Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Luig]

Does this make Witch Twist potentiall punishable on hit?

Maybe, there's almost no ending lag on it, but she'll suffer lag on the ground when she lands.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If you escape from the upper hitbox on hits 2 or 3, it seems that way.

I don't think that's realistic in a combo situation though.

I think it's realistic if Bayonetta does more than one Witch Twist in a row. She has some combos that involve two of them chained together so it's the same theory as Ryu Utilt SDI.

The theory that I damn well believe people are still too lazy to practice it. looll.

 

[C0rvus]

Damn, Bayonetta being this super strong character is one thing, but having legit counterplay that's difficult is another thing entirely. People are going to have get serious and learn this MU, how to SDI, etc. if they want to get results. Bayonetta may weed out the lazy players, that's for sure. She might be good for this game in the long term.

 

[Pazzo.]

Damn, Bayonetta being this super strong character is one thing, but having legit counterplay that's difficult is another thing entirely. People are going to have get serious and learn this MU, how to SDI, etc. if they want to get results. Bayonetta may weed out the lazy players, that's for sure. She might be good for this game in the long term.

For some reason Wesker comes to mind.

Please note that I know nothing about MVC3 other than "Wesker was good at one time, but now he's irrelevant because people learned how to deal with him."

 

[wedl!!]

Well, most of why Wesker became less relevant is because he got nerfed in the transition to UMvC3.

Counterplay developed and he got less powerful as time went on.

But that's a different game with a completely broken different meta.

 

[LancerStaff]

Getting away from the potentially misleading Sakurai talk...

How's everybody feel about the balance currently? Seems we've found everything worth finding in the latest patch, and the only big gamechangers seem to be on Marth and Lucina, and maybe Ike and Roy. Unless Corrin or Bayo seriously invalidate a character the last tier list seems mostly accurate. (If the Corrin grab thing somehow isn't hotfixed TOs are going to ban extreme use of it anyway...)

 

[Fatmanonice]

On the topic of playing against Bayo, I guess it goes without saying that her Smash attacks do have blind spots if you're playing a smaller/thinner character and there's a noticeable gap between her and Das Boot/HERE COMES THE GIANT FIST. Ran up and crouched against a Bayo earlier today and got off an fsmash in the end lag of her fsmash as Ness. This is probably already well known but it's food for thought.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well, most of why Wesker became less relevant is because he got nerfed in the transition to UMvC3.

Counterplay developed and he got less powerful as time went on.

But that's a different game with a completely broken different meta.

IIRC it was a two way thing.

People were developing really solid counterplay and then he got nerfed at around the same time and down the chute he went lol.

 

[C0rvus]

My opinion on Smash 4's balance fluctuates wildly. I'm still bouncing around characters a lot, and sometimes I feel down when I'm trying to play someone like Mega Man. But really, there a lot of characters that can compete even at top level. Who knows how long that will last? If this is the final game, I won't lie, I'm a bit salty. But of course I'll deal with it haha.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

IIRC it was a two way thing.

People were developing really solid counterplay and then he got nerfed at around the same time and down the chute he went lol.

Pretty much this, but people were jumping on the whole "Dark Wesker" (lvl 3 X-Factor without the shades) bandwagon despite those huge nerfs he got coming into UMvC3. There was a hot minute when people were legit running him as battery and/or anchor.

Either way, you're both right.

@ more topical discussion:

I'm pretty ok with how everything has turned out with this game overall, balance-wise.

Smooth Criminal

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well, most of why Wesker became less relevant is because he got nerfed in the transition to UMvC3.

Counterplay developed and he got less powerful as time went on.

But that's a different game with a completely broken different meta.

There's that and the fact that they created another Wesker gave him a sword and called him Vergil. One of the main reasons Wesker fell off is Vergil is better in almost every way.

 

[|RK|]

I'm thinking about switching from Kirby to Roy or someone. Not 'cause I think Kirby is terrible... just because I'm thinking Kirby goes against my instincts after ZeRo's recent video. I feel like the most efficient method of playing him is being SUPER PATIENT, then doing heavy combo damage and applying pressure with reads and baits (as opposed to suffocating movement and attacks).

In short, I've been most effective when playing him kinda like mini-Ganondorf with combos. But I like being more aggressive and flashy.

...Somehow this turned into a LiveJournal entry.

 

[Emblem Lord]

My opinion on Smash 4's balance fluctuates wildly. I'm still bouncing around characters a lot, and sometimes I feel down when I'm trying to play someone like Mega Man. But really, there a lot of characters that can compete even at top level. Who knows how long that will last? If this is the final game, I won't lie, I'm a bit salty. But of course I'll deal with it haha.

But no seriously, why you would be miffed if this is indeed the final game?

 

[Fatmanonice]

As someone who has deliberately played characters of different tiers in each game, this game is a lot more balanced than the previous three installments and there are nowhere as many BTFO matchups in this game as there were in Melee and Brawl. Nobody in this game feels entirely dysfunctional and the only two characters that come close are . This game doesn't really have any broken characters in the sense that they're comically bad and practically beat themselves because of severe design flaws. The best (or should I say worst) example of this is . Low tier characters in this game, for the most part, feel like they have enough promise to move up eventually instead of being declared doomed to suck within months of the game being released. Even if this is the end of the patches (which I sincerely doubt), the game's pretty well off right now.

 

[Thecombosetups]

I feel this game's balance is well done for a game with over 50 characters.

 

[Pazzo.]

Assuming this is it as far as balance goes, I'll say I'm satisfied.

Aside from the problems that and other S Tiers present, the majority of the cast is viable on some level.

 

[Fatmanonice]

My opinion on Smash 4's balance fluctuates wildly. I'm still bouncing around characters a lot, and sometimes I feel down when I'm trying to play someone like Mega Man. But really, there a lot of characters that can compete even at top level. Who knows how long that will last? If this is the final game, I won't lie, I'm a bit salty. But of course I'll deal with it haha.

I can understand your frustration with Megaman because, the best way to put it, is that he's plays like he does in his games. If you're not a big Megaman fan or at least familiar with the classic Megaman games, Megaman is awkward as all hell to play as. Despite this, I feel like it works because it's so true to the character that I be willing to argue that he's the most authentic character of the whole cast aside from Ryu. Could he be better? Definitely but, for what it's worth, his overarching concept as a character works exceptionally well.

 

[Lady Kuki]

The final patch is pretty cool, I guess. Wish Roy was buffed to viable levels (if he hasn't already), but it's better than nothing I suppose. If Roy doesn't work out, then I'll just use Cloud and then have Roy on the side like Shulk.

 

[LancerStaff]

But no seriously, why you would be miffed if this is indeed the final game?

Probably the whole "learn the matchup inside and out or die at 80%" thing SSB4 has going on...

But eh I can live with it and now I'm derailing my own line of conversation.

Don't think I've ever really talked about what I think about the overall balance. Well, at the very least it's hard to find a character that's totally useless. (Hard, not impossible lol.) Even some of the bottom tiers seem to be even slightly worth exploring, like ESAM using Samus on occasion.

 

[C0rvus]

But no seriously, why you would be miffed if this is indeed the final game?

I realize it could be a lot worse (the game on launch was pretty awful compared to where it's at now), but I'm a bit salty that some characters got shafted (Duck Hunt, Dedede, Jigglypuff all immediately come to mind). But, not every character is going to be good. I'll roll with it as always.
Also Corrin's got some glitches that hopefully won't come into play often enough to be an issue, but they are there.

 

[staindgrey]

Go ahead and use Lucina, but prepare to face some losses/tough matchups if you do so. If you feel really passionate about using her, then go ahead, nobody is stopping you. Otherwise just use a more competitively viable character. This thread is not for complaining, we have seen far too much of that in the other competitive impressions thread...
Also here is a video that talks about winning competitively (also goes over a lot of what I want to say): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zJNyrFnsHY&index=4&list=PLF2EUdK5HdldfTc6WKy2P8ZTdPvZYjdOY.
Enjoy

Thanks for the link. But I wasn't actively complaining. More... sarcastically lamenting.

 

[Fatmanonice]

As I argued in another thread, even some of the bottom tiers have niches or learning curves that help them from being complete crap. are definitely gatekeepers (characters that will destroy you if you don't know what you're doing) for high levels of competitive play and would qualify as this for the low tiers. As I said before, are the only characters in this game that don't seem to benefit from total match up ignorance.

 

[Nobie]

For most of the lower tier characters, the challenge for Smash 4 has been trying to get in on the opponent, but once they do they can get SOMETHING out of it. Kirby is a menace up-close, Ganondorf hits like a truck, etc. So, if you can out-neutral your opponent you have soooome chance of winning. The big exceptions would be Marth and Lucina, who had good neutrals but lacked reward. Interesting that the buffs would mainly come in that category then, with some frame reductions in neutral on the side. Mac is another example but he is a very special case.

As for Lucina, Shaya mentioned in the Marth boards (I lurk there sometimes) that Lucina's the closest to Marth she's been since Smash 4 began. So one way to look at it is, if there's any time to main Lucina, now is the best.

 

[De Wolfe]

Its very sad to me that Duck Hunt has been left the way he is. He actually has some of the most interesting and complex projectile play in the game with how dynamic the can is. Its a shame we rarely get to see it.

Whats particularly frustrating to me about DHD is that hes only a few small changes away from being made viable imo. It may be a cliche buff, but simply giving him a kill throw at around 130-150% would instantly shoot him up to around mid imo. I would also like to have seen Gunmen given more health so they could be used much more efficiently as human shields. Making cans generally more powerful in both knockback and percent dealt would be fair aswell (especially when you consider how the staleing system works against can play). In high level play with DHD, landing a clean hit with a can often requires you to be three steps ahead of your opponent, so they should be more rewarding.

 

[Megamang]

I can understand your frustration with Megaman because, the best way to put it, is that he's plays like he does in his games. If you're not a big Megaman fan or at least familiar with the classic Megaman games, Megaman is awkward as all hell to play as. Despite this, I feel like it works because it's so true to the character that I be willing to argue that he's the most authentic character of the whole cast aside from Ryu. Could he be better? Definitely but, for what it's worth, his overarching concept as a character works exceptionally well.

Agreed, and hes my main for this reason. But damnit, i want chargeable pellets, chargeable specials, or full screen pellets... or boost dash... or wall jumps like the games.

 

[Amadeus9]

This game is pretty good. A toast to a long competitive life!

 

[Bobert]

The person who posted the clip of Ike using SDI on Bayonetta's Witch Twist said he was using "double stick DI". Sorry if I'm being a scrub, but what is double stick di and how does it work in smash 4?

 

[Big-Cat]

Looks like he's SDIing down and behind her. The early examples put him under the final hitbox, the last one just has him fly out under and behind Bayo.

Just SDIing toward her back seems to work well too.

(edit since someone's going to ask: her modifiers are 1.3 hitlag 1.0 sdi)

I think what this is going to mean is that Witch Twist will be more appropriate at higher percentages.

Its very sad to me that Duck Hunt has been left the way he is. He actually has some of the most interesting and complex projectile play in the game with how dynamic the can is. Its a shame we rarely get to see it.

Whats particularly frustrating to me about DHD is that hes only a few small changes away from being made viable imo. It may be a cliche buff, but simply giving him a kill throw at around 130-150% would instantly shoot him up to around mid imo. I would also like to have seen Gunmen given more health so they could be used much more efficiently as human shields. Making cans generally more powerful in both knockback and percent dealt would be fair aswell (especially when you consider how the staleing system works against can play). In high level play with DHD, landing a clean hit with a can often requires you to be three steps ahead of your opponent, so they should be more rewarding.

A stock cap throw for DHD like Bayonetta would help him SO much.

 

[Mario766]

It's double stick sdi aka controller stick/c-stick sdi in a quarter circle down/behind her so you either pop out early or behind Bayonetta before the final hit. Noji, who posted the Ryu sdi video, has one for Bayonetta as well on Twitter.

 

[outfoxd]

I think what this is going to mean is that Witch Twist will be more appropriate at higher percentages.


A stock cap throw for DHD like Bayonetta would help him SO much.

Watching DH play with some of the characters in Smash 4 is like watching a lauded boxing technician bust a guy up with careful jabs, counterpunching, and mind games before the other guy pulls out a gun and shoots him.


...I feel as if i lost this analogy somewhere, but I'm going with it.

 

[Mario766]

Watching DH play with some of the characters in Smash 4 is like watching a lauded boxing technician bust a guy up with careful jabs, counterpunching, and mind games before the other guy pulls out a gun and shoots him.


...I feel as if i lost this analogy somewhere, but I'm going with it.

Nailed it.

 

[Bobert]

It's double stick sdi aka controller stick/c-stick sdi in a quarter circle down/behind her so you either pop out early or behind Bayonetta before the final hit. Noji, who posted the Ryu sdi video, has one for Bayonetta as well on Twitter.

Does the C-Stick have to be set to Smash for it to work?

 

[Sceptile4Smash]

So Greninja went from a balanced character to this...
He did receive a buff but it wasn't enough. He had a lot of potential too.
The fact that the game won't receive anymore patches kind of saddens me. I especially feel bad for Samus, Zelda, Palutena, Falco and Marth mains.

 

[Lavani]

Tilt stick can't be used for SDI and smash stick overrides the control stick entirely.

 

[Ffamran]

And cloud, while definitely good in singles, seems like he was made even more for teams. He's just dumb in teams.

... Why didn't any of us realize this sooner... What is one common, reoccurring, and essential part of Final Fantasy games that was introduced in the first game? Party members aka teammates...

For the others, Ryu's Ryu, a character from the fighting game franchise and where fighting game concepts pretty much started out from and Bayonetta's from a franchise and type of game where disadvantage pretty much does not exist if you don't get hit and manage to dodge, block, parry, or counter everything. The cost is that neutral pretty much doesn't exist in hack 'n' slash games, but you get compensated by insane advantage and disadvantage tools.

 

[19_]

Bayo dittos winners finals xanadu
http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

yea you read right lol

 

[thehard]

Bayo dittos winners finals xanadu
http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

yea you read right lol

Someone tell them about the Witch Twist SDI, please

 

[Mario766]

Someone tell them about the Witch Twist SDI, please

No one is SDI-ing at all. It's a foreign concept for Smash 4 players.

 

[Rikkhan]

Bayo dittos winners finals xanadu
http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

yea you read right lol

Make that Grand finals, with the extra that tyrant got double eliminated by bayo.

 

[19_]

Tyrant in 3rd, Bayo grands, and no DI lmao
Edit:'d of course