Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[FeelMeUp]

nah, not just you. Feels the same for Fox as well imo. Pick any two non smash attack moves and they probably link.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Him too, actually that seems to be the case with a lot of top/high tiers now that I think about it. Mario, sheik, fox, mewtwo, cloud, zss, bayo, Pikachu, diddy, MK, Corrin, Luigi, even Marth. Combos/strings in general are slowly becoming more free flow and natural looking

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Interested to hear reasonings as to why Cloud falls off towards the top level.

One of the defining traits of top level play is strong usage of shield, which is something Cloud massively struggles against by design. Other notable characters this is often said about are Toon Link and Fox but Cloud is actually worse off than them. Toon Link has a very powerful killing throw and can work against shields with his ability to throw out multiple, safe hitboxes at once. Fox is pretty good at getting grabs even if his throws aren't very rewarding and he can pressure shields by throwing out a lot of hitboxes in rapid succession, often forcing a reaction from the opponent that can create an opening to capitalize on.

Cloud's entire aerial moveset consists of moves that, while safe to hit shields with, only deal single strikes and the only ground moves that he can use to follow it up to create some sort of pressure are Jab and Cross Slash. Neither move allows for followups, neither move opens up any opportunity for Cloud to deal great damage, get an easy kill or at least keep the pressure up. He also has a very unspectacular grab with throws that don't give him much to work with. Smart usage of shield is definitely a huge roadblock for Cloud and it's an option that's available to pretty much everybody because every character except Jigglypuff has a good shield in this game.

I think it was falln who said that in order to beat Cloud you just have to not jump. That's not even that much of an exaggeration and one of the reasons why Sheik players were the first to consistently beat Cloud is probably because she's the best at just sticking to the ground and never commiting to anything. It's no coincidence that Rosalina players were the next in line to expose the same weakness, as a ground-based game with ample usage of sheild is her natural habitate.

Honestly, once people learn to gimp him may actually drop out of top 10 as crazy as that may sound.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

~ Gheb ~ "all you have to do to beat cloud is not jump."

I may have forgotten this, but was there a discussion about little Mac vs cloud before?

 

[Yoshister]

We talked about Ryo's almost beating Abadango's (It was down to last game, last stock, and last hit) right?

 

[LancerStaff]

And people said I was crazy for saying Cloud was overrated... Thank god that's over.

 

[Murlough]

We talked about Ryo's almost beating Abadango's (It was down to last game, last stock, and last hit) right?

Aba's Rosalina wasn't that impressive last I checked. Might have to see the match myself, though.

I feel like Roy is underrated but that could just be bias and/or lack of research. He definately is no better than Mid tier.

 

[C0rvus]

Keep in mind this is the same Roy that was taking games off of Dabuz in friendlies on the MVG stream a while back. Yes, it was friendlies but still. Whether it means Roy isn't bad at that MU or that Ryo is familiar with it stands to reason.

 

[Rizen]

IMO Cloud's tools are simply too good for him to drop below top 10 at worst (inB4 he wins a major and everyone gives him the treatment Bayo got after Pink Fresh won). Cloud may not have instantly dangerous options vs shields but he does have a good dash grab, limit charging, with Limit the best air mobility and a great Uair, Cross slash that eats ledge vulnerability, and throws that can get the opponent in the air.

He probably won't be 1st or 2nd best since Sheik and Diddy have safer, better consistency. 3rd-10th is hard to pin down specific positions but Cloud's in there. Das Koopa's results have him at 3rd or 2nd in the top 8.

http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

 

[DungeonMaster]

Cloud is well balanced, I really have no problem with the character, one of my favourite prey online.
The more I play, and the more tournament players I play, the more I appreciate this game's balance. A few outliers like luma but really even there the meta is healthier than ever.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Cloud is pretty balanced the only thing I would change his limit getting charged when taking damage for as strong as Limit Break is its a touch much, Cloud has no trouble dealing damage and Platform camping to charge his limit.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

So do you face a stigma of looking like a scrub if you say Cloud is a top tier character now?

Either I'm just garbage or I'm viewing through the lens of someone who plays a bunch of ****ty ass characters (Roy, Olimar, Samus, Dedede).

Cloud is just as fantastic as he always was, don't be afraid to voice that guys.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't think Cloud will ever dip below Top 10. That would happen if more characters in this game had real strong edgeguarding (a lot of them don't) and if he saw this sudden dip in results, but he really hasn't. He's gone down from #1 in results to like, #3.

I honestly think he has the potential to move up if people decided to REALLY, REALLY lame it out. Camp Cloud is literally the best Cloud and there's only one I can think of in recent memory (I haven't watched Komorikiri's Cloud in a while but I believe he camps pretty solid with him.) Some may say let him get Limit and then what will he do? He becomes a character with the best overall net mobility in the game so letting him get that is bad (everything becomes a crossup and he can threaten shield with any aerial > Limit Side-B or just crossups in general)

That being said, Top 3 in the game for Cloud at this point in time is a no go statement methinks. I would say 5th-7th is where he is and will probably stay if things keep going this way, I can imagine he'll crawl back into placings again. Or maybe not, who knows?

 

[Loota]

I think this game likely has a few of unwinnable matchups, it's just a matter of optimizing and finetuning specific options as the metagame progresses. Personally I don't see a realistic way for Wario to beat Cloud or for Lucario to beat Mewtwo for instance. It's basically just a matter of figuring out which aerial Wario can do nothing about in a specific scenario and executing it right. To be fair though I'm sure those matchups are quite rare in smash 4.

You are right about Mewtwo vs. Lucario (I wish that was rare here ) where Mewtwo quite literally shuts down all of Lucario's strengths and is very likely his worst matchup. Yes, Mewtwo will die ridiculously early to an aura bair blah blah but so does everyone else with little difference. Aside from that, I can't imagine anything notable going on for Lucario in the MU:

• The combination of a similar projectile and a very usable reflector is something no one else possesses. That heavily limits the usability of Aura Sphere in neutral game, getting KO's and makes fully charged ones just as dangerous to Lucario as to Mewtwo.
  
• Fair and dtilt (+ Shadow Ball / Reflect) wall out Lucario incredibly well. Sure, Lucario can beat his fair with nair but it's a trade he cannot afford and he isn't fast enough both movement and frame data wise to deal with dtilt or catch retreating fairs.
  
• Mewtwo has pretty effortless ways to get KO's on Lucario before he gets to high aura. Usmash is very good at catching shorthop anything, fair cannot be challenged at all, Shadow Ball is stronk and then there's his ridiculous runspeed and uthrow from which Lucario cannot escape with such a big difference in runspeed and the threat of other kill options from a run.
  
• Lucario's very potent uthrow combo and trap game doesn't work on Mewtwo very well at all since his airdodge allows him to escape the usually frame tight followups without putting himself at much risk since he doesn't get momentum locked by it.
• Lucario doesn't have the speed to punish most of Mewtwo's moveset when spaced correctly and when he does it's usually either dash attack which isn't really that scary in this matchup. Mewtwo is able to reset to neutral pretty easily and continue with his shenanigans.
  
• Mewtwo can edgeguard Lucario deep and threaten his otherwise good and pretty safe recovery.

I'm pretty optimistic about Lucario's other top tier matchups (aside from Cloud being a probable -2) but Mewtwo is the ultimate counterpick against him. It's at least an easy -2 but -3 probably describes it better when the Mewtwo knows the MU well. The thought of getting an aura bair or FP grab are the only things keeping me sane and I'll be sure as hell to fish for them (god heavens SH airdodge -> frame 1 landing FP grab is a thing).

 

[Frihetsanka]

People seem quick to dismiss Cloud as "not top 3", despite his overall results are noticeably better than the one with 4th best results (Sonic). This data will be updated soon, but:

Top 16 Weighted:

Diddy Kong: 360
Sheik: 351
Cloud: 313.5
Sonic: 256
Fox: 232

Top 8 Weighted:

Sheik: 208
Diddy Kong: 192.5
Cloud: 175.5
Sonic: 133
Rosalina & Luma: 123.5

Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/#post-21234524

Cloud's MU chart is really good too.

What if we only count "upper" tournaments? Then top 16 Weighted looks like this:

Sheik: 238.5
Diddy Kong: 207
Cloud: 157.5
Zero Suit Samus: 139.5
Fox: 139.5

Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/4br-...ive-impressions.429826/page-581#post-21371264

If Cloud isn't top 3, who is? Fox? Zero Suit Samus? Sonic? Fox's matchup chart seems significantly worse than Cloud's to me, and his results are worse too. Sonic falls off when we only count upper tournaments, and his results are worse in others as well. Rosalina & Luma falls off as well and she has some pretty bad matchups.

 

[TDK]

If Cloud isn't top 3, who is?

For me, top 3 is and then either or

 

[blackghost]

people need to stop being hung up on cloud. what happens on for glory and mid tier tournaments isn't evidence that a character is dominant. no solo cloud main has done well recently. his "counterpick" play from zero looked weak. clouds best playerselling m2k and tweak aren't getting as far as they should if cloud is really that good.

 

[my_T]

If mario is top 5/3 then why don't more people use him at top level? Who else is there aside from Ally? Where are all of marios results coming from? I ask because i don't see him as being better than rosa, fox, mewtwo, or sonic.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

People seem quick to dismiss Cloud as "not top 3", despite his overall results are noticeably better than the one with 4th best results (Sonic). This data will be updated soon, but:
If Cloud isn't top 3, who is? Fox? Zero Suit Samus? Sonic?

Honestly I think top 3 is Sheik, Diddy, and Mewtwo. 4/5 constantly switches between Rosa and Cloud, 6/7/8 is in the same situation with Mario, Fox, and Sonic.

 

[Rhinomaster22]

people need to stop being hung up on cloud. what happens on for glory and mid tier tournaments isn't evidence that a character is dominant. no solo cloud main has done well recently. his "counterpick" play from zero looked weak. clouds best playerselling m2k and tweak aren't getting as far as they should if cloud is really that good.

We'll in the U.S. he has began falling off with his highest placements being around 5th-15th and only winning huge regionals thanks to Mew2King and some credit at CEO 2016 from Anti. In Japan however he does fairly well, with players like Komorikir and Maushi doing very well off compared to the U.S. Clouds.

 

[Yikarur]

It's pretty stupid how people now assume that Cloud is below Top5 just because he doesn't have any represention. Of course he is missing in any TopX if there are no Top Cloud players.
Tweek is just a very good player but not top and Mew2King is always dropping out because of Melee and thats it in terms of representation.
Random Pocket Clouds are not on the level of the top players mains for obvious reasons and thus we won't see much of him at majors. You are still seeing a lot of Cloud at below majors level.

 

[Fenny]

If mario is top 5/3 then why don't more people use him at top level? Who else is there aside from Ally? Where are all of marios results coming from? I ask because i don't see him as being better than rosa, fox, mewtwo, or sonic.

Isn't choice of usage more of just a preference thing than anything else? Martha and Snake had more results in top level play than ICs and Olimar in Brawl iirc, despite being lower ranked in the tier list.

ANTi and Ally are pretty much carrying Mario in results at the top level, but even then that's enough to show Mario's strength as a character since they win big. Same with Marss and Nairo with ZSS, Larry with Fox etc.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

> Tweek, M2K and Rain solo-main Cloud
> Anti, Komorikiri and lately even Zero use him as a secondary
> "there are no top Cloud players"

lololollo olololololol

 

[Murlough]

If mario is top 5/3 then why don't more people use him at top level? Who else is there aside from Ally? Where are all of marios results coming from? I ask because i don't see him as being better than rosa, fox, mewtwo, or sonic.

How are you going to argue that Mario isn't top 3 or 5 because no one plays him then bring up Mewtwo being better who has only ONE top player.

 

[my_T]

We'll in the U.S. he has began falling off with his highest placements being around 5th-15th and only winning huge regionals thanks to Mew2King and some credit at CEO 2016 from Anti. In Japan however he does fairly well, with players like Komorikir and Maushi doing very well off compared to the U.S. Clouds.

Maushi is doing alright with cloud; he just recently popped up though so I would like to see some consistency first.

Komo's cloud is clearly the best but lets not forget that he uses sonic in tournament a good bit as well so it's hard to determine how good cloud really is when looking at komo's performance

 

[TTTTTsd]

> Tweek, M2K and Rain solo-main Cloud
> Anti, Komorikiri and lately even Zero use him as a secondary
> "there are no top Cloud players"

lololollo olololololol

Yeah I don't know how anyone can say we don't have any.

The only issue we've been having is that our Top Clouds are a lot less in number than most other chars and they're kinda spread far apart, but it's not a big deal. The character still does well but he does NOT have the results of a Top 3 character, I agree with you there.

He works best as a secondary.

Oh you also forgot MKLeo, he does notable things with Cloud too. Kid's really incredible.

Regardless, Cloud is not a Top 3 character right now (IMO) and that much I am certain of. I doubt he'll ever not be viable though, Limit is too strong of a comeback mechanic to ignore.

 

[DanGR]

It may seem easy to say this as a non-top player, but I strongly agree with Shaya that the U.S.' Cloud players really aren't playing the character correctly. I see huge deficits in movement, trapping, ledgeguarding, and general neutral play from U.S. Clouds. I think Nairo (again I agree with Shaya that Nairo's Cloud looks hella good) and MKLeo's Clouds are the two best examples we have about how Cloud should be played, even if Nairo's isn't the most polished at the moment, and they're both almost completely left out of discussions about the character. I wasn't surprised to hear MKLeo say so confidently that he sees Cloud as a counterpick to Rosalina. After all, the way he uses the character in neutral is leagues above every other Cloud I've ever seen.

 

[|RK|]

> Tweek, M2K and Rain solo-main Cloud
> Anti, Komorikiri and lately even Zero use him as a secondary
> "there are no top Cloud players"

lololollo olololololol

Being specific, they removed pockets from the equation (really more of secondaries tbh, but whatever) so no ZeRo, ANTi, or Komorikiri. Then they also said Tweek is more of a high level player, while M2K is top.

I imagine they're looking for top-level Cloud mains (on the same level that Ally uses Mario). Going with those qualifications, their analysis makes more sense.

Whether those qualifications are valid or not is another matter.

 

[EternalFlare]

Cloud's disadvantage state is too terrible to be a top 3 character.

Aside from having one of the most gimpable recoveries in the game, he has bad landing options. He can't shift momentum in the air like other top tiers, his only mixup is whether or not he's going to throw out a predictable attack once his double jump is gone. AC dair might be fairly safe on block but you can still whiff punish it either as he lands or by simply hitting him from the side. Also his weight and falling speed makes him combo food in general.

Results wise Komokiri is literally the only Cloud that gets top placings these days and he's arguably a dual main anyway. Not to mention he's underperformed in the US. MKLeo only uses Cloud for a few matchups.

Regardless if you count Komokiri, that's just one guy doing it big with the character. The same goes for Mewtwo who's much more consistent at nationals and yet no one is claiming he's top 1/2 as they do for Cloud.

I think there is an inherent Cloud bias because he's perceived as easy to play and does extremely well and is very popular at mid levels. In other words, chances are everyone in these forums has played competent Clouds if they play online due to his sheer popularity but might not have encountered any good Diddies/Sheiks/Sonics etc. At least from my experience, Cloud is way more popular than these characters on For Glory even though the former are significantly better characters imo.

 

[Nu~]

One thing I never understood is why Cloud players use FH Dair in nuetral as an approach.

Why would anyone want to use a move that telegraphed and counterable as an approach?

Why do people hold sheild as he's falling on them or run away from the attack instead of b-airing/f-airing him out of it? Or just punish his landing with a quick projectile.

Cloud has so many better options than this...

 

[my_T]

How are you going to argue that Mario isn't top 3 or 5 because no one plays him then bring up Mewtwo being better who has only ONE top player.

Nowhere in my post did i specify why I felt that rosa, sonic, mewtwo, and fox were better.

In comparison to mario all four of those characters have a significantly better neutral and scarier tools overall. I really can't think of a reason to main mario over the four characters i mentioned unless im just a mario fan

I just noticed that all the top players that are having a character crisis or looking for/have secondaries are not looking at mario. I've seen Void pull out fox and mew2, Vinnie, ANTi, and Aba have rosa, Komo has sonic, Leo and many others have a cloud. I'm just curious as to why nobody really ops for mario as a main or a secondary at top level, especially considering that he's easy to use. Ally is the only solo main. ANTi's usage of mario seems like more of a secondary.

Like i said, im just curious as to why i dont see more of him at top level

 

[Thinkaman]

~ Gheb ~ "all you have to do to beat cloud is not jump."

I may have forgotten this, but was there a discussion about little Mac vs cloud before?

Cloud has the most robust and practical motive to platform camp Mac.

Normally platform camping is sort of a hollow threat--it only applies when Mac is losing, and Mac actually does have pretty decent options on Battlefield and Lylat to deal with it, much less T&C where he usually couldn't care less. Timing mac out usually isn't actually plausible on these stages for most characters. So running away to platform camp Mac isn't actually a slam dunk strategy, because there's ordinarily no actual endgame.

Cloud has an endgame to platform stalling, called "I exclusively fight you with limit." And Cloud's limit options are spooky enough to upset the calculus of Mac's typical footsie tango.

That's what makes the matchup scary to me on paper, but I'd be curious what @Solreth has to say.

 

[EternalFlare]

One thing I never understood is why Cloud players use FH Dair in nuetral as an approach.

Why would anyone want to use a move that telegraphed and counterable as an approach?

Why do people hold sheild as he's falling on them or run away from the attack instead of b-airing/f-airing him out of it? Or just punish his landing with a quick projectile.

Cloud has so many better options than this...

Full hop Dair can auto cancel, that's why. So early on it seemed really good.

Nowadays people have realized they can whiff punish it or interrupt it from the side as you said instead of blocking it so autopilot Clouds get blown up.

Though to be fair, I can still seeing it being a good strategy versus characters with slow aerials and/or poor mobility options.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Clouds full hop dair is a brickwall tactic. A trick designed to weed out players that dont know how to to deal with it. Many players rely on brickwalls. They are staples of set play.

 

[Nu~]

...Why is it that the first thing that popped up when I looked up "what is the brickwall concept in fighting games" was this:
http://smashboards.com/threads/brickwalls-and-traps-the-keys-to-victory.183816/

lol


Well awesome, I learned something new. Good stuff my man!

 

[blackghost]

If mario is top 5/3 then why don't more people use him at top level? Who else is there aside from Ally? Where are all of marios results coming from? I ask because i don't see him as being better than rosa, fox, mewtwo, or sonic.

Did you bring up results being carried by one player then list Rosa and mewtwo as counter examples? lost you there.

 

[FeelMeUp]

to be frank, multiple characters are being carried(for the most part) by one person.
that's not really a fantastic argument anymore.

 

[Emblem Lord]

...Why is it that the first thing that popped up when I looked up "what is the brickwall concept in fighting games" was this:
http://smashboards.com/threads/brickwalls-and-traps-the-keys-to-victory.183816/

lol


Well awesome, I learned something new. Good stuff my man!

Emblem Lord is one of the last High Old Ones.

You should heed his words.

Or just keep ignoring me and come to realize things months later like you guys have been doing since this game dropped.

Whatever works for you I guess.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Been messing with a bunch of characters to see how to step dash, and while messing with Zard and Bowser, I noticed that when I flick the c stick up to cancel their run (cuz I use bidou now), instead of walking, they go back to running. So, I experimented some more and it really dawned upon me just how short their skid and turnaround animations are. I was not only able to chain a bunch of run cancels in a rapid quick session, but I found out that due to their skid animation, they essentially have the same amount of options running as they do walking. Tilts, smashes, PPs (don't pronounce that), all that.

Crazy stuff.

EDIT: oh and bowser's burst range has never looked so broken with walk -> c stick up -> attack (bidou setup still).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You are right about Mewtwo vs. Lucario (I wish that was rare here ) where Mewtwo quite literally shuts down all of Lucario's strengths and is very likely his worst matchup. Yes, Mewtwo will die ridiculously early to an aura bair blah blah but so does everyone else with little difference. Aside from that, I can't imagine anything notable going on for Lucario in the MU:

• The combination of a similar projectile and a very usable reflector is something no one else possesses. That heavily limits the usability of Aura Sphere in neutral game, getting KO's and makes fully charged ones just as dangerous to Lucario as to Mewtwo.
  
• Fair and dtilt (+ Shadow Ball / Reflect) wall out Lucario incredibly well. Sure, Lucario can beat his fair with nair but it's a trade he cannot afford and he isn't fast enough both movement and frame data wise to deal with dtilt or catch retreating fairs.
  
• Mewtwo has pretty effortless ways to get KO's on Lucario before he gets to high aura. Usmash is very good at catching shorthop anything, fair cannot be challenged at all, Shadow Ball is stronk and then there's his ridiculous runspeed and uthrow from which Lucario cannot escape with such a big difference in runspeed and the threat of other kill options from a run.
  
• Lucario's very potent uthrow combo and trap game doesn't work on Mewtwo very well at all since his airdodge allows him to escape the usually frame tight followups without putting himself at much risk since he doesn't get momentum locked by it.
• Lucario doesn't have the speed to punish most of Mewtwo's moveset when spaced correctly and when he does it's usually either dash attack which isn't really that scary in this matchup. Mewtwo is able to reset to neutral pretty easily and continue with his shenanigans.
  
• Mewtwo can edgeguard Lucario deep and threaten his otherwise good and pretty safe recovery.

I'm pretty optimistic about Lucario's other top tier matchups (aside from Cloud being a probable -2) but Mewtwo is the ultimate counterpick against him. It's at least an easy -2 but -3 probably describes it better when the Mewtwo knows the MU well. The thought of getting an aura bair or FP grab are the only things keeping me sane and I'll be sure as hell to fish for them (god heavens SH airdodge -> frame 1 landing FP grab is a thing).

His worst match up is Ness or Fox, I've asked around and researched a bit on that

Mewtwo might do well but Fox and Ness just do far worse in terms of shut down.