Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Appledees]

Doesn't help that if the dash grab doesn't work she can probably punish you with WT and then you're in the disadvantage then you could possibly lose a stock lol

 

[Radical Larry]

Well, if the characters just can't grab, they could try shield pressure like hell has broken loose.
Then there's Witch Time...

You know, I can kind of believe the characters were underbaked now and rushed out of the oven.
Dem glitches remind me of Melee. And we know the Invisible Ceiling glitch from that game. Let's somewhat apply that to Corrin.
Then we have the Diddy no-grab glitch. Let's apply that to Bayonetta (or as ZeRo calls her, Bayounetta).

 

[Fatmanonice]

It just adds nuances to matchups to consider.

That's how the Melee community operated with new discoveries to the game engine and if they could do it for 15 years I'm pretty sure Sm4sh can too for something that's comparatively minor. This'll probably get fixed if people draw enough attention to it, but if not, I'd say it should be accepted.

That's not a nuance because it works against the entire cast. That's a definite advantage. Think about all the characters who grabs are a center part of their gameplay. Can you imagine Mario without grabs? Diddy? Ike? Ness? Palutena? You get my point.

 

[Nu~]

I agree with y'all that this bayo glitch is unnaccptable buuuuuut...

If we're talking about grabs that can't beat shield...I want this fixed first

 

[Das Koopa]

Melee cannot be patched. All Melee players could do is say "okly-dokly" and figureit out from there.

And there's nothing wrong with this. If you can't fix it, adapt.

Not to mention that Wobbling is a defined mechanic by virute of the Melee engine facets. ICs are just the only character that can perform it solo.

The point made is that Wobbling is a glitch that's pretty broken when you get right down to it (Grab > kill) but people adapted to it and learn the matchup once the matchup became based around grabbing an opponent consistently.

Grab is meant to beat shield. If there's something in Sm4sh that ignores that concept, then it should be patched, because it can be patched, "nuances" be damned.

I agree it should be patched and I think it probably will be. But calls to ban characters to a mechanic that could be adapted to in a worst case scenario? That's silly. Like I said- if one community can deal with it for over a decade and come out with a pretty competitive game, I'm pretty sure people playing Sm4sh can deal with Bayonetta having a method of circumventing grabs.

It's worse if it's random, but that's why we should study it. If it applies when a specific few characters are too close to Bayonetta, you adapt, and learn the matchup from there.

Yes, grabbing has a set standard, which is why it should be kept consistent and be patched, but if it isn't, you learn and adapt to it from there instead of hitting the panic button.

 

[Mr. Johan]

And there's nothing wrong with this. If you can't fix it, adapt.

Adapt with gritted teeth and bloody knuckles.

This game can still be patched, no need to bare our teeth or prep our knuckles yet.

The point made is that Wobbling is a glitch that's pretty broken when you get right down to it (Grab > kill) but people adapted to it and learn the matchup once the matchup became based around grabbing an opponent consistently.

It's not a glitch in the literal sense. Attacking someone in a grabbed animation and resetting the grab duration is universal between all characters. But ICs can do it on its own because Nana is there.

A very overcentralizing mechanic? Yes. A glitchy mechanic? No.

Yes, grabbing has a set standard, which is why it should be kept consistent and be patched, but if it isn't, you learn and adapt to it from there instead of hitting the panic button.

But as long as the game can continue to be patched, then the petitioning for a patch to correct it should be made regardless. It keeps the player base interacting with the devs, and helps out the competitive scene as a whole.

 

[Das Koopa]

I agree we should petition for it to be patched

I think it's pretty clear I'm discussing this from the angle of "what if it's never patched". If that isn't clear, I'm sorry for being unclear.

 

[Funen1]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're already close enough for this blind spot to occur, shouldn't you be using a regular grab instead of a dash grab anyway? Unless these characters' regular grabs also have this blind spot or something...

Don't get me wrong, I also think this deserves to be fixed if only for consistency's sake, but given what I know about it, it doesn't seem game-breaking for the characters at hand, since it's likely something can be done about it on our end.

 

[Nemesis561]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're already close enough for this blind spot to occur, shouldn't you be using a regular grab instead of a dash grab anyway? Unless these characters' regular grabs also have this blind spot or something...

Don't get me wrong, I also think this deserves to be fixed if only for consistency's sake, but given what I know about it, it doesn't seem game-breaking for the characters at hand, since it's likely something can be done about it on our end.

Huh? You don't see the problem with someone running in on Bayo's shield, then having to stop their momentum in order to get the standing grab as opposed to a dash grab?

 

[Halifax?]

Is the dash grab impossible or does it just require a different spacing?

We ban for spacing now?

 

[Luig]

I have a theory about the bayonetta grab glitch.
With the way the positions her body, some certain grabs might miss her on the z axis.
Just my thoughts.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I agree with y'all that this bayo glitch is unnaccptable buuuuuut...

If we're talking about grabs that can't beat shield...I want this fixed first

Pretty sure this is mostly just Pacman's bad grab unless I am mistaken on this.

 

[Funen1]

Huh? You don't see the problem with someone running in on Bayo's shield, then having to stop their momentum in order to get the standing grab as opposed to a dash grab?

If you're far away enough where only a dash grab would land, then you should also be far away enough that the blind spot doesn't apply, correct? No stopping required, just different spacing. Granted, I can't really test all this in-depth until tonight, so any more info on this would be very helpful. Knowing exactly how big the blind spots are should give people a clearer idea of what spacing is needed in case this isn't patched.

 

[SaltyKracka]

No, people are talking about bans because this is exactly the sort of thing (see: MK's infinite cape) people should not have to deal with to play the game.

 

[Gunla]

This thing is literally just bad spacing combined with hitboxes. Pure Royzone. Bayo's hitbox is just thin. Furthermore, at that kind of distance, a standard grab might be a more usable and the better option, or just properly spacing your dash grab with one of these characters. Not to downplay that it's weird and kind of.. off.

It's like how when you get right up to someone and use Greninja's Fsmash, there's a tiny dead zone and some characters just don't get hit. It's like how getting too close with Falcon's dash grab has him just phase through characters on occasion.

I personally don't expect anymore patches and praying for bugfix issues when the chance of a patch isn't even certain is a little too much wishful thinking. This isn't some issue like the Diddy Glitch (where a situational yet abusable tactic could make it so Diddy was completely immune to grabs), it's that one character's hitbox and other character's grabboxes just don't mesh when they're exactly next to each other. Yes, it's wonky and out there, but right now, I'm going to get used to it. Royzoning and the like isn't a good thing, but it just exists.

I don't see why Bayo should be banned for something like this, but I feel like people are looking for opportunities to find reasons why Bayonetta should be banned. The character has only been out for a week and I feel like people are treating it like it's the end of competitive Smash 4 as we know it if she doesn't get a nerf/ban.

Pretty sure this is mostly just Pacman's bad grab unless I am mistaken on this.

His grab is unfortunately bad.

 

[TTTTTsd]

This thing is literally just bad spacing combined with hitboxes. Pure Royzone. Bayo's hitbox is just thin. Furthermore, at that kind of distance, a standard grab might be a more usable and the better option, or just properly spacing your dash grab with one of these characters.

It's like how when you get right up to someone and use Greninja's Fsmash, there's a tiny dead zone and some characters just don't get hit. It's like how getting too close with Falcon's dash grab has him just phase through characters on occasion.

I personally don't expect anymore patches and praying for bugfix issues when the chance of a patch isn't even certain is a little too much wishful thinking. This isn't some issue like the Diddy Glitch (where a situational yet abusable tactic could make it so Diddy was completely immune to grabs), it's that one character's hitbox and other character's grabboxes just don't mesh when they're exactly next to each other.

I don't see why Bayo should be banned for something like this, but I feel like people are looking for opportunities to find reasons why Bayonetta should be banned.


His grab is unfortunately bad.

This interaction happens to Sheik, apparently Diddy (will test more), Ness, Pika, I've seen it happen to Falco during the cooldown of one of her Smashes....

It's pretty absurd and should prolly be looked into because there's only gonna be more examples showing up.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't think this is the last patch honestly, but I would believe it if Sakurai went on vacation and we sat on this for a bit unless there are after a week follow ups like with the Diddy glitch.

 

[deepseadiva]

No, people are talking about bans because this is exactly the sort of thing (see: MK's infinite cape) people should not have to deal with to play the game.

Very bad comparison.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Very bad comparison.

Seconding this post.

I think the Bayo thing is stupid and should be examined but I don't thin kit's uh....quite like that.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Been lurking for a while but really? People are actually calling for bans because of one video of a guy with bad spacing missing a grab?

A buddy who tested this said all characters who are "unable" to grab her from behind only fail to do so when they are pushing her hurtbox with theirs when the grab is active. In other words, player error. If it's spaced correctly it will always work, all standing grabs will always work.

Many grabs/moves are more difficult to land on specific characters due to their hurtboxes. Understanding how to adjust to this is called matchup knowledge. Calling for a ban over something like this is insane.

 

[Solfiner]

Guys, just tweet the glitches to Bill Trinen or something if you want it fixed, he's generally pretty active on twitter. I highly doubt they would just say "lol no" because Sakurai said that the development is over.

 

[Locke 06]

Guys, just tweet the glitches to Bill Trinen or something if you want it fixed, he's generally pretty active on twitter. I highly doubt they would just say "lol no" because Sakurai said that the development is over.

No.

Do not do that.

Trinen is cool and shouldn't have to deal with people complaining to him about a game he has no part in developing.

Think before you do things, please.

Edit: also, realize this isn't a glitch. This is how things interact with each other. It makes sense, in terms of the game engine. Is it stupid? Undoubtedly yes. Is it Diddy's grab glitch/Kamui's grab off the ledge glitch? No.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Eh reading over this link that got posted earlier.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ca4WkZzWwAAuw36.png:large

Is this more or less true?

 

[Nu~]

Pretty sure this is mostly just Pacman's bad grab unless I am mistaken on this.

Oh I'm aware, I just think it's crazy that his grab is still this dysfunctional after all these patches.

 

[Fatmanonice]

People's issue is that this is something that strongly benefits one of the best, if not the best, character in the game. If this was Samus or Jigglypuff, nobody would care. Obviously, it's still too early to call things like this but if a major player drops a set or even a tournament because of this, you can bet they'll be a huge uproar about it afterwards.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

People's issue is that this is something that strongly benefits one of the best, if not the best, character in the game. If this was Samus or Jigglypuff, nobody would care. Obviously, it's still too early to call things like this but if a major player drops a set or even a tournament because of this, you can bet they'll be a huge uproar about it afterwards.

We don't ****ing know if she's the best character in the game yet. She's been out for less than a week.

Smooth Criminal

 

[C0rvus]

We don't ****ing know if she's the best character in the game yet. She's been out for less than a week.

Smooth Criminal

This 1000x. We don't even know how consistent her reward is at high level yet, let alone her matchup spread. She clearly isn't as dominant as Sheik because her neutral is noticeably worse, and so is her ability to throw out low-commitment moves at a high rate. She may very well be the new scrub stomper, or a top tier, but let's wait and see, shall we?

 

[Fatmanonice]

We don't ****ing know if she's the best character in the game yet. She's been out for less than a week.

Smooth Criminal

Like I said, probably one of the best. People were calling ZSS, Mario, Ryu, and Cloud good early too and, lo and behold, it happened because enough was known about the character's strengths and weaknesses to give a good projection of how they'd match up in the future. Also, what's up with the Emblem Lord impression as of late?

 

[Emblem Lord]

So now that I know it effects multiple chars...that kinda changes things.

Can't go banning 5 or so chars over this imo.

Make no mistake. I think this **** sucks. Especially a char that I genuinely have a connection too and is a total ****ing badass.

Buuuuut I feel right now it's best to just let it rock and I'm sure Nintendo will notice. It's pretty obvious they read message boards and listen to the community to some degree.

Which is good for me...cuz it sucks not advancing metagames and figuring **** out.

I does that.

 

[IsmaR]

Like I said, probably one of the best. People were calling ZSS, Mario, Ryu, and Cloud good early too and, lo and behold, it happened because enough was known about the character's strengths and weaknesses to give a good projection of how they'd match up in the future.

You weren't here for "early on" if you think people were singing nothing but praise for any of these characters.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Doubts were few and far between for the characters I listed. It's not like Duck Hunt who opinions have radically shifted for since the game came out. Buffs and nerfs taken out of consideration, have any of the characters I listed been heavily criticized and deemed less than high tier in the course of this game? How was what I said the least bit false?

 

[Halifax?]

Someone on Reddit confirmed it's a Z-axis issue

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/455k52/bayonetta_grab_issues_are_due_to_zaxis/

 

[Planty]

Doubts were few and far between for the characters I listed. It's not like Duck Hunt who opinions have radically shifted for since the game came out. Buffs and nerfs taken out of consideration, have any of the characters I listed been heavily criticized and deemed less than high tier in the course of this game? How was what I said the least bit false?

I remember that we were calling Cloud kinda bad for a few days. Maybe a week. I wasn't on this thread for the release of Ryu or anything before that so I don't know about the others.

 

[C0rvus]

The grab issue is due to the Z-axis? There you go. So if your character is among the afflicted, just counterpick to Duck Hunt or Omega Flat Zone, where everyone is flat. Iirc these stages also improve some moves' hitboxes, (like DK's fair I believe) because the characters are physically flattened out.

 

[HoSmash4]

If you get upset about dying from witch twist stuff... you can SDI you know.

Can someone explain exactly how to sdi out of the witch twist? People just saying 'sdi' without saying what direction, how to recognise which side witch twist is started from, how to react fast enough to the frame 4 move to do the SDI, how to quarter circle sdi

AFAIK no one I've seen is sdi'ing the witch twist in any streams even in rotations between Nairo and Mr R and Anti.

 

[Megamang]

Some people doubted cloud, mario, shiek... etc etc, citing weaknesses. Because this is a large community, and people have differing opinions.

So lets stop posting things such as 'this community thinks' 'the problem with this community is noone/everyone does/thinks X, Y, Z'

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Can someone explain exactly how to sdi out of the witch twist? People just saying 'sdi' without saying what direction, how to recognise which side witch twist is started from, how to react fast enough to the frame 4 move to do the SDI, how to quarter circle sdi

AFAIK no one I've seen is sdi'ing the witch twist in any streams even in rotations between Nairo and Mr R and Anti.

←←←←←←←←

Do this when you SDI.

 

[Big-Cat]

I find it really funny how all the third party dlc characters are amazing. I swear playing non-Nintendo characters is the one of the best ways to go in Smash 4 with maybe the exception of Megaman and Pacman. Don't forget how Snake was dope in Brawl too.

@Baby_Sneak If your computer isn't complete butt, Xrd should run fine. The PC version seems solid as far as I know.

This also happened in SFxTK where most people agree the Tekken characters, with the exception of Chun-Li who was at top, were better than the majority of the SF cast.

Also, with all the whining about Bayonetta, I'm convinced this was Sakurai's message with her: "Git Gud".

 

[Das Koopa]

To better clarify my "Worst case scenario" point

Wobbling and Bayonetta's grab hurtbox aren't the same, and even if Wobbling isn't a glitch (I'm pretty certain the desynch stuff is? that's not the point anyway) the point was that both are unintended parts of the game engine that change the dynamic of one character in a way that has no real precedent. If it's never patched out, the solution is adaptation. Which just involves... proper spacing.

It's not gamebreaking, basically. It changes the dynamic of certain matchups in a way the developers intended, but I'd like to think this game has enough depth that we can adapt to that without needing to ban characters, short-term or long-term.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wobbling is not a glitch but an exploit of how grab releases works in Melee.

Bayonetta's situation is most likely unintentional but no where near as game influencing as it was for Ice Climbers.