Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Huh? You don't see the problem with someone running in on Bayo's shield, then having to stop their momentum in order to get the standing grab as opposed to a dash grab?

If you can run and shield, then this shouldn't be an issue for you. Just run up and shield grab.

Obviously this glitch should and most likely will get patched out however unless standing grab is also affected, then you already have an option to counter it with.

 

[Locke 06]

To better clarify my "Worst case scenario" point

Wobbling and Bayonetta's grab hurtbox aren't the same, and even if Wobbling isn't a glitch (I'm pretty certain the desynch stuff is? that's not the point anyway) the point was that both are unintended parts of the game engine that change the dynamic of one character in a way that has no real precedent. If it's never patched out, the solution is adaptation. Which just involves... proper spacing.

It's not gamebreaking, basically. It changes the dynamic of certain matchups in a way the developers intended, but I'd like to think this game has enough depth that we can adapt to that without needing to ban characters, short-term or long-term.

When you are in tourney and get punished for a whiffed non-disjointed grab on a shielding character.

Someone yells "adapt! That was terrible spacing. Get good."

How do you feel?

 

[UberMadman]

When you are in tourney and get punished for a whiffed non-disjointed grab on a shielding character.

Someone yells "adapt! That was terrible spacing. Get good."

How do you feel?

I would feel the need to adapt, fix my terrible spacing, and get good, personally.

 

[ARISTOS]

People are just using the grab thing to argue for their Bayo nerfs tbh
I think part of the reason that people are starting to complain quite a lot about is because she kind of ****s on any idea of what a character should be in Smash 4.

- Good characters generally have pretty good neutrals. Bayonetta does not.
- Counters in Smash have always been quite awful; Bayo's is the first that is actually a usable part in someone's gameplan (though counter recovery gimping has always existed.)
- Dairs across the board are pretty bad, which means most characters don't have great ways of protecting beneath them; Bayo's dair will kill you if you whiff a punish
- Overextension and sloppy/lazy play will get you destroyed; you really need to have a excellent grasp on the neutral and your characters advantage state and the options that are available at a given time/ what can be delayed to avoid Witch Time
- SDI will be imperative to learn and use, as opposed to only against Ryu
- Excessive short hops/sh aerials is a staple in midlevel play- Bayo will stomp that out

With that said, any character that Bayo outneutrals or relies heavily on short hops to do work will find themselves on the losing side of the MU. vs looks to be impossible for the latter, though it wouldn't be Ganon's first bad MU.

 

[Y2Kay]

How is it "terrible spacing" to grab right next to your opponent's shield? It works on nearly every other character.

I think this information is too new and too unclear for this "git gud" stuff

 

[williamsga555]

Because it's not random. It's dumb, yes, but so are a lot of things. This is 100% consistent for those afflicted. Those characters have the means to work around it without changing much. I guarantee you, this will not end up being a big deal in the long run.

 

[AxelVDP]

How is it "terrible spacing" to grab right next to your opponent's shield? It works on nearly every other character.

I think this information is too new and too unclear for this "git gud" stuff

it's terrible spacing in that particoular matchup
you can't really expect to space the exact same way against all characters
every character has his own "sweetspots" and places that you should avoid (or push in)... that's like, the basics of spacing
if against bayonetta you can't grab point blank, well then that means that the correct spacing for that kind of action should be elsewhere

 

[Big-Cat]

People are just using the grab thing to argue for their Bayo nerfs tbh
I think part of the reason that people are starting to complain quite a lot about is because she kind of ****s on any idea of what a character should be in Smash 4.

- Good characters generally have pretty good neutrals. Bayonetta does not.
- Counters in Smash have always been quite awful; Bayo's is the first that is actually a usable part in someone's gameplan (though recovery gimping has always existed.)
- Dairs across the board are pretty bad, which means most characters don't have great ways of protecting beneath them; Bayo's dair will kill you if you whiff a punish
- Overextension and sloppy/lazy play will get you destroyed; you really need to have a excellent grasp on the neutral and your characters advantage state and the options that are available at a given time/ what can be delayed to avoid Witch Time
- SDI will be imperative to learn and use, as opposed to only against Ryu
- Excessive short hops/sh aerials is a staple in midlevel play- Bayo will stomp that out

With that said, any character that Bayo outneutrals or relies heavily on short hops to do work will find themselves on the losing side of the MU. vs looks to be impossible for the latter, though it wouldn't be Ganon's first bad MU.

You could argue for any character in the entire series actually because when you get right down to it, a lot of people believe good characters need specific traits. Bayonetta ****s on all the established conceptions.

 

[ぱみゅ]

According to the ACTUAL TESTINGS, this happens to Mewtwo as well, and I don't see him being broken or ban-worthy.

 

[Das Koopa]

When you are in tourney and get punished for a whiffed non-disjointed grab on a shielding character.

Someone yells "adapt! That was terrible spacing. Get good."

How do you feel?

They're correct, considering this only seems to apply to Mewtwo/Bayonetta. If I went into a tourney, I'd be aware of their hurtbox quirks, and if I mained one of the afflicted characters, I'd know what situations do and don't work for grabbing. If I mess up knowing all of this, it's my fault, because counteracting Bayonetta's grab quirks are dependent on my skill as a player.

According to the ACTUAL TESTINGS, this happens to Mewtwo as well, and I don't see him being broken or ban-worthy.

But Mewtwo is Borderline Tier so it's okay if he violates established grabbing conventions

 

[ARISTOS]

Can we talk about ?

Playing with him now feels a lot better; I still get busted up if someone invades my zone, but I'm no longer getting broken into as easily. I feel like I can more effectively wall people out and force them into spacing errors, which then gets punished by F-Smash/Ftilt.

Don't play the character so maybe people smarter than me have better know-how; also I feel is troubling for . Poor movement specs and a shorter sword means Marth can really camp Corrin out; if s/he gets in you get a small combo but often Marth can reset on Corrin kinda easily.

 

[Fatmanonice]

How is it "terrible spacing" to grab right next to your opponent's shield? It works on nearly every other character.

I think this information is too new and too unclear for this "git gud" stuff

Along with this, we're talking about a character specific whiff in the neutral. This is a character standing and shielding. It's not like Wii Fit or Kirby ducking to avoid an attack. If a Wii Fit or Kirby player ducks, they usually have specific moves in mind that intend to dodge. If they're wrong, they'll get hit. When a character shields, they intend to block an attack. To counter shields, there's shield grabs. If the character is wrong about when they shield, they get shield grabbed. This is what's wrong with this: there's no punishment. If it's an attack, they block it. If it's a grab, it whiffs. You can wait for them to drop shield but by that time they can sidestep, roll, jump, or even counterattack. To punish, you have consider all these options but the situation is inherently in their favor because they are exempt from one of the game's most basic punishes.

 

[Nobie]

According to the ACTUAL TESTINGS, this happens to Mewtwo as well, and I don't see him being broken or ban-worthy.

What I find REALLY funny about this is that Mewtwo's been out for, what, 10 months? and people didn't notice this. Then BAYONETTA POTENTIAL TOP TIER makes the scene and people are trying so hard to lab out how to use/beat Bayonetta that it gets discovered WEEK 2.

What I find fascinating about all this is that I think it means grabs interact with the shield "hurtbox" differently compared to attacks. Moves that whiff can hit shields (because the bubble is larger than the character), but grabs are affected that much by Z-Axis shenanigans? Interesting.

 

[Rizen]

The thing about Bayonetta not being grabbable is she also has bat within and witch time.

 

[Vipermoon]

What I find REALLY funny about this is that Mewtwo's been out for, what, 10 months? and people didn't notice this. Then BAYONETTA POTENTIAL TOP TIER makes the scene and people are trying so hard to lab out how to use/beat Bayonetta that it gets discovered WEEK 2.

What I find fascinating about all this is that I think it means grabs interact with the shield "hurtbox" compared to attacks. Moves that whiff can hit shields (because the bubble is larger than the character), but grabs are affected that much by Z-Axis shenanigans? Interesting.

Grabs ignore shields, they only look for the hurtbox. That's why your grab range isn't larger when your opponent is shielding but your attack range is. As for your last question... I mean they are still hitboxes just like anything else, they just set to grab upon contact. Z-axis issue can be from the combination of 3 things: grabbing character's Z-axis positioning/hitbox positioning, hitbox size for those dash grabs (which I'm sure are pretty small), and most definitely Bayonetta's skinny, well spaced legs.

 

[HeavyLobster]

With that said, any character that Bayo outneutrals or relies heavily on short hops to do work will find themselves on the losing side of the MU. vs looks to be impossible for the latter, though it wouldn't be Ganon's first bad MU.

The difference is that this one actually looks like it could be worse than 3-7, which is bad even compared to Ganon's bad MUs, or anyone's bad MUs. If Bayo really wants to lame him out she can, perhaps worse than any other char. Against Sheik Dorf can at least hang around a while as long as he doesn't waste his DJ, and has a chance to maybe get a hard read or something, but Bayo just kills you for getting hit in addition to resetting neutral for free and laming you out once there.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can we talk about ?

Playing with him now feels a lot better; I still get busted up if someone invades my zone, but I'm no longer getting broken into as easily. I feel like I can more effectively wall people out and force them into spacing errors, which then gets punished by F-Smash/Ftilt.

Don't play the character so maybe people smarter than me have better know-how; also I feel is troubling for . Poor movement specs and a shorter sword means Marth can really camp Corrin out; if s/he gets in you get a small combo but often Marth can reset on Corrin kinda easily.

Not to mention Counter edgeguard, which bodies Corrin and basically all the other FE reps except Lucina. Marth by design is kinda hard for the FE cast when they compete for similar range against Marth's superior frame data, mobility, and tippers, and when he edgeguards all of them really efficiently.

 

[Nobie]

Grabs ignore shields, they only look for the hurtbox. That's why your grab range isn't larger when your opponent is shielding but your attack range is. As for your last question... I mean they are still hitboxes just like anything else, they just set to grab upon contact. Z-axis issue can be from the combination of 3 things: grabbing character's Z-axis positioning/hitbox positioning, hitbox size for those dash grabs (which I'm sure are pretty small), and most definitely Bayonetta's skinny, well spaced legs.

whoops I missed a word there. Edited now.

Also, does this mean that Bayonetta being difficult to grab is something that mainly affects short characters, or those with low grabs? Because that would be the height of irony.

 

[Mario766]

Not to mention Counter edgeguard, which bodies Corrin and basically all the other FE reps except Lucina. Marth by design is kinda hard for the FE cast when they compete for similar range against Marth's superior frame data, mobility, and tippers, and when he edgeguards all of them really efficiently.

Before the patch Ike destroyed Marth, now it's closer.

It'll still be rough because Ike still gets massive reward off hits while Marth doesn't, Ike got better combo tools and kill confirms...which Marth still didn't really get. Ike's the real terror for the other FE characters.

 

[Fatmanonice]

"Quirky" or not, it should be adjusted, just like how Wii Fit's grab was fixed during the summer. I feel that the issue of it being bannable or not is irrelevant because it's a legitimate design flaw. Grabs shouldn't whiff on characters standing and shielding. If this was Melee or Brawl, we'd simply have to lump it but we don't in an era where things like this can be fixed through patches.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin doesn't care for Counter edgeguards and can slither his way through with the Elwind mobility buff.

Plus he's got nearly equal range as Marth with his old autocancels, Thunders to keep you at his momentum, and a kill confirm at 90.

Truly, Robin's the real terror to the FE blokes.

:V

 

[predator_21476]

Not to mention Counter edgeguard, which bodies Corrin and basically all the other FE reps except Lucina. Marth by design is kinda hard for the FE cast when they compete for similar range against Marth's superior frame data, mobility, and tippers, and when he edgeguards all of them really efficiently.

From my experience Ike doesn't lose to Marth. He outranges him on basically everything. So we space him out and if he tries his Jab/ftilt stuff I'll use my own ftilt to beat it. Ike also has more reward on hit and grab. Counter gimps also are not overly reliable against Ike given his recovery options with quick draw

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth feels good, but he is not a scary character.

You need to be scary in a game that revolves around hit confirms.

 

[Mario766]

Ike beats every FE character. It was a lot worse for Robin before the last set of buffs for Robin, and it was rather terrible before the latest patch for Lucina/Marth, but they got slight pats on the head while Ike randomly gained kill confirms.

 

[C0rvus]

One change I haven't seen mentioned is that Bowser Jr. can only use one side special per air time now. This is pretty big actually, it guts his most important tool, ruins his edgeguarding, etc. Nerfs to a mid tier character hurt the most (especially since I was just talking him up. RIP). Also means you'll die if you pull off this slick setup: http://gfycat.com/CleanSourKawala

Edit: Full match is here if the gfy wasn't clear enough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYVwUXRIJl0

 

[Yikarur]

This community is too ban friendly. They want everything banned. But because a normal character is not banned they are now nosediving into that "glitch" to get Bayonetta banned.
It's terrible enough that people try to restrict Mii's from their design but wanting a balanced character banned is something that would've never been considered 10 years ago.

 

[SaltyKracka]

This community is too ban friendly. They want everything banned. But because a normal character is not banned they are now nosediving into that "glitch" to get Bayonetta banned.
It's terrible enough that people try to restrict Mii's from their design but wanting a balanced character banned is something that would've never been considered 10 years ago.

...Mmm, you know, I think I remember a lot of things along these lines being said back in the Brawl days too.

Remind me how that worked out?

 

[Fatmanonice]

I agree with what's being said about Ike. Dtilt, nair, uthrow, and dthrow can lead to combos, ftilt, utilt, fair, bair, and uair can reasonably kill safely, his jab is one of the best in the game and great for set ups, and he's one of the few characters that can safely recover high. Pound for pound, I would say that Ike is the most intimidating heavyweight aside from Ryu.

 

[ARISTOS]

...Mmm, you know, I think I remember a lot of things along these lines being said back in the Brawl days too.

Remind me how that worked out?

People need to stop posting this garbage.

If it gets to be as bad as Brawl days then we'll reconsider but until then let's not get antsy.

Can't let fear make decisions for us.

The difference is that this one actually looks like it could be worse than 3-7, which is bad even compared to Ganon's bad MUs, or anyone's bad MUs. If Bayo really wants to lame him out she can, perhaps worse than any other char. Against Sheik Dorf can at least hang around a while as long as he doesn't waste his DJ, and has a chance to maybe get a hard read or something, but Bayo just kills you for getting hit in addition to resetting neutral for free and laming you out once there.

Didn't want to say it before and get corrected but yeah this MU seems to be in the realms of 8-2 or worse

 

[UberMadman]

One change I haven't seen mentioned is that Bowser Jr. can only use one side special per air time now. This is pretty big actually, it guts his most important tool, ruins his edgeguarding, etc. Nerfs to a mid tier character hurt the most (especially since I was just talking him up. RIP). Also means you'll die if you pull off this slick setup: http://gfycat.com/CleanSourKawala

Edit: Full match is here if the gfy wasn't clear enough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYVwUXRIJl0

He didn't get any nerfs or changes at all to his side-b. Jr. can use Side-B as many time as he wants in mid-air until he jump cancels it or is hit out of it, in which case he only gets it back if he a) touches the ground/grabs the ledge, or b) Up-Bs, gets hit out of THAT, and regains his kart. This was true pre-patch and post-patch.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

[

One change I haven't seen mentioned is that Bowser Jr. can only use one side special per air time now. This is pretty big actually, it guts his most important tool, ruins his edgeguarding, etc. Nerfs to a mid tier character hurt the most (especially since I was just talking him up. RIP). Also means you'll die if you pull off this slick setup: http://gfycat.com/CleanSourKawala

Edit: Full match is here if the gfy wasn't clear enough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYVwUXRIJl0

This has always been the same. You could never use clown car twice in the air.

 

[Fatmanonice]

One change I haven't seen mentioned is that Bowser Jr. can only use one side special per air time now. This is pretty big actually, it guts his most important tool, ruins his edgeguarding, etc. Nerfs to a mid tier character hurt the most (especially since I was just talking him up. RIP). Also means you'll die if you pull off this slick setup: http://gfycat.com/CleanSourKawala

Edit: Full match is here if the gfy wasn't clear enough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYVwUXRIJl0

Just a third person confirming what Ubermadman and Baby_Sneak said. Plus, Bowser Jr has plenty of edgeguarding tools with the offstage Kart spinout being the most risky of them and his most useful tool itself is jump cancelling the Koopa Kart, not using it in the air.

 

[C0rvus]

I had forgotten the whole don't jump cancel it or that's it rule. Gotta stop talking about characters I don't play. Derp. I'll see myself out.

I'm glad I was wrong lol. I hope I'm also wrong about how strong Bayonetta is. They balanced her around having poor frame data, but Witch Twist betrays that point hard. Such a good move. She's a combo monster but has the best air dodge in the game. If your character gets a lot of mileage out of not quite true combos, Bayo will give you a hard time. Such a baffling design overall, but I stand by my opinion that she isn't top tier.

 

[Rizen]

This community is too ban friendly. They want everything banned. But because a normal character is not banned they are now nosediving into that "glitch" to get Bayonetta banned.
It's terrible enough that people try to restrict Mii's from their design but wanting a balanced character banned is something that would've never been considered 10 years ago.

Well excuse me for wanting to grab bayonetta. ...that doesn't sound right.

 

[PK Gaming]

Well excuse me for wanting to grab bayonetta. ...that doesn't sound right.

Except you can still do that 90% of the time
And like 90% of the cast can do it a 100% of the time

This discovery is way, way, way overblown

 

[DavemanCozy]

Honestly, it's just a glitch that is triggered through a dash grab... from behind. This is nowhere near as bad as Diddy's un-grabbable state, not to mention not even close to as dumb as his and Luigi's down-throw -> lelelel ur ded i win were.

I do think that it still should be addressed at some point, but come on that doesn't make Bayo ban-worthy.

 

[Ffamran]

So, sixriver's data on Bayonetta's slowly getting finished. What I was really curious was Bayonetta's Bullet Climax. It's frame 17 on startup and has 70 total frames. Oh, then it's terrible with 54 recovery frames compared to Falco's 48! Not really. Unlike Falco, she fires at a minimum, 4 times, so technically, according to sixriver, it's frame 37. This means she only has 34 recovery frames which is 1 frame off of Mario's Fireball. Pretty good considering the range and its usage as an anti-air, edgeguard, and zoning tool. Obviously, up close or if she's firing the wrong way, it's not going to matter as you're going to be right there to punish her, but at range, it's got good recovery letting her threaten people. Unfortunately, at this time, Charge Bullets's data isn't up, but considering that most chargeable projectiles have the same recovery frames, I'm going to assume that in whatever frame it fires at, it'll have 37 recovery frames since Bayonetta just resumes firing normally like in Bayonetta 2? - you can do this in DMC with Ebony & Ivory, but I don't know about B2 since I never played it.

What's the implications of this? Pretty bad for characters who are tall and need to get in, but are too slow and/or lack projectiles of their own. For some characters, it won't really matter as much; it'll just be another projectile for them to deal with. In some cases, even characters that can get hit like Fox, Little Mac, Lucina, Marth, Roy, and Sheik have running animations where they lean in close to the ground, so they won't care so long as they were running when she decided to fire. It's me, so it leads back to Falco... Bullet Climax pretty much does everything Falco's Blaster does now and some. Bayonetta really does have "everyone's" projectiles: Bullet Arts is Fox Blaster, Bullet Climax is Falco Blaster, but with the sustained fire of Fire Breath and Flamethrower, being a reverse Mario Fireball where instead of covering her jump, it's covering her opponent's jump, and the commitment of perhaps Sheik's Needle Storm, and the ability to quickly kill off-stage because of its high travel speed and higher trajectory making it similar to say, Cloud's Limit Break Blade Beam (the high coverage) or Link's Hero's Bow (the travel speed).

For anyone curious about sixriver's data on Bayonetta, this is the Specials page, the page before is her normals and the page after is the miscellaneous stuff like jump, roll, and air dodge frames: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...xjqBTA8pY14g/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=1777978906.

 

[Shaya]

Okay.

This whole discussion that has sprouted about whether or not Bayonetta should be banned is just utterly ****.
This thread, as all encompassing as it can be, is intended to focus on the tournament-level metagame.
In other words, the personal layer to one's posts should only ever exist in the most minute form possible; as you the poster in here are likely not an active participant in the tournament level metagame (and if you are, usually with fair moderation). This keeps this thread from becoming just another social with tons of useless posts or for glory anecdotes. Your opinion on legality (or having the discussion in here at all) shouldn't be here.

What Bayonetta (or whoever) can do or what others cannot do to her can be relevant, but by no means is this thread meant to replace an entire discussion forum for a character. Especially at the exploratory and speculative stages of their meta. Actual insight that can help a reader to learn or understand a character is still totally awesome, but all the 'get gid, smash community this that, whawah wah' just... makes this thread difficult to read and normally great posters are themselves falling into the trap rather than stemming away from it.

We need to step up here.

 

[Mario766]

Multi-twitching both Japanese tournaments and my first thought


"Not even the Japanese are SDI-ing damn"

Things don't travel very fast.

 

[Darkmoone1]

Okay.

This whole discussion that has sprouted about whether or not Bayonetta should be banned is just utterly ****.
This thread, as all encompassing as it can be, is intended to focus on the tournament-level metagame.
In other words, the personal layer to one's posts should only ever exist in the most minute form possible; as you the poster in here are likely not an active participant in the tournament level metagame (and if you are, usually with fair moderation). This keeps this thread from becoming just another social with tons of useless posts or for glory anecdotes. Your opinion on legality (or having the discussion in here at all) shouldn't be here.

What Bayonetta (or whoever) can do or what others cannot do to her can be relevant, but by no means is this thread meant to replace an entire discussion forum for a character. Especially at the exploratory and speculative stages of their meta. Actual insight that can help a reader to learn or understand a character is still totally awesome, but all the 'get gid, smash community this that, whawah wah' just... makes this thread difficult to read and normally great posters are themselves falling into the trap rather than stemming away from it.

We need to step up here.

The fact that it got brought up in the first place is just maddening when we've barely had the character for over a week now. Who the hell are we to even discuss(let alone decide) if this character gets played or not in a tournament or not. We've barely scratched her full potential to even approach that topic. As someone that roams the forum more than posting, it's a little sickening that it went down like this in the smashboards, where I often find intelligent discussion.

I think it's time to leave it(The topic) alone for now. Besides, actually talking about what she can do and all the little neat things people are discover is way more interesting than that. To branch off, I wanted to ask what are the impressions of Corrin for everyone so far? I feel as though with all the talk on Bayonetta and besides talk of the counter Corrin has, I feel as though the character is a little overshadowed by the other DLC character that came with him/her.