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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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R3D3MON

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Honestly, it's just a glitch that is triggered through a dash grab... from behind. This is nowhere near as bad as Diddy's un-grabbable state, not to mention not even close to as dumb as his and Luigi's down-throw -> lelelel ur ded i win were.

I do think that it still should be addressed at some point, but come on that doesn't make Bayo ban-worthy.
Sounds like someone is salty about luigi d-throw. Sadly, people still don't know how to DI it properly sometimes and actually get punished by luigi d-throw > tornado at high percents (which should not work after the mega-nerf to luigi). Also luigi's d-throw compensated for his terrible movement and offstage gameplay, and his inability to play a zoning/ranged gameplay in general. Please stop making statements about luigi that will anger me and other luigi mains, especially about a kill confirm that was actually completely DI-able at kill percents pre-patch.
 

Rizen

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Except you can still do that 90% of the time
And like 90% of the cast can do it a 100% of the time

This discovery is way, way, way overblown
TBH I don't think Bayo's ban worthy and my main can grab her but I can see how it's an annoyance to the characters it applies to. Bayo specifically has witch time that can only be beaten by a grab. Someone posted GimR's video previously, see the last half:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSM7y9gGc4k
Not being able to threaten with grab, albeit only in uncommon circumstances, does take away the mix-up to the best counter in the game that might lead to a 0-death combo. I agree it's overblown but it's not problem free either :ohwell:
 
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Ffamran

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Seems I'm biased to female Dante. :p

Corrin's data is getting there too on KuroganeHammer and sixriver and with her projectile, Dragon Fang Shot. Its startup is frame 15 for the shot and frame 24 for the bite uncharged. Total frames for both is frame 59. This is where things get interesting since it's the reverse of Wolf's Blaster where in Wolf's case, the bayonet hit comes first on frame 11 and the bolt comes out at frame 14. If I were to consider Wolf's Blaster recovery frames, it would be just for the bolt since that's the last hitbox out since the bayonet hitbox ends at 13. Also, his is more of a projectile with a melee hitbox to Corrin's projectile and melee fusion. In this case, I'm going to split it.

So, projectile-wise, it would have 45 recovery frames while bite-wise, with the last active hitbox on frame 25, it has 35 recovery frames. As a projectile that does 4% and stuns? Okay since it trades low recovery frames (ZSS's Paralyzer) for range. As a melee hit that does 10%, okay. Combined? Probably good since there's no other move we could compare with.

Charged, it fires in frame 45 and bites on frame 85 with 120 total frames. For the shot, that's 76 recovery frames and for the bite, that's 36. Considering that it does 13%, the range, the size of the hitbox, and that it stuns, I'd say 76 recovery frames is appropriate. For the bite? It does 20% and it has low recovery. Startup is high which makes sense since it's a charged move. Alone, it's nothing special when Ganondorf can do 21% to 24% off of a frame 21 Up Smash with 19 recovery frames. Together? At pointblank, the bite is confirmed by the shot and as everyone has seen by now, that's 33%. That's a hard punish if I ever seen one.

So, impressions from the frame data? First off, don't ever use a charged DFS in neutral. In general, don't use fully charged moves ever in neutral unless you're Meta Knight and sometimes Ganondorf... Uncharged would be fine. Not particularly safe, but not particularly easy to challenge since you will need to land above or behind her or you'll get bitten. That's the gimmick of uncharged DFS, it's essentially a projectile with a melee safety net. In Corrin's case, it's projectile to melee hit while Wolf's is melee hit to projectile.

Charged DFS seems to be like a fusion of Paralyzer and Falcon Punch. That's what each part of it is when charged. Alone, they're not really good, especially Falcon Punch, but together... Hoo, could you imagine what would happen if the Capt. had a stun gun to confirm into his Falcon Punch or ZSS had a Falcon Punch to be used after Paralyzer? Well, she kind of does... Anyway, that doesn't mean you can freely use it. Like I said, it's more of a hard punish if you manage to hit that close up. The shot coming out at frame 45 is 8 frames before Falcon Punch and that's hella slow. As a projectile, 13% with a lot of damage is good, but once again, it's slow and without being able to store a charge... Y'know, this would make it more like Phantom Slash if it had a stun projectile to confirm the Phantom Knight's attack.

I doubt there's a way to confirm a charged DFS 1v1, but confirming an uncharged one wouldn't be that bad either... 4% from the shot and 10% from the bite... In doubles, setting up a frame 45 move might not be a pipe dream... Yeah... Corrin's going to be stupid in teams. :p
 
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LancerStaff

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...I'll just post what I ment to from before the ruckus.

Bayonetta can shield after witch time to not get hit by multi-hit moves.

Tested Olimar's multi-hit utilt (f4, f6) yesterday and she could shield the 2nd hit after the witch timing the 1st. I don't know of anything that has 1f multi-hits off the top of my head.

I wonder what happens if you witch time during witch time.
Bat time. Like from an airdodge or a roll. With the Bats... Ugh, imagine how much commentators are going to screw up the Bayo terminology with how people can't even get Shulk right.

You can't really activate Witch Time during another Bayo's Witch Time I think... IDK, I suck at most characters.
 

DanGR

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To branch off, I wanted to ask what are the impressions of Corrin for everyone so far? I feel as though with all the talk on Bayonetta and besides talk of the counter Corrin has, I feel as though the character is a little overshadowed by the other DLC character that came with him/her.
I'm struggling to recognize Corrin's niche in the meta. While he seems like a decently solid character, I find myself wondering why I'd ever use him in tournament play over Rosalina or Cloud.

In neutral he has a similar-ish mid-range, passive threat that Rosalina possesses with Luma, in his fsmash having such long range + his amazing initial dash speed (it seems) coupled with instant side-b. You can threaten a lot of space without ever actually having to use those options. Rosalina's neutral is better. (Cloud's is too, but they play it very differently)

He's got good vertical juggle traps like both Cloud and Rosalina while he's juggling them upwards, but his poor ground speed prevents him from keeping up the pressure should they use one of those coveted burst mobility options or simply jump away. Both Cloud and Rosalina's advantage states on stage are better.

He doesn't seem to have a very threatening off-stage presence against many of the top/high tiers (imo so far!). Bair, while it has great range, is pretty slow as a tool for reactive edgeguarding, and the momentum shifting properties prevent consecutive uses offstage. Fair and nair both send opponents at really undesirable angles. Dair->side-b to the bottom of the stage (walled stages) has its uses offstage, but I find it unreliable and just better off as a mixup against airdodges. Counter has its uses. Side-b seems to have a lot of potential with its ledge-canceling and stage-stabbing properties, but honestly I haven't invested much time into developing that aspect of his gameplay yet. Rosalina's edgeguarding game seems significantly better while Cloud's seems a little better at this point.

That's all I want to type for now : P.
 
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bc1910

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The fact that people are suggesting this grab stuff is even remotely okay is unbelievable. Bad spacing? "Git gud"? **** outta here. This is a gamebreaking issue that punishes players for hitting their grabs, whether you like their spacing or not.

That said, it's not as bad as the Diddy grab glitch and it's not feasible to ban every character that can abuse it. I'm in the "play and pray" group. That is, praying for a hotfix.

----

On Corrin, I think she's an incredibly annoying character who ultimately struggles to crack defensive play. Her options against rolling aren't good due to her slow dash and bad out of dash options and her hitboxes don't have amazing active frames, making spotdodging quite effective. Her edgeguarding is definitely poor because most of her moves send at an upward angle. Her AD traps are nowhere near as good as Rosa's. Her mid range is great, though.

Nair's active frames, the range on her aerials, everything about Counter Surge and everything about Side B make for an extremely unfun character to fight IMO. But ultimately we're not looking at someone who can shut down half the cast in neutral, or gets kills for free at extremely low percents (Counter is still a risk, thankfully).
 

UberMadman

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DFS stuff
I found it interesting that you said not to fully charge it in neutral because I've personally found it to be safe enough as long as you don't charge the bite afterward, (unless you land it at point blank of course.) The projectile clanks with everything, but it is so big and travels quickly enough that if you wavebounce it on descent or something like that you can sometimes land it and then confirm it into tipper Side-B or F-Smash for the kill, depending on percent, while the opponent is often unable to punish it in return.
 

Locke 06

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...I'll just post what I ment to from before the ruckus.



Bat time. Like from an airdodge or a roll. With the Bats... Ugh, imagine how much commentators are going to screw up the Bayo terminology with how people can't even get Shulk right.

You can't really activate Witch Time during another Bayo's Witch Time I think... IDK, I suck at most characters.
Bat time isn't a thing. Bat within or bat escape. There's no time involved. Sorry I missed it, because usually people talk about multi-hits beating witch time, the only move of hers that involve time.

Unless she stays still with it, she won't be hit by the multi-hit. I don't quite know the mechanic well, but from what I understand you can directionally move like a Melee airdodge. With that established, bat within would be (generally) better against multi-hits because the time between the 1st hit and the FAF is (generally) longer because you still go through the rest of the multi-hit attack.

How are you playing defense against someone who can hit you with a 7f strong attack from outside the range where you do anything? Kamui oozes "walk forward and let your presence do the talking."
 
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UberMadman

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The fact that people are suggesting this grab stuff is even remotely okay is unbelievable. Bad spacing? "Git gud"? **** outta here. This is a gamebreaking issue that punishes players for hitting their grabs, whether you like their spacing or not.
Ok, first of all, it's only an issue that 5-ish characters have if they try to dash grab her, (not standing grab her,) specifically at point blank from behind when she's shielding, which is already so niche a problem it can hardly be described as gamebreaking.

Second of all, it IS a spacing issue because all of these characters CAN dash grab her from behind when she's shielding as long as they space out their grabs correctly. See, the thing is that the range where all of these grabs work is already the optimal range to attempt the grab from anyway because attempting to get close to her when she's in shield is already risking her to hit you with her frame 4 Witch Twist oos, causing you to take 25-30% or so due to combos, meaning that if you whiff the grab you were already playing inoptimally to begin with.

Is it a stupid factor? Yes. Should it be fixed? If the Smash team is willing. But as it stands, it's only going to be punishing people who aren't spacing their moves correctly anyway and will be a factor in maybe 1 out of 50 matches, and that's being pessimistic about it.

So yeah, to put it bluntly, learn to space your grabs.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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This "glitch" can be easily worked around. There are a lot more things to be worried about regarding Bayonetta than the glitch.

Like Witch Time.

And how it makes me cry...




Seriously, the glitch isn't all that bad. Corrin's glitches are the wonky ones. Focus on those and how they work.
 
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bc1910

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Ok, first of all, it's only an issue that 5-ish characters have if they try to dash grab her, (not standing grab her,) specifically at point blank from behind when she's shielding, which is already so niche a problem it can hardly be described as gamebreaking.

Second of all, it IS a spacing issue because all of these characters CAN dash grab her from behind when she's shielding as long as they space out their grabs correctly. See, the thing is that the range where all of these grabs work is already the optimal range to attempt the grab from anyway because attempting to get close to her when she's in shield is already risking her to hit you with her frame 4 Witch Twist oos, causing you to take 25-30% or so due to combos, meaning that if you whiff the grab you were already playing inoptimally to begin with.

Is it a stupid factor? Yes. Should it be fixed? If the Smash team is willing. But as it stands, it's only going to be punishing people who aren't spacing their moves correctly anyway and will be a factor in maybe 1 out of 50 matches, and that's being pessimistic about it.

So yeah, to put it bluntly, learn to space your grabs.
Everyone trying to defend this glitch is saying the same thing and hence defeating their own argument.

"Is it stupid? Yes. Should it be fixed? Yes. But blah blah blah..."

I feel there's nothing to discuss here.

As long we're in agreement it should be fixed, the details of whether it's a spacing issue or not aren't relevant.
 
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Luigi player

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There are A LOT of moves that whiff when being too near to the opponent. Some were fixed, some not.
For the cases where the grabs didn't connect on Bayonetta, they went too far. -> better get your spacing right, or maybe hope it gets fixed.
In all of the footage I saw of it it was obvious why this happens: they basically grab when they *would* run past her (in any of the previous Smash games you'd go through). Your fault for grabbing while basically running past someone, even if this game doesn't let you go through.
Some characters are just really small / thin and hard to hit, that's nothing gamebreaking, just annoying. And shouldn't be adressed as a bug or glitch, so please stop with that. There would be a lot of moves that could use this fixing, so just adressing one, labeling it "HAS TO BE FIXED CUZ GAMEBREAKING", because you feel like that is worse than for other cases is kinda unfair.
 
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IsmaR

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Top 8 for Sumabato had no overlapping characters.

1) Komorikiri :4bayonetta:

2) Sigma :4tlink:

3) Gomamugitya :4lucario:

4) Atelier :rosalina:

5) Aki :4sheik: / :4ryu: / :4falco:

5) Saiya :4falcon:

7) MASA :4ness:

7) Nagahari :4diddy:

Top 8 for Umebura, on the other hand, had 3 Sheiks/3 Clouds (and secondaries)

1) Rain :4sheik: / :4cloud:

2) Hayato :4tlink:

3) Nietono :4sheik:

4) Nariyasu :4cloud: / :4mario:

5) Eim :4sheik:

5) Nyanko :4bayonetta:

7) Umeki :4peach:

7) Kamemushi :4cloud: / :4megaman:

All matches for both will be uploaded to SHI-Gaming shortly
 

ARGHETH

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So another new dlc wins a Japanese tournament in the first week.

Are we going to say its matchup inexperience like it was for Cloud?
2nd and 3rd place was a TL and Lucario and this is Komorikiri. I'm fairly certain that all this proves is that Bayonetta is a good character, which is something we knew already.
 

Bowserboy3

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What makes me laugh about this whole Bayonetta grabbing situation is that Mewtwo apparently has the same occurence, and it's been known about since he was released. Has that been a problem since? No. In fact, it's been unheard of.

I think we should at least wait and see how much of a problem it really is. It's not even like they can't be grabbed from behind while in shield at all, it's just you have to space it better. Yes, it's annoying and something to think about, but you can still pivot/standing grab them. They still experience all normal shielding occurrences, such as pushback, shield damage etc. If for example they couldn't be grabbed at all from behind while in shield, then yes, I would say we have a major problem on our hands, but seeing as there are still other options, and the fact that dash grabs still work (you just have to space them) makes me think all of this has been blown way out of proportion.

Finally, it's limited (luckily) to just a handful of characters. It's nothing like the ungrabbable Diddy glitch at all.
 
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Shaya

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I hope the conversation about this annoying design quirk can stop now. All that's necessary has been said... at least five times.
I wasn't really wanting to set up an opportunity for everyone to continue the other half of the conversation, but rather stop it entirely.
If it somehow proves an issue at tournament, then we can worry about it.

Shtop now.
 

IsmaR

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Just to point out, 9B also attended Sumabato/went only Bayo, and he lost fairly early on (first to Saiya's Falcon, then to Komo in dittos).

Abadango lost with MK (also busted out his Mewtwo AND Robin) at Umebura. He lost to Nietono and then Nyanko, placing 9th (alongside the likes of Brood :4duckhunt: and Choco :4zss:).

Lastly of note, both Masashi and Earth opted to use Corrin over the usual Pit/Dark Pit. The latter won grand finals of the "B" bracket.
 

A2ZOMG

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Before the patch Ike destroyed Marth, now it's closer.

It'll still be rough because Ike still gets massive reward off hits while Marth doesn't, Ike got better combo tools and kill confirms...which Marth still didn't really get. Ike's the real terror for the other FE characters.
I disagree from personal experience. Marth gets all the reward he needs by just gimping Ike. It's extremely hard for Ike to recover against Marth's edgeguard tools unless there's platforms, which Marth abuses better for stage control than Ike either way due to superior frame data. Ike is generally forced to recover high against Marth which by no means is close to being risk free. Any time he's forced to recover low, he essentially should never make it back.

This is on top of the fact that Marth is really hard for Ike to legitimately beat in neutral when they have similar range on preferred pokes, but Marth is strictly faster on almost everything.

Also you are overrating Ike's kill confirms. They aren't guaranteed usually in a typical match when rage is factored (even if Ike kinda doesn't mind fishing for random kills), and Marth does not exactly fall quite as fast as Ike would prefer for that.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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I love how everybody loses their **** over ****ing Komrikiri winning a tournament just because it's Bayonetta.

But for some reason nobody seems to care that Toon Link took 2nd at both tournaments? Can we like please start talking about that some more [at least until we actually have representative tournament data from Bayonetta]? Last weekend also had 3 or 4 Lucario players placing very high at some pretty stacked tournaments, that also seems to have gotten lost among the Bayonetta-hyperbole. Both characters have a multitude of players [at least three each] bringing home very strong results recently. I think at this point it's no longer justified for characters like ROB or Wario to be placed higher than them.

:059:
 

predator_21476

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I disagree from personal experience. Marth gets all the reward he needs by just gimping Ike. It's extremely hard for Ike to recover against Marth's edgeguard tools unless there's platforms, which Marth abuses better for stage control than Ike either way due to superior frame data. Ike is generally forced to recover high against Marth which by no means is close to being risk free, because any time he's forced to recover low, he essentially should never make it back.

This is on top of the fact that Marth is really hard for Ike to legitimately beat in neutral when they have similar range on preferred pokes, but Marth is strictly faster on almost everything.
Ike is almost never forced to recover low even if he is its not like he is immediately dead. Aether can be annoying to beat and counter Isn't a free gimp on Ike. You can just turn around the aether and land on stage. It's riskier but it's a nice mixup to beat out counter.
 

A2ZOMG

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Ike is almost never forced to recover low even if he is its not like he is immediately dead. Aether can be annoying to beat and counter Isn't a free gimp on Ike. You can just turn around the aether and land on stage. It's riskier but it's a nice mixup to beat out counter.
High recovery is literally Ike's only option that doesn't instantly guarantee he dies, and this is not exactly foolproof if Marth follows his movement which he can either swat or counter at low risk. Furthermore, Ike in a real game does not always have the luxury of recovering high in low-mid percent situations.

And ledgedrop Counter is a free gimp on any low recovery vs Ike. This isn't exactly up for debate. If Ike is recovering low, you can always react with ledgedrop counter, and he basically can't survive it.
 
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MistressRemilia

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I love how everybody loses their **** over ****ing Komrikiri winning a tournament just because it's Bayonetta.

But for some reason nobody seems to care that Toon Link took 2nd at both tournaments? Can we like please start talking about that some more [at least until we actually have representative tournament data from Bayonetta]? Last weekend also had 3 or 4 Lucario players placing very high at some pretty stacked tournaments, that also seems to have gotten lost among the Bayonetta-hyperbole. Both characters have a multitude of players [at least three each] bringing home very strong results recently. I think at this point it's no longer justified for characters like ROB or Wario to be placed higher than them.

:059:
With Serge beating Leo, and Monatsube keeping marvelous results in Japanese tours.
I've been thinking: Is Lucario better than we thought?
I mean, he's a respectable Mid tier to the eyes of many, but it doesn't go any higher than that. The thoughts of Lucario being closer to Mid High or even High tier hasn't been thought much. Idk much about Lucario, i do know he has a pretty hard Rosalina matchup from what i've heard. He's kind of one of those Mid Tier Ghosts, alongside Toon Link, where discussions about them are tough because not a lot of people aside from their mains & few knowledgeable person can accurately share their opinion on the character. I could see Lucario being a strong threat given the fact he has done really well lately, but i can"t say much more, really.
 
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predator_21476

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High recovery is literally Ike's only option that doesn't instantly guarantee he dies, and this is not exactly foolproof if Marth follows his movement which he can either swat or counter at low risk. Furthermore, Ike in a real game does not always have the luxury of recovering high in low-mid percent situations.

And ledgedrop Counter is a free gimp on any low recovery vs Ike. This isn't exactly up for debate. If Ike is recovering low, you can always react with ledgedrop counter, and he basically can't survive it.
If you reverse the aether the counter misses. It happens all the time. Gimping Ike is not as easy as you make it out to be. Marth will also not always be able to get to the edgeguard most of his neutral is not that threatning to Ike. Even with the better frame data because of Ike has more range on pretty much everything and just ignores half of what Marth wants to do.
 

Yikarur

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I doubt there's a way to confirm a charged DFS 1v1, but confirming an uncharged one wouldn't be that bad either... 4% from the shot and 10% from the bite... In doubles, setting up a frame 45 move might not be a pipe dream... Yeah... Corrin's going to be stupid in teams. :p
You know that you can charge the bite independed from the shot? if you hit the DFS uncharged at close range the stun is long enough to follow with a full charged bite.
I've got full charged DFS into full charged bite twice with b-reversing -> "surprising" landing punish. It's should not overlooked.
 
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A2ZOMG

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If you reverse the aether the counter misses. It happens all the time. Gimping Ike is not as easy as you make it out to be. Marth will also not always be able to get to the edgeguard most of his neutral is not that threatning to Ike. Even with the better frame data because of Ike has more range on pretty much everything and just ignores half of what Marth wants to do.
This assumes in the first place you have room to get far under the stage, which you won't when Marth pressures you with the threat of superior frame data aerials. From there, Marth grabs the ledge and waits. Everything you do from there Marth can kill you for purely on reaction.

Also Ike's range really is not significantly greater than Marth's. Not even sure where you even get that idea.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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Motsunabe has beaten Kirihara's Rosalina last weekend. If you dig through some of my older posts I have actually compiled some of Kirihara's results to show his numerous credentials so that win is definitely non-trivial. Lucario is also still somewhat of a contender for going evenish with Sheik and Serge beating Leo can't mean nothing either. That kind of begs the question who Lucario still does poorly against. ZSS and Fox with their KO power and setups seem like contenders but it's really hard to say. Lucario may be one of those MKesque characters who "don't really have matchups".

It's kind of interesting though because way back in the earliest 3DS days a lot of people [including Shaya Shaya and myself] have speculated and theorized that Lucario might just be one of the best characters in the game. Then VI got massively nerfed and with his general lack of representation he kind of dropped out of the spotlight and nobody seemed to care about him anymore. Maybe we're seeing some sort of revival [which makes me wonder just how powerful that character truly was back when VI was still a thing] right now but it's definitely possible that he's one of them "secret" top tiers whose potential hasn't quite been tapped into yet.

I'm like 99% sure he's a better character than Wario at the very least. Wario is relatively high on the tier list because he was doing well for some time but what people don't realize is how badly Wario got 'outbuffed' over time. His bad matchups [which are quite numerous with Sheik, ZSS, Diddy Kong, Mario, Fox and Yoshi all having considerable advantages against Wario] are still as bad as they ever were and a good chunk of the cast that Wario used to do well against have received buffs to the point where Wario hardly beats anybody anymore, most notably the entire FE crew and Shulk. Matchups like vs Mewtwo, WFT or Bowser that used to be free are really difficult now. I think customless Wario has a lot of downward potential left. He still trolls Rosalina for days though.

:059:
 

predator_21476

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This assumes in the first place you have room to get far under the stage, which you won't when Marth pressures you with the threat of superior frame data aerials. From there, Marth grabs the ledge and waits. Everything you do from there Marth can kill you for purely on reaction.

Also Ike's range really is not significantly greater than Marth's. Not even sure where you even get that idea.
This assumes that Marth has the presence to always get people offstage. Maybe I'm underselling Marth's edgeguarding here because the Marth that I play against hasn't really developed an edguarding game ( like most people). I just can't see how goes edguarding is that amazing. His frame data isn't that good and if a double jump is saved he's not that hard to get around. However I still can't see him beating Ike he doesn't do enough to beat him.
 

A2ZOMG

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This assumes that Marth has the presence to always get people offstage. Maybe I'm underselling Marth's edgeguarding here because the Marth that I play against hasn't really developed an edguarding game ( like most people). I just can't see how goes edguarding is that amazing. His frame data isn't that good and if a double jump is saved he's not that hard to get around. However I still can't see him beating Ike he doesn't do enough to beat him.
Do yourself a favor and start abusing ledgedrop counter as Ike.

Realize how actually braindead it is in several matchups (Roy's matchup against Marth and Ike is almost unwinnable due to that alone).

Realize Marth can do that, and has better everything else for most practical edgeguards that aren't 2 frame abuse.
 
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predator_21476

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Do yourself a favor and start abusing ledgedrop counter as Ike.

Realize how actually braindead it is in several matchups (Roy's matchup against Marth and Ike is almost unwinnable due to that alone).

Realize Marth can do that, and has better everything else for most practical edgeguards that aren't 2 frame abuse.
I know Roy gets screwed by that he has one recovery option offstage and can't mix it up. But you're not always in a position to pull it off. It is fantastic when you are but it's not the end all be all of edge guards. Sometimes it's better for Ike to use eruption because of the way some recoveries work.
 

Vipermoon

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A2ZOMG A2ZOMG I read your Marth vs Ike conversation all in one go and what's plainly obvious is that you are THE KING OF THEORY. What do you actually know about this MU other than just theory? It doesn't even appear that you use these characters.
 

A2ZOMG

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A2ZOMG A2ZOMG I read your Marth vs Ike conversation all in one go and what's plainly obvious is that you are THE KING OF THEORY. What do you actually know about this MU other than just theory? It doesn't even appear that you use these characters.
I actually play Ike on the side. Marth matchup is super annoying when they get really consistent at covering options offstage given Marth doesn't really struggle to win neutral vs Ike.

And I can say with extremely high confidence that ledgedrop Counter BODIES certain low recoveries, including Ike's, because I've done it a LOT.
 
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Yikarur

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Thats the reason Ike mirror matches are pretty dumb. They just counter each other to death if they have to recover low.
 

Mazdamaxsti

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I actually play Ike on the side. Marth matchup is super annoying when they get really consistent at covering options offstage given Marth doesn't really struggle to win neutral vs Ike.

And I can say with extremely high confidence that ledgedrop Counter BODIES certain low recoveries, including Ike's, because I've done it a LOT.
Playing a character on the side, and then saying any character who can ledge-drop counter is a counter to ike/Roy is absurd.
 

predator_21476

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Thats the reason Ike mirror matches are pretty dumb. They just counter each other to death if they have to recover low.
They can also use aether to beat aether. There are a lot of weird things that can happen in mirror matches in general.
 

Vipermoon

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I actually play Ike on the side. Marth matchup is super annoying when they get really consistent at covering options offstage given Marth doesn't really struggle to win neutral vs Ike.

And I can say with extremely high confidence that ledgedrop Counter BODIES certain low recoveries, including Ike's, because I've done it a LOT.
I don't have time, sorry for entering this conversation like that. But real quick...

Last patch, for sure Marth loses to Ike at something like a 60 40. Every aerial Ike did against Marth was safe and every move, including Dtilt, Marth just couldn't play the disjoint game with. When Marth gets up close Jab will usually stuff his approach. If you shield you get grabbed and while you don't have a grab game at all against Ike (because weight dependent throws and Ike is heavy), he has a great one against you. I don't know why, for some reason Marth is easy to combo. He has a low gravity rating so you would think that he doesn't take much hitstun... yet he has a very large window for MK's death combo, for Dr. Mario's Dthrow Fair and for Ike's Uthrow Fair and landing Nair stuff.

This patch, any buff Marth got pretty much gets nullified by Ike's 1.5 units bigger and stronger Fair for this MU. However, this is my opinion because I don't have any experience for the 1.1.4 MU.

What you say against edgeguarding is too simplified. Ike's do a lot to avoid getting gimped. Marth can theoretically cover every option pretty well but in no way is this guaranteed. Also, you forget about Eruption which is pretty easy to land against Marth, even when he Fspecial stalls.

You were right that Marth does pretty well against the other FE reps. He did slightly lose to Robin last patch thanks to Robin's damage output, Levin aerials, and kill set-ups. This patch, there is no way that's true. Marth's buffs directly help him against Robin.
 

predator_21476

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I don't have time, sorry for entering this conversation like that. But real quick...

Last patch, for sure Marth loses to Ike at something like a 60 40. Every aerial Ike did against Marth was safe and every move, including Dtilt, Marth just couldn't play the disjoint game with. When Marth gets up close Jab will usually stuff his approach. If you shield you get grabbed and while you don't have a grab game at all against Ike (because weight dependent throws and Ike is heavy), he has a great one against you. I don't know why, for some reason Marth is easy to combo. He has a low gravity rating so you would think that he doesn't take much hitstun... yet he has a very large window for MK's death combo, for Dr. Mario's Dthrow Fair and for Ike's Uthrow Fair and landing Nair stuff.

This patch, any buff Marth got pretty much gets nullified by Ike's 1.5 units bigger and stronger Fair for this MU. However, this is my opinion because I don't have any experience for the 1.1.4 MU.

What you say against edgeguarding is too simplified. Ike's do a lot to avoid getting gimped. Marth can theoretically cover every option pretty well but in no way is this guaranteed. Also, you forget about Eruption which is pretty easy to land against Marth, even when he Fspecial stalls.

You were right that Marth does pretty well against the other FE reps. He did slightly lose to Robin last patch thanks to Robin's damage output, Levin aerials, and kill set-ups. This patch, there is no way that's true. Marth's buffs directly help him against Robin.
From the little that I've played the Matchup in this patch it feels pretty much the same. They both have slightly harder punishes but the fair range increase in both of the leaves it very similar. However the range increase on the ground helps Marth a bit here. Though overall it feels very similar.To quote the Marth I play "Marth feels better but you can play the same way and still beat Marth."
 

Y2Kay

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I love how everybody loses their **** over ****ing Komrikiri winning a tournament just because it's Bayonetta.

But for some reason nobody seems to care that Toon Link took 2nd at both tournaments? Can we like please start talking about that some more [at least until we actually have representative tournament data from Bayonetta]? Last weekend also had 3 or 4 Lucario players placing very high at some pretty stacked tournaments, that also seems to have gotten lost among the Bayonetta-hyperbole. Both characters have a multitude of players [at least three each] bringing home very strong results recently. I think at this point it's no longer justified for characters like ROB or Wario to be placed higher than them.

:059:
I just wanna add on to this and say :4greninja: got THREE top 8 placings at big tournaments this weekend.

- Venia got 4th at nebolous (the one with Anti)
- istudying got 3rd at Avalon U-II
- Some got something in top 8 at Umebura(?)

Will people ignore these results anyway?

Yes.

Will people continue to say greninja has no results?

Also Yes.

Hey, but that's the messed up cycle that is :4greninja: 's life.

:150:
 

~ Gheb ~

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The competition at avalon is pretty free tbh. His placing at Beast VI will be a lot more representative. Some doesn't place consistently and doesn't have too many top level players under his belt. Not sure what wins Venia has yet so it remains to be seen.

Lucario's and Toon Link's results are better. Greninja's are ... OK

Don't ask me why Greninja is below somebody like ROB though.

:059:
 
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