Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Y2Kay]

is weird.

His gimmick doesn't seem to work on paper this game. He wants to live long, but characters like have frickin' doctorates in killing people early.

But keeps proving me wrong. He seems like he would just struggle to break out, but he keeps breaking out anyway. He's an anomaly to me.

TL;DR: He way too anime for me to comprehend well

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

is weird.

His gimmick doesn't seem to work on paper this game. He wants to live long, but characters like have frickin' doctorates in killing people early.

But keeps proving me wrong. He seems like he would just struggle to break out, but he keeps breaking out anyway. He's an anomaly to me.

TL;DR: He way too anime for me to comprehend well

Put shulk in that list too.
At least this isn't PM

 

[bc1910]

FWIW I think Greninja vs Mewtwo is even.

I'm probably one of five people who will never really get the competitive appeal of Peach or Lucario. I don't feel like that they're too far different from how they were in Brawl, characters that were perpetually overrated because people swore up and down that they'd tear the high tiers a new one once they were fully optimized but that day never came thanks to low support and questionable top/high tier match ups.

I actually agree with you on Peach. I think her suspect mobility holds her back more than her technical stuff boosts her. It's impossible to say that for sure since she's clearly not optimized, but I wouldn't say I "get" Peach. I can't justify placing her outside top 20 though since she has some solid results behind her and very winnable MUs with the best characters. Not sure what @wedl thinks about Peach's tier placement?

Lucario is BS incarnate because of the changes to Aura. He "transcends" MUs because of Aura, a bit like MK does because of the ladder combo. This kind of thing seriously boosts his tier position.

 

[Nobie]

I'm having a hard time imagining how Mewtwo does well against Pit.

Pit's a zone breaker like Mewtwo, but Mewtwo can't shut down arrows like he can other projectiles nor can he scare him out of reflecting because of GO's unique break animation. Throwing out a SB at anything but max range can be a risky proposition because if Mewtwo's too close then he can end up not being able to spam Confusion fast enough, and remember GOs don't stop momentum like most reflectors.

Mewtwo can't afford to throw out anything punishable because Pit's f6 Usmash is... Frame 6 and still powerful. Mewtwo's tallness makes it easy to land compared to most characters. Pit's Uair further exasperates his disadvantage problems and awkward tumble. Arrows quite significantly cut down on charging opportunities after somebody's launched. Pit's range on his attacks keep Mewtwo's powerful but shorter ranged attacks at bay, and Pit's superior disjoint means he can muscle through Mewtwo's longer ranged moves like Bair and his tilts.

I wouldn't say Mewtwo has an edge over Pit, but if we interpret "does well" with "more or less goes even" then I think it's okay.

Mewtwo I wouldn't really call a Zone Breaker. It's not really his game plan. He sort of CAN be if he wants to, but for the most part he wants to space the opponent out at whatever distance is ideal for him, and he has a plethora of tools that can keep the opponent from out-spacing him. For example, if you're fighting Yoshi you can play a ground-based footsies game to counteract his aerial speed. Against Ryu the presence of Shadow Ball and Confusion are enough to force Ryu to approach, which helps out in that match.

But overall, you mention that Pit's superior disjoint will beat Mewtwo's longer range moves AND his shorter range moves, but that's really a two-way street. It's all about getting into the ideal range where your attacks can beat theirs, and given that both characters are at least decently mobile and have nice, ranged attacks, and decent frame data, it's not like it's a cake walk.

Pit has solutions for Mewtwo. Mewtwo has solutions for Pit. Neither of them require a "HARD REEAAAAD" or anything like that.

 

[Luig]

I felt like sharing this thing that isn't very well known.
There's a bug on sonic's spin dashes that hasn't been patched (and probably never will be.)

 

[Aaron1997]

Since we are talking about Mid tier lets bring up His spread is ok.. He doesn't beat many high tiers besides Luigi but he doesn't lose really lose very hard to many. is but its better than people think and we have the results to prove it. is decent but it really comes down to how many Grabs she can get. is interesting. People Asume this is s worst Match-up but really not the case. Top Pacman players like Sinji say Pacman wins. As a Pacman main myself. This match-up is even or very slightly in s favor.

He also goes evenish with
Beats
And loses to

Also the Top level rep has fallen off. Abadango Dropped him so more in top 8 in Majors for a little bit. So whats left if Tea, Sinji and Zage. Tea is not ready. (he just to his 3rd tourney last night lol) Sinji has only beat Jtails and Numbers and Zage despite doing well vs ZeRo is mega inconsistent and has done nothing since then besides getting top 2 a Xanadu twice.

This is just my take of Pacmans Curret state in the Meta at the moment.

 

[MajorMajora]

So CosmicCosmos has picked up Corrin and has been doing some impressive things with it. It looks like the character has more potential than I thought, mostly due to the quick side-b technique. She's no s-tier but winning grand finals at shockwave certainly says good things. She's higher than the mid-tier a lot of people were guessing.

 

[Shaya]

Corrin is hard to talk about at this stage, just has this very diverse kit with about 50 extra options overloaded into every move. It's not as straight forward a result as how Bayonetta's specials (or mechanics) work so how they come to play out may take a bit of time.

They have a very good ftilt for poking, and it can set up juggles at various percent. Down tilt and up tilt are both fantastic at comboing, feasibly even at kill percent; up tilt seems to essentially be a god tier hitbox that cannot be beaten from below no matter what.
Neutral B functions almost too well as a landing projectile option (for wavebouncing or whatever); if you only have horizontal line tools, trying to punish it and get through can be complicated (and dangerous).

Nair is a huge button, makes her landing and non-commital zoning really superb and easy. No real thought necessary for this move and can easily find you set ups into just about every other move she has. She controls so much if she gets you with nair near the ground. Doesn't really make sense how huge this thing is.

Fair is essentially the lower damage, slightly less range (only now though after buffs), 1 frame slower start up Marth forward air with lower landing lag, less end lag, an applicable auto cancel, and Marth's melee tipper knockback angle; making it a somewhat potent wall and stupendously good at stringing itself together. The total potential of this move is obviously high, restricted by the slower ground specs a bit, but has a lot of room to find follow ups or other things from.

That plus a few awkward but potent long range kill moves in side-b and forward smash (up smash is crazy too but hard to land), and you have a pretty "big" character.
However, with all these fantastic tools, you wonder where the glue is. The lack of an intended/obvious game plan makes for a pretty enjoyable experience with different play styles from just about every Corn I've seen thus far.
Give it a bit of time though and I think they're just going to go be ZSS-styled game play; her kit didn't really have anything which defined her play style so it came down to optimizing safety, movement and punishes and hopefully having it work out. For ZSS it worked out.

For Corrin it will very likely work out... there just doesn't seem to be any real exploitable weaknesses to this character's kit.
Can easily feel that she's a stronger character than Marth, significantly easier with similar "potential" reward to Robin, and idk about Ike but I'm sure he's salty about at least one or two things ("why is my nair the 2x as slow in every way, yet I still get so much mileage out of this, my god when the Corns figure this one out *sadface*").

Oh, and on the point of Ike. Ike's never really beaten Marth in this game.
Marth has always had a significantly better mid-range game than Ike, the reactive punishment factor carried over from Brawl without too much loss. I'd say it's fair to have Ike edge it out due to being much easier to execute with his grab game, but Ike is one of those characters Marth gets a lot out of grabbing due to his option coverage as well.

 

[predator_21476]

Marth's ground moves outrange Ike D-tilt (and Jab for that matter) so I don't even know why you brought that one up. Ike F-tilt is sorta annoying retreating given it's one of the best anti-airs in the game by far, but overall Ike actually can't play a lot of his ground game against Marth willy nilly when he's kinda tall and Marth outspeeds him by no small margin both in frame and ground speed. I have no idea why you think differently. Ike kinda obviously loses neutral against Marth, and considering how hard he gets edgeguarded, it's actually a big deal.

Marth does eat certain combos due to his height much like other human-sized characters, that much is common knowledge if you ask me. Ike does big damage out of throw -> F-air, but it's unlikely to actually KO confirm in a real game due to Rage. More importantly, the reward Marth gets from setting up edgeguards is arguably greater than that when it's extremely realistic, and in several situations guaranteed for Marth to secure the KO from it even at low percents

I also have no idea how you believe Eruption is easy to land against Marth's Up-B, which safely sharks the ledge and basically travels its full distance faster than the release startup of Eruption (F-special stalling if anything makes it easier for Ike to hit you, not that he will given how impractically difficult it is in actual practice). That, sounds like major theorycraft frankly. As someone who predominantly mains Ganon and Doc, I've heavily labbed edgeguarding situations generally speaking. And I do believe I can simplify edgeguarding terms to the ones I have because edgeguarding actually is pretty cut and dry, even against good players given there's only a limited number of ways you can fundamentally mix up options offstage. Ike's only option to not instantly die is in fact recovering high, when everything he does below the stage can be reacted to by ledgedrop counter.

I would argue I generally have much better recovery mixups than most competitive players and consider myself super creative offstage. And I say with full confidence that recovering low as Ike against a Marth or Lucina that knows the matchup is an instant death sentence, simply by playing the correct flowchart.

In SoCal, there's a player named Oki who mains MK and seconds Roy. He's been considered for PR in the past, and generally beats me solidly.

Playing his Roy as Ike, I've beaten him in that matchup more than he's beaten me simply because Roy's options offstage are way too limited for him to survive Counter edgeguard in most situations, and his other primary alternative which is recovering high with Blazer is also both limited, not particularly hard to cover or anti-condition, and heavily punishable. This is on top of Roy actually having enough of a loss of range compared to Ike (and worse frame data than Marth) that it affects him pretty negatively in neutral.

Roy at least before the Marth buffs had better frame data than Marth on the majority of his moves. He loses the range game to both Marth and Ike not frame data. Also if edgeguarding is as easy as you say it is why is no one doing it. This sounds very theory based. Also Roy's recovery is just absolutely atrocious he's one of the easiest characters to edgeguard along the lines of doctor Mario and little Mac. Also Ike's ftilt more or less invalidates half of Marth's groundgame because his Jab becomes negligible when I can ftilt any time he tries it. The he's left with his tilts which while good limits his ground game. Marth doesn't beat Ike in neutral I've played that enough to know that's not the case.

 

[C0rvus]

I've always seen Mewtwo as a potent anti zoner. He has a threatening projectile, reflector that also is a command grab, and a few safe pokes that start combos. These give him pretty good neutral, especially with his new run speed and air speed being above average. Depakote being a glass cannon, a patient, safe Mewtwo is very potent in my opinion.

 

[LancerStaff]

I wouldn't say Mewtwo has an edge over Pit, but if we interpret "does well" with "more or less goes even" then I think it's okay.

Mewtwo I wouldn't really call a Zone Breaker. It's not really his game plan. He sort of CAN be if he wants to, but for the most part he wants to space the opponent out at whatever distance is ideal for him, and he has a plethora of tools that can keep the opponent from out-spacing him. For example, if you're fighting Yoshi you can play a ground-based footsies game to counteract his aerial speed. Against Ryu the presence of Shadow Ball and Confusion are enough to force Ryu to approach, which helps out in that match.

But overall, you mention that Pit's superior disjoint will beat Mewtwo's longer range moves AND his shorter range moves, but that's really a two-way street. It's all about getting into the ideal range where your attacks can beat theirs, and given that both characters are at least decently mobile and have nice, ranged attacks, and decent frame data, it's not like it's a cake walk.

Pit has solutions for Mewtwo. Mewtwo has solutions for Pit. Neither of them require a "HARD REEAAAAD" or anything like that.

I'm just not seeing what exactly makes it even either... For a lack of a better way to put this, it seems like Pit's the better character here and Mewtwo doesn't have anything that particularly messes with Pit's gameplan. Like, at best Pit can struggle against powerful characters but Mewtwo's weight pretty much negates that. Dangit

 

[Y2Kay]

I know this isn't what you wanted for me to draw from that video, but Mew^2 making it into grand finals for the 3rd time is really impressive

 

[~ Gheb ~]

His advantage that he REALLY had before he got butchered was his positive MU's over otherwise known as common tournament threats hence why everyone rated him in top 10 even top 5 although Luigi was counter-pickable.

Luigi never had the advantage against Sonic at any point and he still beats Fox, Mario, Pikachu and Diddy.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I don't know why the Ike MU thread thinks they win against Sonic, maybe it's because a lot of mid-level Sonics have an addiction for using spindash which Ike is fairly good at stopping. I really don't see how Sonic loses tbh. Sonic has far better mobility and burst speed to outpace Ike in both offence and defence. Sonic overall keeps better stage control than Ike throughout the match. Offstage it gets a bit closer since both have the tools to edgeguard each other fairly well, but I'd say Sonic has the easier time doing this.

Besides what I said before and more: as far as I'm aware every top level Sonic but Seagull has a losing record against top level Ikes. And some have even started to lose games against mid level Ikes. And that was before the most recent patch.

Like if you took all of the top level Ike vs Sonic matches and tallied them up... its not even close really. You can theorize that Sonics play the MU wrong all you want, but until they actually prove as much, Ike has the advantage. A fairly concrete one at that. Sonic may have mobility, but he has no range. Ike mains have proven that massive disjointed range + no landing lag > Speed. Stage control means nothing when you're heavily gambling any time you have to try to approach Ike. Ike gets hit by a spin dash and he's taking 20-something percent. Ike grabs a spin dash and Sonic is taking 30-something percent.

And Ike's speed isn't terrible either. I'd also say Ike's edgeguarding > Sonic in the MU. Walk-off Fair outranges anything Sonic can try to throw back. Or just Eruption. Sonic has.... springs against aether. He can't do much against Quick Draw, and trying to use an aerial against aether is risking getting snagged and spike'd.

A2ZOMG I played against a Marth as Ike in the last tournament I went to a few months ago. He kept trying to use Counter against my Aether. Don't think he landed it more than once the whole set, and the time it landed I still made it back. Meanwhile I hit his recovery with Eruption the one time I tried.

Counter is a problem, but its not a death sentence. Its most likely just going to tack on some extra damage if the Ike knows how to recover correctly. I also found the neutral game pretty darn easy to play out.

 

[Yikarur]

Lucario is a lot different then his Brawl version.
They ruined his moveset but doubled the power of aura.
Such good game design

 

[A2ZOMG]

A2ZOMG I played against a Marth as Ike in the last tournament I went to a few months ago. He kept trying to use Counter against my Aether. Don't think he landed it more than once the whole set, and the time it landed I still made it back. Meanwhile I hit his recovery with Eruption the one time I tried.

Counter is a problem, but its not a death sentence. Its most likely just going to tack on some extra damage if the Ike knows how to recover correctly. I also found the neutral game pretty darn easy to play out.

Most Marth, Ike, and Lucina players I've seen are extremely behind on positioning ledgedrop Counter, given I strictly recall actually telling your boards to abuse it more. I'm not exactly convinced without further detail.

Roy at least before the Marth buffs had better frame data than Marth on the majority of his moves. He loses the range game to both Marth and Ike not frame data. Also if edgeguarding is as easy as you say it is why is no one doing it. This sounds very theory based. Also Roy's recovery is just absolutely atrocious he's one of the easiest characters to edgeguard along the lines of doctor Mario and little Mac. Also Ike's ftilt more or less invalidates half of Marth's groundgame because his Jab becomes negligible when I can ftilt any time he tries it. The he's left with his tilts which while good limits his ground game. Marth doesn't beat Ike in neutral I've played that enough to know that's not the case.

Slower startup on EVERYTHING = better frame data?

You sound very confused.

And people sometimes just don't do things they don't know. I actually do the stuff I say, and confirm it works against real players before coming here and telling you why you should abuse it more.

Sounds like you also play bad Marths who have no idea how to abuse superior mobility. Ike F-tilt is a great move, but it's very whiff punishable if not spaced well and still has noticeable enough startup that makes it not spammable.

 

[Lavani]

They have a very good ftilt for poking, and it's sour spot can combo.

Ftilt doesn't have a sourspot, all three hitboxes have the same numbers and there isn't a late hit on it. It can combo into utilt at low % and uair at mid% on fastfallers (tight link) if they DI in though, which I'm guessing is what you're referring to.

I strongly agree with the rest of your post, couldn't have said it better myself. Adding on, I'd also like to draw attention to her grab reward; uthrow kills only slightly later than Lucas', dthrow has a worse angle but high BKB for abusing rage and platforms, and her quick 3% pummel is among the best for DPS (top 5 I believe? seems on par with Ike) I guess actually tied with Dedede for overall DPS, but in terms of realistic scenarios it's still going to be as good as the other quick 3%s.

 

[meticulousboy]

Most Marth, Ike, and Lucina players I've seen are extremely behind on positioning ledgedrop Counter, given I strictly recall actually telling your boards to abuse it more. I'm not exactly convinced without further detail.

Well, I was able to use Toad on an Ike that recovered with Aether. So is it slightly easier for Peach to use a counter to prevent Ike from coming back?

 

[san.]

I felt Ike vs. Marth was pretty even, only slightly in Ike's favor at most. The patch made things a bit weird. I feel like I can outspace Marth with fair even *better, but everything else is tougher to deal with.

Ike can eruption marth's upB. There's a limited time and area for Marth to snap to the edge, and Ike has 7 frames of hitbox to time it with little punishment.

Ike does have some trouble vs counter, but Marth's counter is pretty weak at the weakest knockback. Ike has recovery options if he conserves his double jump and DI'd the counter correctly. Marth also can't be too obvious with the counter. It should be reactive vs. both the aether and the quick draw. Ike is completely finished if he has no double jump.

There are also timings and positionings of aether where a counter will trigger early or turn the opposite way. It's tough to explain it in words, but you just get an understanding of it through experience.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'm slightly interested in the future of Bowser Jr after this last patch. One of his biggest weaknesses was finally addressed and his u/d smash attacks are no longer these super risky moves so actually using them won't be nearly as much of a problem now. The one thing that wasn't addressed though was Bowser Jr's crap landing options but at least now he can actually compete with the other heavy weights in getting kills in more reliably.

 

[Locke 06]

I felt Ike vs. Marth was pretty even, only slightly in Ike's favor at most. The patch made things a bit weird. I feel like I can outspace Marth with fair even *better, but everything else is tougher to deal with.

Ike can eruption marth's upB. There's a limited time and area for Marth to snap to the edge, and Ike has 7 frames of hitbox to time it with little punishment.

Ike does have some trouble vs counter, but Marth's counter is pretty weak at the weakest knockback. Ike has recovery options if he conserves his double jump and DI'd the counter correctly. Marth also can't be too obvious with the counter. It should be reactive vs. both the aether and the quick draw.

There are also timings and positionings of aether where a counter will trigger early or turn the opposite way. It's tough to explain it in words, but you just get an understanding of it through experience.

How does Ike jump forward without Marth FAiring him in the face on reaction?

 

[epicnights]

Welcome to 's world. Ranking even before her enormous buff dump in the summer but most people are still stuck on "her hitboxes are weird so she sucks."

I feel like this is an important point to note. With work on SSB4 hacking making considerable progress, it is within the realm of possibility that visible hitboxes could be available before EVO. Once that information is available, the meta will begin to grow substantially, especially for characters such as and.

 

[predator_21476]

Most Marth, Ike, and Lucina players I've seen are extremely behind on positioning ledgedrop Counter, given I strictly recall actually telling your boards to abuse it more. I'm not exactly convinced without further detail.

Slower startup on EVERYTHING = better frame data?

You sound very confused.

And people sometimes just don't do things they don't know. I actually do the stuff I say, and confirm it works against real players before coming here and telling you why you should abuse it more.

Sounds like you also play bad Marths who have no idea how to abuse superior mobility. Ike F-tilt is a great move, but it's very whiff punishable if not spaced well and still has noticeable enough startup that makes it not spammable.

Look at kurogane their startup is basically the same on everything. Fsmash and fair Marth has better startup which are the notable ones. Their frame data is pretty much exactly the same. Also maybe the Marth I play is bad but it's not like I spam ftilt spamming a move is never a good strategy. But Marth does not scare me in neutral he's not a threatning character to face.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I felt Ike vs. Marth was pretty even, only slightly in Ike's favor at most. The patch made things a bit weird. I feel like I can outspace Marth with fair even *better, but everything else is tougher to deal with.

Ike can eruption marth's upB. There's a limited time and area for Marth to snap to the edge, and Ike has 7 frames of hitbox to time it with little punishment.

Ike does have some trouble vs counter, but Marth's counter is pretty weak at the weakest knockback. Ike has recovery options if he conserves his double jump and DI'd the counter correctly. Marth also can't be too obvious with the counter. It should be reactive vs. both the aether and the quick draw. Ike is completely finished if he has no double jump.

There are also timings and positionings of aether where a counter will trigger early or turn the opposite way. It's tough to explain it in words, but you just get an understanding of it through experience.

Marth can grab the ledge starting frame 7 with his Up-B, and his recovery mixup window without SideB stalling is definitely significantly greater than 7 frames, and Marth in most cases will almost always have his double jump on top of that when he's in range for the ledge given Ike doesn't exert nearly the same reliable pressure with aerials offstage to force Marth's hand. And while I won't deny it's not risky to fish for it, it's still extremely hard to pull off, meaning it's an option that doesn't really have much weight in the matchup.

I'm pretty damn well aware there's weird ways to space Aether to avoid getting countered typically closer to the beginning of the animation before Ike jumps, but this only works really well if the Marth passively just waits on stage to Counter. It's nearly impossible for Ike to recover low when Marth reacts to options after grabbing the ledge, meaning in most cases Marth fishes for less difficult reads to cover Ike's high recovery, which still can be massively rewarding on Ike who has trouble breaking strings.

Look at kurogane their startup is basically the same on everything. Fsmash and fair Marth has better startup which are the notable ones. Their frame data is pretty much exactly the same. Also maybe the Marth I play is bad but it's not like I spam ftilt spamming a move is never a good strategy. But Marth does not scare me in neutral he's not a threatning character to face.

Marth B-air and F-air especially are faster. This actually sucks a lot for Roy in neutral when one of Marth's best aerial pokes simultaneously outranges Roy and outspeeds him. The extra speed on D-air, U-smash, Counter, Up-B, and F-smash is significant in making reactive punishes as well.

And basically, the point I'm getting at is Ike has to wait for Marth to make a mistake he can punish. Marth might be punishable when he missteps, but he definitely has far more freedom to control when fights happen, and the offstage game is pretty massively in Marth's favor to the point that it trivializes Ike's reward.

 

[C0rvus]

I feel like players worth their salt ought to at least have a feel for their characters hitboxes. It comes from playing them for extended periods of time or just labbing. That said, being able to see them would help people who don't play that character.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I feel like this is an important point to note. With work on SSB4 hacking making considerable progress, it is within the realm of possibility that visible hitboxes could be available before EVO. Once that information is available, the meta will begin to grow substantially, especially for characters such as and.

I don't even think they're that weird, especially after the summer patch. Before then, you'd miss attacks all the time and think "how the hell does this attack work" but that isn't really a problem now. They used to be weird and dysfunctional but now they actually work so there's not too much of an excuse. We're talking about a character that used to regularly whiff grabs and fsmashes against like a 1/4th of the cast. Lack of interest is definitely one of the bigger things holding Wii Fit back though, kind of like Charizard.

 

[san.]

How does Ike jump forward without Marth FAiring him in the face on reaction?

After a counter, there should be a significant enough distance offstage where Marth can't immediately reach. Marth's counter has high base knockback and low growth. Marth most of the time will also be using the counter in the air and takes a short time to land. Stage dependent, Ike can recover above, pressure marth with his own aerials, dodge, or reactionary quick draw back, same as most other characters.

I'm not sure if Marth has very punishing practical landing traps like a kill confirm, other than knocking Ike off again where Ike is in full control of the DI. Ike can gamble for a light punishment using quick draw.

Marth can grab the ledge starting frame 7 with his Up-B, and his recovery mixup window without SideB stalling is definitely significantly greater than 7 frames, and Marth in most cases will almost always have his double jump on top of that when he's in range for the ledge given Ike doesn't exert nearly the same reliable pressure with aerials offstage to force Marth's hand. And while I won't deny it's not risky to fish for it, it's still extremely hard to pull off, meaning it's an option that doesn't really have much weight in the matchup.

Marth won't always have his double jump. 1 hit of Ike at even center stage will likely get Marth close to offstage even at mid %. You need to double jump to get out of many of Ike's traps.

Ike exerts a good amount of pressure offstage. 1 fair can kill most after 50-60%, and Ike can get his hitbox to reach offstage fairly quickly. The existence of fair is great for preventing opponents from recovering high and drift back.

Marth only has so much air speed, horizontal recovery on the upB, and sweetspot locations. It may not be terribly easy, but it's possible and feasible. Ike will just eat some damage from the upB most of the time if he fails. Marth wants to hit Ike so it interrupts him, since eruption can also cover ledge recovery options.

I'm pretty damn well aware there's weird ways to space Aether to avoid getting countered typically closer to the beginning of the animation before Ike jumps, but this only works really well if the Marth passively just waits on stage to Counter. It's nearly impossible for Ike to recover low when Marth reacts to options after grabbing the ledge, meaning in most cases Marth fishes for less difficult reads to cover Ike's high recovery.

Below stage, too. If marth is grabbing the edge, that's like 21 frames of Marth not being able to do anything, + the 5 for the counter. The optimal place to counter aether is above the spinning sword. I would consider ledge drop into counter a mixup, especially since there are quite a few locations you can initiate aether to make it miss, while the former is 100%.

 

[Shaya]

Ftilt doesn't have a sourspot, all three hitboxes have the same numbers and there isn't a late hit on it. It can combo into utilt at low % and uair at mid% on fastfallers (tight link) if they DI in though, which I'm guessing is what you're referring to.

I strongly agree with the rest of your post, couldn't have said it better myself. Adding on, I'd also like to draw attention to her grab reward; uthrow kills only slightly later than Lucas', dthrow has a worse angle but high BKB for abusing rage and platforms, and her quick 3% pummel is among the best for DPS (top 5 I believe? seems on par with Ike).

If they're all the same then this move blows my mind.
I've hit people at 150% and have it send no where, another time at around the same percent and it kills off the top.
Never seen a move have such drastically different interactions through DI in smash4 but I don't deny it. How are the hitboxes attached? Different bones I'm guessing at the least (which can alter angles considerably based on hit position).

 

[Fatmanonice]

Lucario is a lot different then his Brawl version.
They ruined his moveset but doubled the power of aura.
Such good game design

Assuming this is related to my post, what I meant is that Peach and Lucario are still seen the same way as they were in Brawl: characters believed to have a ton of promise and all these characters need is respective Messiah to show everyone their potential. I don't think that's really changed. I'd argue that there's less roadblocks now (a certain disgruntled blueberry comes to mind) but I still feel like they're regularly expected to do more than they can. Because of this, I feel like tier lists place them (along with Roy) in respectable spots because the competitive community is waiting with baited breath for some champion to emerge and clean house with them.

 

[Lavani]

If they're all the same then this move blows my mind.
I've hit people at 150% and have it send no where, another time at around the same percent and it kills off the top.
Never seen a move have such drastically different interactions through DI in smash4 but I don't deny it. How are the hitboxes attached? Different bones I'm guessing at the least (which can alter angles considerably based on hit position).

Two hitboxes are attached to the same bone, the third (closest hitbox) isn't attached to anything.

Here's the data, if you're curious:

Asynchronous_Timer(Frames=8)
Special_Hitbox(Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x19, Unknown=10.5, Unknown=0x46, Unknown=0x64, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1E, Unknown=5, Unknown=0, Unknown=8, Unknown=0, Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0, Unknown=1, Unknown=1, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0xA, Unknown=0x3F, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0xF, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0)
Special_Hitbox(Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x19, Unknown=10.5, Unknown=0x46, Unknown=0x64, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1E, Unknown=4, Unknown=0, Unknown=4, Unknown=0, Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0, Unknown=1, Unknown=1, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0xA, Unknown=0x3F, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0xF, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0)
Extended_Special_Hitbox(Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=10.5, Unknown=0x46, Unknown=0x64, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1E, Unknown=4, Unknown=0, Unknown=8, Unknown=9, Unknown=0x2, Unknown=0, Unknown=1, Unknown=1, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0xA, Unknown=0x3F, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0xF, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x1, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x3, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0x0, Unknown=0, Unknown=8, Unknown=6)
Synchronous_Timer(Frames=3)
Remove_All_Hitboxes()
Frame_Speed_Multiplier(Speed=0.87)
Script_End()

 

[Locke 06]

stuff about offstage

I meant jumping forward to space FAirs vs Marth on stage. Or to do anything aerially. Midrange sounds like Marth's kingdom in the matchup, although I don't know how their dtilts interact.

 

[san.]

I meant jumping forward to space FAirs vs Marth on stage. Or to do anything aerially. Midrange sounds like Marth's kingdom in the matchup, although I don't know how their dtilts interact.

Oh, that's easy. Marth doesn't want to empty short hop too much. Ike has more air speed and Marth has to respect fair. Marth outranges Ike on the ground and has a fast walk. Marth can also punish Ike's whiffed aerials and attacks on the ground, while he can't so easily in the air.

 

[Locke 06]

Oh, that's easy. Marth doesn't want to empty short hop too much. Ike has more air speed and Marth has to respect fair. Marth outranges Ike on the ground and has a fast walk. Marth can also punish Ike's whiffed aerials and attacks on the ground, while he can't so easily in the air.

Not that I've played the matchup extensively, but as Marth I feel like I can challenge Ike's FAir before it comes out. The range where rising FAir is threatening on a grounded opponent feels like dtilt range. If you jump forward outside of that range, that's my cue to rising FAir you, since you either have to use your rising FAir (and whiff it if I don't jump) or delay it. Otherwise I'll just stay grounded and keep pressing my grounded range.

The Ike/Luci main I play with CP's Ike's with Luci (outside of disliking the ditto) for this reason.

This footsies war feels like one that Marcina should win.

Edit: if it's not clear, Marcina stays grounded the entire time. And because I'm me, I'd probably try to crouch under Ike's rising FAir. And, going into theoryland, SH dB1 it on whiff to lead into my offense.

 

[san.]

Not that I've played the matchup extensively, but as Marth I feel like I can challenge Ike's FAir before it comes out. The range where rising FAir is threatening on a grounded opponent feels like dtilt range. If you jump forward outside of that range, that's my cue to rising FAir you, since you either have to use your rising FAir (and whiff it if I don't jump) or delay it. Otherwise I'll just stay grounded and keep pressing my grounded range.

The Ike/Luci main I play with CP's Ike's with Luci (outside of disliking the ditto) for this reason.

This footsies war feels like one that Marcina should win.

If Ike jumps forward, his back will be towards Marth, or Ike is spacing for max spaced fair. Once Marth dashes, Ike's the one that can fair. The MU is definitely not a fair/aerial war, Ike wins this. Marth wants to do other things.

This is also from the latest patch. Ike could not space fair like this before. If that's where you are deriving this from, the latest patch made things different in terms of how neutral goes.

 

[Y2Kay]

About Shadow Sneak Hit Stun Cancel:

It works really well against scrub life and mains. All these fresh bloods on the block whose whole gameplan revolves around trying to fish for the elevator combo really get hosed by it. But, as the competition gets smarter and more experienced, the less the advantage effects the match up. MK players like Tyrant can adapt, since his gameplay outside the ladder combo is still really solid. Regardless, the glitch really make these matchups a lot more manageable than a majority of the cast. Not worrying about dying at 30% is nice. Greninja's punish and neutral game is strong enough to get the advantage on MK, but ZSS's brute strength makes it more or less even. But that isn't bad considering this duo bodies a large majority of the cast.

may be an entirely different story. Unlike the others, we are put in a prime position to punish her after using SSHC. Not only that, we can dash grab her right under neath the bullet climax, and camp her really hard with water shurikens, not to mention not giving a care in the world about her crazy kill combos. I don't want to put a label on it, but I haven't loss to any bayonettas yet. All you have to do is not get greedy, and you can win.

The ratios go something around this:
55:45
50:50
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[G. Stache]

I love when Luigi gets brought into conversation. I get to actually talk about something I know

Luigi is quite honestly, bad. Not only does he loses to all 3 of the S tiers (Rosa being by far his worst) he also loses to villager, mega man, greninja, and others. His advantage that he REALLY had before he got butchered was his positive MU's over otherwise known as common tournament threats hence why everyone rated him in top 10 even top 5 although Luigi was counter-pickable. He had guaranteed kills off of grabs which very few characters have and thus people ignored his bad MU's with Sheik, Rosa, Mega Man, Villager and other soft counters and claimed he was in the realm of top 5. Of course we were still in 1.08 where a decent amount of characters did poorly against top/high tiers. Current has a lot of "suspect" MU's.

Rosa is his worst? Wasn't aware that his worst MU, by far, was around the 6-4 to 65-35 range. When Luigi plays most optimally, I have reason to believe that ZSS is his worst (all the notable Luigi players don't seem to have as much trouble with Sheik or Rosa as they do with ZSS). But honestly, I've explained this before: Luigi has very reliable ways to dispatch of Luma (the biggest threat in this MU) and once he does, the MU is only around the 6-4 range. Not awful at all (though still definitely an uphill battle). Also should be noted that Boss has 2-0ed a Rosa main called Frozen. So either Frozen is a horrible Rosa player who should ponder switching characters, or we all overrate the whole 'Luigi can't approach lololol'. Only one example, I know. But Boss' play with Luigi managed to completely overwhelm Frozen. So Luigi still has tools to compete with these 'horrible MU's. Villager isn't as huge of a disadvantage as you'd like to think, though I don't see much Luigi-Villager MU that happens on the same skill level (Ranai is above ConCon's level while MVG, or whoever that Villager main is, seems below ConCon's level). ConCon and LuigiPlayer have notable wins over impressive sheiks, so I feel as if everyone overrates how bad that MU is. Mega man, I won't conceal, is atrocious for us and so is Pacman. The two men **** on Luigi hard and are probably the two hardest MU's for him.

What do you mean 'suspect MU's'? For the record, Luigi has a lot of 'holy balls, this battle is ****ing annoying' MU's such as the Links, Samus, Falco, Zelda, etc. but he beats or goes even with almost everyone in that group (controversial statement: I think Luigi beats Samus. Luigi's just don't put in the time to learn the MU extensively. The only scary thing Samus has is the Charge Shot, which Luigi admittedly has no answers to.). Toon Link is the only one in that group (could certainly see an argument for Link winning, obviously) who seems to actually win against Luigi.

For the record: Luigi still beats (Dr.) Mario, Falcon, Fox, Pika, Diddy, and probably Bayonetta. And still goes even with Sonic, Ness, Yoshi and possibly Peach. Y'know, most of the common tournament characters and then some. Still probably the best pocket character in the game. For this reason, I still find him good. Great, even, to a certain extent.

Also, just realized how late this reply was...and how slapdash it seems, lol. If anyone feels like I wasn't clear or was incorrect about something, then feel free to question me.

 

[David Viran]

may be an entirely different story. Unlike the others, we are put in a prime position to punish her after using SSHC. Not only that, we can dash grab her right under neath the bullet climax, and camp her really hard with water shurikens, not to mention not giving a care in the world about her crazy kill combos. I don't want to put a label on it, but I haven't loss to any bayonettas yet. All you have to do is not get greedy, and you can win/

I was watching ninja link vs venia and not one time did using sshh put him in the advantage. At best it reset to neutral and a a lot of the time ninjalink could have just punished him for it if he hadn't over extended. As for shrunkens, I can't see it being to abusive with the threat of a frame 7 dive kick.

 

[warionumbah2]

Leo got his metaknights revenge and beat serge 3-1.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ftilt doesn't have a sourspot, all three hitboxes have the same numbers and there isn't a late hit on it. It can combo into utilt at low % and uair at mid% on fastfallers (tight link) if they DI in though, which I'm guessing is what you're referring to.

I strongly agree with the rest of your post, couldn't have said it better myself. Adding on, I'd also like to draw attention to her grab reward; uthrow kills only slightly later than Lucas', dthrow has a worse angle but high BKB for abusing rage and platforms, and her quick 3% pummel is among the best for DPS (top 5 I believe? seems on par with Ike) I guess actually tied with Dedede for overall DPS, but in terms of realistic scenarios it's still going to be as good as the other quick 3%s.

Oh, for real? I guess I must have been overestimating Lucas's up throw KO %.

 

[Rikkhan]

G. Stache not sure about falcon MU luigi is dead meat offstage, fatality completely bodied Boss.