so you'd be launched into the ledge and can tech, for example). IIRC Boost Kick can only be DIed on the first hit though; after that the multihits have an SDI value of 0.0.

EDIT: watched the video, most of that is just basic DI stuff, not really SDI. SDI is specifically moving your character's position during hitlag (hitstun?). If my understanding is correct that's done by mashing in a direction during the hits, not just by holding said direction during the move.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Speaking on subject of Bayo and heavies.

Has anybody else noticed that Bayo vs Ganondorf on flat stages is literally unwinnable for Ganondorf?

I do so love the reintroduction of rapid hitstun lasers into the series.

 

[williamsga555]

Speaking on subject of Bayo and heavies.

Has anybody else noticed that Bayo vs Ganondorf on flat stages is literally unwinnable for Ganondorf?

I do so love the reintroduction of rapid hitstun lasers into the series.

I've been theorizing that Bayo vs Dedede is going to be awful for him as well. Haven't managed to lab it yet, but oh man does it sound bad on paper.

 

[Mario766]

SDI is you mashing or rolling the controller during hitstun. This adjusts the character ss it exits hitstun then is launched. DI adjusts the kb angle as you're launched and only requires one held stick movement. In smash 4 most people suggest quarter circle rolling di unless it's a high multihit move then you can mash.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Speaking on subject of Bayo and heavies.

Has anybody else noticed that Bayo vs Ganondorf on flat stages is literally unwinnable for Ganondorf?

I do so love the reintroduction of rapid hitstun lasers into the series.

Why not just ban FD then? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Gunla]

I've been theorizing that Bayo vs Dedede is going to be awful for him as well. Haven't managed to lab it yet, but oh man does it sound bad on paper.

I'm definitely thinking that it's not going to be pleasant. The fact that he's a bigger target for Bayo's combos, as well as Bullet Climax (albeit in charged form) taking out D3's Gordos, it'll definitely be a hard one. Though, to be honest, Gordo maybe has little mileage in the MU regardless.

That's just a few things about it. Bayo's neutral options definitely hinder D3 heavily, but the offstage game for D3 is decent.

 

[FimPhym]

Things reflecting gordo has never been in a problem in any match up unless you're throwing them in neutral for some reason. Like its a laggy for glory match or your opponent has never had to learn the match up. Bayonetta will wreck dedede by beings a good character against him being pretty awful.

Design stuff: This witch twist sdi stuff is super sad. Bayonetta is refusing to land in the sweet spots of intended design, I guess. If all her death combos from day 1 training mode with no di were real, that'd obviously suck. Her most important combo move being escapable all the time with good play is a problem in the opposite direction. Either way it's a character not working right and is just ugly.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Gordo's being coutered shouldnt ever be a problem if played right.

But I agree, D3 will have a hard time with Bayo, but as long as there are platforms, I dont think it'll be terrible. It'll be mostly a game based around D3 trying to land in on Bayo with bair or something, avoiding Witch Time, and mixing up with Inhale. Obviously bad, but not terrible since, unless hard read, Bayo wouldnt be able to punish D3's approach attempts since she's too slow on start up and D3 has long range.

Clearly Bayo advantage since she COMPLETELY dominates the neutral and D3 is combo food, but not unwinnable for D3. Also, D3 is probably one of the few characters who can probably reliably challenge Bayo offstage due to multiple jumps and long range disjoints on aerials, so while most likely not getting gimps, could pressure her at the least.

EDIT: lol ninja'd on that first part

 

[Pazx]

Tilt stick can't be used for SDI and smash stick overrides the control stick entirely.

If this is true (which I believe it to be) then how does dual stick SDI work? My understanding was that SDI was control stick only in this game, although I think I've seen c stick set to smash used for escaping Ryu's utilt, so I am lost. Mario766

 

[Lavani]

If this is true (which I believe it to be) then how does dual stick SDI work? My understanding was that SDI was control stick only in this game, although I think I've seen c stick set to smash used for escaping Ryu's utilt, so I am lost. Mario766

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I experimented a bit with holding the control stick in one direction and tapping the C-stick in the same direction, but I still couldn't get anything close to what I manage with single stick, quarter circle SDI. I was looking at some Japanese wikis earlier today and they suggest single stick quarter circle SDI too.

If this is the Ryu utilt thing you're talking about, that's also quarter circle SDI. He mentions it in the main tweet as well as in the replies, mentioned this as his method (demonstration on N64 controller), and also says C-stick isn't usable for SDI in 4.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I've been theorizing that Bayo vs Dedede is going to be awful for him as well. Haven't managed to lab it yet, but oh man does it sound bad on paper.

Played it against several people the past couple of days and the match up is pretty BS. Here are some of the more "oh... **** you..." aspects of it:

-She can use Bat Within and Witch Time between the first and second hit of jab.
-Bullet Climax forces you to approach.
-Dedede is so fat that you can be hit by TWO UPSMASHES if she does Witch Time against you on the ground regardless of damage.
-Virtually impossible to edgeguard thanks to After Burner kick.
-Reflects gordo easier than any other member of the cast. That's right... even easier than Mario or Megaman...
-40-50% combos against him are child's play because of how fat he is.
-Bullet Climax destroys his already crap landing options.
-Dsmash and dair trump any ledge stalling tactics.
-Unless you hard read it, your smash attacks are virtually useless.

It's really annoying... in the matches I fought, I felt like a majority of the damage I was doing was from ftilts and grabs.

 

[Mario766]

You'd have to ask Noji. I'm pretty sure he uses purely dual stick, prob a habit from previous games. The speed in which he does it is the scary part however. He posted a video of it and I can't get close to the speed he's doing it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Played it against several people the past couple of days and the match up is pretty BS. Here are some of the more "oh... **** you..." aspects of it:

-She can use Bat Within and Witch Time between the first and second hit of jab.
-Bullet Climax forces you to approach.
-Dedede is so fat that you can be hit by TWO UPSMASHES if she does Witch Time against you on the ground.
-Virtually impossible to edgeguard thanks to After Burner kick.
-Reflects gordo easier than any other member of the cast. That's right... even easier than Mario or Megaman...
-40-50% combos against him are child's play because of how fat he is.
-Bullet Climax destroys his already crap landing options.
-Dsmash and dair trump any ledge stalling tactics.
-Unless you hard read it, your smash attacks are virtually useless.

It's really annoying... in the matches I fought, I felt like a majority of the damage I was doing was ftilts and grabs.

In order:

- Okay, great, but you can also space out your jab and grab her attempt at Witch Time. Novel idea, no?
- You have multiple jumps. Sure, ****ty aerial mobility, but you don't have to ****ing take all of it.
-This is possible on every member of the cast, not just D3. Matter of freshness, positioning, and what hitboxes are active.
- Uhhhh, fair and bair will beat it quite handily. Not as difficult as you're making it out to be. Witch Twist is more than likely to trade/do worse things offstage than ABK.
- See what Z'zgashi and FimPhym said. If you're tossing Gordos out in neutral, you're doing it wrong. Plain and simple.
- I'll give you this one, but so can everyone else. Sooooooo...
- Okay? Multiple jumps.
- What the **** are you doing at the edge anyways????
- What smashes do you need to make a hard read on? His frame forty-something f-smash? The rest of his smashes (specifically, d-smash) are perfectly fine options. Besides, you should be fishing for kill confirms off of bair and the like.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Has anybody else noticed that Bayo vs Ganondorf on flat stages is literally unwinnable for Ganondorf?

Honestly the only super heavies that do okay against are due to tough guy and armor and due to flare blitz and recovery options. They also both have low crouches. Bowser has a crawl and Charizard has a smaller hurtbox than the other heavies.

get destroyed and is sort of middle or the road.

If you want a heavy to fight Bayonetta with, its the dragon duo.

 

[Browny]

Bowser's a turtle tho

Bayonetta's dair is more ridiculous than anything else IMO.

Just saw on nairos stream, no rage dair killed DHD on the edge at 64%.

Many characters have full charge smash attacks that wont kill that early at the ledge and bayo can just throw it out to yolo trade with any anti-aerial for sub-70% kills.

sigh

ffs smashboards

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Bowser's a turtle tho

Dragonturtletortoisedinosaurthing

Bayonetta's dair is more ridiculous than anything else IMO.

Just saw on nairos stream, no rage dair killed DHD on the edge at 64%.

Many characters have full charge smash attacks that wont kill that early at the ledge and bayo can just throw it out to yolo trade with any anti-aerial for sub-70% kills.

sigh

yeah her dAir is stupid lol. Spikes AND kills hella early.

 

[Fatmanonice]

He has multiple jumps but who cares? He still has to land sometime and he's not exactly a nimble, wily critter in the air. Waiting for Dedede to come down is like watching a dirigible land. It's not like Metaknight who actually has good land options and can deal with people being below him. Bayo's not going to just stay in one place and wait for Dedede to come down. Platforms? Who cares? Dedede doesn't exactly have the best platform drop options anyways and if Bayo can trump Cloud's dair with utilt alone, Dedede's no threat from above. Also, fishing for bairs? Dedede isn't exactly a character good at keeping pressure on and Bayo almost has no reason to approach in this match unless she's bored and wants the match to end even earlier. Wouldn't be surprised if this was Bayo's second easiest match up.

Add in: Also, that's two usmashes are when you're in kill range thanks to Witch Time so, no, it's not just like the rest of the cast. 34% in kill range is a pretty big deal. Imagine if Bowser or Ganondorf could somehow link two usmashes together at kill range.

 

[Pyr]

In order:

- Okay, great, but you can also space out your jab and grab her attempt at Witch Time. Novel idea, no?
- You have multiple jumps. Sure, ****ty aerial mobility, but you don't have to ****ing take all of it.
-This is possible on every member of the cast, not just D3. Matter of freshness, positioning, and what hitboxes are active.
- Uhhhh, fair and bair will beat it quite handily. Not as difficult as you're making it out to be. Witch Twist is more than likely to trade/do worse things offstage than ABK.
- See what Z'zgashi and FimPhym said. If you're tossing Gordos out in neutral, you're doing it wrong. Plain and simple.
- I'll give you this one, but so can everyone else. Sooooooo...
- Okay? Multiple jumps.
- What the **** are you doing at the edge anyways????
- What smashes do you need to make a hard read on? His frame forty-something f-smash? The rest of his smashes (specifically, d-smash) are perfectly fine options. Besides, you should be fishing for kill confirms off of bair and the like.

Smooth Criminal

Basic Zoning from beats D3.

- So, you get a jab and now have to react to HER mixup? And, if you guess wrong, she gets 50% or a kill, or you lose stage positioning, or you get spiked by F-Smash + D-Smash out of witch time, or you get jabbed out because you attempted to grab. And, what do you get? A throw combo or a finished jab combo? Sounds like an amazingly bad risk vs reward for jabbing... Assuming she let you get into that range in the first place.

- Why do you not have to take all of it? She can react to your jump and jump-Side B. The moves fast enough to react to it aren't going to beat it. The ones that can beat it aren't going to be usable on reaction. She also has Neutral B to stop you, LolGun up-air to rack damage, back air to screw you more, witch time if she lets you get close and grabs that reset the game/force you to give up stage control... Her range of control is also a lot bigger then D3's in the air. You're screwed in the air. And, if you actually get in from the air, OOS up-B not only beats grab (reaction to landing)/air attack/doing nothing, it beats shield because she can just Side-B/Double Jump/both away, or mix it up and do QCF Side-B and hit your shield. Which is safe because Dedede is just to damn fat.

- I agree with you with edge-guarding. It's going to be depending on too many factors to really simulate, and she's exceptionally hard to edge-guard by anyone.

- For ABK, that's a frame 13/17 aerial tied to a 6 frame jump squat. You have to read her doing it into you, and she just has to react to it. If you miss the AC on either, that's a 15/30(!!!) frames of landing lag on your "I beat ABK" moves. And, if she reads you want to try and be silly and pretend you're the one zoning the other in the match, hey... OOS options/Witch Time/Anything she wants.

- I agree with Gordo in neutral. But I can't think of many advantage states that it works in, either. She does get the second ABK if she kicks one.

- We agree on this one, so no need to really extrapolate.

- For multiple jumps, see the paragraph I wrote on D3 trying to approach from the air.

- They likely got hit to the edge/driven there by the free pressure and zoning she gets in this matchup. D3 isn't the hardest person in the game to Edge-Guard, and does that in spades already. Imagine when her game develops even more.

- You'd need a hard read on all of them because she isn't going to just stay in Smash range. D-Smash, specifically. Your fastest smash at frame 14. She gets to just buffer a shield if it's coming because nothing of hers, that is usable when she's in a position that might put her there, is laggy enough to not be able to buffer the shield. Assuming, again, she got into this zone because she wanted to give you a hug or something. I'd have no idea why she'd abandon her zone of control to get into D-Smash range.

But ya. Not a perfectly fine option.


I think her best matchup will end up as , followed by , then D3. All the points mentioned are very fair points. You can't just dismiss them with such little explanation.

 

[AEMehr]

- They likely got hit to the edge/driven there by the free pressure and zoning she gets in this matchup. D3 isn't the hardest person in the game to Edge-Guard, and does that in spades already. Imagine when her game develops even more.

You ever try to edgeguard a D3? Super Dedede Jump armors through literally everything lol, and you can't witch time the Penguin on the way up due to the lack of a hitbox until he begins the descent. So essentially Dedede is practically untouchable until the apex of the Jump's height, but if he's not grabbing the ledge before then for some reason the Dedede is not really doing something right. :U

 

[FallofBrawl]

As long as you tech Bayonetta's spike hit dair to avoid the ground hitbox, which people will learn to do over time, you'll be a-okay-ish (Not really because you can still fall into the non-spike hitbox and die).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah I'm not sure what they were thinking when they designed her dair. Having it kill *that* early has to be an oversight, although at this point I wouldn't put anything beyond the devs ...

 

[Sinister Slush]

To be fair her Dair is a finisher in her games, maybe trying to stay true to the move kinda?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

To be fair her Dair is a finisher in her games, maybe trying to stay true to the move kinda?

WHERE ARE MY TORTURE ATTACKS SAMURAI I WANT TO BEHEAD MY OPPONENTS

But yeah you might be right. Doesn't make the move less stupid though.
Bayo is an enigma anyway. Compare her uAir and her bAir to ZSS' versions for example, they did an amazing balance job there.
But if you look at her combos it feels more like a sudden "git gud and SDI" from the devs which is a first in this game.
Also WT is the most radical move. Feels like Sakurai wanted to go out with a bang. He really is the ruse master.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I think her best matchup will end up as , followed by , then D3. All the points mentioned are very fair points. You can't just dismiss them with such little explanation.

Why would Puff be one of her easiest match ups, Puff can actually avoid and get through her zoning, approach if need be, and is hard to combo. Its definitely Bayo's advantage, but I highly doubt its one of her easiest.

 

[DblCrest]

She might have an easier time taking out Jiggz than ZSS honestly.Raise her damage and then Dair near the edge of the stage. XD

 

[Smog Frog]

dair has 80 bkb and 140 kbg on the landing hit.

for reference, fsmash has 23 bkb and 98 kbg and bthrow only has 130 kbg compared to dair 140 kbg.

the only reason this move doesnt kill at 50% consistently across the stage is because the hit with those numbers does 5%.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

dair has 80 bkb and 140 kbg on the landing hit.

for reference, fsmash has 23 bkb and 98 kbg and bthrow only has 130 kbg compared to dair 140 kbg.

the only reason this move doesnt kill at 50% consistently across the stage is because the hit with those numbers does 5%.

Truly, her heels are sexy on so many levels.

 

[Jandlebars]

Yeah I'm not sure what they were thinking when they designed her dair. Having it kill *that* early has to be an oversight, although at this point I wouldn't put anything beyond the devs ...

What I'm curious about is why they didn't just make it so she keeps falling until she hits the ground.
I mean, it wouldn't stop it from still being really powerful, but at least she wouldn't be able to go off-stage *and* make it back, too.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

What I'm curious about is why they didn't just make it so she keeps falling until she hits the ground.
I mean, it wouldn't stop it from still being really powerful, but at least she wouldn't be able to go off-stage *and* make it back, too.

I'd rather have the same move with 1/5th of the knockback instead of a no fun allowed version.

 

[Jandlebars]

I'd rather have the same move with 1/5th of the knockback instead of a no fun allowed version.

Fair enough. Admittedly, mine was a simple suggestion, but not an elegant one.

 

[Luigi player]

What I'm curious about is why they didn't just make it so she keeps falling until she hits the ground.

Probably to... let her use it offstage and make it back.

I'd rather have the same move with 1/5th of the knockback instead of a no fun allowed version.

Why not both? Are people really crying about this move? It's pretty awesome to hit with, but it's not "too good" like all of Sheiks or ZSS' moves.

Are you guys really that bored to whine over everything?
Not everything that is good has to be taken away... it's not like the move is anywhere near broken.

It really feels like if people could make a Smash game themselves it would feel like playing a character with no arms and no legs and not be able to do anything (of course only one character would exist otherwise it would be imbalanced).

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Probably to... let her use it offstage and make it back.


Why not both? Are people really crying about this move? It's pretty awesome to hit with, but it's not "too good" like all of Sheiks or ZSS' moves.

Are you guys really that bored to whine over everything?
Not everything that is good has to be taken away... it's not like the move is anywhere near broken.

It really feels like if people could make a Smash game themselves it would feel like playing a character with no arms and no legs and not be able to do anything (of course only one character would exist otherwise it would be imbalanced).

Heh, touché.
Although I'm happy that her combos didn't turn out to be brainless good. Now I can main her without crying myself to sleep every night.

 

[meleebrawler]

Low tier or superheavy with very useful move/combo: "It's OK, they need broken stuff to compete".

Top tier: "I hate everything that makes this character top tier".

 

[wedl!!]

Balance is overrated.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Balance is overrated.

To a certain level I'd agree. Pre patch Diddy was stupid though for everyone. As long as we don't get that again all is well.

 

[outfoxd]

Balance is overrated.

I keep saying it and the comparison is likely flawed due to other factors (marketing, cultural differences, platform, technical barriers, less popularity of 3d fighters) but Virtua Fighter is one of the most balanced fighting games in existence and has only a comparatively tiny following.

I went in to VF knowing whatever character i picked likely wouldn't be crippled by disadvantage. It was nice

 

[Bobert]

Why are people complaining about a frame 18 move that doesn't kill if you tech it and is terrible to throw out in the neutral due to having nearly 30 frames of landing lag?